Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:48: One word to describe the year

00:08:04: One experiment

00:15:12: One gremlin that has been kept caged

00:21:13: One mistake made and what was learned

00:26:39: One win outside of work

00:30:30: One memorable moment

00:32:20: One example of having learned a lot

00:34:03: One person who's made a difference to your development

00:39:54: One knot to untangle in 2024

00:44:07: One opportunity that you're looking forward to next year

00:47:03: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And you're listening to the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly podcast where we dive into the ins, outs, ups and downs of work, and share some insights, some ideas and some tools to help give you a little bit more confidence and control over your career development.  And this is one of our final episodes of the year, and we thought we would do a year in review; well, we thought we'd help you do a year in review. 

And what we are going to do in this episode today is talk through some questions that will be hopefully helpful prompts for you and your development, but we are also going to answer them.  So, whether you are a fan of the Squiggly Queers podcast, and thank you if you are, reviews are welcome, that would be a lovely Christmas gift; but if you're a fan and you kind of want to know what's been going on behind the scenes over the last 12 months, or whether you're brand new and you just think this would be a good time to do a bit of a reflection, then hopefully this will be a useful podcast for you.

Sarah Ellis: And two resources that we wanted to mention before we get started, we've got a new HBR article out which talks about how to review your year, so that's worth a read.  Some of what we're going to talk about today is in there, but there's some different ideas and some new ideas in there too, so I think they're quite complementary and they're distinctive and different enough that they're both worth your time, I hope.  And Helen, let's give credit where credit is due, has created a really useful, quick way of reviewing your year and previewing next year into a downloadable tool, and also has done some really good different options for you, depending on whether you are more visual or whether you like to write things down.  

And also, if you want to see some interesting photos of Helen, it's worth downloading because she shares her four photos of the year. So, links to both of those will be in the show notes, but you will also find them in the free toolkit on our website, which is just amazingif.com.  And as always, if you ever can't find anything, just email us; we're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Helen Tupper: So for this episode, Sarah has come up with the questions that we are going to be reflecting on to review our year, and we have not shared our responses with each other.  So, you're going to be hearing it at the same time that we hear our answers, which should make for some interesting chats.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, because it's been an interesting year!  I mean, we've done a few of these episodes, right, where we've like talked about our year; I think this is the first time where we ever had to have a pre-chat about the episode, "Do we do it?  How do we do it?  How honest are we?"  And we decided honest, but equally we thought about some of the questions so it didn't get, I don't know, too bleak.

Helen Tupper: I was thinking, I think probably this might be our third year of doing this at the end of the year, and I think I'd actually quite like to listen to them sequentially to see what was on our mind at the time.

Sarah Ellis: I don't like listening to that!  Probably tells you something about my attitude for these questions!  So let's start with the first one, which I think we have done before and I do think it is quite helpful.  Often, you talked about both reviewing and previewing.  I remember at the start of the year you were very clear, you were like, "I want this year to be about growth and good times".  So, if you were describing your year in one word, has it been growth and/or good times, Helen, or are you going for a different word?

Helen Tupper: I'm going for a different word, Sarah.

Sarah Ellis: Sure.

Helen Tupper: My word of the year is, "conflicted"!

Sarah Ellis: Okay.  I mean, it's better than mine.

Helen Tupper: My reasoning behind the word conflicted is because I have, I feel like there's just been a lot going on.  So, I've been conflicted in times when I've wanted to be happy like, "Oh, that's going really well".  But then there's been stuff going on around me, stuff with you, which I'm sure we'll come on to, which I think has been a bit hard, and it's really hard to carry those two emotions.  You know when someone is going through something really difficult, but then you've got something else that's kind of really positive that's happened.  I think it's very hard to reconcile those two emotions, so I felt conflicted about that.

I felt conflicted about work and family priorities at times, where there's just been a lot going on and feeling like, "I know I can't give these things equal energy, so where do I place it?"  I think that's kind of been quite tricky.  So yes, just not bad, just a sort of tension throughout the year.  I've felt this kind of tension in, how am I feeling and where am I spending my time, is kind of a bit of a constant.  I don't think I've always made the right decisions and sometimes it's been a bit difficult, and it's probably made it a bit harder to enjoy some of the moments and celebrate some of the successes.  There you go; conflicted.  What's yours Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: So, I wrote, "hard"!

Helen Tupper: Right!

Sarah Ellis: But I did write in brackets, "and grateful", and I suppose to your point, that's the sort of conflicted thing.  And so, it does show that we're probably feeling the same, probably because our lives are very intertwined.  We're basically sometimes partners in all sorts of different ways, more so than we sometimes are without actual partners, because you can't help it because we are friends anyway and we were friends first and we run a company together, and lots of things going on.  And so I think for me, and I think I have mentioned it previously on the podcast before, but my dad died at the start of the year, at the end of January. 

He hadn't been well, but it was still unexpected and obviously incredibly hard when you lose anyone, and certainly someone so close to you.  And so, it's really hard that it dominates you, it dominates your days, it dominates your thinking, it means you thinking about your family in lots of different ways that perhaps you weren't before. But I did get to the, "and grateful", because I also think the reason I've made it through what has probably been the most difficult year of my life is lots of the things that I'm really grateful for, so the work that I do, the friends that I have, you, my partner, my 6-year-old.  And so, I think sometimes the hard times remind you what you are very, very grateful for and the difference that that makes, because I can imagine an alternative reality quite easily, where lots of those things you're grateful for aren't there, and then I don't know how you'd cope.

Helen Tupper: It's just hard.

Sarah Ellis: It would just be hard, yeah.  So, I didn't get to only hard, but it has felt hard and you know, you weren't very well in August and that also felt hard, and I do remember having a conversation with you going, "But you do need to be okay, because I do think otherwise I am not going to be okay, Helen"!  And I was like, it felt like there's quite a lot of pressure on both of us, just being like, you know, the whole stress-bucket thing that you learn about when you're becoming a mental health first aider, I've talked about it before.  Essentially, the idea is that there is only so much stress we can all take until it overflows and then you're like, "Yeah, that's it, I'm done essentially", I'm either burnt out or, I don't know, just incredibly unhappy.  And I think this year, it sort of teetered quite high, but there was just enough almost valves that you could release along the way.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I get it.  There's been some amazing happy moments, like we both turned 40 this year, I had a massive one; probably not you, but obviously I had parties.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you felt happy for about four days!

Helen Tupper: I had these amazing parties.  I remember in the middle of the year being like, "Oh, I had this festival in my garden.  I had my friends all over".

Sarah Ellis: I came!

Helen Tupper: But in my head I was like, "And I'm going to have lung surgery in two months".  You know this constant conflict between, "This is amazing, this is awful"?

Sarah Ellis: It's difficult, isn't it, as well, because you also almost feel a little bit guilty I think sometimes for finding things hard.  We both feel that.  We talked about guilt on the podcast quite recently, where you sort of go, "Oh, but loads of people have it loads harder".  Or I go, "It's hard, but not hard compared to lots of people". 

And I think in some ways, you are allowed to find things hard, but I also find that a bit of a tension because you'll have some people going like, "Oh, they have no flexibility in what they do", or they don't enjoy their jobs, or they're working with someone who's a nightmare, or other personal things that are much, much harder than what I've had to deal with.  And so that creates conflict and tension, doesn't it?  So, yeah, I mean I think we both went, "It's not a year we want to repeat, is it?" let's be honest.

Helen Tupper: No, we'll just put 2023 in its box!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, move on to 2024.

Helen Tupper: One experiment, and what have you discovered, Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: So, I actually really enjoyed, we had a week where we did a podcast episode on how AI could support you with your career and career development, and I think I started that quite sceptical and being like, "Oh, I'm not sure".

Helen Tupper: Never; Sarah's a sceptic?!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I never sketched it.  I'm not sure how useful this will be yet, I'm not sure the tech's quite there, but I got really into it.  You know when you go down a rabbit hole and I was like, "I'm really enjoying this", and quite a lot of it is better than you imagine and it does show you as well that playing with stuff and taking some time to do that really helps you to figure out what's useful and what's not.  And so, when I think about experiment, it's not one specific experiment.  I think it was that week ended up being a catalyst for me thinking, "I could be better because of this AI". 

And so, don't be scared of it, or don't put your head in the sand and hope someone else is going to figure things out for you.  You need to have a go with this. Recently, I also experimented with putting some of that AI into my meetings.  Some of it is really clunky still, but I think as long as you accept it's clunky and you're like, "Clearly it's not perfect yet", I do think you sort of start to realise, "Okay, well why would I be using that in the first place; what is it that I'm hoping for?  And if it's not this, then what else could it be?"  And everybody's talking about AI at the moment, aren't they, and I think that can feel a bit overwhelming, when it's on the front of lots of magazines.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, you feel like you're behind already.

Sarah Ellis: And there's quite a lot of, like people use, inevitably, not very simple and straightforward descriptions.  Even like the word, "Generative AI", I'm like, "They're not making it easy for everybody, are they?"  You know when people are quite fearful about their jobs and stuff?  I'm like, yeah, I think people quite enjoy sometimes making things sound lofty and inaccessible, whereas actually a lot of it is okay, you can just go and have a go with it. 

And so I've started some experiments I think in 2023 on that, and now I think I want to be even more intentional about how AI could help us as an organisation to support more people to make careers better for everyone.  You start to sense that the tech, which is helpful that we've not had to build it, that people are building tech that could really help us to do a better job of what we're here to do and our kind of mission.  And so, I'm excited about more experimenting in that area.  What about you?

Helen Tupper: I think an experiment that I reflect positively on is the sprint that we did in August.

Sarah Ellis: That was my number two option.

Helen Tupper: And the experiment there was just a different format for the podcast.  So, that was 20 episodes, each episode was 7 minutes, and it was this idea of creating learning momentum.  And we had no idea.  I mean, we were a bit like, "Is anyone going to listen in August?"  We really didn't know if the format was going to work.

Sarah Ellis: It turns out lots of people are going to listen in August.

Helen Tupper: Lots of people.  Thousands and thousands and thousands of people signed up to sprint with us in August, and that was actually when I was having lung surgery, so it gave me an awful lot of energy when I wasn't really feeling brilliant actually, to see that sprint connecting lots of people with career development; it was a very positive thing, so I think that's probably part of why I was like, "Oh, I like doing that experiment".  

But also, it just kind of re-energised me about what could we do with this podcast.  And so to Sarah's point, how does an experiment that you've done this year make you think about what you're going to do next year?  We have got a workshop in January where we are going to be thinking about, what could we do with the podcast next year to make it even more useful for people, even more relevant for their role?  So, by the way, if you've got any ideas, email us!  But it's just, I think it's just given me the confidence to sort of play around with the format a little bit, to sort of bring something new to people with a podcast.

Sarah Ellis: I have quite mixed feelings about that experiment, because I think the outcome of it was very positive in terms of, it made learning last, it created a community, lots of things that we were trying to do.  It's also quite interesting, I think, as a reflection how much energy experimenting takes, because I really remember the conversation that we had, which was, "Oh, maybe we pause the podcast" in August; you're having lung surgery, a lot has been happening.  I think at that point in the year, I was really feeling it. 

I think everything was feeling quite overwhelming and we went from, "We might pause the podcast" to, "We're going to do 20 episodes" and I've got some very distinct memories of that day and finding that very difficult when we were trying to do a lot. You know when you talk about being conflicted, I still can't decide if it was the right thing or not, because I think I get that the experiment worked, but I think it tipped me right to the edge to the extent where it was the first time I think I've ever felt like almost oh I'm going to have to -- we were recording those sprints, and I was thinking, "I wonder if anyone notices if they listen back", some of those sprints we recorded on the day where I nearly felt I was like, "I'm just going to have to go home, I don't think I can keep doing this".  And I think I just about found my way through it, but I'm not sure how good it was for me. 

So, I think it's quite an interesting one. That's something I always find quite hard to work out is like, "Oh, but I want to do the thing.  I want to do the experiment", but you know when you're like, "But at what cost?"  So, I just think it's just worth when you're -- I think experiments are incredibly useful because they give you like permission to fail, you have a clear hypothesis, you can do things quickly, and we did all of those things.  But I think it's just also recognising, sometimes I wonder if there's a right time for experimenting.

Helen Tupper: Yes, I totally agree with that.  I also think it's really interesting, Sarah and I are very different and most of the time it's actually quite complementary, so I'm a doer, Sarah's a thinker.  There are times I think under pressure when it is not complementary, which is under pressure --

Sarah Ellis: We basically stopped talking to each other that day!

Helen Tupper: Well no, but under pressure you go, "Cancel, stop things".  You're like, "Do less, stop it, don't do any more".  And under pressure I go, "Go faster, do more".  So, I think like years ago when we did our TED Talk and we were under pressure to come up with an idea.  What was my one?  Like, "Let's do 100 ideas in 18 minutes".

Sarah Ellis: You were like, "We're going to do an idea a minute", and I was just like, "No!"

Helen Tupper: Sarah was like, "We're just not going to do a TED Talk.  No, we're just not going to do it, we should just stop doing this right now" and I'd be like, "No, what we're going to do is cram more ideas than anyone has ever done into a TED Talk".  And it's just interesting I think in those, and almost I feel like someone has to win.  It's a very hard thing because we either stop, or I push it forward.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you can't have it both ways.

Helen Tupper: You can't have it both.  And so --

Sarah Ellis: I wouldn't position it like that to me if I were you, because I mean I hate the idea of losing.  So, if you're like, "Oh, so you're basically telling me in that situation I lost", I'm like, "Hm, interesting!"

Helen Tupper: But many people gained, many thousands of people gained.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I'm not sure that would be good positioning for me.  I suppose maybe what you could do, it's so hard to do though, isn't it?  In those moments, it's so hard to spot.  You could say, "Well, is there a middle ground?"  We're sort of assuming there isn't a middle ground, but there probably would have been.  We probably still could have done a sprint that was fewer days, we probably could have said, "Maybe we do a sprint, but it's 10 days not 20", and that could make quite a big difference.  So yeah, it's interesting, it's a hard one to resolve, isn't it?

Helen Tupper: One gremlin that you have kept caged?

Sarah Ellis: I liked this question.  I like the ones I could answer easier.

Helen Tupper: And for people that might be new to the podcast, when we talk about gremlins, this is confidence gremlins, so kind of beliefs that hold you back, almost like a negative narrative that you sometimes carry into your work.  Which is a gremlin that you have kept caged?

Sarah Ellis: This was one actually that made me feel proud.  I think when you think about caging gremlins, you feel good about yourself.  So, when you're thinking about this, if you're listening, hopefully this will make you feel kind of positive about your progress, even though it's always hard to cage gremlins. 

So, I had numbers and money gremlin.  So, I feel like this year, I've taken a lot more accountability and responsibility around lots of things to do with numbers and money essentially, and so the way that that shows up, I tried to be really specific, I feel more confident asking questions, I feel more confident asking people for what I need to make sure that I understand, so things like writing stuff down really helps me.  And also, I feel less apologetic about sometimes my lack of capability.

So, I think previously I would have been like, "I'm not good at this, and this is sort of my problem", whereas what I have seen is that actually by just asking the questions, not being afraid to do that, sometimes they're useful, not always, sometimes I just don't know and I just need some help.  But I have seen examples where I'm like, "That is a good question, Sarah".  And actually, like that thing about you're starting from scratch, you don't really know and perhaps you don't understand, taking people back to basics is useful.  And so, I feel a lot less sort of apologetic about my lack of ability in that area and more like, "Well no, I can be useful and I can keep that gremlin caged" in a way that I think I've never felt before.

Helen Tupper: I don't know, I think your questions actually are more than taking it back to basics.  I've definitely seen you ask some very direct questions because of, I don't know, more of an interest or more of a confidence, I don't know, but that have spotted things that other people haven't.  So, not just about going back to basics, actually like a question that actually other people haven't thought or spotted, so I think it's really, really useful, I've definitely seen it.

Sarah Ellis: It's all really hard, right?  Everyone listening, you should know that it's always effort for me.  I always am still sort of having those conversations thinking, "I'd rather not".  You know, because going into your courage zone or really staying in learner mindset.

Helen Tupper: It's like a deep-breath moment, isn't it?  It's like, "Here I go".

Sarah Ellis: I just think, "Oh God, I can't really be bothered", and it does always take a lot of like -- but you know it's worth it.  What about you?

Helen Tupper: I think I have a sort of confidence gremlin about, it's sort of a success-related one, which in my head for a long time I've gone like, "Leading is succeeding", and I'll come back to the conflict with this because being CEO doesn't really help over the business.  But I've had, "Leading is succeeding".  So, my corporate career, I wanted to lead the team I wanted to lead the drive forward, all that kind of stuff.  And therefore, if I'm not leading, I'm not succeeding.  What I think I've got better at is almost reframing in my mind that listening is how I help other people succeed.  

So, "Leading is succeeding" has sort of been quite a selfish mantra, If I lead, I succeed". Whereas I think I've sort of caged that gremlin and gone, "Well actually, if it's not about you leading, what if you don't need to lead?  What if you don't need to be the person who runs that thing or drives that discussion or makes things happen; and actually, what if the role that you play is in listening and asking questions?" and sort of not taking a back seat, because that sounds really negative. 

But what I've really tried to consciously do is let other people lead a situation.  It might be you, it might be you in a meeting, it could be someone else in a meeting, but I think even in our business two years ago I would have been like, "What's the point of me being in this meeting?  I've added absolutely no value".  I almost would have felt quite defensive, like if I'm not co-leading or leading, then what's the point of me being here or I feel like I've contributed less or all that kind of stuff.  Whereas, I think now I can sit in silence much more comfortably in a meeting and I do not think that affects the quality of my contribution. I think before, I would have gone, if I haven't said as much or if I haven't done as much as other people, then that doesn't reflect well on what I'm bringing to this discussion.  But I kind of go, "Do you know what, I don't need to", and maybe I don't need to do it, and also it's not the most viable thing to do.  I can sit -- and I have measured this.

Sarah Ellis: Of course you have!

Helen Tupper: So, I have used AI to measure the percentage that I have talked in a meeting --

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I remember.

Helen Tupper: -- and the extent to which other people talk in meetings.  And it's made me realise that you can lead in different ways.  Whereas, I think my confidence gremlin before used to be like, leading is the person that sets a direction for the discussion, leading is the person that -- always doing it in the same way.  Whereas, I think I'm trying to lead in different ways, lead by listening a lot, lead by supporting other people more, and not feeling like success is always me filling that space, which is quite a different way of me approaching it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I have definitely noticed that your listening/talking ratio has changed. 

I really see you, you're much quieter in a meeting.  What's interesting is that you still manage to be energetic.  You still bring energy, you also create a lot of clarity, because I think where you add value as a leader is in creating clarity.  And I don't think creating clarity always comes from talking the most.  I suspect the more you listen, the more clarity you can create.  So, maybe that's a different way of thinking about it as well.  And I really see you're so good at that.  

Conversations can go in different directions and we could be talking around something, and it's not that you're going, "That's not useful", because we often need to have those conversations, but then you are good at going, "This is what's most important now, or these are the questions that we most need to answer", or just make sure we don't miss things along the way.

Helen Tupper: I'm not good at -- I can think about so meetings where I'm bad at it, I still lead by leading in a traditional way and I'm like, "Oh, I wonder why".  So, something to reflect on a little bit more.

Sarah Ellis: Should we talk mistakes?

Helen Tupper: Let's do it.

Sarah Ellis: So, one mistake we've made and what did we learn, and we actually do have a mechanism for this in Amazing If, which you might have heard us talk about before.  So, we use mistake moments.  So, when you make a mistake, ideally that day you share that mistake with everybody in the company, which always feels a bit like, "Ugh!"  You don't overplay the mistake, we don't want to magnify them in our minds.  What we do talk about is, "What did we learn?"  And I do find having some sort of if-and-then thing like, "If I make a mistake, then I share that mistake with everyone", I think you're just so much more likely to learn from them because you're looking for the learning straight away, but also for somebody like me as a thinker, it does help me to move on from them faster.  And I also quite enjoy doing a little search, I bet you did the same on Teams, mistake moments.

Helen Tupper: I didn't!

Sarah Ellis: Did you not?

Helen Tupper: I didn't!

Sarah Ellis: I was looking, because I was like, "I don't want to have recency bias", because I think we did that on the podcast recently.  So, I was like, "Oh, I really wanted to think about it".  So, what was your mistake?

Helen Tupper: Well, I've got three.  I'm going to do them really quickly because I know this podcast can't go --

Sarah Ellis: Really?

Helen Tupper: I know you said one, but I've got one silly one that really bothered me.

Sarah Ellis: Oh yeah?

Helen Tupper: Getting my hair cut short at the start of the year.

Sarah Ellis: Helen, that's not a real mistake!

Helen Tupper: No, it really bothered me.  But the reason it was a mistake was because I was overly influenced by the opinion of my mother!  You know when you're like, "I'm supposed to be a grown-up", and my mum's opinion about my appearance affected me.  So I was like, "That's a mistake", don't be childlike.

Sarah Ellis: I'm glad the hair's gone long again.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, the hair's long again.  So, my other ones, sticking with learning.  So, there are two things, two learning moments this year that I could have made last better.  That's really bad English, but basically could have stuck a bit better.  So, we did mental health first aid training and that was an investment of time.  And I think, "Do you know what?  I've not gone back to that", I've not thought about, "What am I doing differently as a result of that training?" and I think I should go back to that and do that.  Also, Sarah and I did a meditation course, timing of which was not ideal for some of the things we've talked about, but I haven't stuck at that.  I still do it, but inconsistently.  And I feel like that was quite a big investment, it's quite a big commitment, and it definitely resonated with me more than Sarah, and I feel like I want to do it more, that's the thing and I need to find time.  So, I feel like I should have stuck at that.

Sarah Ellis: You messaged me this morning, "Oh, I'm meditating", and I was like, "Is that just because we're doing the podcast so that you can say that you've done it?"

Helen Tupper: I also forgot my headphones on the train and I was like, "Okay, I've got 20 minutes before I get to Marylebone.  Great, that's the amount of time you've got to meditate for".  And my other one was, I feel like I've dropped my reading days.  That was a mistake this year and that is definitely something I could do different.  So, reading days for me are like a dedicated day where I do not open my laptop and I take a few books to a quiet place and I literally Post-it note, highlight and it really stimulates my thinking.  Sarah, I think you are much better continual reader than me.  I find reading, I engage with it more when I'm kind of dedicated and I've dropped my reading days.  So, three mistakes for me.  There you go, we're supposed to do one.

Sarah Ellis: Mine was, I worked on something, so we were working on a potential kind of collaboration project to write an article about something, and I was working on it with somebody else, so not with Helen, and actually was enjoying it.  I was like, opportunity to collaborate with someone different.  It was actually, almost the process was giving me a lot of energy, just this person was very different to Helen but also very different to me, and I was like, "Oh, this is just fascinating", and we sometimes don't get the chance to do those things very often.  The mistake I made is I realised it was something that Helen did need to be involved in but I've involved her way too late, and then it actually created challenges in terms of, it created a bit of friction for us, which actually we have got better and better at going, "It's created friction", we fix it fast.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, actually acknowledge the friction.  I think previously, that would have been much harder.  I felt really bad actually, I felt really bad in that moment, but I think I got past that much better.  I could let it go a bit better, because I didn't like the idea of you not feeling involved when you wanted to be.  And it feels unusual because 90% of the time, I sort of back our judgment.  You know, we know when to involve each other, we know what that looks like. 

Where I think we talked about the learning from mistakes -- this is where I think mistake moments are really helpful -- is more it prompted us both to ask the question, "Okay, what did we learn from that?"  And actually, it was just about being really explicit where we do need to be together, like where are we better together; where most of the time is it kind of okay?  Because we often do have to progress things individually. I do think it's quite funny, I do really remember for about two weeks, we both got a bit intense with each other being like, "Oh, do you want to be involved in this?"  And I remember you being like, "Do you want to be involved in this?" 

And I was like, "No!"  I never want to be involved really in most things!  And then, I think we were both a bit like, because we were surprised by it, you know sometimes when you're surprised by something, then I think you sort of go the opposite direction.  And then, I think we just actually re-found our flow and went, "Oh actually, do you know what, it's just that anything in these three areas are so strategically important to us, we've both got to be involved, and if we're not, you've got to say it out loud".  So, actually there is something we're working on at the moment where you're taking much more of a lead and it would be strategically important, but the difference is we've had the conversation to go, "Okay, we actually physically both don't have the time to do this, but we feel okay about it", so you flagged it, like the fast flag. So, that was just memorable for me because I think I actually felt really pleased with how we both learnt from it and moved forward fast, which is not something I would find easy to do.  So, one win outside of work, have we got any wins outside of work?

Helen Tupper: Yes, but I was trying to work out, is this outside of work?

Sarah Ellis: Oh, go on!

Helen Tupper: Well I don't know, is EY, Ernst & Young Winning Women, is that --

Sarah Ellis: No!

Helen Tupper: Oh, okay.

Sarah Ellis: I mean, you're going to have to say what that is for now.

Helen Tupper: I won a place on Ernst & Young's Winning Women programme, which is exciting.  Is that not outside of work?

Sarah Ellis: No, absolutely not!

Helen Tupper: Okay.  Marketing Society Fellowship, is that outside of work?

Sarah Ellis: No! Helen Tupper: Oh, gosh.

Sarah Ellis: I mean, something outside of your --

Helen Tupper: I had a lot of parties this year, and I've loved them.

Sarah Ellis: Well, there you go, that's better. Helen Tupper: Okay, great.  What's yours?

Sarah Ellis: My win was, so I have always been good at walking, so walking to take a break, walking to clear my brain, just random walks.  But my exercise has sort of been limited to that for the past couple of years.  Whereas this year, I have discovered new exercise and doing something called Reformer Pilates, which is with a machine essentially, and kind of Bar Pilates, which is actually just incredibly hard and feels like a HIIT class.  But I've really committed to that and in most weeks, I've done one or two classes, and I think that has really helped me this year.  You know when you just -- somebody said to me actually, "It's almost not the positive endorphins you get from exercise that matters, it's what you're missing when you don't exercise".  

It's kind of like the opposite that's the problem, and I think I have just seen and reminded myself this year that actually doing some exercise that you broadly enjoy, I'm always a bit scared of one of the classes because it's quite hard, but that you broadly enjoy, I just always feel so much better and I think my brain is better, I think my work is better. When I first had my little boy, Max, I did some running for a bit, which I hate, but I did it because that was the only exercise I could do.  Then I think actually, funnily enough, the happier I got the less exercise I did in terms of my general life, but now I think I'm at a point where I'm like, "Well, I can fit some exercise into my week", but you've got to choose to do it in a way that works, and I don't think walking quite counts.  I think I walk for different reasons, not really for exercising, and you know the whole body-mind connection, I do believe that that matters.  And so, it's just actually been quite a big part of my year.  It wasn't there before, and I've even got a little bit, dare I say it, of community --

Helen Tupper: Oh, my gosh!

Sarah Ellis: -- as in, I know the founder of the studio, she does it as a side squiggle, she's got a day job.  I recognise some of the people and I don't know, it has a quite --

Helen Tupper: Very anti-Sarah!

Sarah Ellis: I know!

Helen Tupper: She made some connections with people!

Sarah Ellis: I know, which does feel, yeah, this is what's happening to me, and I don't like it!  So, it's not quite as anonymous as I would usually go for, but I think it's been really good for me.

Helen Tupper: I think that exercise is quite a Sarah feature.  One of my defining memories of Sarah when we first -- actually, it was way before we were friends because I was like, "I'm never going to be friends with you", was when we were at university within our first week or two, we went on this what was like a retreat to all get to know each other better --

Sarah Ellis: Awful!

Helen Tupper: -- which was mainly for socialising and drinking and having fun.  But I just remember there was this first day or two when some people decided to go for this random run.  I remember thinking -- and I just remember you going off.  There was you and there was Claire, I remember you, and then there was some other people and you went off for this run and I was like, "That's crazy, we could be all drinking!"  But I mean that is still the reality of the things that we probably choose to do in groups of people.  But yeah, I do feel like exercise is a feature of you.  So, when it's not there, you know when you're not doing netball or you're not doing something, there's not a good reason why, like there's something going on, there's too much work or you're too --

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and you know when you realise you're like, "Oh, I've sat at my desk all day and then all night", almost like, yes with some breaks in between, but I think that's such an easy trap to fall into.  And you know the whole blurred boundaries thing and I love working in such a flexible way, and that can sometimes end up showing up as just working all the time, and I think it stopped me from doing that.

Helen Tupper: A moment that was memorable.  I went through my diary for this.

Sarah Ellis: I did, but I was like, "Oh, I wonder if we'll have the same one".

Helen Tupper: I went with 10 Downing Street.

Sarah Ellis: Me too!  Because also, how often do you go to 10 Downing Street?

Helen Tupper: I'd forgotten about it though.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, no, I hadn't because that's where I met Pinky who came on the podcast.

Helen Tupper: Well, I was like, "It is recency bias".  So, I had to go through my diary from the start the year and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, that was amazing and memorable".

Sarah Ellis: And we thought it was a scam.  So, we got this letter saying, "We'd like to invite you to Downing Street.  I think it was International Women's Day, wasn't it?

Helen Tupper: Word document.

Sarah Ellis: It was a word document.

Helen Tupper: With like a clipart logo!

Sarah Ellis: It didn't look that official.  I honestly saw it and I was like, "Okay, well that's not a real thing".

Helen Tupper: I googled the phone number to make sure that it wasn't going to ask us for money, and I was like, "No, it does look like the Downing Street dashboard number"!

Sarah Ellis: And it's one of those things where you're like, "It's not really a real thing".  I think there are other things I feel much prouder of, but I think it's the fact we got to do it together I think matters to me, and it feels really unique and it's iconic.  We probably needed it in that moment in our year.  I want to say March, because of course it was International Women's Day, so it would have been March.  So, I was like, probably quite good timing for us, and it was just one of those things where you're like, this is something unexpected that just makes you feel good, because you'd been selected because you were running a female business, I think.  And we got to meet some interesting people, and my favourite bit was, we actually got to take a picture outside the door.  And I never like having my picture taken, but that picture I was like, "That feels like a really special moment".

Helen Tupper: I remember it was a really rainy day.

Sarah Ellis: It was really rainy, yeah.  We saw Rishi Sunak for five minutes.  He came in and sort of did his thing, and met some really interesting women who ran loads of interesting companies.  So, yeah, it was just one of those things where you're like, I like the unexpected stuff along the way that we get to do.

Helen Tupper: An example of when you've learned a lot.

Sarah Ellis: Go on, you go first.

Helen Tupper: So, I think it's a little bit hard to talk about this one, because there's some things we can't say yet, some things that are coming next year.  But there was a writing thing that we were doing this year, and so I'll try and do it without giving too much away.  Sarah and I were thinking, we'd like to write another what I'll say is the big book, another kind of big book like Squiggly and like You Coach You.  We really care about making books useful and unique, and so we were trying to really find the idea.  I think on reflection, we were trying to force the idea.  We were going back and forth over lots of notes and lots of WhatsApps and, "Should we write about this, and should we write about that?" and it wasn't quite clicking. Then, what we did was another writing project, soon to be released, which was much more creative without any pressure.  And it was Sarah and me, I mean being together in her garden. 

And this project without the same amount of pressure felt more fun and it felt more creative and as a result of that process, we kind of unexpectedly came up with the idea for the next big book.  All of this will be revealed very soon everybody, I'm sorry I can't be more specific.  But the thing that I learned was, when you are trying to force ideas, it often doesn't work.  And putting yourself in a creative space without the pressure, you know we often talk about play, and actually just Sarah and my brains getting together with just, "Oh, what if, and how could we, and have you seen this?" I feel like that's just where the good stuff comes. So, what I learned was, I think that taking the pressure away is important sometimes and just having space to play, and putting our brains together on something and just sort of seeing where it gets us, but without us always having to come up with the best idea.  Finding time for that I think is important for how we support Squiggly Careers.

Sarah Ellis: Well, mine is actually a bit of a combination of that question and the next one, which is one person who's made a difference to your development.  So, I've actually combined both of those two together.  So, over the past year, I'm definitely somebody who during the pandemic, I wasn't quite as good at creating connection and building a network in a way that works for me, partly because I think my excuse, and I think it is a bit of an excuse, would have been, "Oh, we were really trying to run our business and it was growing".  And so I think in hindsight, I was quite head down.  

I was like, "What do we need to do to make Amazing If work and amazing?" and was much less about building relationships beyond the ones that we kind of needed right now.  And so over the last year, I've really tried to make more of an effort to think about, "Well, who am I learning from?" spending time with some different people in different places. So, I've learned a lot over the last year where I go to these very informal, so it works really well for me, it's not too formal, very informal dinners, which are usually in just an office that belongs to one of the people who comes along.  And it is six to eight people who all run their own companies, similar-ish size to us, most of them are actually probably a little bit bigger, they probably all have a little bit more experience than we have, but everybody just rocks up with some food and we just sort of order something for delivery. 

But there's a little bit of an agenda, which I also really like.  This appeals to me on all sorts of levels.  It's informal, it's six to eight people, they're all sort of smart, sparky people, and then there's some questions to guide the discussion, which get agreed beforehand.  So, someone will start and just be like, "What's on everyone's mind?" and then you end up with this kind of three to five questions. Everybody takes it in turn to host, and I hosted one this year.  And it would have been really easy for me to not do that.  There's no pressure to do it, and also we don't have an office.  And that was a bit like, "Oh, I need a space".  But I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to let that stop me".  And I've got a friend who has a brilliant business called Kaleido that makes delicious food.

Helen Tupper: I saw her Kaleido rolls in Harrods at the weekend; they look great.

Sarah Ellis: I know.  And so, we ordered her food and we got everyone together.  And I think I have learned a lot from spending time with those people, because sometimes what's on their mind is not on our mind, and I'm like, "Okay, well that's interesting.  Should it be; or is it just different dynamics?"  And I think that group of people have made a difference to my development because they've encouraged me to see Amazing If differently, to ask different questions, maybe to think further ahead.  Because they are almost all further ahead really in terms of stage and age and ambition and where they are, it's made me question, "Well, what does that mean for us for now, and would we want to do something similar; or, would it look just very, very different?" So, yeah, that's just been a really good experience and I've prioritised it, made time for it for the whole year. 

It's something I always really look forward to, which I think is a good sign, and I do like that it all feels very supportive, but also closed, so I never worry about what you're going to share, I just feel like everyone is there to support everybody else to succeed, and there's just some really interesting conversations.  So, that's something I'm kind of really grateful for and I just feel like I've learned a lot through those conversations.

Helen Tupper: Again, I have three!  Because my first one feels like a bit of a copout, but I think you have made a difference to my development.  And I know it's a bit of a copout because obviously you have, but you really have.  And I think this year in particular, Sarah has many talents, but I think tenacity, commitment, your ability to work across multiple things at the same level of energy; you often say that about me, but I've seen it so much in you this year, your drive for completing things and your tenacity to improve things and make it better, I've just seen on countless times, and I think it's just made me think, "When could I be more like that, or how could I be more like that?"  I think you just set a very, very high bar. 

You do.  You cannot not develop yourself when you work with Sarah because you set a very high bar that always makes you think, "Oh, how do I keep contributing?  What am I adding to this situation?"  So, I think that that feels like a bit of a copout one because we work together, but I think I wanted to acknowledge it. The other two, one is also kind of a network that I'm part of.  So, I want to kind of give a shout out to Gemma, a friend, Gemma Greaves, who runs a network called Cabal, which is a social network, we don't have an agenda like Sarah's.

Sarah Ellis: It's also probably why they're a good fit for our respective personalities.

Helen Tupper: They are.  But I have found that very fuelling.  So, I have more energy for the work that Sarah and I do because I'm part of that community.  Because if I've had a hard day, or there's been a lot on, and I might feel quite tired, I feel re-energised by spending time in that community that Gemma has created.  So, that's definitely made a difference to my development.  And then one other person, which is a bit more recent really, is Avivah Wittenberg-Cox.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, she's so great.

Helen Tupper: She is really great.  She's made a difference in my development both because I really admire her expertise in the area that she works on, so she talks about sort of longitudinal leadership and generational diversity in organisations; I just find it's making me think differently about the work that we do.  But also, just how she works I think is very interesting.  She is very generous, she is very sharing in terms of her platform.  So, she writes a Forbes, for example, and she's very giving in terms of, "How can I use my platform to support your work?"

Sarah Ellis: And what was the first thing she said when she met us together?

Helen Tupper: Oh, I don't know what she said.

Sarah Ellis: Do you not remember?

Helen Tupper: It's probably something that -- well, it makes you smile.  So, something that's made you quite smug!  What was it?

Sarah Ellis: I think you had already met her.

Helen Tupper: I had a lovely lunch with her, it was great.

Sarah Ellis: And then, we were together and we met her at an event that we'd invited her to speak at for us.  And she met me and she was like, "Oh, Sarah, the better half"!  I absolutely loved it!

Helen Tupper: I mean, she's just charming.

Sarah Ellis: She's very charming.

Helen Tupper: I wouldn't bag that as factual!

Sarah Ellis: I was just like, "I love you!"  But yeah, she's brilliant and I think we're going to be talking to her on her podcast in the new year.

Helen Tupper: We are, I'm very excited.

Sarah Ellis: So, one knot that you want to untangle in 2024.  So, we have started as a team sharing our knots.  So, we describe it as, "What's not working for you".  And already, I think that has been really productive, even just by -- we have a Miro board that we use across the whole team -- even by everyone just saying them and sharing them, and then we did a session where everyone just very briefly and succinctly described their knots. 

I think people have individually just made more progress, or they've teamed up to do some untangling.  And then, we did one session together where we were getting our brains together to try and untangle some of the knots, and that seemed to work really well.  So, I really want to keep that momentum going around knots because funnily enough, it actually can feel very positive and optimistic, because actually untangling is a good thing.  You might start off feeling a bit negative like, "Oh, look at all these knots", but then not if you make progress on them.  So, what's a knot that you want to untangle?

Helen Tupper: Too many knots.  One that I've mentioned already is the reading days, because that has not worked for me this year and I find it really important.  This one is just really boring.

Sarah Ellis: Knots are boring though, right?  Quite a lot.

Helen Tupper: So, how I manage my to-do lists has gone a bit wrong this year, it has not worked for me.  And it's because I've got Post-it notes, I've got a notebook, I've got Microsoft Planner things, they're all over the place, and that's just not worked.  And I used to be so much better.

Sarah Ellis: You were.  I remember the Filofax days.

Helen Tupper: Filofax.  I used to have, years ago, this thing called Beezy, this app that probably doesn't exist now, which used to have quadrants for my…  I used to have a system that worked for me, and I don't know why but I've lost my system.  And so for me, I think I would just feel a bit more focused, and I think I would feel better at the end of the day, and I'd feel better at the end of the week if I sorted out that knot.  So, that's mine.

Sarah Ellis: I cannot believe that we have pretty much the same knots --

Helen Tupper: Oh, really?  No way.

Sarah Ellis: -- which is quite unusual for us.  I wouldn't have expected that.

Helen Tupper: Your to-do list is a knot?

Sarah Ellis: Well, yeah, it's not just my to-do list, it's my to-do list, it's my notes, it's my thoughts, it's everything.

Helen Tupper: It's your brain; is your brain not working?!

Sarah Ellis: Well, I think it does work but I feel it also scatters, it's quite scattered, is the word.  So, my knot is, I think I am too scattered and then I think stuff gets missed along the way.  So, as a very practical example, I did realise yesterday I currently have three notebooks on the go.  And I sort of got angry at myself, I'm like, "This is really stupid".

Helen Tupper: I know and I'd be like, "Maybe if I buy a nicer notebook".  I'm like, "No, Helen, that's not the solution!"

Sarah Ellis: And also, I lost some notes.  So, I often scribble stuff down on big old Post-its that we use for our sessions because they are there, and then I put those in the bin.  And then I'm like, "Oh, well now I've lost -- I actually needed that, because actually maybe it had some other stuff on, but it actually had something I needed".  And so I get mad at myself and I get frustrated and also that takes up energy.

Helen Tupper: You know you have those like, I haven't actually watched them, but like the TV programmes, aren't they like the de-clutterers, the home de-clutterers that come in with their boxes and stuff.  I feel like I want somebody to do that for my to-do list and productivity.

Sarah Ellis: I think part of it also comes from trying out tech.

Helen Tupper: Yeah I agree, then you get distracted by it.

Sarah Ellis: I don't want to stop trying out tech.  So actually, the Miro board for example, for the knotty moments, has worked really well, and we haven't lost anything there because we all agreed to do it in that way.  I think it's my own system, and we've talked about as a company, "Should everybody do the same thing?"  I'm quite anti that because I do feel like everyone needs to create the system that works for them.

Helen Tupper: Everyone's creating actions for each other, it's a complicated thing.

Sarah Ellis: But it's a tricky thing to get right and you're like, "Well, I can think of about three actions that I need to tell you about today" and I'm like, "What do I do; do I just talk to you?"

Helen Tupper: Well, even though our solution might be different, our system and our solution might be different, we should probably talk about it together, given how interrelated we are, and we've got the same knot.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I always think, imagine if WhatsApp goes down, would our business just die?  Because sometimes we make quite important decisions via WhatsApp!

Helen Tupper: We do.

Sarah Ellis: So, I think I will move on from that one.  And we thought we would finish, if you're still with us by this point, I do sometimes wonder if these podcasts are just a way of us having a conversation at the end of the year.

Helen Tupper: I mean, it really is a look behind the scenes, isn't it?  It really is!

Sarah Ellis: None of our other podcasts are like this.  Usually, by the way, I mean if this is your first listen, I'm like, it's not that reflective of the other podcasts, which are more practical and to the point probably.  But to the final question, a high energy opportunity or learning that you're looking forward to next year?

Helen Tupper: The thing that I mentioned, that apparently was a win I'm not allowed to have because it was work-related, the EY Winning Women thing, we have got a moment where that whole community is coming together in Istanbul in April and I'm so excited.  I've had a couple of meetings with the women in that community and I feel lifted by them, lifted by their energy, lifted by their ambition.  I don't think I have a network like that of ambitious women doing brilliant things all over the world, and I'm really excited to learn from them and be energised by them and bring back all that energy into our business.

Sarah Ellis: Mine is, we are creating a community to test our ideas with in the first half of next year, some ideas for the big-book thing that Helen half mentioned, which we'll share very soon.  We're not allowed to say it out loud, it's not that exciting.  It's very exciting for us.

Helen Tupper: It's very exciting!

Sarah Ellis: I know, but you know when you're like, it's not like a Strictly announcement, like who's going to be on Strictly this year, or whatever.

Helen Tupper: It's a Squiggly announcement.

Sarah Ellis: It's a Squiggly announcement.  And I think we've not for a while, and I think I miss, creating things from scratch, like ideas from scratch, models from scratch, that then you can test in a workshop environment and you can sort of see very quickly, "Oh, that one just didn't stick, didn't seem to work for people, or people got a bit confused", that sometimes happens, "Oh, but this one feels really memorable", and then that gives you a lot of confidence to build on it.  And it's sort of how Amazing If started and I often think it is us at our best, when we sort of go,

"We need to create a way to help people get feedback faster" and then we're like, "Right, okay, well that's the problem we're trying to solve.  What about this?  What about that?  What about this?"  And we're going to create this kind of high-learning community, and I'm just really excited to do something that is designed to be very work in progress. It's all about learning, it's all about testing ideas.  And I think if you sometimes don't have a forcing function to make those things happen, the risk is you end up a bit too much on repeat.  And I see that sometimes where you've got a lot going on and you're like, "Oh, we're doing the same again".  And I always want to feel like we are pushing into more useful, better continual improvement, which is probably how you were describing me when you were like, "Relentless", basically.

Helen Tupper: She sets a high bar.

Sarah Ellis: Relentless/high bar, which I think you described it quite nicely.  And I was like, "Is she basically just saying I'm relentless?"  But that's a conversation for another day, right?!

Helen Tupper: So, we hope you have found that interesting.  Is that interesting?

Sarah Ellis: I don't know, maybe.

Helen Tupper: It's been very real, everybody.  You've really heard what's been going on in our worlds and our lives over the last 12 months.  To make it useful though, there are a set of questions there which will hopefully be useful for your reflection, and we would really recommend that you have this as a conversation with somebody else, because it's just interesting to hear what's going on in someone else's head and what's been going on in someone else's world, and I think it deepens your reflection and creates a bit more clarity as well.  So, we'll put all those questions on the PodSheet so that you can maybe print that off and fill it in as you go. 

And if you have any feedback for us on what has been useful or helpful for you this year, or any memorable moments from listening to the Squiggly Careers podcast, please let us know.  We are helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you all so much for listening in 2023 and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.