Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:42: Matrix to determine your starting point…

00:04:07: … being territorial about your work

00:05:30: … detached response

00:06:39: … attached response

00:10:27: … open response

00:11:15: Ideas for action…

00:11:32: … 1: stop and share

00:14:40: … 2: going back to basics

00:19:27: … 3: checkpoints

00:25:41: … 4: relax your standards

00:31:22: … 5: it's better because

00:37:20: Downing Street!

00:38:13: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where every week we share some ideas and some tools that we really hope will help you to navigate that Squiggly Career with a bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And if this is the first time that you've listened, it might be useful for you to know that alongside the podcast, we also produce a range of different resources, which sounds very formal, but some stuff to help you with your learning, including a PodSheet, which is a downloadable summary; we have PodNotes, which are swipeable summaries that are quite quick and easy; and then, we put it all together into PodMail.  You can get all of that stuff from our website.  If you go to amazingif.com, click on the podcast page, you'll basically find everything there and if you ever can't find it, just email us; we're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: So this week, we're talking about when it's great to be good enough.  So, the context to this topic is there is so much happening in all of our Squiggly Careers and in our weeks that if you try to do everything to an equal standard, you are going to get in your own way.

Helen Tupper: Well, an equally high standard, I suppose is the point!

Sarah Ellis: Yes, equally high standard.  Yeah, if you do it all to an equally low standard, that's a different problem all together!  But I do think this is probably one of those classic areas of self-sabotage, where if you've got really high standards all the time, you're not discerning about where you apply those standards, everything takes a lot of time, you probably don't involve people in the right way, and there are moments where pace and progress are more important than a very, very high-quality bar.  And not only could it hold you back, I think it could hold back the people around you too, because it becomes a source of stress, it can create issues across your team; if you're a manager, we know the number one reason people find managers difficult is micromanagement, and that could definitely come from this sense of, everything has to be amazing all of the time, or fear of failure. What we're not saying is, "Do less better", so try and reduce the amount of things you're doing --

Helen Tupper: That's a copout, isn't it?!

Sarah Ellis: -- just have this high-quality bar the whole time.  Yeah, I think that is the copout answer.  It's, how do we all get comfortable with some things being good enough?  The payoff, if we can do this, is that then it releases you, it gives you more time to put extra energy and effort into those things where maybe they do matter more, you do want the quality to be exceptionally high, and good enough is okay the rest of the time, that's actually the right answer. I think Helen and I, we've prepped quite a lot for this podcast and had quite a few chats about it, I really hope it will be a helpful topic for you, because we've been finding it really useful and definitely had a few realisations that we start from a very different place here and need quite different help.

Helen Tupper: So, in order to work out where you are starting from, we have created a matrix.

Sarah Ellis: And actually, it's a matrix that we're both very onboard with, it's not just a Helen matrix, it's an "us" matrix this week!

Helen Tupper: Well, I think it's because there's Helen matrices, is that the right term?  And then helpful matrices, and I think we decided that this one is a helpful one, I just haven't randomly created one.  So, we think that the matrix, which I will talk through now, will help you to assess where you are starting from, in terms of your approach to always needing to be great, or being okay already with being good enough.  And I'll talk it through, but this is one of the things that we'll put in the PodSheet, so it might be easier to visualise this.  We'll create something that you can see on social, so if you follow us @amazingif on LinkedIn or on Instagram, you'll be able to see it there, and we'll also put it in the PodSheet for you.

So, in order to assess yourself on the matrix, there are two dimensions that you need to reflect on.  The first is how much you care about this thing you're doing, this project that you're working on, and that could be a high level of care or it could be a low level of care; and the second is how much you need control, how much control you feel like you should have and want to have over this thing.  It might be a high need for control or a low need for control, and depending on where you mix those two things up in terms of things that you're working on depends on where you sit on this matrix, and that has certain implications for how you manage things and how you might come across to other people. Let me talk through the four different results, depending on those care and control factors.  So, let's imagine you have got a really high need for control but actually, the thing that you're doing, you don't really care about.  What this comes across as is you being very territorial about your work. 

You're automatically assuming ownership of this thing, even though you don't really care about the outcome.  And it might sound like, "Well, that's my job to do.  I'm not going to give it to someone else, because that's my job to do".  Maybe you're not that passionate about doing it, but you go, "That's my job, I should be the person doing that, I'm not going to let that go to somebody else".  And that can be quite off-putting to somebody else, who could see how it could be better if you would give it to somebody else, but you're just keeping hold of it because, "That's my job to do".

Sarah Ellis: It also might look like you're very concerned about taking credit, almost going, "Well, this is mine".  You don't really care about it, you're not prepared to share it with other people, you're going, "I want to keep all of my stuff with me, because what happens then if I don't get the plaudits for that piece of work or for that project".  So, I think we've probably all done this at some point as well.  I think with each of these as you go through, it's really thinking about maybe consider a piece of work at the moment that you're doing where you would like to have this good enough mindset and skillset. 

And as Helen's describing each part of the matrix, just think about which one of these would you fall into, don't beat yourself up about it, we've all done all of them; but then just think, what are the risks if you stay in the unhelpful parts of the matrix.

Helen Tupper: So, the next part is where you have a low need for control, so you don't need to take ownership of it, and also you have a low level of care, so you don't really care about the outcome.  And we have called this particular response to your work, "the detached response".  The risk here is really to your reputation, because you're working on something and you're just sort of letting it go into the world without any particular care or any particular sight of what happens next.  And it might sound like you saying, or you hearing someone else say, "I'm just going to send it and see".

What's driving someone often who is in this area of being a bit detached about their work is, "I need to get it done".  I see this in myself sometimes, and it's not that I'm just intentionally trying to be detached from things, it's because I'm so focused on getting things done and getting things out that I stop caring about it, because the objective is getting it done, and I don't really care about what happens next to it, because I've let it go so I can get something else done.  So, I do this in myself and, "I'm just going to send it and see, it will be fine.  It will probably be fine".  "Well, how do you know it's fine, Helen?"  "I don't, because I've already detached from my work".

Sarah Ellis: "I've moved on to the next thing, so I don't care"!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, exactly that.  So, I definitely see myself in that one.  The next one, which might be more like Sarah, is where you have a high level of care, so the thing that you are working on, you are very personally invested in, you want it to do well, you've got almost that emotional connection to it, but you also have a very high need for control over when it gets done and how it gets done and what gets done on it.  And what we're calling this is when you're very "attached" to your work, and the risk is you basically become over-attached, because you're over-identifying with the outcome. 

This is about you and your work and how you think it should be done, and not really being able to zoom out and see the bigger picture here.  It's about the time you're spending on it and how much your ideas are being progressed with this particular project. It might sound like, and when I say it might sound like, this is what it does sound like from Sarah to me, Sarah will often hand me a project and say, "I've got it 90% there now, I'm just ready for your input", and I'm like, "What if I think it's not 90% there?  Are you not giving me permission now to input beyond a minor improvement?!"  And so it's like, what's the point of me contributing if it's 90% there.  Am I the person who ticks things off?  And I'm being harsh, that's not always how I respond, but that's how it can feel when someone says, "I'm 90% there now".  What value am I supposed to be adding at this point in time?  Anything you'd like to add to that, Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: No, just when I read what it sounds like, I was just thinking, "That sounds exactly and suspiciously like me", and I think sometimes you can do these things unintentionally and sort of unconsciously.  So, as soon as I saw that written down, I was like, "I have definitely been working on things where Helen and I have been working on them together and I would definitely say that".  And I'm not thinking, "I don't care about Helen's input [or] I don't want her ideas, this has happened", almost like you've slipped into being too attached. I think this happens, certainly for me, it happens gradually. 

It's not a choice that I've made, I've not suddenly thought, "I'm really controlling and I really, really care about this and therefore, I really over-identify with what I'm working on".  I think you get more and more attached to something over time and then by the time you share it with someone else, it feels very hard to let it go, so then almost without realising, you do say, "It's 80% there, it's 90% of the way there".  Now, in some ways I think I'm probably also telling myself maybe a fake story of, "Well, Helen should be proud of me, because I've got it 90% of the way there". So, it's so interesting, isn't it, sometimes what you're telling yourself, and then almost how that thing is being received.  And for some things, getting it 90% there might be exactly what is needed, but just reminding ourselves here of what we're talking about.  We're talking about something where you've intentionally thought, "This is about being good enough".  So, if something is good enough, it's about pace and progress, what are you doing getting it to 90% of the way there?  That is not the marker, or that is not a factor in a good enough piece of work.  So, it might be okay for some other things, but it is not okay if you're going, "Well, this is about speed and sharing".

Helen Tupper: I think effectively, if you are someone who naturally gets over-attached to their work, the main message, and we're going to get practical on the "how" with this in a minute, but you've got to learn to let it go; take some things into your ways of working which help you learn to let it go, because the work will hopefully be better because you do that, that's what we want you to realise. One other thing I think if you're over-attached, in terms of a risk, and I don't see this in Sarah, you don't do this, but I think the risk is that you can get quite defensive about other people's input. 

So, even if you do go, "I've got it 90% there" and I pick it up, I might go, "I think we could do this bit differently, or this bit I think would be better if we did this", you might get quite defensive about it because you're so attached to it.  Now, you don't do that, you would always listen to feedback, but I can imagine that would happen for other people, because it feels like a criticism of them and not the work because it's become very personal. Now, the area that we're trying to get everyone to, where there is a high level of care, you want this thing to go well, you're working hard on it because of that high level of care, but we want you to have a lower level of control, this is basically where you're learning to let go, we're calling this area, this response, the "open response".  This is where you can let it go so that thing can grow, you're able to see that it can be better if you do that. It might sound like somebody saying, "I've made progress and now I'd really love your perspective", and it's like this happy handoff, I would say, to somebody else, that's what we're really looking for here, and this is the zone of good enough. 

This open approach to how you're working, this ability to let it go because you think it will be better as a result of that, is this zone of good enough which you're trying to spend a bit more time in.

Sarah Ellis: So, we've now got five ideas for action for when you want to stay in that open zone of good enough, so things that are going to help you maybe move from one zone to another if you need to, or just to recognise the zone that you need to be in to effectively manage something with a good enough mindset. So, idea for action one, and these are based on I think things that both you and I have actually done very practically, so the first one is called Stop and Share.  This has worked really well for me.  So, I find having a definitive time and date when you're going to stop working on something and share it incredibly useful.  It creates a boundary, you need to communicate that boundary to the person who you're working with, and then good enough essentially becomes wherever you get to by that time.  And so I like it because it limits me. 

It's limiting and then I've got to let it go. Though I still find it really hard, if I don't let it go, I then feel like a failure.  So, I was actually working on something last week, Helen and I were writing an article together, and basically I was doing four hours of focused work on this article.  Helen and I had agreed, we were actually in the same place, but working very separately, we didn't actually see each other, but Sarah's going to work on this for four hours and then at that point, Sarah stops.  We were so clear on that that I was just like, "Well, good enough becomes whatever I can do in four hours". Now, did I want to send you that link; was I ready?  Of course I wasn't.  By that point, I was really attached to it and I really care about that article, and that's a good thing; we should never diminish caring about the work that you do.

Helen Tupper: You always send me those things with some WhatsApp messages.  I should probably read those.  I think it says, "I'm really happy with where we got to", you know, the emotion is coming out!  So, you're handing it over, but also the emotion of that over-attachment comes through.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and so I just think if you've got the boundary, you've created and communicated a boundary, you're so much more likely to stick to the good enough approach.  And then, maybe if you're like me and you do find it hard, perhaps once you've started to do it -- so, I've done that a lot more now in the last couple of years as Helen and I have developed our ways of working, I'm really used to doing that; but maybe to Helen's point, the next thing I need to practise letting go is when I stop and share something, it is okay to just stop and share.

So, what I do, as Helen's just described, is I stop and share with sort of some commentary and probably a few caveats and a bit of extra sharing that I probably don't need to do.  Let's say I've written an article, Helen can read that article and she can figure out what she thinks, she doesn't need any of that extra stuff from me.  So actually again, I could buy myself back another 15 minutes of time, or half an hour of time, by not doing that extra bit, because that extra bit isn't the good enough bit.  The good enough is, you write the thing and you share the thing.

So again, just spotting almost what helps you to let go, what helps me to let go is probably me doing some of that extra stuff, so that's probably my "even better if", even though I am so much better at this than I was, probably even better would be, "Just share the link to the article, Sarah, you don't need to go any further than that!"  It makes me nervous saying it out loud; I'm like, "But what about the WhatsApp messages that make me feel better?!"

Helen Tupper: But this is a spectrum, right.  So, stop and share is better than keeping it to yourself.  So, there's a few points in order to do that, so I think the link with some commentary is fine, to get us moving on things! The second idea for action is all about Going Back to Basics.  I think one of the things that I've spotted with people that have this desire for everything to be great and they struggle to let go of their work, I think one of the other by-products of that behaviour is that people also struggle to get started, because they're like, "It's got to be amazing in order for me to move this forward and my idea could be even better".  So, it's like, "Well, what could it look like; give me an idea of it?" and it's like that person is not ready to put that idea down on paper.  So, going back to basics is a bit of a forcing function for getting an idea down on paper so other people can see it, even before a project progresses.  It's like, "What is this idea that's in your head?

 Let it go so other people can see it and contribute to it". One of the things we do here is we do Project on a Page and it is really, really useful, because you might think, "This idea could be better, I'm not ready to share it yet", all that kind of stuff, but Project on a Page is a real forcing function for you to get that idea out of your head, put the main details -- think of it as the minimum viable product approach, like what are the basics; what's the objective; how would it work; what would good look like; how would we measure; when could we start? 

Those sorts of questions are all really useful for Project on a Page. What we are saying now in our team, for example, is every project we commit to must have a Project on a Page, so other people could look at it, they could share ideas, it's consistent for everyone.  So, this isn't something that we just make Sarah do, because she needs to start learning to get over things; it's not a special Sarah thing, it becomes part of the team culture, and I do think that's important, you don't want to single people out for behaviours, "Sarah has to do Project on a Page but no one else does, Helen can do whatever she wants"!  I think this is an important part of our culture. We talked on the podcast recently about ways of working and I think Project of a Page is part potentially of a team's ways of working.  But I do think it reduces the pressure and it helps everybody to contribute and it can become just a consistent way a team all gets more pace and also perspective on the things they're working on.

Sarah Ellis: I think if you have identified something as, "This is where we want to be good enough, that's what's most important here, to make progress and be good enough", if you don't then have a shared clarity or understanding on what that good enough is, you actually also run the risk that good enough in my head is probably very different to good enough in Helen's head.  Well, I say "probably"; definitely! 

So, if you miss this bit out, I actually think you could end up with confusion, you could end up with frustration. So, Helen and I could be like, "This is a good enough piece of work", and I go, "Well, good enough for me looks like a shiny presentation, because that's what I think we need for this piece of work", and Helen goes, "Well, I just thought we could write in our --" we have lots of wikis in our team, "I just thought we could write it on a wiki, and the most important thing to do was to get down a paragraph of what this could look like", and I go, "Oh, okay, well we should have talked about that", and then we've agreed good enough. I think if you miss this bit, especially if you're doing this as a team, or maybe with a manager, so if you imagine Helen is my manager and Helen is like, "Right, Sarah, I think this is about good enough", but our starting points of good enough are very different, as we've talked about in terms of that matrix, again as a manager, Helen might think, "Sarah's not listening, or she doesn't understand, or perhaps she's not good at working quickly". 

Or, if you're a manager who said, say I'm the manager now and we reverse the roles and I say to Helen, "Well, this is just about being good enough", and then I see what Helen does and I'm like, "Well, this is not good enough", it actually could be quite tricky and actually really demotivating. So, I think just spending a little bit of time on this, what does the minimum viable product look like, what is good enough, make sure that's agreed and properly written down somewhere so everyone has 100% clarity on that, just stops you falling at the first hurdle, or trying this and then going, "Well, that doesn't work".

Helen Tupper: My watch-out on this one, I feel like with every one of these, there's a watch out for, is don't over-perfect the Project on a Page.  So, the idea of Project on a Page is you can get your thoughts down quite quickly to create clarity for everybody.  But then what you could do is then over-perfect, because you're trying to make everything great, you could be like, "There's not enough detail in that.  I think we need something else on Project on a Page".  No, the point is, we've got it down on paper so people can talk about it and move it forward.  It is not to spend so much time on Project on a Page that the project never moves forward, so don't over-perfect that thing.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I could spend quite a lot of time making sure the words were right, or being like, "Maybe we could just tighten that objective", and that's not going to be that useful.  What I think is helpful is that word "page", because that is a forcing function.  So, good enough equals one page.  I would say, if I felt it felt like it was longer than that, I'd be like, "Okay, that's a bit of a red flashing light, because maybe we don't all understand what we're trying to do", and that's still helpful. So, idea for action three is about checkpoints.  When you are doing something and you're in that good enough mindset, very rarely are we working by ourselves in our Squiggly Careers, there's usually cross-functional relationships, there's interdependencies, there's stakeholders that we're going to need to involve and be aware of and maybe share our work as we go. 

So, a bit like when we've talked before about labelling things as experiments, I can actually imagine it might be useful to label things as, "This is a good enough project", or whatever words would feel right in your culture, but then agreeing when are the right checkpoints. Maybe you say, "I'm going to check in with this group when I've made 10% progress, 50%, 75% and 90%".  What is quite interesting in some of the articles that I've read is that often by doing this, what you realise is that good enough, you get there quicker than you'd imagined.  So, for example, you get to 50% and people actually go, "That's fine, that's actually all we needed".  Or, you get to 75% and someone's like, "Do you know what, we don't need the next 25%", so you suddenly don't waste work along the way, these checkpoints actually speed you up. What's quite interesting, I've done this before actually somewhere else where I've worked, is sometimes almost going, "We're going to do this really differently, make something good enough, and just see what the impact is on stakeholders and relationships", and you often take a bit of a deep breath because you think, everyone's really used to let's say receiving this information in a very shiny presentation, I don't know, a monthly report with loads of metrics in, and it's like, "Well, we do that, it takes loads of hours from everybody and we all work really hard on it".

If we were to apply a good enough mindset to this monthly pack, it took 30 hours rather than, I don't know, 300 hours, I'm exaggerating, and then you do that and then you actually say to stakeholders, "Actually, do you know what, we've experimented with doing this in a good enough way, because we're very mindful it's very time-consuming and actually we think we could do it in a more basic way, but still give you what you need", every time I've ever seen anybody do that and anyone be brave enough to do that, usually people just go, "Yeah, that's fine", and you're like, "What?!" I mean, partly you're going, "You're telling me that it's always been fine and I didn't need to do the 300 slides?" or whatever; but I think most of the time, you almost you fall into habits of how things get done and everything maybe has this really high quality bar. 

And then actually, I worked for a really good director who was good at this actually and she would challenge it, she would be like, "Why does that need to be five pages?  Why does that need to take four people?  Why do we need to pay someone externally to make this look all shiny?"  She'd always be like, "Well, how do we do it really simply and quickly?" because she was actually very like Helen, she was very pacy and progress-y naturally, so she brought that mindset. I think then, if you've got someone who can champion that, you will start getting a bit more confident with this idea of good enough, because I think we hide behind sometimes some of those things that make something shiny, or the amount of hours and it feels all great and you're like, "Okay, it's got a really high quality bar", so we feel better about our work.  I actually think it can sometimes be, well actually, I don't think, I know, you can feel quite vulnerable, it's quite exposing to do something in a good enough way if you've been used to doing it in a "everything must be great" way.

Helen Tupper: It's so interesting just to listen to you, because it's just so different to my experience!

Sarah Ellis: I mean, I can actually see Helen today.  So, usually we don't sit in the same room.  You were just listening to me there just being like, "Right, this is --"

Helen Tupper: "Is that what it feels like?"!

Sarah Ellis: Yes, it is exactly what it feels like!

Helen Tupper: Because you were like, "We all feel like this", and I was like, "No, I do not feel like that!"  I just do not feel like that!

Sarah Ellis: We really need to talk about equality.  Can we now do it with the podcast?!

Helen Tupper: Well, yeah, I mean equality for work is probably a podcast that I need to have --

Sarah Ellis: It would make me feel better!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, we probably should.  I think I am, because of that pace and perspective, and that I prioritise getting it done, which definitely has some disadvantages, I'm not saying that's always great, the quality bar being one of them, I think sometimes what Sarah and I really help each other to do sometimes is meet in the middle.  So, my quality bar sometimes is too low, because I'm very focused on just getting it done, so that will be reflected in typos in work and emails missing words out and that kind of stuff; and Sarah's quality bar will be too high, which means she'll spend longer on things than she needs to do.  So, I think we kind of help each other meet in the middle sometimes, which again I think is probably a separate idea for action; who sits in a different position on that matrix for you?  So, who is someone who has a lower level of care and control than you might need to have, because you could be really useful peer mentors for each other.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I think I am so much better at this, because I work with you day in, day out, so that has actually made a really big difference to how I work, and that's great because then I can make more progress on things, where sometimes you do want to get something done quite quickly.  I wouldn't be realising any benefit from that. My one top tip, or watch-out, as we've been saying for all of these, and our team are actually very good at doing this, is when you are checking in with people, be really clear on what are you checking in on. 

So, for example, we do some ten-minute tools for career development, and actually we've got quite a lot of them free on our website if anyone wants any of them, under our free toolkit.  When we're developing those, the team definitely have check-in moments with me, they're actually really specific about, "We're 30% of the way through, we're 60% of the way through".  What they do, which really matters, is they will say, "Okay, Sarah, so we're halfway through now developing this tool.  What we want to check in with you on is have we got the words all right? 

Are we happy with the words, because we're now ready to move onto the design, but basically ignore everything else other than the words". Now, I don't want to ignore everything else, because what about all the other things I can see that could be better and that could improve; but the clarity of that checkpoint means that I follow it, because someone has been so explicit and said to me, "This is what we are checking in on, so as long as that is right, we are moving on, because that's good enough for now", and I go, "Sure" and just say, "Yes, that's fine", and try not to panic, because I do find it hard!  I can't stop myself seeing all the other stuff.  I think just where I see that working so well in our team is just that, you're checking in on something, you've got that clarity of what do you need from other people, otherwise those check-ins can become free-for-alls.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I have seen that happen.  So, number four, relax your standards.

Sarah Ellis: No!

Helen Tupper: I know!  This is a build on what Sarah said, you know like where you mentioned a dashboard, I think that's a really good example.  You know that monthly report, and they can take absolutely ages, so many people input on them, they go round and round and take lots of hours; I think you need to look across the range of stuff that you're doing and think, "Which one or two of those things would be appropriate for it to be good enough?  I might get some time back, for example, I might be able to experiment with doing it a different way".  What we are not saying is that every single thing you work on, you should take a good enough approach to.

Sarah Ellis: Thank God, otherwise I'm giving up!

Helen Tupper: But I think it's important though for it to be a team discussion about what you think should be great.

Sarah Ellis: Yes.

Helen Tupper: So, we might look at all the things that Sarah and I are doing and say, "Do you know what, this particular project is really important for Amazing If's impact and it is important that it's great, because it's part of our brand and what we stand for.  But do you know what, these other five things, it's okay for that to be good enough.  And good enough means that we are not going to spend two days prepping for a podcast, because do you know what, an hour together in a room will make it good enough".  I mean, you can give us feedback after on that!

Sarah Ellis: Oh my God, I'm like, "Is this a good enough podcast or is this a great podcast?"  Now you've got me!  Oh, no.

Helen Tupper: But I think you can't make everything great and not everything should be good enough, I think is the point we're trying to get to.  So, when we're saying "relaxing your standards", just look across the work you do in a week and just really think about, "What is going to be good enough this week?" and for those things, think about, "What might I do differently?  If I'm taking a good enough approach to that meeting or that project, what does that mean I am doing differently?  Maybe I'm going to reduce the amount of meetings that we're all having, because do you know what, we could probably make it good enough with just one. 

Maybe that email that I send every week doesn't need to be three scrolls on my computer, maybe I could make it five bullet points and ultimately that will be good enough, because someone will tell me if they need more information". I think for me, I'd scan my diary, I'd think, "What am I spending the most time on?  And if I took a good enough approach to it, how much time will I get back and what would I do differently".  So for me, I think, one of my examples of this, we get asked regularly to input on articles.  So, we write some articles, Harvard Business Review articles, for example, I think they need to be great.  There are some other things that people will ask for our input on, which I take a good enough approach to.  So they'll say, "We'd really like your perspective on this point for International Women's Day".  Now I think, "Okay, well I've got ten minutes, I'll quickly type out my thoughts on this".  Could it be better?  Yes.  But is it good enough to go?  Yes.  And that's when I build that in, otherwise I'd spend way too much time writing and reflecting those things.  Ultimately, I think that's good enough to go a lot of the time.

Sarah Ellis: Also, what was interesting as we were prepping for the podcast with this particular idea for action, our examples were very different, because your response to this was, "I already do this a lot".  You were going, "I'm almost finding it hard to think of new examples, because this is built into my DNA.  Lots of things that I do are good enough", because you're naturally pacy and progress-y, as we've talked about.  I looked at it and I was like, "No".

Helen Tupper: "I will not come up with an idea of how I can relax my standards!"

Sarah Ellis: I've even written in our notes, "Right, I'm finding this really hard, I feel like everything we do should have a really high quality because I really care about it".  I was really struggling to identify what in my week I would do differently.  This idea of letting go of a quality bar does make me very uncomfortable, so just in case anybody else relates to that. So, what I was thinking for me, it's probably what I don't do that's more revealing versus what I would do differently.  So, there are some things I don't do, because I think I need to do it brilliantly, I've not got the time to, so therefore I don't do it.  For example, even today, I talked to Helen about an idea that I've got where I said to her, "I could post this idea on LinkedIn or Instagram and just get some feedback on it and see how people could contribute"; what are the barriers to Squiggly Careers essentially. Now, that's been in head already for two or three days, I talked to Helen about it briefly this morning.  That could very, very easily never become a thing, because I would be like, "Right, when have I got an hour to an hour and a half to craft this message and then to put it out onto Instagram or LinkedIn, and then to make sure that I'm present in case people respond and I want to be there for that?"  And then, of course, suddenly it doesn't happen.  Does that need to be great?  No.  What do I need, what is the purpose of that?  It's to get some feedback and to do some listening from people who are part of our Squiggly Careers community.  So, the most important thing to do is to do it. So for me, it wouldn't be about doing things differently, it would be about doing things that I don't want to do as quickly as I would need to do them to make them happen.  Does that make sense?

Helen Tupper: No, it does, but I'm just remembering the conversation, because Sarah shared this idea with me and I was like, "What we should do is just do an Instagram poll, and then we can see really quickly what these are", and I could see you being, "Not sure, I'm not sure about that".  And then you said, "I think what we should is we should come up with our ideas and then we should put it on a wiki, and then we'll put those ideas on social media and we'll see if anyone's got ideas to build on them". Now, might that make it more effective?  Yes. 

But ultimately, could we get to the same sort of ideas quicker by just sharing it?  Yes.  Again, I think this goes back to, it's really, really helpful for you to pair with someone who has a different approach to you, just to challenge some of the decisions that you make on autopilot.  I think if you have this great approach to all the work that you do, I think you might not even see the situations that that creeps into, but it is likely to be on everything from the emails that you send to the way that you manage projects to the way that you show up in meetings and prepare for meetings; it will be pervasive, I think, if this is the way that you work. Sarah Ellis: And our last idea for action number five is, "it's better because…". 

So, if you are trying to create a culture where at times, good enough is exactly what is needed, then you've got to recognise how being good enough makes something better, because also I think we are more motivated by outcomes; it's almost like the why behind the work again.  So, if you just go, "We're going to take a good enough approach to this", for somebody like me, that feels hard.  Whereas, if we say, "We're going to take a good enough approach to this", and almost as a result of that, it was better because we got really quick feedback and we've been able to make progress and look how much further forward we are now versus where we were a month ago, I would go, "Okay, I can see and we've realised some of the benefits of it". I think the more somebody could point out to me, "But you do realise that's better because of this now?" and almost connect some of those dots, and then I can start to attach myself to going, "Oh, okay, well I really wanted that feedback [or] I really appreciate the fact that those ten people have come back to us with some ideas that have made this better".  So, I think the more you can go, "Well, we took this good enough approach", but then you just take that bit of time to do the retrospective of, "That made it better because…", rather than just being, "Oh, it just felt really uncomfortable the whole time".

Helen Tupper: And I think somebody like you/you, you need evidence.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: Because for you, I think you'd be, if I said to you, "If we take a good enough approach to this, we'll be able to get it out faster", you'd be like, "Well, I don't care about how fast it goes out, Helen, I think it should be better".

Sarah Ellis: Exactly right, that sounds very right!  I agree with that statement!

Helen Tupper: Or if I said, "I think we should take a good enough approach to this, because then we'll be able to do more things in parallel", you'd be like, "Well, I don't think we should do more things in parallel, Helen, that's the whole point, I think we should focus on one thing at once and do it right".

Sarah Ellis: I also agree with that!

Helen Tupper: I mean, these are things that Sarah would say.  So, in order to encourage Sarah to adapt her behaviour, or insert other name than Sarah, I think evidence is really important.  Me saying to you, "Look, just want to look back on the way we took a good enough approach to that project.  This is why I think it was better because…", and Sarah would appreciate that.  And ultimately, the thing that we want to care about is what makes our team or our business or our work better.  So, if someone's idea can be built on and improved upon, then that ultimately is the thing that we should care about, not just the idea itself, but the impact of that idea or that project.  So, that better because, I think really helps someone to zoom out and appreciate the benefit of working in this way.

Sarah Ellis: And I think it is okay to have those honest, and I think you can just sort of enjoy having those conversations where, as Helen described, if someone just said to me, "We've done it faster", I'd be like, "That doesn't make any difference to me", or, "We've done more stuff", I'm like, "I don't want to do more stuff".  You've got to find I think common objectives and outcomes that you are all committed to. So for example, if Helen and I are thinking about, let's imagine we are writing another book and we'd got an idea, if I keep everything, if I get very attached, and actually I think it's fair to say I probably did get quite attached to writing You Coach You, which Helen can tell you that story another day, that created problems.

Helen Tupper: Well, it makes me detached, because I think I'm not going to fight you.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, so the more attached I get, the more detached Helen gets.  And, you know, we found our way through that!  I feel like, oh my God, we do so much --

Helen Tupper: The book got published and we're still friends!

Sarah Ellis: There was a point though, wasn't there, where it was like, "Are we still friends?"

Helen Tupper: I'm just going to write my own book!

Sarah Ellis: I'm going to write a rival book!  But I think one of the things that we then have to find our way through was that we realised halfway through that book that that is what had happened.  So then, once we both zoomed and out and we were like, "Right, what is our common objective here, what is the common outcome that we are both really committed to?" then almost part two of that process became much more open.  And if I actually think about how good we are now at being very open on good enough bits of work, we almost had to have the pain of that show us almost the --

Helen Tupper: The benefit.

Sarah Ellis: -- well, you get detached, I get attached, that's not helpful for anyone, especially not when you're first drafting a book, where actually good enough is what's most important; not ultimately, of course you want it to be great ultimately, but actually for draft one, it is about good enough.  So, we almost had to get it wrong to then be able to get it right, and I think it's made us so much more comfortable with that, you let it go to let it grow.  So for me, even if it feels hard, I know it's going to be better because we know what we're trying to achieve.  And if Helen starts to feel a bit detached, she'll think, "Okay, well how do I re-engage; how do I get involved with this again; what is happening here?" I think we've also both got a lot better at positively reinforcing positive behaviour, so where it is hard to let it go, recognise that and like you'll say to me, "I'm really looking forward to reading it".  Or, you know that I sometimes get, which I think you always look so bemused about, I'm always like, "I'm a bit nervous to hear how you feel about -- or, what is your feedback going to be basically on a bit of work", and you're like, "You're nervous about it?" and I'm like, "Well, yeah, because I care and I want to know how we're doing".  I just see you being, "Oh, that's interesting".

Helen Tupper: I'm like, "I'm just going to get on with it, Sarah".

Sarah Ellis: And, "I know you think that!"  Sometimes, it is actually surprising that we do work together so well!  I could never work out whether these podcasts help or hinder us, because we just start to realise all of our flaws.  But yeah, we find our way through, and that's all about squiggling with success, right, until we one day have a massive bust-up and it all goes really wrong.

Helen Tupper: It's fine, we'll just do a podcast on it!  Our listeners can be counsellors through this knotty moment!

Sarah Ellis: Almost the worse we get, the more interesting it becomes maybe?  I don't know.

Helen Tupper: Everyone's seeing our downfall, podcast by podcast.  They'll be like, "Oh, I remember when that started, there was that conversation they had about being good enough!"

Sarah Ellis: "And then, Sarah's quality bar just got higher instead of lower!"

Helen Tupper: "And Helen just got more and more detached from what they were doing!"

Sarah Ellis: "So, she left and started up her own rival career development company!"  Oh my God, can you imagine?

Helen Tupper: Called The Straight Line to Success!  Hopefully this won't happen, everyone, hopefully this won't happen.

Sarah Ellis: I feel like we're a bit delirious!  We should say, this afternoon we are quite excited, we are going to Downing Street.

Helen Tupper: This is a random segue on this podcast!

Sarah Ellis: It is a random segue, but I feel like we should explain, maybe we have been a bit more hyper in this podcast than normal!  So, it's International Women's Day, the day we're recording this, and we don't really know why, there's not loads of context in the invite, but we did get an invite, which initially we might have thought was fake.  We were like, "Why have we been invited?  And is this a real invite?"  We have decided it's a real invite.  We'll have to let you know if we get there and they're like, "Yeah, this is not a real invite", because we're not 100% sure, but we think it is.  So really, we're just going to be nosey, but we are very excited and we're going to try and take a picture of our Squiggly Career book in front of Downing Street, just to say that Squiggly has made it to Downing Street.

Helen Tupper: We'll put it outside 10 Downing Street, not just the street; we're going to go to 10 Downing Street!

Sarah Ellis: If we're allowed to, I don't know what the rules are, but it is very exciting.

Helen Tupper: Okay, we'll find a way, we'll be rebels for the Squiggly cause.

Sarah Ellis: So, shall I quickly summarise the five ideas for action to help you be good enough when good enough is great?

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: So, idea for action one: stop and share, create a boundary and communicate that boundary; idea for action two: go back to basics, what is the MVP; idea for action three: create checkpoints and be really clear and have clarity, what are you checking in on; idea for action four: relax your standards, so figure out where can you be good enough, is it about doing something differently or doing something you wouldn't normally do, if you're like me; and idea for action five: better because, make sure people feel motivated by this idea of being in a good enough mindset.

Helen Tupper: And as we said at the start, all of it will be summarised in the PodSheet, you'll be able to download that.  I think this could be a really interesting conversation to have as a team, like where do you sit on the matrix, for example; what could we do differently to help you; all really good conversations.  You can get that from our website, amazingif.com.  But we'll be back with you and another episode of the Squiggly Careers podcast next week.

Sarah Ellis: Thanks for listening, everyone.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.