Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:43: Idea for action 1: signals and switches

00:04:11: Idea for action 2: create an empathy experience

00:05:59: Useful resource

00:00:00: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Skill number 13 is empathy.  And I think if you don't have empathy, you limit your learning.  And when you see the world through other people's eyes, and you understand different people's perspectives, you also build better relationships.  And we had a brilliant guy on the podcast previously, called Roman Krznaric, who's written a book on empathy and who talks a lot about empathy and how useful it is in terms of just increasing our awareness, and actually to impact our actions as well, so that we don't just keep doing what we think is the right thing to do.  And he has this great quote, and he's a philosopher, quite a practical philosopher, but he is a philosopher, so I think you can hear that in this quote. 

He says, "Empathy is the art of stepping imaginatively into the shoes of another person, and understanding their feelings and perspectives, and using that understanding to guide your own actions". For those of you who do listen to the podcast, you will know I am a big Roman fan.  And so, his work has really influenced me.  Actually, even when he first started talking about jobs, he wrote a great book about fulfilment at work and all about the history of work.  And I'm not sure we would have even got some of the things on Squiggly without him.  So, I do fangirl him a little bit and read everything that he does.  He once did a crowdfunder for one of his books, so my name is in one of his books.  That's my claim to fame!

Helen Tupper: I love that you love that!

Sarah Ellis: I do love that.  I've got it on my bookshelf, it makes me really happy!  So Helen, practically --

Helen Tupper: My name's on a bottle of wine somewhere on a label, I funded some wine!

Sarah Ellis: That feels right!

Helen Tupper: That feels right, doesn't it?  Philosophy!

Sarah Ellis: I bought you some, I think, for your new house!

Helen Tupper: That's true!

Sarah Ellis: So, how can we be more empathetic?

Helen Tupper: I'm a bit nervous about talking about this one, if I'm honest.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah?

Helen Tupper: Well, I don't think I am naturally empathetic, which I think, I hope is okay to admit to.  I don't think I'm a horrible person, but it's not -- everyone, I'm not a horrible person!  I'm a confidence gremlin, this is horrendous!  So, what I have become good at, as someone who doesn't have this as a natural talent, is I think of it as sort of signals and switches.  So, often when I come to a conversation, I've not come with, "I need to be empathetic in this conversation", that is never the first thing in my head. 

But there will often be something in a conversation where I get a signal that that is what somebody else needs.  And at that moment, I'm like, "This is more about them than me".  That's often the switch that I'm making, is I get a signal. Now that could be, I might ask a question like, "How are you doing?" which I might mean quite flippantly, to be honest.

Sarah Ellis: You always mean flippantly.  Are you ever really asking that question?  I feel like, "How are you doing?  Fine?  Brilliant, let's move on"!

Helen Tupper: Kind of, kind of.  But sometimes I ask that question and someone will go, "I mean it's been a week", and I'm like, "All right".  I can't then go --

Sarah Ellis: Oh no!

Helen Tupper: I can't then go, "Okay, I'm sorry about that".

Sarah Ellis: "Back to the agenda".

Helen Tupper: "Back to the agenda".  I have to just make a very conscious like, "This is not about you and what you want to do, this is about this person now".  And I make two switches, a physical switch and a mental switch in those moments.  My physical switch is, I'll turn more to a person, because I'm often like doing different things.  So, I'll literally be like, "Okay, I'll turn, I need to physically be with this person".  Or sometimes, it's my phone, my environment-type stuff, I'll turn my phone over.

Sarah Ellis: I know that you'll give me a bit of empathy if you turn your phone over.  I always find it really funny when you turn your phone over!

Helen Tupper: You know me, you don't count!  You get no empathy!

Sarah Ellis: But very occasionally with me, because you're someone who does quite like your phone, you will turn it over and I'll think, "Oh, crikey".

Helen Tupper: "She's here".

Sarah Ellis: "She's really giving me her attention now.  Now what are we going to talk about?"

Helen Tupper: Next-level Helen!  So, yes, I will do that physical thing.  But then, I'd also do the mental thing, which is I will forget my list.  So, often I will come into a conversation, I mean you actually have a massive list generally for our conversations.  I don't, but I have a mental list. 

I never make the long list, but I have like a, "You do you, but I've got two things I want to talk about".  And I will, in that moment, I go, "Save it until later.  That's not what this needs right now".  So, yeah, I don't know, maybe the majority of our listeners are more empathetic than me, naturally.  I think I am empathetic but it's something that I have to do very intentionally.

Sarah Ellis: I don't think I'm amazing, I think maybe slightly different to you, but this really is kind of built on something that Roman Krznaric designed, where he designed an empathy museum.  And I went to it, obviously, because I'm a massive fan.

Helen Tupper: Obviously!  "Roman, I love you"!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, basically.  And you actually walked a mile along the Thames in someone else's shoes.  So, you put on someone else's shoes, same size as you, and then they talked to you in your headphones.  So, you were walking in their shoes and you were listening to them at the same time.  And I was like, "This is so powerful".  And there were people who had got very different experiences to you.  And now I think whenever I come across opportunities to design empathy experiences, I sort of use that as inspiration. 

So, I will think, "How can I immerse myself in that person's world?"  Go and walk in their shoes for an hour, a meeting, a day, a week, especially when I think maybe I don't understand that person that well, or I feel like their context is very different to mine. I often think an empathy experience feels time-consuming, it feels hard to prioritise, but I have never regretted it.  So, this is like the choice of, let's do it very practically, "Oh, I could go and meet that person in their office and get a feel for where they work and how they work, or could just do it on Zoom". 

Obviously, you just go, "Well just do it on Zoom so I don't have to go anywhere", and you're like, "Yes, that's exactly what I do".  But that ability, like seeing someone in their environment you then have a very different empathy with them.  Do they get interrupted all the time?  Is it a noisy office?  Do people seem happy?  What's the vibe there? 

And then I think you've got a lot more empathy for that person, but also for their experiences.  And so that's a very occasional thing, it's not an everyday thing.  But I think just spotting those moments where you're like, "When and where could I go and spend time in someone else's world?" and I think you never regret those moments. So, if you haven't listened to Roman on the podcast, I'd really recommend it.  And then particularly his book on finding fulfilling work for the school of life, is a short and specific read.  And some of his other books are more philosophical, if that's your thing.

Helen Tupper: And so that is the end of today's skill and we'll be back tomorrow with learning agility.