Presenting tips from TED (with Maryam Pasha)

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah Ellis.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen Tupper.

Sarah Ellis: And you're listening to the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work and discuss practical ideas and actions that we hope will help you to find your way through our Squiggly world of work.

Helen Tupper: And as you'll know, if you're a regular listener, the past few months for Sarah and I have meant quite a lot of time working and getting ready for our TEDx talk, which is now live; and you can watch it and go to Instagram @amazingif and you'll find that.  If you haven't seen it, we would love to get your feedback. 

But I think, for us, that was something we'd wanted to do for a long time, but it was also quite a good development thing for us to really think about how do we simply craft a message.  You've got a very specific time limit, you have to remember it, you want other people to remember it and the TEDxLondonWomen team were just amazing in helping us to craft that talk and keep us motivated and give us really, really good feedback to make sure it was a talk that we wanted it to be.

We thought that there was a lot of their experience and wisdom that they share with us for that talk that was actually also really relevant to how you do presentations at work, because obviously, no one's doing TED talks all the time and we don't present like that all the time, but there was a lot that we learnt that we have applied.  We've kept coming back to making our messages simpler, I think, since then and even in our writing, some of the things that we've learnt about how to craft to a message have influenced how we write for our book, for example.

So, what we wanted to do was share some of that wisdom with you.  And rather than us do it, we thought we'd bring the experts in.  So today, you're going to hear from Maryam Pasha, who is the Director of TEDxLondon, and she's going to share with us her insights and advice about how to apply some of the things that she's learnt from TED to more of our day-to-day reality at work, whether it's a presentation on zoom or, at some point when we're back in a room with our colleagues, how can we apply those insights.

Maryam not only curates and directs all of the TEDXLondon speaker events; she's also the founder of X Equals, a business that specialises in speaker coaching, pitch coaching and event production. 

Before we get started, we did just want to let you know about two other podcasts that we have both been enjoying.  Sarah, do you want to go first, because I think we've got very different ones?

Sarah Ellis: Of course.  So, Jimmy McLoughlin, who has been a guest on our podcast, he's a former 10 Downing Street advisor.  You might have heard me talk before about his podcast, which is called Jimmy's Jobs of the Future, and he's got a second series out now and he interviews some really interesting entrepreneurs.

The thing that I found most fascinating, I was chatting to him last week, is that from his first series, people like Bulb and Decoded, those organisations who were interviewed, have actually recruited people directly as a result of the podcast.  And I thought that must be such a brilliant feeling that you're having such a positive impact in terms of helping people to think about the roles that might be available, understand a bit more about the companies that perhaps they've not heard from before. 

In this series, he's going even further afield across the UK, interviewing people like Graphcore, Starling Bank, Octopus Ventures.  They're always really fascinating conversations where I think I learn something about a new sector, how it works, the sort of jobs that are coming along in those areas.  So, if you have a spare half an hour, I'd definitely recommend giving it a listen.

Helen Tupper: And my recommendation is the podcast, Delicious Ways to Feel Better, which is hosted by Ella and Matthew Mills.  I'm actually a massive fan of Ella Mills.  I have every single one of her recipe books.  It's very my food.

Sarah Ellis: It really is!

Helen Tupper: It really is my food; energy balls and granola.  If I could exist off that, I will.  They actually don't talk much about energy balls and granola; they talk much more about mental and physical health on the podcast.  It's everything from routines, they've got a really good podcast about routines that's just been released, and they also talk about relationships. 

It's a really broad spectrum but it's all about, I think at its simplest, it's about helping people cope.  Some of it's with work; some of it's with life; they do things on body image; they do things on stress.  But, I think they just have a really -- obviously, there's a really nice dynamic in a husband and wife team, but they also just have a really honest, friendly and open conversation.  So, if you think that you maybe haven't listened to it before or that sort of thing sounds interesting, you can just find that.  Where you find Squiggly, you can find Delicious Ways to Feel Better.

We'll be back at the end of today's episode to tell you a little bit more about the Squiggly Career Advocate Awards that we've got running at the moment; so, if you don't know about that, make sure you listen to the end because we have got some brilliant things for 100 people, really exciting awards programme that we are running.  But, I suppose we should get started and introduce Maryam.

Maryam, welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.

Maryam Pasha: Thank you so much for having me.

Helen Tupper: And, we thought that it might be an interesting start to bust a few myths about TED talks, because I think there were some things that I thought, going into the experience of doing a TED talk, that I was like, "Oh, that's not actually how it works".  So, I've got a few true or false statements for you to let us know.

Maryam Pasha: I'm excited for this!

Helen Tupper: Okay.  So, the first one, true or false: you have to be a brilliant and experienced presenter to do a TED talk; you've got to be great or do you don't get on?

Maryam Pasha: False, false, false!

Helen Tupper: Tell us more?

Maryam Pasha: Definitely a preconception people have.  And, there's also this definite mythology around being a great speaker that it's something, you know, you're charismatic; it's natural; you just have it or you don't have it.  And, it's just another way of gatekeeping, I think, for influencing, for power and for all those kinds of things.  So actually, people are not polished at the very beginning. 

I actually have to say that I most enjoy working with speakers who don't have it perfectly, who don't come to the first meeting saying, "I've got my draft ready", because those actually are the hardest to work with.  It's ones who are saying, "I've got a great idea.  I've done all these years of work.  I think I know what I want to talk about.  I'm a bit nervous; let's work on this together".

But yet, whether you see TEDx speakers or TED speakers, even for experienced speakers, that journey is epic to get them to that stage.

Helen Tupper: So, here's another one for you.  This is one that threw me a little bit.  True or false: everyone who does a TEDx talk is reading from an autocue?

Maryam Pasha: Yeah, this is something that really tripped me up as well in the beginning, because I was confused as to why speakers were even asking.  But actually, no, there's no autocue, it's totally false; it's all up in your head.  And you can see that sometimes, because some TED speakers very rarely do actually have their scripts on stage.  And so there's absolutely, yeah, no autocue; all memorisation. 

Helen Tupper: One more for you.  True or false: you've got to have slides or images and things behind you for it to be an impactful talk?

Maryam Pasha: This is absolutely false and this is one that I get quite a lot.  We're so used to using visuals and slides, and they're definitely seen as a crutch, I think, for speakers, when actually sometimes you just doing the storytelling is so much more powerful.  And so I would really ask speakers, "Are the slides for you or are they for your audience?"

Sarah Ellis: But are there some things, Maryam, that you see, and that you go -- but there are certain qualities or characteristics that do make for just a really good and compelling presentation?  Like, what are the things that you do look for?

Maryam Pasha: So, yeah, there are definitely some principles.  Even though there's no one way to be a great TEDx or a TED speaker, there are definitely some principles we look at when we're looking at the actual content of those talks.  And the first one, and I think the one that is guiding for all of this type of format, is that you have one core idea; one core idea that is your through-line that connects everything in your talk together, and that is what you want the audience to walk away with remembering. 

What I think distinguishes TED and TEDx-style talks from others is that they are strict on that.  They don't let you go off on loads of tangents and around lots of corners, or try to fit too much in.  And if you are strict about that principle, that's how you can do something compelling in such a short amount of time. 

Sarah Ellis: And how do you talk to people about that process of what to keep and what to let go, because it will all feel, and I remember from us going through this process and the many, many drafts that we did, what to keep and what to let go is so hard; it's kind of hard to see the wood from the trees?

Maryam Pasha: So true.  This is one of the things that does make you a better speaker over time, is not actually the speaking, or even the writing; it's the editing and the curation.  It's that becoming an expert chooser of what you keep in and what you keep out. 

There are a couple of things that I always say to speakers.  One of them is, "This is not the last time you're even going to speak.  You don't have to fit everything in".  There's this thing like, "This is my one chance to say everything I've ever wanted to say".  You definitely don't have to do that.  But also, it will become more difficult for you as you start to keep it within the time if you have too much in there. 

So actually, the content gives you that signal to say, and you saw this in the rehearsals, there are a few speakers where, what we came to as a realisation as a group, was that this was actually two talks put together; and the minute you unmesh them, it became much more manageable to tell that story within the 12, 15, or whatever your time limit is.

Sarah Ellis: And so, when people are thinking about presenting as part of their jobs, what are the sorts of skills that you can see, also with the work that you do, that can really help people if you're thinking, "Well, I do have to present at work, and I really feel like it's not something I'm very good at"; what are the skills that people can start to think about?

Maryam Pasha: This is what I spend the rest of my time doing, is taking some of the lessons I've learnt working with amazing TED and TEDx speakers and bringing them into the workplace.  What I just mentioned around this one core idea, this is where I start also.  So, let's say you're in a work context and you're speaking in public.  I mean that's what I really think of as the broadest definition.  Any important conversation, networking event, presentation, it's not just about standing in front of a big room of people on a red carpet, right? 

You can start with thinking, "What is my one core message here; what is my one core idea?  What do I need the person I'm speaking to to walk away with remembering, from what I've said?"  Then there's a couple of points around that that can help you.  Think about your audience as well, especially in a work context.  Why are they listening; why are they there; what are their priorities; and how can you make them care about the thing you want them to care about, right?  How do you bring those two worlds together?

Then, the fourth point is around storytelling.  Bring your more abstract ideas to life with storytelling so that people have something to hook onto.  If you want people to remember you, they're going to remember a story, rather than this standalone abstract idea.  So use the story, the example, the analogy, to bring that to life.  It will make it more memorable and it will make it easier for you to get people to really leave doing what you want them to be doing, thinking about what you want them to be thinking about.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think so often, the kind of temptation at work is, we're trying to communicate so much all at the same time and we think perhaps we've got a limited amount of time with these people, perhaps you're presenting to some senior people, and you think, "Right, I've got to get through all these ten points.  If I don't get through every slide, I've not done a very good job", and I think if we can release people from that and kind of go, "What's the one thing, in a week's time, when I ask these people, 'What do you remember about what I said?' they're probably only going to remember one thing.  So what I actually just need to do is a really good job of communicating that one thing, of showing that I care about that thing and trying to bring it to life through examples".

Again, I think storytelling sometimes gets misinterpreted a bit as, "I need to craft this incredible story" and that can feel really daunting.  And I think the word "storytelling" feels quite big; whereas, I think what we're talking about is just small examples a lot of the time that you just show people what you mean.

Maryam Pasha: Oh, absolutely.  I mean, I had this shocked moment once where someone was working actually with some coaches around some public speaking and they were trying to teach everyone to fit their idea into the Hero's Journey.  And I just thought to myself, "This is just -- why would you do this to people; this is so hard?  An epic Hero's Journey that some of the best writers in the world struggle to write on, and you're trying to get this poor person who's writing about their quarterly report to fit it into the Hero's Journey".

Helen Tupper: "I'm a hero! This report, I'm absolute hero!"

Maryam Pasha: Right.  That is not what it's about.  There are loads of structures and things you can learn, but really it is that; it's what brings what you're saying to life?  A case study, even a piece of data is a great way to do that, right.  Storytelling is one of those other words that I always have to define when I'm working with people; it's not just fictional, "This thing happened to me and now I'm going to…" or like a direct personal experience.  It can be all these other things.

Helen Tupper: So, can we talk a little bit about presenting and confidence?  I don't think that all TED or TEDx speakers start off as super confident presenters, right, and I can see that in the rehearsals that we did.  Some people are nervous from the outset, and they haven't had -- they've got the story and they've got the idea and they've got the passion, but they don't start confident. 

So, how, in your experience, does someone go from being a nervous presenter, or somebody that has a confidence gremlin, to somebody that can stand on that red spot, talk to an audience confidently about that story; is there a process, or is it just practice?

Maryam Pasha: Yeah.  This is that thing about, "Are you just naturally a great speaker if you do TED?" but, this is another thing that we definitely work on.

So for me, confidence is two things: one is knowing what you're talking about and feeling confident and your content.  It's part of the reason why we work so hard to make sure those scripts are really tight for speakers, so that they're not paying attention to what they're saying anymore; they know it well enough that they can now start paying attention to how they're saying it.  But you can't go straight to the "how"; you have to start with the "what".  For me at least, content is everything. 

I recently re-watched Malcolm Gladwell's, one of his first talks on -- was it, "Happiness, Choice and Spaghetti Sauce", I think it's called?  Oh, man; talk about unbelievable!  Here is this guy, he looks like he hasn't slept in a year or brushed his hair.  I love Malcom Gladwell, no shade.  He is on a stage that looks like it's someone's garage, full of wires and crap everywhere, the quality is terrible, it's almost unwatchable from today's standards of 4K HD,; and then he starts talking and his content is so compelling that you listen to all 18 minutes of it without thinking once, "Well, when is this going to end?"  It doesn't matter all that other stuff, right; the content is so compelling. 

So you have to start with the content; you have to know your content.  If you're worried about confidence, start there; start with the thing you can control.  And then you move onto the "how" and the outwards things, and the first thing I always say to people is, "You are not speaking to a room full of sociopaths.  You are not speaking to people who are sitting there willing you to fail, even if only because they want to have a good experience.  Even if it's a selfish reason, nobody sits there and thinks, 'Oh, I can't wait until this people just falls apart on stage and starts crying'".

So, then there's a whole bunch of stuff you can do with nerves, from breathing, to having a mantra, to building a little ritual for yourself.  Start with the content, realise that those people are probably just saying, "Oh, it's really brave of this person to get up there and speak" and then also realise that all that stuff you often feel on the inside, the heart racing, the voice; people can't see it from the outside; it's all up here.  So sometimes, you just have to power through it and then realise, after a while of doing it, that no one actually sees any of that stuff. 

It still get it.  I mean, five minutes before every TEDxLondon event goes live that I'm hosting, I have this moment like someone's kicking me in the stomach and I think, "Oh, this was a terrible idea.  Why did I agree to do this again?"  Like, "Aargh!" and I feel like I want to throw up, and I've been doing this for ten years; but I know that that is how I feel five minutes before.  I let it pass and I do my thing.

Sarah Ellis: Maryam, I'm really interested to know, I think people often don't struggle necessarily with preparing for presentations, especially when they're nervous, because what's our response to being nervous; I'm going to over-prepare, if anything.  We're going to put all of our energy and effort into that and I think some of the things that we've talked about will help people with, well how do you helpfully prepare versus over-prepare; and I think there's probably a difference. 

What happens if you are, whether you're in a team meeting with four people, or whether you're presenting to 50 people for the first time, you forget your words, you do forget what you're going to say, or you stumble?  So for me, just to give an example, if I stumble or get something wrong, I go red, I blush naturally, I'm a blusher; and so I also have a physical reaction and you can never anticipate it, because you never know you're going to forget it, but maybe you make a mistake, or just something goes a bit wrong, or something throws you essentially.

In that moment, what would you say to people in terms of how do they recover and keep going, because I think that's one of the things that people really fear?  People can anticipate all of the scenarios, what could go wrong, what might go wrong, and I think that also contributes to this fear that people have.  What can people do in that moment; something goes a bit wrong; how do we respond?

Maryam Pasha: There are internal and external things you can do.  Internally, it's really important not to beat yourself up, because that is going to throw you off even more; so not getting angry at yourself for making a small mistake, right.  We're not robots.  It's actually very human to stumble and it's better.  There's a reason we find robotic voices slightly disarming; they don't make any mistakes, they never pause, they never go "um".  So, actually, you have to do whatever work you need to do, which is often tied up with a lot of other stuff, which I'm sure you've covered in other episodes, around not beating yourself up.  Everything else I'm going to tell you right now doesn't work if you're beating yourself up; that's number one, right, internally. 

Then you have your strategies.  The first one is, always have a safety net somewhere, right; an index card; a set of notes.  Depending on the situation you're in, they can be in a pocket, they can be on a lectern, they can be on the table.  Knowing that's there often stops you from worrying, so just have it there. 

Then in that moment, I got really good advice from a friend of mine who's also a public speaking coach, he said, "You can't jump over a ravine from the very edge" and when you stumble, that's what happens; a ravine is created in your content, and you can't just stand at the edge thinking, "Oh, what's next?  I need to jump over it".  Take a few steps back in your mind and just rerun the last thing you said.  And while you're doing this mentally, you can take a breath, or have a drink of water, or walk a little bit.  The momentary pause to take a breath, or to have a drink of water, seems like ages for you; an eternity.

Sarah Ellis: An eternity.

Maryam Pasha: An eternity for you and a moment for the audience.  In fact, often the audience is glad that you've given them a moment to catch up with everything you've said, so actually it sounds very planned.  So it's this combination of having a strategy in place of what you're going to do if you stumble, that can help you actually not do it in the first place and then not panic if it happens. 

Sarah, you said you turn red.  I always say, "Okay, so you turn a bit red, right?"  I always actually think, I mean people don't realise this, but nerves are a secret weapon.  People are not hateful by and large, so nerves can be really endearing.  Whenever I see someone who's nervous visibly present, I think what they're saying is more important than them; what they're saying is more important than their own nervousness; so they're doing this despite it.  When you see people who are really egotistical and love the sound of their own voice, that's way worse than being a bit nervous.

Helen Tupper: Can I ask a question about practising, because I think you can't practise all the presentations you're going to do, but some of the really big ones you might want to practise?  And we practised a lot with you and the team, and we got a lot; and also, we got a lot of feedback and it was really helpful feedback.  It was honest and it was clear and it helped us to improve.  And we also asked some other people for feedback as well; we shared our talk, of a version of it, on WhatsApp and some people that we trusted gave us feedback.

If somebody wants to give someone feedback on a talk, if you're going to practise it and you're going to give someone feedback, what you do think you've learnt about giving feedback to people in a way that can help them, because obviously it's quite sensitive, it's quite vulnerable to practise and get feedback from someone, and you give feedback to so many people; so how do you do it well, in a helpful way for people?

Maryam Pasha: Two things.  First of all, I would just say that me giving feedback is different than other people giving feedback.  I know that sounds like awful, but your personal trainer giving you tips on how to do whatever it is that you might want to do in the gym, whether that's fitness or strength or whatever, is going to be different than your friend saying, "Hey, I saw this cool video".  So, I always do say to people, "I'm going to give you both advice and feedback, because I've seen hundreds of talks and I'm going to do it in a way that works".

But I always say, when you're asking for feedback from others who don't do public speaking as their day-to-day, don't ask them for advice, ask them questions like, "Did I hold your attention?  Where did your attention waiver, if it did?  Could you follow my train of thought?  What is the key thing you took away from this?  Were there too many examples or not enough?"  So do you see, those kinds of questions are more about your experience as a listener than they are advice for what you would do if you were speaking, which is the most way people give feedback, which I think, actually -- and the reason I'm so angry about this is because it's incredibly derailing and I see it happen to speakers. 

Sometimes I'll work with a speaker and we'll have this incredible piece of content.  I'll go, "Okay, go and get some feedback.  Use these guidance questions, etc".  They'll go and they'll come back and the talk becomes a mess and I'm like, "What happened?"  And they're like, "Oh, well, this person told me that this was important and that I should do it this way; and that this bit needed more of this, so I should do it this way; and then…"  And I was like, "Okay, but they're not speaking; you're speaking".  

So feedback, when you're asking for it, ask for the things that the listener is experiencing.  And, when you're giving it, give feedback as a listener, not as the writer or the speaker of the content.

Sarah Ellis: So before we get to best pieces of careers advice, which we always ask our guests, we thought we can't really do this episode without talking about our favourite TED talks, which I actually think might be the hardest question we've ever asked a guest, because clearly there are so many brilliant ones.  I think I've changed my mind about ten times even though I wrote this question.  I was like, "We should definitely put this question in" and then I was like, "Oh, I don't really want to answer it because it's too hard".

Helen Tupper: That's such a Sarah thing, to write a question then to overthink the answer.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's very me.  So, we'll make you go first, Maryam.  What's your favourite TED talk, if you had to pick one?

Maryam Pasha: Right, okay, I have one.  I'm going to tell you that I update mine every few years because there's no point -- there are classics and they're everyone's favourites. 

Sarah Ellis: Okay.

Maryam Pasha: I would say, in the last couple of years, the favourite one I have is called, How to Deconstruct Racism One Headline at a Time, and it's by this incredible speaker named Baratunde Thurston.  It is about race in America, but it's more than just about that.  There's so much in this talk, from the way it's structured, to the way that visuals are used so effectively in a way that I've never seen have so much power to the storytelling, to the vulnerability and honestness, to the fact that it really gives you a way of questioning the way race is talked about in society and in the headlines in a very practical, almost -- you know how racism, there's that overt racism, and then there's that kind of insidious stuff that we don't even always know how to pick out, it helps you pick that stuff out, and I think it's just amazing.

Sarah Ellis: So, that sounds like a must watch.  Helen, what's yours?

Helen Tupper: Mine is Liz Gilbert doing the talk around Your Elusive Creative Genius.  And I think I read her book, Big Magic, before I watched her talk, and it feels like the precursor to her book, Big Magic.  But what I love about it is, she comes on stage and she's like, her hair's a bit messy and she's got this giant black jumper.  She's not thought, "I'm speaking on a TED stage and I need to really have this amazing outfit".  She just goes on that stage and she just sort of talks her truth, I would say, about creativity and where it comes from, and how you have to catch it when it comes, because it's this gift.  And I watch it and I love her and I love what she says, and it just makes me want to go and write and do something creative.  You watch it and it sparks creativity.  It's brilliant; I love it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I do.

Maryam Pasha: It makes you feel optimistic, right?

Helen Tupper: Yeah. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: It's amazing.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think that mine is sort of a more, I don't know if it's a more practical one, but certainly I really like it.  And to your point, Maryam, I think I'll go not maybe one from all of TED talks, but in the last couple of years that I've watched and re-watched, which is called The Human Skills That We Need Right Now, by Margaret Heffernan, and she's done, actually, quite a few TED talks, and I think it's because I want to be her.  So, I think I've chosen someone -

Maryam Pasha: I want to be her too.

Sarah Ellis: And so, I mean she doesn't really probably know this, but I came across her work, was introduced to her, we actually did have her on the podcast in lockdown one, as the pandemic started, talking about Uncharted, her book.  I think the experience I've had with her, as you know, the more you read, watch and listen to someone, the bigger fan you become and the more you feel that the work that she does is incredibly powerful. 

Even just talking to her, because you've seen behind the scenes, I also know that she's just an incredibly good person, because when I interviewed her at the start of the pandemic, she was like, "Oh, I'm also doing food…" she was supporting all the food collection for the local area to make sure that vulnerable people who couldn't get out and about.  So she was like, "Oh, yeah, I'm just writing this book and I'm doing all this incredible stuff.  Yeah, I'm just going to go and help Doris down the road, and this person".  

I was like, "Oh okay, so you're basically running your village that you live in in England, you've been a CEO in Silicon Valley and you've done all this work that's really powerful?"  So, I think, yeah, with Margaret Heffernan, I sort of watch it and go, "That's who I want to be when I grow up".

Maryam Pasha: I would like to also be her, Sarah, alongside you.  I totally --

Sarah Ellis: Maybe together?

Maryam Pasha: I love her and I got to see her deliver her last talk live.

Sarah Ellis: Did you?

Maryam Pasha: Because I'm not a geek about famous people, it doesn't bother me; but I have geeky people that I get star-struck around and she was one of them.  And, when she came on stage, I just was kind of gripping the handles of my chair, just being, "Oh my God, this is one of my favourite people!"  So, yeah.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, she's so great.

Maryam Pasha: She's all around amazing.

Sarah Ellis: And then just to finish, really interested to know; if you were to give our listeners a short piece of career advice, either some advice that you've been given that's really stuck with you, or just when you get asked this question, which I'm sure you do actually by lots of people, something that you think just will help people to navigate their Squiggly career that little bit better?

Maryam Pasha: Okay.  Mine is probably a bit out of left field.

Sarah Ellis: We love a bit of left field advice.

Maryam Pasha: Choose who you decide to spend your life with very, very carefully; and I think this is especially true for women.  Having the wrong life partner can really derail you and limit you and I see it all around me.  But, having someone who supports you and believes in you, when you don't even believe in yourself, and sees that potential and champions you; I know that I would not be where I am with my business today if my partner had not seen in me something that I couldn't even conceive of in myself at that time. 

It's not that he did the work, I obviously did the work, but he created so many opportunities for support and I felt like I could ask him for that.  And so I think, especially with younger women, I would say choose who it is.  I've spent plenty of time in my life with people who would have very happily limited my career to advance theirs.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you so much for listening today.  I really hope you found that episode useful, and that you got some hints and tips that you can apply into your day-to-day role, whether you're doing a TED talk or not, or whether you plan to do a TED talk or not.  If you have five minutes to do us a quick favour, of course we'd love you to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast.  We're at 493 ratings, which I don't like as a number; it's too much of an odd number.  I need us to get to 500.  So, seven people, I need seven people to go on and give us a review or rating, please, if you wouldn't mind!

Helen Tupper: Please; that was a very genuine please!  Do you know what, I was scanning through our review, and somebody's even said, "I hope this gets you closer to the 500".

Sarah Ellis: Because I keep going on about it.

Helen Tupper: It's so sweet.  It's so nice.

Sarah Ellis: It's a really arbitrary number that doesn't mean anything, but you know when you've just got to aim for something.  So, there you go; I'll be really happy when we get to 500.

Helen Tupper: When you have your 500 --

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: -- and then she'll talk about 600, 700, everybody!

Sarah Ellis: Oh no.  After 500, you've got to go straight to 1000 I reckon!

Helen Tupper: Okay, okay.  There we go.  I don't think we're going to stop talking about this for a while. 

Just before we do say a final goodbye, just a quick reminder of our Squiggly Career Advocate Awards.  So, we wanted to recognise and support 100 people who are helping other people with their careers.  Our mission is to make careers better for everyone and we recognise that that is not something that you do alone.  And we've seen, over the past eight years, the difference it makes when people help other people with their career development, where they take content from our courses and exercises from our book and tips from our podcasts, and they share it with people to help people with their development. 

So if you are doing that, whether it's using our stuff or you're doing it yourself, if you're mentoring people, or maybe you're managing people in a way that helps them to explore their possibilities; if you are helping people with their career development, we want to help you and we're running the Squiggly Career Advocate Awards to do just that.  We're giving 100 people 12 months of free learning with us; that's sessions that Sarah and I are running; that's exclusive content that we'll provide for you; everything to support you to support other people, effectively. 

The information is on our website, so you can go to amazingif.com/advocates, and we will also put the information in the show notes and the link in this podcast.  If you can't find any of that stuff, just go to Instagram @amazingif and you'll see it on our feed there.  But yeah, we'd love you enter; they're open until the end of March. 

Sarah Ellis: So, thanks so much for listening.  We'll speak to you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye, everyone.