Our top 10 learning highlights from 2024

Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:45: Format for the podcast
00:03:03: Book choices
00:12:15: TED Talk picks
00:22:41: Useful podcasts
00:32:00: Blogs and newsletters
00:37:36: People to follow
00:42:30: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Each week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and share some ideas and actions that we hope over the last year and over the last 470-plus-ish episodes --

Helen Tupper: Something like that.

Sarah Ellis: -- have helped you to navigate the Squiggly Careers that we all have with that bit more confidence and control.  And you can probably tell already from the tone, the relaxed tone, that it is our last podcast of 2024.  If you are listening to this on the day that it goes out, it's New Year's Eve, and your commitment to career development is impressive. 

Helen Tupper: Impressive, well done you!

Sarah Ellis: Well done you!  Or you're escaping your family and you're like, "Yeah, I just need to really listen to this for work"! 

Helen Tupper: Also, well done you! 

Sarah Ellis: Yes!  So we thought, what will feel useful at the end of the year, or perhaps just over the holiday festive season, a shorter practical listen?  And so, we thought we would do our top 10 books, podcasts and people from 2024.  Basically, what have we been learning from, who have we been learning from, what have we found useful?  It's sort of our curiosity-curated episode.  First time we've done one like this.  We often do a kind of end-of-year podcast, which you might have already listened to, where we reflect on our years and do some questions and some statements to help us think through our year.  But this is much more about things that I suppose have helped us.  And we hope that this might give you a bit of a list that you can also learn from.  Or maybe you put together your own list and you could share that with each other in a team. 

Helen Tupper: I actually found it a really useful personal process --

Sarah Ellis: Same.

Helen Tupper: -- to do this, because it reminded me of what I'd been learning and then it made me think, "Gosh, that took quite a lot of effort.  I should have kept a learning log, so I could have referred back to it.  That would have made life a lot easier in getting to all the insights of today's conversation".  And also, it made me think, I'd like to create a way of referring to these things more easily next year --

Sarah Ellis: Same, yeah.

Helen Tupper: -- putting all my links in one place.  I even thought, "I wonder if there's some AI thing that can automatically feed it into one of those apps, like Pocket, so I've curated all these things that I'm going to talk about now, and it automatically goes to a place".  So, I was going through it and thinking, "I'm sure there is an easier way of doing this than me going through my notes and my bookshelf, and all that kind of stuff". 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's what I did.  I stared at my bookshelf for a while, and I was like, "Is this really the best way to do this?"

Helen Tupper: Exactly the same!

Sarah Ellis: And I was also thinking, I was trying to also make sure it was things that had been in the last year. 

Helen Tupper: Me too. 

Sarah Ellis: Because actually, one of the books I looked at, I was like, "Oh no, that's actually more from the year before".  And so, yeah, I think there probably has got to be a better process.  But equally, like you say, it was quite a useful process.  So, the format for the podcast, we've each chosen a book, a TED Talk, a person to follow, a podcast and a blog.  As we go through, we'll talk about our respective choices.  We haven't shared them beforehand so let's hope we've not got the same things, because that could be a bit boring.  You start us off then, start us off with one of those Post-it notes you just showed me offscreen. 

Helen Tupper: Okay, my first Post-it note is my book of the year. 

Sarah Ellis: Okay.

Helen Tupper: It might be my book of the year because I realised, I didn't read many books this year.  I felt really bad about it.  I was like, "Oh no!"  But this one actually really stuck out, partly because it was a book I read on holiday.  So, I think you're in a slightly different mindset on holiday.  A lot of the time, I'm reading in a very efficient way because we're interviewing someone for our podcast.  But I picked a book I took on holiday, and it's called Same As Ever.  It's a book by Morgan Housel, who also wrote The Psychology of Money.  And subtitle is, "Timeless Lessons on Risk, Opportunity and Living a Good Life".  And it's basically a book that says, you know we always talk about everything's changing, the world's changing at a faster pace, we have a lot of that sort of narrative? 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: He's going, well, that is true, and there is a lot of change.  But also, there is a lot that is always the same, that regardless of the change, will be consistent.  And that some of the things, for example, are the predictability of human behaviour over events.  So, while you can't predict what will happen, you can predict how people will respond, because things like fear and greed are universal and continue.  Also, he talks about, I thought this was quite interesting, if not a little bit depressing, happiness and expectation.  So, he basically says that, "Happiness is more influenced by expectation than circumstances".  So, it's not how much stuff happens in your life that makes you happy or not, it's how much you expect that thing to make you happy.  So, if I go through, let's say our next book.  If I go through thinking, "That's going to make me so happy when that is published", then there's almost a potential expectation-versus-reality gap.  Whereas if you go, "I'm just publishing another book" and then any happiness I get from that is a bonus, rather than expecting happiness as an outcome.  So, just basically be a bit more balanced rather than expecting outcomes to make you happy. 

Then you'll like this one, another kind of same-as-ever principle from the book, "Storytelling always trumps statistics".  The power of a story wins out every time.  And so, I just find it quite a balanced book, and just some things that actually -- and he gives loads of examples that, from a long time ago, that these things are always consistent, even if we are living in a time of change. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's useful, isn't it?  I can imagine asking yourself that question like, "What stays consistent, what stays the same for yourself, for your organisation, your industry?"  It's quite a good reflection, because I think about, let's say the conversations that we have with organisations, and we have been having now for however long we've been running Amazing If full-time, three, four years, there are some things that have stayed the same.  So, we'll always be like, there are new insights, we're working new ways.  And I think especially as everybody talks a lot about AI, it's easy to forget some of those universal truths.  So, I think that's a good reflection.  I've not read that.  What was the book called again? 

Helen Tupper: Same as Ever.

Sarah Ellis: Same as Ever, nice. 

Helen Tupper: So, what was your book, book of the year, book of 2024? 

Sarah Ellis: So, when you say book, singular, obviously I cheated! 

Helen Tupper: The reader starts! 

Sarah Ellis: Yes!  I found it really difficult to choose one book, so I did cheat.  And what I have chosen, and I reckon it's okay, I justified this to myself, I have chosen a collection of books that all come out of Stanford. 

Helen Tupper: "I've chosen the library"!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah!  Well, they are all identical in format.  So, Stanford Design School write Stanford Design School guides.  And they all look the same, they're all the same size.  They're quite small books, they're very visual.  They are written by different people, so I am cheating a little bit.  But I've got three of them here in front of me.  One of them is called Experiments in Reflection; another, The Secret Language of Maps; and the third, Make Possibilities Happen.  And I think they are just books.  I discovered them this year.  So, you know sometimes you think, "How have I not discovered these books before?"  And they come out of the same school, the same institution, as Sarah Steinberg's book, Curious Acts for Creative People.  So, we have had Sarah on the podcast before, but I just hadn't discovered these smaller books.  And her book is much bigger and more, she brings together lots of different people.

So, from each of those books, I just picked out one thing that stood out to me that's got a Post-it note, they've all still got Post-it notes in them.  So, Experiments in Reflection, they have a really good section on questions, and they talk about how, "Good questions are ones that make you more curious.  They nudge you into a state of not knowing, so that you consider new possibilities".  You can ask good questions that do this for other people, and importantly, you can do this for yourself too.  And so, what I really like about their books is they are pithy, they are to the point, they ask you a lot of questions, but they give you diagrams and visuals and different tools to try out.  So, I think for lots of our listeners, if you like the Squiggly Career book, if you like You Coach You, I'm confident format-wise you would enjoy these books.  So, that was one insight on reflection. 

Helen Tupper: I'm having a little scan on Amazon now at these books.  I didn't know about this series.  They look brilliant, there's loads of them. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, they are brilliant. 

Helen Tupper: They look really good. 

Sarah Ellis: This is the one where in the summer, I think you might have been at Disney!  So, I discovered these in the summer, which actually was a good moment of, because we were writing our book, I think when you write a book, you read a lot more books as a result.  So, I've read loads more books this year, nonfiction books in particular.  I always read a lot of fiction because I was doing a lot of research for us.  And some of those books hit the mark and some of them have a paragraph that's useful, but some of them you go, "Oh, these are permanent place-on-the-bookshelf books", and that's what these have become. 

The Secret Language of Maps, I really like.  They talk about how, "No matter the type of data, it always needs a human to make meaning out of it".  And because it is a book about data, they just showed loads of different types of data.  Again, it's very visual, I found it really interesting, and they talk about how you could use data at work in lots of different ways. 

Helen Tupper: I mean, I'm ordering that right now while I'm talking to you for my husband for Christmas, because I've got time to get it, because he loves a map.  So, this is brilliant, present sorted.  I'm very grateful for this. 

Sarah Ellis: Yes, so they're really good.  And one of the diagrams I'm looking at now, they talk about exploring before you explain.  He shows there's somebody getting ideas, then figuring out if your idea is any good, try something even if it seems nuts.  So, they divide them down into one, two, three, four, make sense of a big pile of information.  I just think they're really, really smart.  It also shows sometimes, you don't need long books.  I'm a fan of short books that are just useful.  And then, the third one, which is about making possibilities happen, has a whole section on curiosity, which obviously I really liked.  And they talk about curiosity being essential for learning because, "It always leads you to something you didn't previously know".  So, when we talk about almost serendipity and wondering and always growing, always learning, I think we've talked a lot about the importance of curiosity before.  And again, it gives lots of examples. 

Each of the books, the books are written by different people, so they're not formulaic, they don't all follow the same formula.  So, this one, the Make Possibilities Happen, for example, is very neon, but it's got more big statements and sentences.  It talks a bit about what to do in kind of moments of rejection.  Yeah, so the design of each of them is a joy.  So, if you are someone who's interested in design, and they're not the same, but they are easy to spend time with, they're easy to pick up and put down again.  But I often did find, I've actually read them more than once, but you can read them in one sitting.  Because if you had an hour, I think you could make pretty good progress through them.  And they are definitely books to have.  Get the highlighters out, get the underliners, put the Post-it notes.  I really enjoy spending time with them. 

They've become a bit like -- there are three series of books where I pretty much always buy them.  So, I buy a lot of the HBR books.  So, there'll be like an HBR book on judgment or on self-awareness, where they collect together articles, and put them in one place.  And we've been in a few of those books, in things like critical thinking.  So, obviously I have actually bought our ones, but I also do buy lots of the other ones.  I often buy the DO books.  So, they're from David Hieatt, who's been on the podcast.  So, you've got things like DO Stories, DO Scale, DO Agile.  One that's just come out actually on DO Teams, which I've not read yet.  And the Stanford Design School guides, they're my three.  They're trusted sources of quality.  I like the style and I've got them all on my bookshelf.  And so, yeah, with my one book recommendation, I've now given you three book series and you've probably got about 50 books you can now choose from. 

Helen Tupper: It's a bit of an aspiration.  I would love us to have like a series, a Squiggly Skills series, where they're short books on the skills for careers.  That's one for next year.  We'll add it to the list of things that we're supposed to be writing about.  Okay, category: TED Talk.  This is where I've cheated a little bit, because I've got two, but I've got two for a reason, because the first one is really good, but it's a little bit heavy.  So, I've got one that I found really, I don't know, quite meaningful, and then one that was just a bit lighter.  I think they complement each other very nicely. 

Sarah Ellis: Okay.

Helen Tupper: Neither of them are really to do with work, but I think that's the nice thing about TED Talks, is you don't always have to watch the TED Talk that's really obvious about, like, work-based stuff in order to get some useful insights.  So, my first recommendation is called To Love Is To Be Brave, and it is by Kelly Corrigan, who is an author and a podcaster.  And the reason that I recommend this is I think it is a masterclass in empathy, which I don't think is one of my super-skills.  And so, just watching somebody talk through empathy in relationships, all kinds of relationships, like friends, family, partners, and she talks about seven words that you should say when you are hearing somebody share something that is hard for them.  It could be anything, it could be a work-based thing, it could be an out-of-work-based thing.  But seven words that you should say, which are kind of like the masterclass in empathy. 

She says these are brave words that you should say to create connections and support people.  And the words are, "Tell me more, what else?  Go on".  And it is just this ability to stay with somebody who is sharing something that is important to them and she says what brave people do in these conversations, where people are sharing, is they don't take over and become the hero.  And you know how you talk about the difference between a support and a shift response, the idea that a support response is staying with them, a shift response is moving it to you?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: I thought it resonated with me, they don't take over and become the hero.  But I just like the, "Tell me more, what else?  Go on", and just being able to sit with a conversation.  So, it's a really moving one, and I think she's brilliant.  She also adds in little moments of humour into what is quite a moving watch.  She's just very, very good.  And so after it, I thought, "Oh, you need a little bit of lightness", and so my lightness, a little bit of lightness, is How to Find Laughter Anywhere.  It's quite a short watch, about eight minutes, by Chris Duffy, also a 2024 new TED Talk.  And he just talks about the humour that kids can create because they're not self-judging what they're saying.  And he has some funny stories about things that kids say and things that kids do, and he talks a little bit about improvisation and this idea that a lot of the time, we're self-judging and we're modifying what we're saying, because we worry about what people think about us, all that kind of stuff.  And children don't have that filter.  And he kind of talks just generally about how, if you go through life with a bit less of a filter and caring a little bit less what you're supposed to say and do and what other people think of you, then actually, it's easier to find joy.  And it's a short watch and it's quite funny and it's probably not going to change your life, but it is a quite nice little pairing with a slightly more moving and emotional one. 

Sarah Ellis: I can't remember the exact research, but I'm sure I have read something where people are often at their happiest once they reach, I can't remember whether it's like their 50s or their 60s, but basically it's because they care less and have less of a filter.  Almost like, with experience comes letting go of being too critical of yourself, like you're so critical of yourself, particularly in your 20s, I think, or certainly I was, and you just start to be a bit more confident in who you are, like you say, probably just enjoy everything a bit more, not get quite as worried about everything.  And I'm sure that is a thing of age, and like you said, that's the same sort of thing, isn't it, just being prepared to just let go and laugh at yourself and laugh with other people, really nice. 

Helen Tupper: Yes.  Well, he says, "Allow yourself to be laughed at and know when to laugh at yourself", so it's exactly what you're saying, yeah. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, well you do, you definitely have to do that.  You know when people say, "You can take your work seriously, but never take yourself too seriously"?  My favourite people never take themselves too seriously, and I always hope that I wouldn't either.  But I'm deadly serious about work, I really care about what we do.

Helen Tupper: Sarah's like, "I'm deadly serious about work"!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, well I think you'd only have to read our WhatsApp conversations to realise we really care!  But equally, sometimes I think we are always good at still finding fun and laughing with each other, actually in some of the hardest moments, but in other moments as well.  And I think if you and I stopped laughing, I think that's when I get most worried, because we have always been able to laugh at each other and with each other.  I actually think that's helped us in so many situations. 

Helen Tupper: So, what was your TED talk? 

Sarah Ellis: So, mine wasn't recorded last year, but I did watch it for the first time last year.  So, I was reading a bit about, we did that podcast episode, When is Good Enough Great?  And we were coming up with this idea as part of the book, where we were talking about minimum viable progress, where it was like how to move things forward when you're feeling a bit stuck, or when you're procrastinating, when you're finding things hard.  And I had actually never watched Tim Urban's Inside the Mind of a Master Procrastinator TED Talk.

Helen Tupper: It's one of the most popular ones, isn't it? 

Sarah Ellis: It is.  I think it's two or three.  It's something like 75 million views, but I wasn't one of them.

Helen Tupper: What are we at?  We're at like 2 million, a bit of a way to go. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, but do you know what, I'll take it.

Helen Tupper: I'll take it.

Sarah Ellis: Talking about making you laugh, he has got that audience in the palm of his hand, making them laugh.  He's a really natural presenter.  He's actually nice, you know, nice to watch, someone who looks very comfortable on stage.  Now, what was interesting about it is the thing that has really stuck with me, and he definitely self-identifies as someone who really procrastinates, he always leaves everything to the last minute, etc; but the insight that stayed with me was when we procrastinate, there's basically two types of procrastination.  There's procrastination when you've got a deadline, which actually people who do procrastinate find their way when they've got a deadline, because he talks about this thing called the panic monster.  So, you have the instant gratification monkey, who stops you making progress, and your rational self that tells you, "Do things in stages".

But then if you have a deadline, like for us for example, this year, we did have a deadline to submit the first draft of our book, or every week, you and I have a deadline to do a podcast every week, so every week we have that, there is a moment where if you are procrastinating for too long, the panic monster kicks in and you basically do make progress.  But then, there are things that you procrastinate on where there just is no deadline.  And he said, that's actually where people start to really give themselves a hard time about their procrastination.  So, that could be something like just want to exercise more or get fitter, but there's no deadline.  If you're running a marathon, there's a deadline, but often there's not.  And he was saying what was interesting is when he first started writing about procrastination, he does it in a very light-hearted way, but he got a lot of serious responses, people going, "This is really impacting my life.  This really does get in my way".  And he said, we need to sometimes almost create a deadline that is going to kickstart ourselves into action on those things that don't naturally have, like, really obvious deadlines. 

He showed something that I think is really powerful, at the end of the TED Talk.  And I am going to spoil it, I am going to show what it is.  But essentially, he shows your life as a calendar with loads of little squares on a screen.  And he goes, "Isn't that the ultimate deadline?  That's not that many boxes".  And I can't remember whether the boxes are a week or a year, but it's kind of going, "Well, look, this is your whole life as a calendar, roughly, depending on how long you live for.  Is that quite a good motivator to stop you procrastinating on that thing, because this is it, this is how long we've got".  And so, whether it is you've always had that dream of doing that thing that you just haven't started or feel like you've never been able to prioritise, it's a very sort of zoomed out perspective, but it's quite surprising. 

I think one of the things that I was proud of last year, well, this was still just about in this year, was doing more memorable experiences with my friends and my family, which I'd sort of stopped doing for a while, partly because of life, partly running a business, having small kids, all that kind of stuff.  And I was a bit like, "But why am I not doing those things?  I've got access to them, I could make them happen, I'm thinking about making them happen and never actually doing it".  It served as a useful reminder for me of going, just be careful you're not putting your energy and efforts into everything that's too short term or just in the now, when you don't want to do that exercise or when you're thinking or haven't got time for it.  Almost seeing a live calendar is a very good reminder of why you should go out for the walk, why you should see your friends, those things that don't automatically have deadlines and that are easy basically to put off for another day. 

I know Tim's work, so I've got Wait But Why on my Kindle.  I've actually also ordered -- they've managed to figure out -- they only did it on Kindle originally, they've now printed it.  It's actually quite an expensive book, but he explains why, basically because they've printed it properly and it's got loads of diagrams in.  So, he is worth a follow generally, and his blog is incredibly popular.  But just that one talk, I'm like, it was so visual, the talk was, and I think there is something for everyone in that talk, and it's just really stayed with me. 

Helen Tupper: So, I did that exercise, joining some career development dots, I did that exercise this year.  I was at a conference where they got us to colour in those boxes on your life in weeks --

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah.

Helen Tupper: -- and then talk about it and mark out moments and see how you were, what you've got left, based on various things.  It was a really interesting discussion.  But on Wait But Why, there is, I will link to it in the PodSheet that supports this episode, but you can download the template and there's a whole article about how you can use it for your reflection.  It's called Your Life in Weeks and it's by Tim Urban

Sarah Ellis: There you go.

Helen Tupper: So, let's just move on to our third category.  We have done TED Talks, I can get rid of that Post-it note.  Let's talk about podcasts.  So, what is a podcast episode or podcast series that has been useful for you?  Shall I go first? 

Sarah Ellis: Go for it. 

Helen Tupper: So, mine is a series and it's on the How To podcast, which comes from The Atlantic, which I quite like to read The Atlantic.  I often find they have really, really good articles. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, they do. 

Helen Tupper: And How To dives into all kinds of things, but they've got a series that's actually kind of active at the moment.  I think it might be series seven of the podcast, but it's like a 'best of' series.  So, it's like their, "Best of How To".  And so, there's four in the series, there's four episodes that are live at the moment.  There is the How To Spend Time on What You Value; How To Rest, which is with Alex Soojung-Kim Pang, who we've interviewed before; there's How To Build Community; there's How To Waste Time with Oliver Berkman; and they're kind of summaries.  But the reason that I really like it is because it's quite a nice sort of end-of-year, start-of-the-new-year listen.  It's very balancing, like listening -- it's quite a calm podcast, people aren't overexcited.  All these episodes are all about how to find space and meaning, but in quite a practical way.  I've found them just nice conversations to listen to.  They haven't radically changed my thinking.  I haven't gone, "Oh, that's something I definitely didn't know before".  But they've more reminded me of some principles of rest, or that wasting time can be as important as being productive at work, sometimes even more so. 

So, it's quite a comforting listen.  I think the authors, they've got lots of authors that they talk to on the podcast, are very, very interesting.  And there's just a few little, nice questions and quotes in there that have stuck with me, in the Spending Time on What You Value, which is with Arthur C Brooks, who I love what he writes in the Atlantic as well; but, "If you had an extra hour a day, how would you use it?"  Just as thoughts on what you value and what you prioritise.  And he talks about the difference between what you would do and what you should do.  So, for example, what most people would do is they'd probably just spend it on work.  They'd probably just do more of what they're already doing.  

Sarah Ellis: Oh, I was just thinking I'd probably just go for another walk or read.

Helen Tupper: Would just go for another walk and read another book?  Read another book, I know you would.  But he said actually, the thing that is proven to make you happier over the long term is your connection with other people.  So, what you should do is spend that time reaching out to somebody or connecting with them. 

Sarah Ellis: Okay, I didn't think of that!

Helen Tupper: That is the thing that actually makes you happy over the long term in your life, but it's not the thing that people generally choose on without thinking about it.  But it made me think and I enjoyed it, and I actually found it just a relaxing listen.

Sarah Ellis: I'm going to listen to those, they sound great.  And I know some of those people and I know I'll enjoy spending time with them, so that's good.  Podcasts are interesting for me, because a bit like you were saying, you've not read loads more books, I haven't listened to loads of new podcasts, I think partly because of how I listen to podcasts.  And I listen to them as almost an escape from work.  And so, it's actually quite rare that I listen to a podcast to do with work.  It often tends to be very intentional.  Our friend, Bruce Daisley, sent us a podcast link the other day for Knowledge Tree podcast, which is very good.  And I probably will listen to that episode, because he sent a specific episode going, "Oh, this is good if you write books".  And I thought, "Oh, okay".  I believe his recommendation, and we do do that thing. 

So, I tend to listen to lots of comedy podcasts and food podcasts, things that I think are not that useful for work.  And that's not something I plan to change, because actually I really enjoy that and look forward to it.  But I think it is sometimes good just to mix up what you are listening to.  And so, I've got two, both of which are listening to people who are outside of my normal world, both actually personal world and professional world.  So, This Cultural Life is a Radio 4 podcast, and most of the people, 90% of the people who are on This Cultural Life, I haven't heard of, but their work is fascinating.  So, maybe they have designed the sets for Beyonce or Taylor Swift's show, or --

Helen Tupper: Es Devlin?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, so Es Devlin's been on it, yeah.  She's been on it, who we do actually both, well, we don't know, but we both know of her. 

Helen Tupper: I wish I did know Es Devlin! 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, she's very, very cool.  And a famous person I listened to recently that people will know, so Bill Nighy was on it.  And what's really interesting is, it's sort of a meander through somebody's cultural influences.  And they've often done really interesting things, worked with really interesting people, and they're talking about where they get their inspiration from, what has impacted them.  They're very reflective and creative conversations, but they're at a very different pace to, I think the pace that we spend our days.  They're slower in tone and even the pace with which the presenter speaks and the person speaks.  They're very explorative.  And there's very rarely anything that afterwards I think, "Oh, I'm going to use that in a workshop or write that down for work", or even share that with anyone else.  But I think that's quite good for me; it's just an alternative. 

Then I've also tried to, because we do talk about this in workshops, and I was like, "When was the last time I did this?"  So, often we will say, "It's really good every so often just to have a random act of curiosity".  Like, This Cultural Life isn't a million miles away from things that I am interested in, so I don't think that counts as a random act of curiosity.  I think it has to be something that you're like, "I would not normally listen to this.  This is not something I'd normally choose to spend time with".  And you're just doing it just to be like, maybe to put yourself out of your comfort zone a bit, or just to do something a bit leftfield.  And so, I did listen to The Rest is Politics.  And if someone said to me, "Do you want to listen to The Rest is Politics?" the answer would have been, "No".  I get worried with politics that people are going to argue, and I've got conflict as a confidence gremlin, so I never want to hear people arguing in my spare time or my personal time ever.  And I was like, "Oh, everyone's going to be probably quite -- it's probably going to be quite challenging conversations".  And also, I'm not really interested or immersed in the world of politics. 

So, I knew it was a popular podcast and I knew Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart, who are the two presenters, I knew of them because most people in the UK would have done; they're quite high profile figures.  And then, I did listen to some of the episodes and it surprised me.  I enjoyed it and I found them interesting.  And they had some politicians on who I think I have seen in other contexts.  And I do find it quite hard where I feel like everyone's disagreeing for the sake of it.  But on the podcast, I think people have more space to be themselves, they're not arguing with someone else, they're being asked.  So, they've got the freedom to share their story and their perspective.  And they do ask these politicians a bit about why they got into politics and what they care about.  And you listen to them and you're like, "Oh, these are people too", which I think you do know, but often maybe you don't hear that story. 

Some of the stories are actually really inspiring, like why people get into politics and some of the things that people care about and things that they've done, and people have worked really hard to get to that point.  They do try to give those people space.  They will gently disagree, or they might sometimes prompt or say, "Oh, you know, there's a different perspective".  But they also have people like Reid Hoffman.  I listened to Reid Hoffman's episode this year, who's the founder of LinkedIn.  His episode is really good because he's obviously not a politician, but he is interested in politics.  They've had Bill Gates on.  And so, I've not kept listening to it every week, it's not become a regular podcast for me.  I do now look in and see who it is and think, "I wonder if they'll be interesting". 

There was one guy who they did a two-part episode with, who they both obviously really admired.  And I'd, again, never heard of this person, a guy from Scotland who I think was talked into being an MP.  They were like, "Come on, you would be good at this".  And he obviously had done a lot of public service, really been there for his community and did some really interesting jobs.  And so, it's sort of converted me, and it's reminded me why sometimes you do have to spend time with things that you wouldn't normally.  And you won't like them all, and that's okay, but yeah, it was a real standout for me because I almost put it on angrily, I was like, "I don't even want to listen to this".  And then I was like, "Oh, this is actually quite interesting". 

Helen Tupper: On that kind of like, you've got to kind of listen outside of your normal bubble, my mentor, Julie, recommended me the Legacy podcast.  And I listened to quite a few episodes of that.  And that's where two historians talk about two historical figures.  So, like I listened to a little short series on Cleopatra, one on Cecil Rhodes, one on Napoleon Bonaparte, and it's of no relevance to my world, but I was like, "Oh, interesting.  Oh, that's why it's called that".  You know it's like sometimes, these historical figures have a relevance today?  And some of the things that we say or know, I hadn't joined the dots.  So, yeah, that was another one.  I think sometimes you can get to those leaps by asking other people, "What do you listen to?" and then go, "I've never heard of that".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think I'd stolen that from someone else.  Because often in our workshops, we'll say, "What's one thing you're reading, watching, or listening to that's helping you to learn or to stay curious?" and lots of people share The Rest is Politics.  And so I thought, "Oh, do you know what, there's enough swell of people saying, 'This is worth your time', that it's worth giving a go to". 

Helen Tupper: So, let's talk category number four: blogs and newsletters.  I mean, this is such a cheat because you and I are supposed to have one for each one of these, and I'm not sure on any category yet, have we just mentioned one, but we're allowed.  So, first of all, Peps Mccrea, I don't know if that's how to say his full name, so I'm sorry, Peps, if that's incorrect, but he has a newsletter called Evidence Snacks and it is all about education, so it's education, psychology and learning, very much in the context of schools. 

Sarah Ellis: Interesting.

Helen Tupper: But I think there are some very interesting insights.  He's very good, they're very specific, they're very well researched.  You can go on Evidence Snacks, you can get the newsletter, and I often scroll through and think, "Oh, I didn't know that [or] that's a good idea.  How could that relate to the world of work?"  So, I think if you're interested in learning or education, Evidence Snacks is good, sign up for the newsletter.  It's very good.

Sarah Ellis: We'll be subscribing straight after this.  Sounds good. 

Helen Tupper: I like it.  And then the last one, less you, more me, is Wonder Tools by Jeremy Caplan.  That is all about, well, at the moment it's quite AI-focused, I would say, but tools that help you be better at what you do.  And that's because they make you more efficient or they make your life easier.  Again, weekly newsletter.  I really liked his roundup of the top 10 of the year.  Also, I was going through it and I was like, "Oh, five of those I have used".  So, there was like perplexity.ai, there was ideogram, for example.  I was like, "Oh, I don't feel so bad".  I've actually, this year, experimented with five of those, and I might get on board with the other five now if they're in the top ten.  So, I really like Jeremy Caplan.  More if you like tech, experimenting, efficiency, that kind of stuff, I would go for his. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, with blogs?  The thing that I found hard with them, because I subscribed to quite a few, is then making sure you actually read them. 

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: And I think that's quite an interesting learning habit is thinking, "Well, okay, there's more newsletters than you've got time for".  But with the ones that you do receive, how do you make sure that you do then -- because I know the quality of some of the newsletters that I get is really good.  But sometimes, I just find it tricky to then figure out, "When do I…?", like a when question, "When do I read this?"  So, one of the things I'm thinking I might do in 2025 is just have the same moment every week when I think, I'll put all my newsletters in the same folder and I'm just going to spend half an hour reading those newsletters. 

Helen Tupper: I thought the same thing, because I don't think I have that dedicated time.

Sarah Ellis: Same.

Helen Tupper: And I think some weeks, I do miss them.  But actually, this exercise of looking back at them I was like, "Gosh, these make my brain better, they're worth me spending time with". 

Sarah Ellis: And you don't always have to read them.  So, if you don't already watch Christine Armstrong's blog on LinkedIn, then you can subscribe and she emails the video to you, if you just find that easier.  There are lots of video blogs out there now, and Christine's is just so good.  She's so funny.  And actually, I do quite like the fact that it's video.  There's probably something about that that sometimes I'll watch that on a train.  They're always short, and they're a really good mix of topics, and she always manages to read the room, read the Zoom right, I think, in terms of kind of what's on people's mind.  So, I do tend to always watch Christine's, and hers is always on a Friday, so I know it's coming on a Friday.  And it's the right sort of thing that I want to watch on a Friday as well, so I think she's got the day of the week right.

But my blog choice was the Farnam Street blog, which is Shane Parrish's blog.  And the reason I think I like that blog so much, and actually it's an interesting one, I often go directly to the website, old-school, rather than necessarily it coming into my inbox, because I trust his take.  So, his blogposts are usually based on conversations he's had with the actual people, or he's done a lot of research.  They are simple, they are easy to read, but they're always thoughtful.  And I don't think they're simple, but without being overly simplified, which I think is quite hard to get right.  And so, one thing I was reading a lot about this year was, he talks about the Richard Feynman -- and Richard Feynman is a Nobel Prize-winning scientist -- learning technique.  And so, I was getting my head around that learning technique, and I was like, "I know where'll have a really good summary of this, the Farnam Street blog", which it does.  We'll put the link to that in the PodSheet and the show notes from today.

What I often find is by reading that article or that blog from Shane, I then start clicking around.  So, I was reading about the protégé effect, which is essentially if you know that other people are going to learn from us, we do a much better job of learning for ourselves, because we then feel a sense of responsibility to share something in a way that makes sense.  And then I discovered a really good Guardian article on the protégé effect, about how it can help you learn almost anything.  And then, and I bet you'll remember this, Helen, because we talked about this earlier in the year, I discovered this idea of rubber duck debugging, which is when computer programmers practise explaining their code line by line to a plastic toy.  And what they're doing is they're verbalising their thinking process, because then they find it easier to identify potential problems in their programme.  So, they're not even teaching a person, they're teaching an inanimate object.  But actually, it really helps them to not only, I guess, learn but also to go, "Oh, actually I've spotted I've got a gap [or] that doesn't quite work. 

So, that's the reason I really like the Farnam Street blog.  I think I often do start, it's a really good starting place for your knowledge, and then you can figure out, "Do I have enough now for what I need to know, or do I want to dig a bit deeper?"  And there's often good links and it takes you in good places.  So, it's a very reliable and trustworthy source of learning, if you're just interested in lots of topics around learning and career development, I think. 

Helen Tupper: So, last category is people to follow, so maybe some people that we started following this year or a recommended follower for people for next year.  So, I have two. 

Sarah Ellis: Of course!

Helen Tupper: Standard; it's supposed to be one, I've got two!

Sarah Ellis: I mean, why we structured this podcast five things, I don't know.

Helen Tupper: I don't know.  It's like, "500 things to help your learning next year!"  Well, there's five categories. 

Sarah Ellis: We probably need to read something on prioritising, or go back to Essentialism, which is a very good book, which is like, "Prioritise!  Filter!" 

Helen Tupper: What I'll do is I'll make the PodSheet look really neat, and really summarise and pretend that -- I'm going to prioritise for us after the episode!  So, I've got two people, they're people that I follow actually on LinkedIn.  So, that's where I find it most useful to follow them.  And they are both, again, to be honest, they're on the lens of productivity, efficiency, systems, which is something that just naturally appeals to me.  And the voices are Chris Donnelly and Ben Mear.  I think they do very useful summaries, posts, actionable tools that make me want to try them out.  I read the posts, they're not too long and I think, "Oh, I want to try them out".  They're also very popular.  I think Chris Donnelly's got something like 978,000 followers on LinkedIn.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, okay!

Helen Tupper: They're quite popular.  So, it's likely you may already follow these people, but if you don't, join the masses, only if you're interested in that productivity, systems, growth, you and your growth.  Probably are, because that's why you listen to this podcast, so they could be worth following.  What about you? 

Sarah Ellis: Mine is a bit of a cheat.  So, one of the things that if you have been a devoted Squiggly Careers listener this year, you would have heard me discover the checklist.  And I feel like I am, in lots of ways, the least likely person to want a checklist.  One of my values is variety.  I don't like the idea of feeling constrained.  And I think my starting assumptions with checklists is like, "Oh, I don't want to do a job where I have checklists, I don't want checklists to be part of my life".  However, I then read The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande.  And he talks about basically how checklists help us in so many different situations, and particularly around avoidable failures, "Which are both common and persistent", he says.  And he said, "Not only that, they are demoralising and frustrating".  And I think I felt that. 

So, we've got a lot better this year at sharing our mistake moments.  So, we share our mistake moments using Teams.  So, with everyone in Amazing If, everyone reads everyone else's mistake moments.  And the change that we've made this year, which I think has been really helpful, and it sounds like a small thing, but I think it's made a significant difference, is we used to just do it in our all-company channel, whereas we then created a channel in the one that everybody can see that specifically says, "Mistake moments".  So essentially, all of our mistake moments are in the same place, so it is much easier to spot your own threads and themes for yourself, but also across the company.  And I think a lot of our mistake moments are things that are avoidable and preventable and understandable at the same time.  But neither of us like it, we both get really frustrated with ourselves and like, "Why are we not doing this?" 

What I have found really interesting is the answer to, "How are we going to fix this for the future?  What is the action we're going to take?  What have we learned?  So, what do we want to do differently?"  So, many times this year, the answer has been, "Actually, we would really benefit from a checklist, because this is a repeatable action, this is something we do more than once.  And historically, actually, we haven't been great at writing things down, as a company".  So, it is a way of kind of codifying, "Okay, if you're running a workshop in a room, don't forget this is the tech that you need", just really simple, basic stuff.  If you said to me, "Do you think you should be able to remember this?" I always think, "Well, yes".  But you don't, the point is you don't, you do get things wrong.  And so, I've then started following Atul's work.  Particularly, you can go back on things like the New Yorker.  He's actually been writing for a really long time, not just on checklists, but on how to get things right, how to do things in a better way.  I think it's just that this idea of checklists has both surprised me and stuck with me, and I can already see how we're finding it really helpful. 

My win, I think, for this week was Helen saying to me yesterday, "You've converted me to the checklist".  And so, I can also see how it's benefited us all together.  And it's made me really interested in his work.  I'm probably a bit more open to following people who do talk a bit more about, like you said, processes or things that are more about efficiency, whereas perhaps previously, I've sort of limited my own learning by going, "Oh, I'm not as interested in that.  That sometimes feels a bit formulaic for me", but it also just shows why you should just be really open to just trying different things out, because it has been really, really helpful and I'm convinced it makes us a better company as a result. 

Helen Tupper: So, hopefully we have given you lots of things to subscribe to, to look at, to read, as a result of listening today.  What we will do to make that easier for you is we'll put the links to a prioritised version of what we've talked about on the PodSheet, and we'll also do like a swipeable summary of this and we'll put it on our @amazingif page on LinkedIn.  And we would love to know what you would add to that list.  So, if you have got a particular book or a podcast or a newsletter or a TED Talk that has really resonated with you this year, please go to the Amazing If page on LinkedIn and add it, so that the community can have a bigger curated list of resources that they can learn from in 2025. 

Sarah Ellis: But we just wanted to finish the year by saying thank you.  Thank you for spending time listening with us, learning with us.  We love our Squiggly Career community and we really appreciate you showing up every week, you recommending, you rating, you do all of those things.  Lots of you have come along to events this year and it's been lovely to meet some of you in real life, which has been amazing.  Lots of you come to PodPlus on a Thursday, where we kind of do a workshop version of the podcast, and that's always great to do too.  So, podcasts are always a highlight of our week, not just the moment we're recording, but also the feedback and the ideas that we get from all of you.  And we know you always have a choice about how you spend your time.  So, thank you for being part of the Squiggly Career community and we will see you in 2025.  Bye for now. 

Helen Tupper: See you soon, everybody, bye.