Neurodiversity at work

Helen Tupper: Hi, it's Helen from the Squiggly Careers podcast.  I hope you're well.  If this is the first time you've listened, let me tell you about the Squiggly Careers podcast.  It is a weekly show where normally me and Sarah, but I've got some guests today that I'll tell you about in a minute, we dive into the career topics that we know people need some support with.  So, whether it's about interviews or difficult career conversations, or making a decision about your development, we have got some insights, we've got loads of ideas for action, and we just want to give you a bit of confidence and control over your career development.

All of our episodes, and there are over 300 now, they come with PodSheets and PodNotes.  So, if you want to reflect in your own time after you've listened, then I would suggest downloading the PodSheet; it's got some coach-yourself questions, it's got all the ideas we talk about in summary.  If you just like a swipeable thing to come back to, then PodNotes are great for that; we often put them on social media on our LinkedIn pages and on Instagram too. If you want to talk about this, we have PodPlus.  It is a community that runs every Thursday morning for 30 minutes, and we'll dive a bit deeper.  You can ask questions, you can connect with some like-minded learners.  It's just a really safe space to get some career development support and it's all free.  We really, really care about everybody having access to the career support that they need, which is why we do this podcast and it's why we create all of those resources too.

So, I'll make sure that you've got the links to that in the show notes to this podcast.  You can email us, we're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, and it is also on the website as well, which is amazingif.com.  Hopefully, that is enough! Now, let me talk about what we're doing today.  I've got some guests, I've not got Sarah; I've replaced her with some experts because we're going to talk about neurodiversity, and you're going to hear a conversation between me and Dr Samantha Hiew and also David Pugh-Jones. 

So, let me tell you who they are, and then I'll give you a quick summary about the areas that we talk about, and then I guess we'll just listen and see what we can learn together. So, let me start with Sam.  So, Dr Samantha Hiew is the Founder of ADHD Girls and a neurodiversity and ADHD keynote speaker and consultant.  In her work, she's always bridging two worlds, those with lived experiences of neurodivergence, and those who don't, because her aim through her work is moving towards integration within society. Then, I've also got David Pugh-Jones on the podcast, and alongside David's 25 years of working for organisations like Microsoft and BuzzFeed Europe in advertising and content and creative, he is also a Trustee and a Founding Executive Member of one of the fastest-growing charities in the UK; Neurodiversity in Business.  It is a business and industry forum for organisations to share good practices on neurodivergent recruitment, retention and empowerment, and it launched in Parliament in March 2022, and it's now got over 500 corporate business members, including Google, IBM, Virgin, GCHQ.

I really wanted to bring these two different perspectives together, the neurodiversity in business, like what can we do in organisations, and somebody with lived experience to say, "What did I need; what have I benefited from; what could we have more of?" and you'll hear that hopefully in the conversation that we have.  First of all, we talk a little bit about language, so when we talk about neurodivergence, what do we mean; and also, how important are labels?  We talk a bit about what can make work harder for people who identify as neurodivergent, or maybe people who don't even know they are, but what typically feels harder for people who are neurodivergent; and then what we can do to help them in the conversations that we have, the environments that we create. So, I hope that you will learn as much as I did from the conversations and if you've got questions after today, if this has just sparked some thoughts, then let us know. 

Email us at helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, and we'll try and answer them in PodPlus, and I might also be able to go back to David and Sam, I'm sure they'll be happy to help, so we can get some of those questions answered for you.  But onto the conversation. Hello, Sam; Hello, David.  Welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.

David Pugh-Jones: Hello.

Dr Samantha Hiew: Hi, thanks for having me.

Helen Tupper: Pleasure, I'm very excited to talk about this.  I've been doing quite a lot of research.  I also feel quite a responsibility when it's a topic like neurodiversity to understand enough that I can ask inciteful questions.  So, you can decide at the end whether my questions are inciteful enough, but I'm hoping we can dive into both of your different experiences and insights, so that our Squiggly Careers community can understand a little bit more about neurodiversity at work, and understand what they might be able to do differently to support more people to succeed in Squiggly Careers with a neurodiversity hat on. So, can we start with language and labels, because when I was doing my research and I was diving into this, there's a lot that fits under neurodiversity.  So, what I was looking at was talking about autism and dyslexia and dyscalculia and dyspraxia and ADHD and Asperger's and Tourette's and OCD and bipolar; there's a lot.  And I was thinking, is it okay just to call everything neurodiversity, or is it important that we distinctly label different conditions that fall under that, if we're going to help and support people with this more at work; David, what do you think?

David Pugh-Jones: Well, I was going to offer it over to Sam first, but I suppose there's a twofold answer to this.  One is it's okay to talk about neurodiversity and all the elements that envelope that; but equally, it's also right and good to talk about the challenges people have in business, whether they've been diagnosed or whether they haven't or that they're contemplating it.  So, I do think that there are individualities between them, but yet there's a unique story and a compelling point to talk to businesses about the fact that there are so many people that are so different. Whether you're neurotypical or whether you're neurodivergent, it doesn't really matter.  But the really premise here is that we focus on making the workplace, whether it's remote, whether it's hybrid, whether it's in person, as accommodating and as actionable and as personable and the right environment for those individuals, whatever they've been diagnosed with.

Dr Samantha Hiew: Yeah, I was going to add actually, I mean that's all really inciteful, David.  And, Helen, you mentioned whether people would be happy to be lumped under the umbrella of neurodiversity.  I suppose it works for the employers and employees.  For employers, they want to include everyone, so when they go into thinking about something, like an event or a process, they would generally put neurodiversity as the umbrella term.  And then for individuals, sometimes neurodivergents would prefer to have the specific label for themselves as a validation for what they go through. But there is quite a bit of trepidation and anxiety around disclosing and opening up about your specific neurodivergence at work.  But ultimately, if we need to get the support, then we need to say what it is.  People would need support based on what they need, rather than the label anyway.  It can be a double-edged sword in the sense that it can help the individual; but then, if they are then disclosing to a workplace where people don't understand, then the label can conjure up the history of what these people have encountered with ADHD or autism, and it can be accidentally discriminatory.  That's why we need to have more awareness in the workplace, so that people can get on the same playing field and we are on the same starting point with what we understand around neurodiversity.

David Pugh-Jones: If we can foster working environments where neurodivergent individuals can thrive, then it's to the benefit of both the person and the employer.  So, there's an element of empowerment, there's an element of recognition and there's an element of education, help and guidance.  And if you start to contemplate all of those elements, then we're definitely going to get to a better place for everyone involved.

Helen Tupper: It's interesting just to go back to what Sam was saying, because I felt when I was looking at things that there was almost a tension between on one side going, "Why don't we just create environments at work where we say, 'No two brains are the same', and so we have to create a space where everybody can be supported with what they need from work?"  But then, on the other side of it, some brains are specifically different, and then we need to understand those specifically, we can't just go, "Everyone's different, it's fine".  Actually, there are some very specific differences that might need different levels of support, which is where the labels come into it. Then I tied myself up in knots, because I was thinking, "The more labels we have, the more alienating that might feel to people who don't understand that, so then they don't have the conversation", so I do think it's hard.  I mean, it must be very hard for individuals who are trying to work in environments that aren't designed for them.  But then for colleagues that want to support them, to try and understand that when language could be an immediate barrier to, "Okay, well how is dyscalculia different to…" whatever else it might be, I just thought language can sometimes be so important, but it can also be quite exclusive, I think.  If you don't understand those terms, you might think, "I'm silly, because I don't understand that, so how can I possibly support somebody with it?"

Dr Samantha Hiew: You're right actually.  You looked to the future, I think.  What you are saying is kind of an advanced understanding of, yeah, no two brains are the same, but we're not there yet, especially with ADHD.  We can see the evolution of understanding from the beginning, where it was known as a "naughty-boy syndrome", then it was behaviour, then it was disruptive, then suddenly women could have it as well and adults could have it.  So then, as a society, it's catching up with this understanding. With neurodiversity, the whole concept and revolution has boomed in the last few years, but it's a concept that has existed since the 1990s.  But the reason that it's come into relevance now is because we've had this global pandemic and everyone has had some form of mental health challenges.  Now the neurodiversity movement is getting bigger, because more people are getting diagnosed, and they get diagnosed and they are then told that, "Actually, you can get reasonable adjustments in your workplace when you have a label".  But then there comes that anxiety of them disclosing! But eventually, we are in a society that's divided between those who are neuro labelled and neuro not yet labelled, and it was Judy Singer who said this in a podcast.  I suppose she coined the term of neurodiversity, and that is where we are going towards.  Eventually, we are going to realise that we are all different and in order to have a workplace that supports everyone, then we need that systemic shakeup.

David Pugh-Jones: Just on that note as well, if you think about when we were back at school and all those individuals listening, you're going to remember friends, colleagues, individuals, classmates, even whether it was school or university friends, and you're going to remember incidents and you're thinking, "Hold on a minute, were they being difficult; were they in the wrong environment; were they feeling stressed?"  All of those scenarios, all of a sudden you're seeing just a huge plethora of people, individuals, business people, fabulously talented individuals who are now coming out and saying, "Look, I'm neurodivergent, I've been diagnosed with X and all of a sudden this answers a lot of things in my head as well as those things", and I think it's just that awareness that we need to just keep pushing. It's not to say we're trying to put more barriers in place; in actual fact, it opens up those environments for people to discuss and talk about things, where they can sort of become a little bit more of a chameleon and understand which way or how they need to shape conversations, or how they need to speak to people, or even the environment that they need to be in.  And that actually for me is completely and utterly refreshing.

Helen Tupper: And, David, you touched on that this is better for business, and when I was looking at some of the stats, it is significantly better for business if we create environments where neurodiverse people can be at their best at work.  I was looking at some research done by JPMorgan Chase that neurodiverse hires were on average 90% to 140% more productive than employees who'd been at the company for five to ten years; and they've found that diverse organisations were more profitable and innovative and that they did a better job of retaining their top talent.  So you're like, "Okay, this just makes commercial sense". But then you look at the stats about neurodiverse people more likely to be unemployed, and even in a job they're more likely to be underemployed, their strengths are not utilised.  So, what is going on; what is the legacy in organisations that is not letting neurodiverse people succeed in businesses?  Is it recruitment, is it structures, is it education?

David Pugh-Jones: Well, I mean I think it's a combination of all of the above.  So, you just look at our corporate members that have signed up; 500 corporate members since we launched in Parliament just over a year ago.  We're talking Sky, GCHQ, Oracle, Unilever, the list goes on and they recognise that.  But equally, if you think about it from the hiring process, interviews can be daunting at best for all of us.  And if the interview process, let's just assume pre-COVID when we didn't all turn our lives into this virtual world that we now live in, attending, getting on a train or travelling to an interview, meeting someone that they'd never met before, getting questions that they hadn't prepared for; and even now, in this hybrid world that we live in, it still can be super-daunting for those individuals that can't even get past the first hurdle into a company to showcase their skillsets. Then of course, they're getting to that environment, and then they need to navigate how they work with people, the conversations that they're having with different departments and products.  There are far too many hurdles right now that we still need to work out.  We just need to understand how we can approach it in a different manner that is better for all involved.

Helen Tupper: And so, if we just imagine a typical listener's working week.  I would imagine a typical working week, back-to-back meetings, quite a rushed lunch, probably in a meeting with the camera off so no one can see them eating, more emails than they can possibly respond to, Microsoft Teams or Slack or whatever's going on, messages pinging everywhere, on their phone; that's most people's working life.

David Pugh-Jones: Are you talking about my yesterday?!

Helen Tupper: And mine most days, yeah!  But that's the thing, that's hard for everyone.  It's exhausting and tiring, and it often feels just difficult because you can't get everything done.  So, I appreciate we're talking about a range of different conditions within neurodiversity, but someone listening might be like, "Well, that's hard for me too".  But someone specifically who would identify as being neurodiverse, what would make that harder; why is that harder for somebody who's got ADHD, for example, Sam; what's harder about that working week?

Dr Samantha Hiew: Very interestingly, I was looking at your stats.  85% of people on the autism spectrum are unemployed compared to 4.2%.  I wonder if those stats include the people who are diagnosed later in life, who have been able to hide their challenges; eventually it comes out as mental health challenges.  Part of the reason why it's difficult is because those of us who may not have known the way our brains work for decades and are finally understanding it, we are dealing with increased mental health challenges, like depression, anxiety and sensory processing disorder.  That becomes more pronounced as we, as women, get into our late 30s and 40s, where the impact of hormones are also there to compound the challenges of ADHD and autism. I think a lot of it is all the things that David mentioned, the inaccessibility of the hiring processes and the retention issues that circle back to culture. 

I ran this ADHD Best Practice at Work Conference last year and the biggest takeaway in that is that neurodivergents feel that their biggest fear is that they are misunderstood, because they try very hard to conjure up this image that they are coping.  And while I was working in corporate, people always said that I looked so calm and I was doing so much work so quickly.  But then I always think about that image of a swan paddling very rigorously underneath, but on top you just can't see it. But I was also dealing with panic attacks and the anxiety that was manifesting as tummy aches and sore throat for the entire time I was in the contract, because I was also dealing with a line manager who was very of the micromanager type.  I couldn't have that kind of person breathing down my neck, and that added to the anxiety of never knowing when you're going to be called out and embarrassed in a meeting, because they're also quite direct and blunt. Later on, someone said to me that they suspect that maybe that person is on the autism spectrum, but also said in a way that was obviously very stigmatised, because I got on with her, but I didn't like the way she managed.  But then other people would say that, so we're dealing with people who are not understanding what it really looks like.  If people are acting that way, they are stressed themselves.  Managers themselves probably have more stress with the team members and needing to do so much.  And in order to appear like they're doing enough, or doing good work, then that stress will have an impact on how they talk to people as well and how they relate.

David Pugh-Jones: Look at it this way.  In realms where we were expected to work 9:00am to 5:00pm and take lunchtime at lunchtime, people who are night owls, they're larks, they work best at different times.  If you want to get the best out of me, do not ask me to do anything between 3:00pm and 4:30pm; fortunately we've just missed that window.  But the point is, I'm not firing on all cylinders then.  So, the expectation is that an employer or a leader of a team that has a very diverse bunch of individuals, whether they are neurodivergent or neurotypical doesn't really matter in this scenario.  It actually is how do you change and adapt the way that you manage in work or collaborate with your peers, or any individuals in a business, that aren't the same, and that's the beauty of this; you've got to work with people. I think that makes us better human beings in the long run anyway, is not to assume that we're all lemmings and that we all love turning up at 8.45am and starting at 9.00am in the morning, because it just doesn't work like that.  The sooner the businesses work out that they start to adapt and use talent in the right manner, then they're going to get the best out of them.

Helen Tupper: So, I imagine in my head, I've got three parties in this conversation about how we make work work for everyone.  So you've got the manager that's a big enabler of it; you've got the individual who's owning the outcome because it's their career; and then they've got a team that can support the system to be in place.  So, we start with the individual which requires for an individual to say, "This is what I need from work".  That requires a level of confidence, I suppose.  Like, Sam, for you now to not feel that you're going to be discriminated against but to say, "This is who I am and this is what I need", that takes confidence. So, if you were to advise somebody that was maybe Sam ten years ago, maybe with that manager, Sam ten years ago, and we're trying to help them to be confident to have this conversation, "This is who I am, this is what I need my work to be", what advice would you give to that Sam?

David Pugh-Jones: Be gentle with them, Sam!

Dr Samantha Hiew: Well, I was very not gentle with myself.  I was the kind of person who would overwork and burnout and try and give people too much.  And in fact, I was doing two persons' job ten years ago, but then getting paid less than the other person who was not actually doing the job.  So, if I was to say that if ten years ago they had some understanding of neurodiversity, I would only open up if I feel safe to do so.  Ten years ago, if we had the choice that we have now, I would say that every company needs that awareness session where we frame neurodiversity from a position of strength and abilities. Intersectionality could do to someone's life circumstances and how this impacts the way they show up in life, because we are all humans.  That's how I introduce my talk, "I'm a neurodivergent, but I'm also human", because we all have been through stuff, we have different circumstances. 

Some of us are parents, some of us are caregivers; these also impact what we need at work.  But ten years ago when I was single and I didn't have all these problems in my life from looking after little people and juggling a business, I would always come from a position of strength, remind them of why they hired me, what I could do better than anyone else and like you say, 90% to 140% more productive; that was me.  But I also need to have a break sometimes! But yeah, start from there and then say, "I have some challenges around doing this.  It doesn't impact my intellectual capabilities or my ability to shine, but if you could support me with this area of my work, then it could help me give you more of what you need, and help me put my strength where I need it to be".  And, Helen, I love your podcast because I had a Squiggly Career myself, and ten years ago was the start of that, where I went into 16 different industries.  And if I had the confidence then to say, "Actually, I didn't really like this part of my work.  If there's another department or somewhere else you could recommend me within the same institution, then I don't have to leave and start again in a totally different industry every single time". I did that so many times, I had an existential crisis.  And I think career development is one of the biggest things that would help neurodivergents, because we are either the kind of person who loves to do this one thing for 20 years, or the type of people who take a break every year-and-a-half because of burnout and boredom and then try something new.  So, I've done that; I'm the latter.

Helen Tupper: I love that.  So, from Sam's perspective there, it's focus on the strengths, which I absolutely love, and then what support do you need to be even better than you already are; I guess that's the perspective, so I love that.  Now, David, let's imagine I'm the manager.  I'm a manager who cares.  I really want to care, but I don't know how to have this conversation.  What would your recommendation to me be if you're like, "Helen, okay, you want to make a commitment to doing this, these are the types of conversations you should be having with the individuals in your team"?

David Pugh-Jones: I think open, candid about what environments make you perform your best.  So, an obvious one is, "Help me help you".  The scenario there is you're really just trying to build up a relationship so you can recognise these.  And invariably, when we were all in these office environments, it was probably easier, because for a year-and-a-half, we only saw everyone above the shoulders, so we didn't see the hands, we didn't even see things like stimming.  There's lots of individuals that stim, yet now they're in these working environments that --

Helen Tupper: Maybe explain that term, because someone who's listening might be thinking, "I don't know what that means; explain that term".

David Pugh-Jones: Yeah, I mean interestingly enough, if you don't mind me saying, Sam's got a lovely little squidgy football in her hands, and I've got a squidgy fish in here, and sometimes it's like a stress ball.  But stimming effectively is an action that showcases you, and I'll give you an example.  My son, who's 12, is autistic, and when he's happy he stims by flapping his wings.  Basically, it looks like he's flying, and it is the most beautiful thing in the world.  But if you put him in a scenario in a supermarket and he's stimming and making a monotone sound, and then it goes up and down, he'll get looks thinking, "That's not normal".  But he is in the most joyous environment in his world right now and the way that he showcases that is by flapping his winds. So, that's just one example of stimming, but there are many forms of that that adults probably do, and in some cases they may be doing it listening to this and not knowing that they're stimming.

Dr Samantha Hiew: Yeah, in my talk yesterday, women were saying that they bite their nails, they play with their hair and they scratch themselves.  There's so many ways to release that anxiety and that excess energy that you are dealing with at all times.  And especially when you're asked to sit down and do some work and concentrate, the movement actually charges our brain, so we need to do that.  And some of us have learnt to hide it in school and in the workplace.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, releasing the excess energy makes a lot of sense because there's so much and that's just the way that it comes out; that definitely makes sense.  Okay, so I'm going to have that conversation as a manager, so I'm going to be able to understand a little bit more about what helps individual people. So, now let's imagine we're all in a team together.  It's going to be a great team, maybe!  We're all in a team together, what are the conversations we should be having collectively?  I'll kick off with something that we've been trying to do in our team.  We've been working with an organisation called The Other Box, who have something called The Diversity Dictionary.  It's really cool, it's all online and in our team meetings, we've been watching a little bit of The Diversity Dictionary and having a conversation about, "Did we all get that?  Did you do anything different?  Have we got any questions about it?" and basically just working it through in our team meetings.  It's an ongoing thing, it's not like, "On Wednesday the 21st, we'll watch it and then we'll never talk about it again", it's just something we regularly have in our team meetings. So that's how we've been, to your point, Sam, about awareness is important, that's how we've been trying to have a safe conversation about something that might feel quite uncomfortable.  Have you got any other ideas, as a team, what and how we could be talking about this so we create that safe space on an ongoing basis?

Dr Samantha Hiew: Yeah, I love that, Helen, I love that you said, "Safe space", because it's almost like, I think someone said Chatham House rules, where when we enter this room, these are the rules, nothing comes out of it, we won't be judged, it's a safe space, we're not going to do anything just because you said something after this.  So, yes, it's about challenging some of the biases people have without even knowing they have.  They don't even really know that until they're being asked, and how do you do it in a non-confrontational way?  I follow this person called Esther Perel.

Helen Tupper: Oh, I love Esther Perel, don't get me started; she's like my hero!

Dr Samantha Hiew: I mean, I bought these cards but I think she has some on her website as well where you can play these games where you have questions in it that your team can play together to really understand where each other is at on a topic.  And this can be constructed and tailored to your preference, and as you say, you have a Diversity Dictionary.  For us it could be, "What are the common misconceptions or myths?  Maybe neurodivergents are being misunderstood at work". Another question which is a good one is actually, sometimes when neurodivergents do get the support, other team members who don't have a label or a diagnosis, they might feel that is unfair to them, because then someone has to take over that workload, and sometimes it's the person, because all this rests on how good your management is and trying to divide the responsibilities amongst people and really work people to their strengths.  If not, then there are going to be team members who will feel like this isn't really a fair distribution.  How does it work for the context of the team if you're going to make this adjustment for one person?  That is a very tough thing to do for a manager; they have to think on the benefit of everyone. So sometimes, it might even be helpful, maybe the second or third conversation down about reasonable adjustments, to invite the neurodivergent to co-create this solution that would help the team, because we love to solve problems anyway.  And if we can make the ND feel included and actually actively sought their opinion on how to help, in order to help them, like what David is saying, "How do I help you help me?  How do I help you do your best job?"

David Pugh-Jones: Help everyone, Sam!

Helen Tupper: So, it's less of an isolated intervention.  It might start from an individual's perspective for what they need from work, but then it becomes more of a collective opportunity about, "How could this be better for everybody?"

David Pugh-Jones: Yeah.  And the other thing is, not to be too much of a Dolly Downer, because I'm a huge optimist here, but we're not going to achieve everything, this is not all fluffy clouds and rainbows and unicorns, tomorrow.  But the good news is, at the speed of not just large corporate businesses in the UK, but globally, with the help of Web3, I'm trying to help build out this experiential digital experience, where people can help with accelerating whether they can get diagnosis.  So, there's lots of environments in the digital realms that will help people understand how they can better position themselves in the working environment. Of course, alongside that is the element of education.  So, we continue to run research programmes, we just did a piece with Birkbeck College which is absolutely fascinating, and Sam's seen some of that work.  Honestly, if you go to our site and go to the research piece, you can go through and see it all; it's incredible.  And that was with 1,000 neurodivergent people over 130 corporate businesses that got involved in that, and it was supported by some fabulous companies, including Rolls Royce and Sage.  You can see people want to experience it, they want to celebrate it, they need to empower it and they need to demonstrate that they understand and recognise that they can make a difference. So, if we combine all of those facets together, I think all of a sudden we are getting into a very, very good space in the working world.

Helen Tupper: I agree, and we will put all the links to that.  We'll put it in the show notes, we'll put it in the PodSheet so people can find all these things easily. But I wanted to end on a point that you've made actually, Sam, which is about Squiggly Careers.  Now, I am entirely biased, obviously, because I think Squiggly Careers benefit everybody; but when I was looking into neurodivergence and the fact of actually these kind of underemployed talents that often people have, one of the principles of Squiggly Careers is that we should focus on talents not titles, that actually it's the talents people bring; that's the benefit for the organisation, not just the titles that they've held.  And we're doing a big Global programme, called Squiggle and Stay; we're doing some experiments with about 16 organisations across the world to basically help people to develop in different directions within their organisation.

So, to your point, Sam, when someone's experienced a bit of boredom, which we all get, and when somebody's experiencing a bit of burnout, which lots of people experience, and perhaps more in this context, that there are different opportunities for them to develop within an organisation so they don't feel they have to leave to escape that.  So, we're trying to work on this, and this is why I think that Squiggle and Stay, and Squiggly Careers, are better for everybody. But I just wondered whether, from either of your perspectives, the opportunity for people to develop in different directions, the opportunity for people to be defined by their talents and their titles, whether you thought that basically I'm trying to get to, do you think Squiggly Careers, rather than this ladderlike, linear world, where we plan everything out and we're progressing, and the assumption is that we should all become more senior and that everybody wants to get to the top, can you see the benefit of Squiggly Careers for people who are neurodivergent, as well as neurotypical?

Dr Samantha Hiew: Oh my God, sorry, I just really struggled to not blurt out, "Yes, yes!"

David Pugh-Jones: I know, I was thinking the same thing!

Helen Tupper: I should have stopped talking sooner!  Sorry, I get so passionate about it!

Dr Samantha Hiew: It's so cool, though.  I wish this was more of a thing back when, way back when, because if it was accepted, I didn't have to struggle so hard between each pivot, and how to make everything I did, which was so random at the time, how to make it relevant in my career.  When I applied for that job in communications, I was surprised I got it, because I was doing science, then I went to writing, then I did a bit of acting and presenting, then I did a bit of translating.  Then in the end, I somehow managed to convince them that I'm a good communicator by doing all that. But yeah, there's one thing that I found recently and love, but not many people know what it means, is career lattice.  You might have seen it, because the career ladder is I think ten years ago what we thought was supposed to happen in someone's career and everyone seemed to be a specialist in something, and then they just go up the ladder; it's all about butts on seats and eventually climbing the ladder. But career lattice is where you have a squiggly path within your organisation, where there's an option for you to develop in various areas the skills that you want to adopt, the things that you want to do that could be a different interest to what you started off with.

David Pugh-Jones: I love that, I absolutely love it.

Dr Samantha Hiew: Yeah, and just having that career lattice is so helpful in building the skills that we need for the future of work.

David Pugh-Jones: Yeah, and do you know what, advice to those that do hear this and including advice to myself, I like to say it out loud once in a while just to remind myself, is it's okay to go sideways to do something.  I was interviewing an old agency friend last week and they were working on this thing called side hustles.  So, you don't have to then get off the lattice or the ladder, whatever you want to call it, but you can find those things that you love and enjoy until they get to a point where they give you the financial freedom to say, "I don't need to do this any more, I need to do this". You'll be amazed that invariably, most people's careers -- most of my stuff has been either by my lovely friends and the beautiful network that I've had or created or built up, and also by pure and utter accident.  Sometimes, these things just fall into your path and then you think, "Do you know what, I'm going to give it a go", and sometimes you've just got to embrace that and go for it.

Helen Tupper: So, I think we're at the end now of the conversation.  So, for people, any final words of wisdom, if someone is listening to this, maybe they're thinking, "I think I'm neurodiverse but I don't know, and I'd like to find out how I can", or somebody who's like, "I really care about this and I want to help"?  I think we've shared a lot so far, but is there anything else that you would like to share to support people who might be in either of those situations?  Maybe, Sam, if I go to you first.

Dr Samantha Hiew: I mean, there's so many things I'm thinking about from both perspectives, because the reason a lot of neurodivergents don't stay in employment is because they get burnout and they leave their work.  And in the workforce now, they are trying to promote neurodiversity and trying to be inclusive.  But also, the whole selling the strengths thing can go a bit too far where we're literally employing people based on their strengths, because we've heard that they could work to 140% to 200%, then we expect them to do that! But there are a lot of neurodivergents who then don't actually agree with all this, because we are so easily burned out, and we will give you everything you expect of us because we don't want to disappoint, we just want to do our best.  So, at the end of the day, we are needing to employ people based on what they do really well, but also make sure that they're happy and healthy; that means so much more than actually to employ someone based on their strengths because, yeah, it's important we work to what we're really great at, but also we need someone who has our best interests at heart as well, because otherwise it won't last.  Within a year-and-a-half or two years, you'll just be so burned out that it manifests as depression and you just have to leave.  Wellbeing is the only way to keep sustainability.

Helen Tupper: So, it's employ people for what they do well, but create a culture where we support wellness, and those two things together have to be in place?

Dr Samantha Hiew: Yeah, absolutely.

David Pugh-Jones: Yeah, I think health and happiness.  By the way, Sam, that is on point.  We all need to be happy and the happier we are, the better we perform, it doesn't matter in whatever it is in life.  But the other thing is, don't underestimate the power of the people that you have around you, whether it's friends, family, or people you just enjoy their company, because talking about whatever it may be is a release mechanism that actually helps you to make conscious decisions about what you would do next. It may be a little bit unbiased in the sense that you don't realise and you just need that rubberstamp of approval from someone in your ear that's just giving you that tiny, little nugget of information for you then to go on and do that.  And we are fortunate, I think, in this post-pandemic world that we have become kinder to each other.  It sounds terrible that we had to have something as awful as that to get to this point where we recognise the true value in what people can do.  And now, we just need to embrace the fact that everyone is very, very unique, very talented, they have their own unique skillsets; and now, what we need to do is harness what we're brilliant at. You know what, if you're average at something, just give it up and try something else.  Don't focus on the mediocre, focus on what you're awesome at and trust me, everyone is awesome at something!

Helen Tupper: I love that, I think that's a brilliant point to end.  Well, thank you so much both for your time and we will make sure that everybody has links and resources so they know where to go next after this conversation.  But thank you.

Dr Samantha Hiew: Thank you, Helen.

David Pugh-Jones: Thanks for having us.

Helen Tupper: So, thank you so much for listening to today's discussion, I hope it's sparked some thoughts from you, I really hope it gives you some ideas and actions you can take back into your organisations as well.  All the resources will be on our website, amazingif.com, and if you wanted to get in touch with us at any time, we're just helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com. In next week's podcast, we're going to be talking about how you can de-risk your career decisions. 

So, if you have got a decision for your development that is on your mind and you're not sure what to do and you've maybe got some worries that are getting in the way, that could be a good episode for you to listen to.  You can subscribe to our podcast so that you never miss out wherever you listen, or you can go to our website and you can get access to PodMail that comes out every Tuesday, and it will talk about the topic that we're covering, and it will have the links to all those resources that I've mentioned.