How to work your ‘weak’ ties

00:00:00: Introduction 
00:01:21: Weak ties vs strong ties explained 
00:04:15: Five ways to work your weak ties… 
00:06:07: 1: Get connected by curiosity 
00:11:04: 2: Reconnect with past relationships 
00:14:25: 3: Go from strong ties to weak ties 
00:18:20: 4: Say yes when you'd normally say no 
00:21:46: 5: Use social media to warm up a weak tie 
00:27:37: Summary 
00:28:00: Final thoughts 
 
 

Interview Transcription 

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And you're listening to the Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we explore the ups, downs, ins and outs of careers today, and share insights and ideas for action, and some tips and tools for you to try out too.  Today, you get out thoughts on the topic of weak ties, and how you can work your weak ties to support you in your career development.  And if it is not a term that you are familiar with, do not worry, because Sarah is going to talk about what weak ties are and why they are helpful, before we get into all those tips and tools that I mentioned. 

But before she does that, if it is your first time listening, you might not know about the many things that we produce to make your learning for the podcast last longer.  You thought you were here for entertainment; we are here to help you learn!  So, if you want to reflect on what you have heard today, or maybe you've just not got a pen and paper at hand because you're listening while driving or walking your dog, or whatever it is you're doing right now, you can download our Squiggly Careers PodSheet, and it summarises some of the key points, and it also includes some coach-yourself questions, so that you can reflect a little bit on what you've heard. 

If you want to be part of a conversation about this topic, you can join us in our weekly PodPlus session, which is a 30-minute Zoom with Sarah and me, sometimes both of us, sometimes one of us, but it's every Thursday at 9.00am and it's on Zoom and it's free; and all of the details for both those things are in the show notes. 

Sarah Ellis: So, let's get into what weak ties are, because I always think it doesn't sound like it's good, does it, "Oh, you're a weak tie"!  I don't know if I want to be someone's weak tie; it sounds like being the weakest link.  But it is a positive thing and weak ties are really important.  And the concept comes originally from a sociology professor, called Mark Granovetter, and he published a paper, called The Strength of Weak Ties.  So, let's just start by thinking about what is the difference between strong ties and weak ties, and then why weak ties are important enough for us to spend a podcast talking about them. 

So, strong ties are the people who know you well, who understand who you are, and I think they've usually supported and sponsored your work in some way.  Weak ties are more casual contacts, but who we have a common point of connection with.  So, the interesting thing about weak ties is they know things that we don't know and they know people that we don't know, and that is really valuable for us in terms of our learning, growing and also spotting new opportunities and possibilities. 

When I think about the strong ties for me and my career, they're the people that I go to to build my belief if I've got a bit stuck, if I need some advice, and those people are also probably going to really challenge me, because they know me well enough to be honest and to give me that candid feedback that we all need from time to time.  So, strong ties are still really important. 

But those weak ties are people where we probably haven't spent that much time with them.  They won't know us anywhere near as well, but they will be connected to other people.  They'll probably have lots of experiences that are less familiar to us.  And so, when we spend time with out weak ties, they do build bridges, I think, to new networks, to new opportunities.  They're the ripple effect of having strong and weak ties, meaning that your career community will just look and feel much more diverse and interesting as a result. 

Helen Tupper: I think that's an interesting point actually there, which is not that weak ties are replacing strong ties, it's that you want a bit of both.  They both do something really valuable for your career. 

Sarah Ellis: And I think weak ties as well are particularly important if you are in any moment in time in your career where you're trying to change things up.  If you're trying to change things up in your career, either you feel like you want to make a big change in your career, you're thinking about a career pivot, maybe you're just thinking about exploring working in a different team, maybe you feel like you need an injection of learning, or you just need to spend time with people who are going to say things that surprise you, or have just got a completely different frame of reference to you; that's where I think weak ties are really, really valuable.  Then, I think there are times where you just need those strong ties by your side.  I just feel like they are there looking after you and guiding you and sponsoring you.   

So, what we thought we'd do today to make this really real and useful is we're going to do five ways to work your weak ties, which I just feel is the Squiggly Careers podcast at its best, us going, "There's this thing called weak ties.  It's important, now let's dive into the ideas for action and how to do this", because I do think if you are like me and you are more introverted, strong ties is probably me at my most comfortable and confident when I'm developing my network.   

I'm good at developing strong ties and I think I've said before on the podcast, I describe my approach to networking sometimes like a limpet; I'm really good at creating connections, then I basically never let go.  Whereas weak ties, I think, feels daunting, "I don't know these people, how do I make these casual connections?"  

Helen Tupper: It's so interesting, isn't it, because I feel like weak ties are really exhilarating for me.  But maybe that's more of the extrovert context on it, because I'm like, "You never know who you're going to meet and you never know what you're going to talk about, and isn't that fun?" and you're like, "No, not particularly"! 

Sarah Ellis: No, not fun; scary, and it makes me quite apprehensive.  So, I think this idea of weak ties, I think you can rationally understand why it's important, but I can imagine getting really stuck then on going, "Well, how would I do this; what would this look like?"  Maybe it's an introvert/extrovert thing, or maybe it's just something you think, "Well, I've just not thought about this for a while". 

Helen Tupper: Or, I don't know how. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, "How do I do this?" 

Helen Tupper: We will help you with the "how", everybody.  And what we've done is the five ideas for action that we've got, we have designed around some of the questions that our community shared with us.  So, we asked them, "What do you want to know about weak ties?" on Instagram, and people said things like, "I want to know how to do it confidently.  I need to do it efficiently, because I haven't got loads of time.  I'd like to develop ties in and outside my business", and also someone had specifically said, "What if you've been away from work for a while for an absence; where do I get started?"   

So, it's those sort of career conundrums that have informed the actions that we have developed for you.  Shall I go first, Sarah? 

Sarah Ellis: Go for it. 

Helen Tupper: So, I want to go back to that point that Sarah said, when she was talking about the definition of what a weak tie is, that it's some kind of contact that's connected by a common interest, and I think that is actually a really good starting point for thinking about how you can work your weak ties.  It's finding some communities that are connected by curiosity. 

So, maybe there is something that you want to learn, or something that you are particularly passionate about.  If you can find communities that exist, that thing that everyone's curious about can be your common point of connection.  And sometimes that makes it a bit easier to build those relationships, when you're starting from scratch, because at least there's a topic you can talk about.  So, I'll give you a really good example for me at the moment. 

I have joined this community, called Yellow Learning, and it's a four- or five-month learning programme, people all around the world.  You're put into quite a small cohort, and the groups are really diverse.  Everyone does really different things, we live in different places, we're in very different careers; but the thing that connects us all is we just have this passion and openness for relooking at what learning can be. 

When I say relooking at what learning can be, I've done everything from grab a random thing in my room and talk about how I'm feeling about my work and life right now, I picked a pair of Allen keys, that was interesting; to designing some sock puppets and having one that was my best-self sock puppet and one that was my worst-self sock puppet, and have them talking to each! 

Sarah Ellis: How have I not seen that on Instagram!  With all the stuff you do on Instagram… 

Helen Tupper: It's been on Instagram!  I think you just haven't looked at our Instagram for a while. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, probably. 

Helen Tupper: But it's been a really good way of connecting with different people and sparking some conversations and sharing insights with people that I probably wouldn't have met if it hadn't been for that curious community connecting us. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think I've done something similar where I'd noticed that connecting with weak ties doesn't happen unless you make it happen, and I think you have to be quite intentional about it; or certainly if you're someone like me, where you are less likely to spend time with weak ties, in terms of it's not a habit, it's not something you would necessarily actively seek.  And I noticed that actually, particularly from, I think, the pandemic and everyone working at home more, some of my ability to create new weak ties has definitely disappeared.  I've just had less informal coffee chats, you know, more of those kinds of incidental conversations. 

So, I joined, similar to Helen, but a very immersive learning programme for two days that was all about sustainability, sustainability in business.  And again, part of the reason for that was I was just really curious to learn more about things like, I learnt about systems thinking, I learnt a bit about design thinking, and I followed my curiosity without being too worried about being very purposeful.  Sometimes we feel like, "How am I going to use this in my day-to-day job?" and that is really important for lots of our learning.  But I think if you want to find new weak ties, following your curiosity just means that then suddenly you know five or six people who you didn't know before. 

What's interesting on working your weak ties, I actually had an email from one of those people today, so they got back in touch with me on LinkedIn, and I said, "Can you email me, because I always forget to do things properly on LinkedIn?" I need emails connected to my calendar; and then, we're just going to have a virtual coffee.  So again, that's connecting in a way that really works for me.  That's a new weak tie and we just both followed our curiosity and we have that as a point of connection, even though our backgrounds are really different. 

So, that girl that I'm going to be talking to, very interestingly, has just come back, I think, from four or five years in Kenya, working on sustainability in Kenya, so she's a real expert, very different working life to me.  And again, I just felt, "That will be interesting", and you don't have to worry, I think, too much where your weak ties might take you. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I think that's interesting actually, the person that said, "I want to do it efficiently".  I think sometimes, working your weak ties might feel, in the immediate term, a bit inefficient, because you're not doing it for the purpose of immediately getting something out of someone; you're just trying to spark a new relationship. 

I was just thinking, because our examples, mine was like, "I've joined a learning community for five months", and yours was, "I took two days out"; they might sound a bit resource intensive.  So, what you could do is join something like lunchclub.com which does the matching for you.  So, you put in what you're curious about, and it connects you to somebody who has those shared points of curiosity; and then, you can go and have a one-hour conversation.  So, that might be an efficient way of finding people, if you can't find communities like Sarah and I have done, or you haven't got the time to make that sort of commitment. 

Sarah Ellis: I also think we've made time for those communities, but we're probably only going to do that once in a year, once or twice in a year.  So, it's very occasional; it's not like we're trying to create a habit.  But I think it's noticing, "When was the last time I just followed my curiosity to create new connections?"  I remember thinking I can't think of the last time that I did that, so therefore I'm going to be proactive to make that happen.  It's worked out that therefore, we have those examples at our fingertips.  If you'd asked me three months ago, I think I'd have said, "That's a real gap for me". 

So, our second idea for action is about reconnection.  So, sometimes, rather than starting completely from scratch, so trying to build a new weak tie, it's easier to think about, who do we already know; who have we perhaps met before but we've not been in touch with for a while?  So, this could be previous managers, is always a really good place to start, previous manager you felt a point of connection with.  Perhaps you just got on well, or you think they might know some interesting people.  It could be people you've just worked alongside, people in previous organisations. 

It could even be, and I think this is true for lots of people during COVID, you know people you had connections with because you were in the same place, and then suddenly when you're not in the same place, those connections wane, because you don't see them when you're getting a cup of tea, or you're not walking around floors in the same way.  And I know lots of people said to me that was definitely true for them.  There were people that they quite enjoyed just having chats with, and because they then weren't part of their day-to-day jobs, those chats just disappeared.   

Again, we're all trying to get our heads around, how do we work, and we probably didn't quite make space or time for those connections, so reconnections could be really close to home; those people that in your team, or in your organisation, you're not spending that much time with, or they could be outside of your organisation. 

I think the reason that we don't do this sometimes is we feel maybe a bit embarrassed about the fact that we've not been in touch with someone for a while, and I don't know whether it feels a bit needy, or we worry that people are busy, and we're like, "Is that an okay thing to do?"  But I think, just remember that whenever you're asking for help in any way, or you're telling somebody that you are interested to learn more about something that they know about, that's a really flattering thing to do.  Most people will feel really good about that reconnection, because you've essentially gone, "I'm really interested to find out more about what you're working on at the moment.  I just thought it might be nice to reconnect and see what we're both up to and have a bit more of an informal chat". 

Maybe there's something even more specific that they're up to that you want to learn more about, but I think never let that potential of thinking, "We haven't been in touch for while" stop you, because I think the worst-case scenario is that you might not get a reply from somebody, but also you probably will.  The likelihood is they'll just think, "Yeah, that would be great.  I'd love to catch up with that person". 

Helen Tupper: And also, what's the worst that can happen when you reach out to reconnect with somebody, they're just going to go, "Hope you're well"?  It's not really a bad outcome to an attempt to reconnect.  I was thinking as well when you said that about, think about a place that you've been to and the way that you articulated it was a physical place, like a company that you've worked in. 

But I think you could also think about a place in time in your career, when maybe you were learning something.  Like, I've recently reconnected with my MBA Alumni community, which was a particular point in time in my career; or even maybe, there was a particular group of people when I first became a parent and I was navigating all of that stuff, and that was a point in time in my career, and I haven't reconnected with some of those people now, because needs change and lives change. 

But I think "place" can be physical, like a company I work in, a location I worked in; or, a bit more conceptual, like the place that you were in at that time in your career, and the community that you might have been connected to at the time, but you might have lost touch with as time has moved on. 

So, our third idea for action is all about going from strong to weak.  So, this is a bit of connecting the dots really between the two different types of community.  The idea here is that you've got those really strong relationships with those people who know you well and understand what you do, and you can leverage those people so that they can lead to new weak ties for you.  It's basically about asking those people, "Do you know anyone who…?" 

So, you might need to be specific.  You might need to say, "One of the things that I'm looking to learn a bit more about is this particular role or this particular industry" or, "One of the things I'm curious to learn more about is this particular topic"; you might need to just give it a bit of a frame.  But then what you want to do is go to that strong tie and say, "Do you know anybody who can help me?"  They are more likely to help you, because they're already bought into you. 

What I would say, my top tip here is some of your strong ties may be better at making those introductions and connections for you than others.  I think about some of my strong ties.  They are amazing people, but they're not particularly connected people, and they might be like, "Sorry, Helen, I'd love to help, but I can't", and I wouldn't want to put them in a bit of a tough spot.  But some of my other strong ties, they're like hub people.  They're those people that are always meeting other people. 

I think about my manager, James, from Virgin, who's been on our podcast, he's one of those people that just seems to know everybody, and he is generous enough to make introductions, he would do it all the time.  So, I'd be quite confident that if I went to him and said, "Do you know anyone who…?" not only would he probably have a yes, he would be generous enough and proactive enough to make that connection for me. 

Sarah Ellis: My top tip here, because I love this one, because I have used this very effectively, is when you are having each of these conversations, see it as like a chain reaction.  So, for every new person that you meet, so let's say one of your strong ties has introduced you to one person who they were like, "This person might be able to help", always follow up and have that conversation.   

Then, always end that conversation by saying, exactly as Helen said, "Is there anyone else you think I should speak to who could help me to learn more about what it's like to grow a business?" or, "Is there anyone else you think I could speak to who might help me to grow my gravitas, or to change direction in my career?" whatever the purpose is for having that conversation; ask that person and see if they know anyone else. 

Every time you do that, you're moving further away from the people that you know really well, and you're kind of getting weaker and weaker, but that's a good thing!  I was like, "Oh, my God, the language here just blows my mind!"  But the weaker and weaker, the further away, the ripples extend, and I think that's really useful, because then that's when suddenly you're having a conversation with someone who you never would have done normally, because that's maybe three connections on.  That's a weak tie who's introduced you to another weak tie, to another weak tie; and again, just their ability to know things that you would never know, and to know other people, is just really, really valuable. 

So, always make sure, when you're five minutes away from your meeting ending, I always keep a little eye on it, because I'm rubbish at time management with those kinds of things, but I always think, "I must ask that question at the end".  You never know who knows who.  So, not only might they know someone that you don't know, but also they will often introduce you as well.  So, they'll say, "Do you want me to introduce you?" and you're like, "Brilliant!  That saves me a job". 

When people ask me that, if I ever can, I always will.  And again, if I can't, I'll always be really honest about that.  I'll say, "I probably don't really know that person well enough to make a direct introduction, but why don't you start having a look at what they're doing, see if there's opportunities to go to some of the events, or things where they might be", and maybe they're just a good person for them to follow, or something like that.  But I think just make sure that you keep that going, you don't put a full stop after a conversation. 

Helen Tupper: We could rename it "deep relationships" and "distant relationships", so it's not strong and weak; we'll take that one forward, everybody! 

Sarah Ellis: So, our fourth idea for action is about saying yes when you normally might say no.  So, let's talk about that one a little bit more.  Sometimes, I think, because we are all so focused on tasks, getting stuff done, we all have more to do than we have time; it always feels like that.  We know that from our conversations with people like Oliver Burkeman.  I think often, we don't say yes to things that are the most likely to lead to new weak ties, because we just think it's not important right now, it's not a priority at the moment; there are better ways to spend my time. 

This might not be true for you, but certainly this is true for me.  I sometimes think, "Well, no, that's not top of my list right now.  I probably do need to finish that presentation, or prepare for this podcast", or whatever it might be, but I am going to say yes to that, because I spot it as an opportunity to create a new weak tie.  So, sometimes that can be about a one-to-one conversation, so we've talked before about things like curiosity coffees, and often for me, that's how it shows up, that's what it would look like in my diary.   

It would look like I'm having a conversation with someone where it's very hard to connect the dots between why you're having that conversation and what's on your to-do list right now.  But I've said yes, because I just think, I feel like they will know people I don't know and they will know things I don't know.  I always have that in my head.  That's almost a bit of a lens that I look through, sometimes, how I spend my time.  And if I'm never doing any of that, I'm limiting my learning and I'm limiting the perspectives that I'm getting, because I'm spending time with the people who are probably too similar to me, or might have very shared experiences to me. 

So, the other week, I had a conversation with somebody who works in Canada in the public sector, and our common point of connection, back to our first idea for action, was that both really interested in career development.  But to be honest, that's about as far as it went.  Other than that, I was thinking, "Works in a completely different sector, didn't really know very much".  It would have been really easy for me to say no to that, in terms of spending a bit of my day, like an hour of my day, doing that.  But by saying yes, it meant I have definitely got a new weak tie there that, I recommended a couple of books to her, we've followed up and I feel like that will just stay as a weak tie. 

You don't have to turn weak ties into strong ties.  I sometimes have to remind myself of that, because my inclination is basically to try and be best friends with everybody, which is not useful.  And also, most people don't want to be best friends with me, which is fine, obviously!  But I think, just remember that as well, and someone actually once said this to me, I think I once had this bit of feedback from someone, which is really good feedback.  He was going, "Not every relationship has to be a deep, trusting relationship where you know that person really well".   

Weak ties can stay as weak ties.  Of course, inevitably, the odd weak tie might become a strong tie in time, but I think that's probably, if you're getting the mix of relationships right, that's probably the exception, rather than the rule. 

Helen Tupper: I think as well, taking the pressure off the conversation, not seeing good and bad conversations.  You might be like, "That was a good conversation, because I got loads out of it, and that was a bad conversation because we just talked about what each other does and probably not going to see them again".  I don't think you know how relationships might become meaningful over the long term.  So, the success is having had a conversation and having made a new connection really; it's not in the immediate term.  So, taking the pressure off means that you don't sort of judge things too early. 

So, our fifth idea for action, I'm wondering whether this is a bit more of a Helen thing than a Sarah thing, you'll have to let me know, but I definitely do this.  So, this is using LinkedIn/other social media, to warm up a weak tie, but I do think I do this more on LinkedIn.   

So, what I would do here is, if there were some areas that I was curious about, or some connections that I was conscious that I wanted to make, I would maybe start following some people, or some groups on LinkedIn.  I would try to warm up a weak tie, so maybe by liking a post that someone was sharing, or commenting on it with my perspective, and what it means is, I'm warming up a little bit so that when I reach out to that person, maybe for a Zoom conversation, or a curious coffee, like Sarah said, if it's appropriate to have it in person, I'm not a completely unknown entity.  They're like, "Oh, I've seen your name popping up", or we might have had a little bit of back-and-forth chat on LinkedIn before we go into the DMs and get to know each other and maybe have that point of connection that goes beyond social media.   

But I've done it a lot, lots of contacts that I have had that have initially started on social media have become conversations, and some of them have gone on to become strong ties over the long term.  And it's enabled us to develop people for our network that have helped us at Amazing If, find new podcast guests, all kinds of things.  But using LinkedIn or other social media to warm up a weak tie can be a good way to make a connection request more likely to get a yes from somebody else.  Do you think you do it, Sarah? 

Sarah Ellis: No! 

Helen Tupper: Ignore, ignore! 

Sarah Ellis: Not in the way you have just described, just because I think you do have to do what feels right for you.  What I would be more likely to do is write an essay.  I'd be like, "I'm going to write a really long essay about something that I feel might be a really common point of connection", and then I would almost use that to share.  I think I feel most comfortable sharing things that I think might be helpful. 

Helen Tupper: Do you know what it's making me think? 

Sarah Ellis: What? 

Helen Tupper: What if we didn't know each other and then we were on LinkedIn?  I think you'd be like, "She's really annoying, liking and commenting on my posts", and I'd be like, "God, get to the point in your DM messages"!  I don't think we'd ever make friends.  It's a good job we already are. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I do wonder that sometimes, would we be connected?  If we saw each other from a distance, because our approaches are quite different, I think we'd need to meet in person.  I think we would end up being connected by curiosity.  So, because we both love to learn, we would turn up at the same thing.  We'd be there for different reasons and we'd enjoy it in different ways, like I'd love the learning, the content, and you'd love all the connections. 

Helen Tupper: You're making me doubt that we'd even like each other then! 

Sarah Ellis: But that might be just the breakthrough, the catalyst that we would need.  I'd like to think that we would. 

Helen Tupper: Like a Sliding Doors moment, we'd be still connected.  I'd hope so. 

Sarah Ellis: The one other thing I thought might be worth mentioning is I do think sometimes, when you're trying to work your weak ties, you either do get the no reply or the no.  The fear of rejection can stop us, and then the actual rejection can also stop us, because we then think, "That's not worked".  This also happens to us all of the time, by the way, everybody listening.  So, we will ask people to come on the podcast who don't ever reply to me. 

Helen Tupper: Or me! 

Sarah Ellis: And even if Helen's done her stalking thing, maybe they're still not replying. 

Helen Tupper: Can we not call it the stalking thing!   

Sarah Ellis: Sorry! 

Helen Tupper: Warming up a weak tie, Sarah! 

Sarah Ellis: Warming up a weak tie thing.  So, this happens to us all the time, and I think if this had happened to me five or six years ago, I think I would have taken it really personally, because you're putting a lot of effort and energy into it, and I think probably because we do it so much now, and because we often are trying to get into other places and spaces and stuff, actually getting more used to it, practising the rejection or the no reply makes you accept it much more. 

I think, if this does happen to you, don't feel bad, it's not about you.  It's never about you, it's never personal.  Someone might not see something, they genuinely might not have the time, they've probably got other stuff going on that you just don't know about.  I will definitely have said no to things where people might have hoped you say yes and you have to say no.  And I think that doesn't mean that they're not interested, or it doesn't mean that you're not taking the right approach. 

So if, along the way, you feel like it's not quite working out as you hoped, don't get disheartened, because it is never about you.  And I think when you do this enough and when you practise this enough, you kind of get use to having all these weak ties; having quite low expectations is a good thing when it comes to weak ties.   

As Helen said, it's not about going, "Wow, is this a deep and meaningful relationship within six months?" or, "Has this person given me a job?" or, "Exactly what have I gained?"  Helen and I nearly had this as an idea for action, but I think it is just trusting in career karma, which is what we always talk about when we talk about networking, and people helping people.   

I think when you're thinking about weak ties, trust in career karma.  Some people will say yes, some people will say no, some people won't reply.  It's all okay, keep going, try what works for you, and I think come up almost with your own ways of working your weak ties.  And I think what you've heard from Helen and I here today, essentially us clashing together, both of our approaches to working our weak ties; but if I think about all of the good stuff that has come from weak ties over the years, they're invaluable, because these are the people that will connect you with someone where you're like, "Wow, that's amazing.  That's going to mean that we've got a podcast guest now for our listeners that we would never have normally got" or, "That means that I've learnt something that I just would never have learnt and I've grown in a new direction". 

So, the important thing now is maybe listening to what you've heard today, think about for you, if you were going to do three ways that you want to work your weak ties, what three things are you going to do; what feels like the most genuine and authentic and realistic way for you to work your weak ties? 

Helen Tupper: So, we'll just summarise the five we've got and then don't forget, they'll be on that PodSheet if you do want to download it and write down your own ways, as Sarah said. 

So, the first one was get connected by curiosity; the second one was reconnect with a past relationship; the third was move from your strong ties to new weak ties; the fourth was start to say yes when you might want to say no; and the fifth was use LinkedIn to warm up a weak tie. 

Sarah Ellis: So, thank you so much for listening.  If you haven't had time yet to rate, review or subscribe, we really appreciate it, we read every review, and those star ratings really help us to spread Squiggly to new people.  And we get people every week discovering the podcast, even though we're 250 episodes in, or however many we've done. 

Helen Tupper: But also, when this comes out, it's pretty close to Christmas, so it could be a Squiggly Careeristmas to Sarah and I! 

Sarah Ellis: Oh, right, I wondered where you were going with that!  I was like, giving the podcast as a present, I'm not sure that really works, but sure. 

Helen Tupper: No, a review. 

Sarah Ellis: Oh, a review as a present ideally.  So, we really hope you've enjoyed the episode, and we'll be back with you again next week.  Bye for now. 

Helen Tupper: Bye, everyone.