How to turn hard times into helpful learning

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:25: Hard moments explained
00:05:26: How you might feel after a hard moment
00:07:50: Coach-yourself questions
00:09:54: Ideas for action…
00:10:22: … 1: the four A's
00:15:31: … 2: perspective playback
00:18:52: … 3: choose your ending
00:22:15: … 4: rehearse your response
00:28:13: Final thoughts

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly podcast where we dive into the ins and outs and ups and downs of careers, and share some ideas for action, some tools for you to try out, so you can hopefully have a bit more confidence, clarity and control over your career development.  And every one of our episodes is supported with lots of resources to help you take action, so whether you just listen to this today or you want to learn a bit more, we've got PodSheets, they're one-page summaries you can download to reflect and share with your team maybe, that might be something you could do; we've got PodPlus, that's a weekly conversation where you can talk with other like-minded Squiggly learners; or, you can sign up for PodMail, which comes out every Tuesday and it pulls all the resources together for you into one place. All the links to that stuff are in the show notes.  If you ever can't find it, just email us.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: And so today, we're talking about how to turn hard moments into helpful learning.  And I suspect if you ever wondered whether we sometimes get podcast topics from what's happening in our weeks, this is a really good clue!  I think you could probably just listen every week of the year and be like, "What's going on in Sarah's and Helen's world?"

Helen Tupper: Yeah, "What's been happening behind the Squiggly scenes this week?"

Sarah Ellis: And you would know because we would be like, "This has been hard; there must be a podcast topic in that".  And it turns out, after a bit of research and discussion, there absolutely is.  So, what do we mean by "hard moments", because actually we've taken a bit of time to think a bit about this, and also the contrast between hard moments and knotty moments, which you might have heard us talk about in the context of Squiggly Careers before. So, when we think about knotty moments, we consider them to be bigger than the day-to-day.  They go beyond what's happening in your week.  So, knotty moments in a Squiggly Career, big moments of change and uncertainty, which you may or may not be in control of, so the classic restructure redundancy one, maybe you want to change career, maybe you've got a difficult manager, so those sort of knotty moments.

Helen Tupper: Coming back after maternity leave, that sort of stuff!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, not hard to imagine what those might be.  What we're talking about today are hard moments, which is when in the moment, that was hard.  It happens during your day-to-day, maybe you expected it, maybe you didn't, but I bet you have a conversation about it afterwards.  It's the WhatsApp message, it's the quick phone call to your boss or to someone you get on really well with in your team going, "This felt hard [or] this was hard".  I think you very rarely keep those hard moments to yourself, because in the moment they feel almost quite visceral, "That was really tough, that was difficult". So, examples of hard moments might be a disagreement that happens in a meeting, maybe something that you'd not expected, so maybe different expectations from a project, maybe somebody was difficult who you hadn't expected to be.  Helen, a couple of specific examples?

Helen Tupper: You want the specifics?!  I had one recently, a hard moment, when I was recording a podcast interview with somebody and the conversation went in a very different direction to the one I had prepared for, or was anticipating, and I couldn't escape it.  So, it was a hard moment I felt like I couldn't get out of, and that was really difficult.  I've had other ones where I've had feedback that I wasn't expecting to get, so I wasn't expecting that feedback, I didn't think it was going to happen then, so it was like a double whammy of hardness.  Sometimes making a mistake, when you make a mistake in a moment and you're like, "That just wasn't how I wanted that to go", and multiple hard moments.  What about you?

Sarah Ellis: Well, we had a hard moment together when we were delivering some career development recently for a group of people on a leadership programme.  It's all coming back!

Helen Tupper: Now it's coming back!

Sarah Ellis: So, we live draw in all of our sessions and all of our workshops, and the tech had been working beautifully until about three-quarters of the way through the day, where suddenly the tech just stopped working for absolutely no rhyme or reason, no one could fix it, and we had to then work out what we were going to do very, very quickly.  That felt like a really hard moment, because you've got all of these people with expectations and waiting for what's coming next, and everything has suddenly died on you.  So, that was quite tough, so kind of a techy-type one; that definitely felt like a hard moment. We also had an example recently of someone in our team, where they were put under pressure in a meeting to offer something for free that we would normally charge for.  So again, they hadn't expected that, I think that felt really hard, it feels quite uncomfortable.  I don't think all hard moments are surprises, I do think sometimes you anticipate hard moments, but I think they are more likely to be unexpected than expected, do you think?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  I was thinking about some more, you know, you're like, "What are all the hard moments?"  Like, the questions that you get in meetings.  Sometimes someone will give you a question and you're like, "That question doesn't feel like a genuine question", it's one where someone is deliberately trying to put you on the spot or show you up, those kind of ones as well; and again, that's unexpected.  So, when I'm reflecting on the ones that I've had, they generally have been unexpected, or unwelcomed!  Like, "You're just not being very nice!" is normally my thought.

Sarah Ellis: And so I think, how do you feel after a hard moment?  You often feel maybe disappointed in yourself, so because you hadn't expected something, maybe you don't respond or act in a way that you feel good about.  You might feel frustrated; I often feel frustrated.  When I was really thinking about this, frustration was the main emotion that I feel, either that maybe I'd not done something previously that I should have done, or that I didn't deal with it differently.  You also might spiral, so if you're like me, this definitely happens; so, you make that hard moment bigger than it is.  So essentially, you take a moment in time and then you start to really overanalyse it, let it take up loads of headspace. I find with hard moments, if I don't do something about them or address them quite quickly, they sort of permeate the rest of my day and the rest of my week and they sort of stay with me.  Or, you might feel quite defeatist.  This one I don't recognise as much, I'm more likely to spiral and get frustrated.  But when you look at the research around hard moments, sometimes we then start to say to ourselves, "What's the point?"  Actually, it's giving up.  I think we sometimes feel like we either want to give up, or we feel like giving up.

Helen Tupper: I think as well, I can almost get a bit, I don't know, I don't mean to do this and I don't like saying this, but almost a bit blame-y.

Sarah Ellis: Definitely blame-y!

Helen Tupper: Okay, good!  But you know like, "That was all about that person [or] that was just unfair [or] that just wasn't right", and I do not like that about myself at all, and I also don't think it's particularly helpful.  It's much easier to look inward, which is what we're going to talk about and think about, because you can't control somebody's desire to put you on the spot, you can't control somebody wanting to give you feedback; that will happen.  But I do sometimes go, "That was that person".  I almost get a bit spikey about the person and I kind of go, "That's not nice and it's not particularly helpful".  I can see that sometimes in my responses to those situations.

Sarah Ellis: So, how would we like to feel about these hard moments?

Helen Tupper: Not like that!

Sarah Ellis: There are two things that I think we're aiming for here in terms of, what's our job to do.  We want to recognise that it's hard, but feel proud of how we handled that hard moment; and also, reflect on what we learn, so it might be that bit easier the next time around.  I think that's the name of the game here.

Helen Tupper: So, we've got a couple of coach-yourself questions for you to think through, so that you can I guess get to the insight Sarah and I have got to about what are some of these moments and how do they make us feel.  And we'll put all these in the PodSheet for you if you're thinking, "I really want to spend some time reflecting on them. So the first one is, "What was the hardest moment of my week?"  Number two, "What are two reasons why that moment felt difficult?"  Number three, "How often can I spot that hard moment happening in my work?" that might be daily or weekly.  Number four, "What am I already doing well that's helping me navigate the hard moments at work?"  And five, "What one word do I want to use to describe myself after a hard moment?"  So, as an example there, one thing that I would like to say is instead of "snipe-y and blame-y", I'd like just "calm", I'd just aim for calm and in control, would be brilliant!  What would your one word be?

Sarah Ellis: Open.  I found that last coach-yourself question useful.  I mean, I'm saying that as somebody who wrote it, so I'm giving myself credit for writing the question, but I was like, "That's a useful way of thinking about probably how you respond to almost what gets in your way and almost what you are trying to do differently", because you talked about you get spikey; I think I get closed.  So, I get frustrated and closed and want to be the opposite to that, I want to be open.

Helen Tupper: What I quite like about those words, "calm, controlled and open", they're a bit boring, aren't they, but they're fine; they're really kind of boring ones.  But they feel doable, like staying open, staying calm, staying in control, they feel like, "Well, that feels like a doable way that I can respond", as long as I've got some skills, some ideas for action of how to do it, that feels quite manageable.

Sarah Ellis: That's true, I suppose it feels realistic, which is always good, and it does feel, like you say, something that you can do.  So, you're not relying on other people, which I think is always helpful.  So, we've got four ideas for how you can turn those hard moments into helpful learning, and as we go through, we've certainly found it helpful as we were testing out these ideas, to maybe think about a hard moment that you've experienced quite recently, and then how you could apply each of these ideas to that hard moment, to then almost think about what happens and what you might do at each stage of the hard moment. So, the first idea for action we're calling the Four A's, and this is when you're in that hard moment, how can you increase your awareness to a point where you can hopefully do something helpful.  So, the first A is "acknowledge".  So, when you're in that hard moment, if you can just have almost like enough capacity and space to say to yourself, "This feels hard because…", it will just help you to understand and appreciate, "Okay, it's okay, this is a hard moment".

Helen Tupper: So I guess for me, it's okay that sometimes a podcast interview is hard.  Not everyone is going to be with a friend who basically asks you the nice questions, that actually sometimes people's job is to ask you a question you've not been asked before so they can get insights that other people haven't heard; and it's okay if I find that difficult, because I've not had that question before.  That's kind of all okay for them and for me as a situation.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I was thinking about the times that I have hard moments, I might be saying to myself, "This is a hard moment because this person has approached this project very differently to perhaps how I would have done it", you know, almost just acknowledging that.  Or, "This is a hard moment because this is not what I'd expected", and that's it. Then I think you have a level of "acceptance" that you're going to move to quite quickly. 

I think all of these things happen within about 30 seconds, to be honest.  You usually can't change that hard moment in the here and now, but you can accept that it's happening, and then really think about how you respond to it.  So, it's very rare that you can just go, "Oh well, I'm going to get rid of that person [or] I'm going to stop this situation", in the middle of it, because usually you're in it, you're in the midst of it. So then the third and the fourth A's are "adapt" and "act".  So, asking yourself, "What can I do right now?" is a useful question, because the answer might genuinely be, "Nothing", and that's okay.  But almost just by having gone through that thought process of, "This is a hard moment, I'm accepting it's a hard moment, what can I do right now?"  Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's actually to ask a question, maybe it is just to slow down for a second, maybe it's just to think about being curious, or thinking back actually to that word that Helen and I just described; that's probably what I think I'll start to try and do a bit more is think, "What can I do right now?"  I might end that now with, "What can I do right now to be really open?" because I've said "open" is that word. So Helen might say, "What can I do now to stay calm?"  So, maybe ending that question and connecting it to the word that you came up with in that coach-yourself question might just then help to influence a small action that you can take in the here and now, that just helps you to show up in that hard moment in a way that you'll feel proud of and you'll feel good about.

Helen Tupper: I really like that connecting it to the one word thing, because I did try in that situation.  I did try to adapt.  I remember I thought, "Well, I'll put, 'I feel like I am being interrogated', so what I'll do --", this is me being snipe-y, this is not very good!

Sarah Ellis: I like snipe-y Helen, I enjoy it!

Helen Tupper: "-- I'll interrogate you back".  I mean, I'm not very snipe-y really --

Sarah Ellis: No, you're really not, that's why I enjoy it!

Helen Tupper: -- so I think I just said something like, "Oh, I'd love to get your perspective on this".  I mean, that's about as snipe-y as I got!  And then the person didn't even give me a perspective, they just asked me another question and I was like, "Oh, that didn't work!"

Sarah Ellis: Amazing!

Helen Tupper: But I do like the idea of that one word, having it in mind, like calm would have probably just been me breathing before I responded, just maybe pausing a little bit more, rather than rushing in to respond; or just staying more neutral with my tone.

Sarah Ellis: And I guess also, you're a naturally high-energy, energetic person, your pace is quite speedy, your brain works super-fast, so in these hard moments, in some ways that's going to feel slightly counterintuitive to you.  Because, like you say, calm might just be slowing down, more pauses, more silence in a conversation, and knowing that that's okay, because that's going to help you to stay calm, and just practising that.  You might come away going -- I don't think you enjoy, I don't think many people relish hard moments, but then you do come away going, "I didn't enjoy it, but I do feel like I showed up in the right way; I used the tools and tactics that helped me to get through the hard moment".

Helen Tupper: When I just think about that one in particular, I'm going to use a horse analogy; I don't know why, it's a long time since I've been near a horse.  But I felt a bit like the reins had been pulled away from me.  So I'm riding a horse with no reins and I'm like, "I don't know where this is going, I'm not in control of it", and I think just that one word of going, "How do I want to come across; and what could I do now that would give me that?" it gives you at least one of the reins back.  You might be going round in circles, but you're at least you're not going to -- I don't know where this horse analogy's going, but that's the idea that came into my mind when I was listening to you and just reflecting on it with that particular situation for me.

So, our second idea for action is about getting some perspective, and we're calling this one "perspective playback".  The risk here is that when you come away from whatever that situation that you've been in is, the meeting, the conversation, the feedback you weren't expecting, that hard time for you, the risk is you can kind of get stuck in your own story. 

This is what Sarah was saying about, you might magnify that particularly hard moment in your mind and it all just becomes a bit sticky and a bit hard to get through. What can really help if that is happening is to ask for somebody else's perspective on the situation that you've been in.  Now, they might not have been there, so it's not like you can say, "What did you say; what did you hear?" because maybe that was just between you and one other person.  But what you can do is play back your experience, so the meeting, the conversation, whatever it was for you, and then ask them some questions that can help you to get more of a perspective.  It's very useful if this is somebody that knows you quite well, or works with you quite closely, because then their perspective will probably be a bit more relevant.

The sort of things you might want to ask here, so let's imagine I'm playing back that interview, or that feedback I wasn't expecting, to Sarah; what I would then do, having played back that experience is ask her, "Listening to me, what are your first thoughts?"  Then I would listen and that might be different to my first thoughts, Sarah might bring in some insight that she's got about me because she's worked with me for a while, maybe a bit of empathy like, "I would have found that hard too, you're not alone in that", all that kind of stuff, so you listen and just take that onboard. Then the second question that you could ask which can help you is, "What do you think I should do now?" because if you're feeling a bit stuck in a situation, it can be hard to see your way through it.  But that person who's got some perspective might also have some clarity, and so just asking them, "What do you think I should do now?" might help to move you on from that moment.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think what's interesting about this is, we said at the start of the podcast, often hard moments, you do end up sharing with someone else, because essentially you want to either complain or vent or do those kinds of things, and I think that's absolutely fine.  Maybe that's to your partner or to your friend, or whatever, but I think what we're saying here is actually how important it is to share the hard moments, so you don't want to keep them to yourself, but I think this idea helps you to do it in a way that is more constructive and useful for you. I still think go downstairs and do the venting with your partner, or WhatsApp someone in your family and just be like, "This is a nightmare", I think that's okay because it gets it out of your system.  But what I think it doesn't do is necessarily help you to move forward, or to help you to get that perspective that actually somebody else can give you.  So, it's just recognising that if you've had that hard moment, making the space to actually share it with someone else is a real priority, because it's actually what can stop it.  You know I talked about it permeates the rest of my week? 

As soon as I talk to you about a hard moment, it puts a full stop after it, because I've gone, "Okay, I've got some other perspective, I'm now clear about the action I'm going to take", I take that action, and then actually you do feel like you've got some momentum to move onto the next thing, and you've not still got that niggle in your mind about that hard moment that's staying with you. So, now with your hard moment, you've hopefully coped a bit better using those A's in the moment; you've then got a different perspective that's helped you to think about what you might do; idea for action three is then to choose your ending.

 So, this is after the hard moment, thinking about, "What do I do now?"  And if the outcome hasn't been what you wanted, which it probably hasn't if it's been a hard moment, you can then actually start to think about, "How do I regain a bit of control?  How can I take a small action that just helps me to feel like I've reflected on that hard moment, I've learnt from it and I've taken ownership for it?" For example, that person in our team that we described where they'd had a hard moment with somebody basically asking us to do work for free, rather than charge for something, what then she might have done is just left that and thought, "That's a really hard conversation, I didn't really enjoy that, I didn't feel like I showed up very well in that conversation", that could have been the ending; that's almost like ending one. Or, an alternative ending might be for us to then go back to that organisation, thank them for the conversation and that fact that they're interested in the work that we do, and just reiterate, "This is what we offer, this is how much we charge for it".  To me, that feels like a confident ending, and it feels like one that you've chosen, rather than one that you've let happen to you.  So, I think just know that you've got options when it comes to how a hard moment ends, and just because something hasn't gone well in the moment, doesn't mean that you can't then still take back a bit of control, I think. So, what did you, Helen, with the podcast interview; did you choose your ending, or would you now choose your ending with the benefit of hindsight?

Helen Tupper: No, I did choose my ending, I thought, "How can we all learn?"  I often find that to be a good one, like how can my experience help other people, is often a way that, on a podcast episode for example, here's my ending everyone!  No, but it could be for the team, like if I had a hard conversation with someone about pricing, I'd be like, "Okay, let's come up with a one-pager with our pricing which communicates it really clearly so that you can send that afterwards", and then that feels that that's something we didn't have before this hard moment happened and therefore it is helpful. So, whether it is, in our world, it would be something like a new statistic that we'd found to support a message that we were trying to communicate, or a podcast that could help other people, they're often the things that I use.  Sometimes I've even thanked somebody.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I was going to say, "Say thank you".

Helen Tupper: Yeah, because you've been in a situation and you're like, "That felt hard and that felt difficult, and what I could do now is write off this relationship".  I don't find that very helpful as a way of working to write off relationships, so I would rather go back to the person, be that a manager or whoever it would be, and just say, "I've reflected on our conversation yesterday, I did find it quite difficult in the moment, but actually I've learned a lot from it.  These are a couple of things that I'm going to do differently as a result and I just wanted to thank you". They might have been being difficult, there might have been quite a lot that was on them, but I can't control them, and sometimes me almost being the bigger person and saying thank you, I just feel better about myself and better about that situation when I end it like that.

And our last idea for action is all about rehearsing your response.  So, what Sarah and I thought about when we were reflecting on our hard moments, is that often something similar is probably likely to happen again unfortunately; just being honest, everybody!  That feedback you weren't expecting or that person that was difficult in a meeting, or whatever it was, it's probably not going to be the last time that something like that happens.  So, as well as choosing your ending for that particular moment, what can be really useful is to feel confident about how you would respond differently next time.  And rehearsing your response is one way you almost build muscle, or I guess it's more like mental memory, so that when you're in that situation again, you're like, "I could do this differently". I was talking to Sarah about it and I was like, it's a bit like first aid, I think.  You get taught first aid, and then there's something that sticks in your head so that if you ever are in a situation, you know how you would help a person out, and this is really about helping you out.  So for example, if I was thinking about feedback that I wasn't expecting, what I might do is just think about, "Okay, so next time that happens in a meeting, what would I do differently?"  Maybe I would have a statement that I would say, maybe the thank you, "Thank you, I appreciate your insights, I'd like to come back to you with my reflections later on".  Saying that statement out loud, it sort of familiarises myself with it so then I know that next time, I don't have to panic, I don't have to get defensive, I don't have to rush to respond, I can just pick up that statement and say it. It might be that if I was in a podcast interview or something, I might say, "Okay, next time somebody takes me down a very argumentative direction, I'm not going to try to defend my position", which is probably what I did previously, "I'm going to say, 'Actually, can we just press pause for a moment on this conversation and just talk about the outcome that you're looking to get?'"  Even just one sentence like that, and saying it makes you feel comfortable and confident, so that if you are in that situation, you know where you're going to go with it, and it's just about rehearsing the response so that you're ready for it next time.

Sarah Ellis: And as we said, they often are unexpected.  I think the more I think about these, it's very hard to know they're going to happen, other than maybe you know sometimes if you have someone that you find it hard to work with, you're like, every time I have a conversation or a meeting with that person, maybe you can anticipate hard moments a bit more then.  But most of the time, I think you don't know they're coming. But one of the things I've realised is, when you do start to spot, "This is a hard moment", you've done that acknowledge and accept, you're so much more likely to be able to respond in a way that you feel good about.  So, one of the things that I've noticed is, I always found it hard when, let's say we're doing a workshop about career development with people, and unexpectedly somebody really disagrees with what we're saying, and that doesn't happen very often so you don't expect it.  Most of the time, people are very open and they're learning and they're going with it. 

And even if maybe they're not sure, they're giving you the benefit of the doubt, which is great. But occasionally you get that person who says, "I don't agree with this" or, "I think this is wrong".  Previously, I would have (a) found that frustrating because I would have been, "Okay, I haven't got time for this, I need to move onto whatever I need to talk about next", and (b) I would almost take it very personally.  I would be like, "This is a reflection on me.  You think I don't know what I'm doing here essentially, so you're not disagreeing with the idea, you're disagreeing with me". When I then started to think, "Okay, well if I want to be open in those moments, what would I do?" I just figured out, I would just be intrigued and then I would invite the rest of the group to share their perspective, and that for me, whether it's a workshop or a meeting or a project or a conversation with someone in our team, that intrigue and invite, you know you talked about having a shortcut for first aid, works so well for me in so many different scenarios. So I'm like, be intrigued, because that's being open, so I might say, "That's so interesting, I'd not thought of that.  How did you get to that point of view?" or, "That's so interesting, tell me a bit more about that or why you think that doesn't work?" so just be intrigued. 

And then not feel like it's just about me, actually think about inviting other people in the meeting, or invite other people in our team, or invite other people in that workshop to then say, "Okay, so that's a different point of view.  What's everybody else's response to that?"  Again, I'm being really open to maybe there's someone I can learn, maybe there's something we can learn, and this is not about me having to prove myself, this is about just being open. What's so funny is that then, having learnt that technique and being able to apply it in so many different hard moments, it then helps you to move forward from that hard moment in the here and now, because it is a really hard thing to do; when something is difficult, it is hard.  But in that here and now, I know that I'm not saying I thrive, I think I cope much better than I did before.  And then I think you can then just think, "Okay, well that was hard", and afterwards would I still be coming to you and going, "Really hard moment in today's workshop.  Somebody said that they massively disagreed with Squiggly Careers and they think the only successful people --"

Helen Tupper: They want the ladder back!

Sarah Ellis: They want the ladder, yeah!  So, I would still be doing that to get the playback perspective that we talked about, but I think the likelihood of me then, in the here and now, coping with that difficulty is so much better because of that rehearsing your response.  And that is a really good example of one where I probably learnt that about four years ago.  It doesn't happen that often, but I've rehearsed it and then I've practised it.  I've practised and practised. So, I don't think you need that many things actually in your first aid kit, just a couple of things like that that feel useful for you and also feel realistic, like it's useful and, "I realistically think I can do that and I know I can and I've practised it enough", and then I go, "Great".  That's basically all I need to do, and I don't put pressure on myself to do anything beyond that.

Helen Tupper: So, quick recap then of those ideas for action.  So, the first one was to remember the four A's: acknowledge, accept, adapt and act; the second one was perspective playback; the third one was choose your ending; and the fourth one was rehearse your response.  So, we hope that that is going to be helpful for you when you are in a hard time, which is kind of inevitable for all of us, but we just want to be there by your side when you're squiggling through that moment.  And as we said right at the start, those will be summarised for you in the PodSheet. I think as well, if you're a manager or a mentor, it's likely someone might come to you to talk about a hard time they're going through, and so this could be a useful structure to support them with too.  So, maybe sending a PodSheet their way could be a helpful thing that you could do.

Sarah Ellis: So, thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.