Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:37: What is self-sabotage?

00:06:14: The LIFE categories of self-sabotage

00:11:27: Find out your saboteur profile

00:17:26: Ideas for action…

00:18:08: … 1: construct a self-sabotage grid

00:23:11: … 2: write some cycle-breaking instructions

00:29:35: … 3: create your own reward system

00:38:56: Find an accountability partner to support you

00:40:02: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we talk about a different topic to do with work and share some ideas for action and tools to try out that we hope will help you, and it definitely helps us, to navigate our Squiggly Careers with that little bit more confidence, clarity and control.

Sarah Ellis: We just wanted to start this week by saying a quick thank you to everyone who takes the time to give us star ratings and write a review for us.  We know it's never going to be top of your to-do list, which we completely understand, but we do really appreciate you giving us feedback and letting us know what you're learning from the podcast, what you find useful, any "even better ifs".

One really stood out for me recently that I did want to share, where someone said, "Every career needs Squiggly", which I thought was pretty lovely, "Absolutely love these podcasts and the PodPlus community".  And the person goes on to talk a bit about how they've struggled at work and in quite a toxic environment, and then finishes by saying, "The podcast has reminded me of who I am, my values and my strengths, and I'm now so excited about the future.  Have recommended you both to so many other people".

Helen Tupper: So nice.

Sarah Ellis: And I do just want to let people know, those kind of reviews, they don't all have to be quite as gushing as that one, though I do love it, we read every one and they do make our week.  And when we are recording our 200, and however many, episodes, doing it every week, it really helps just to keep us motivated to know that we are being useful and being helpful for you in your careers.  So, if you do get five minutes to write us a review, we'd be really grateful.  But in the meantime, we just wanted to say thank you to everyone who takes the time already to do that for us.

Helen Tupper: Look at you being all warm and fuzzy!

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah, I've been on holiday; and I've had a gin and tonic!

Helen Tupper: I like this Holiday Sarah.  If you want to be in part of our warm and fuzzy career community, or just get some tips on how to work or manage your career, join the PodPlus community; it's every Thursday.  It's a 30-minute session with either Sarah or myself, occasionally both of us mocking each other a little bit.  It's free, it's on Zoom, the people that are part of it are just so lovely and generous, and it's very, very share-y and supportive.  We'll put the link to join in the show notes, and if you can't find that, you can always just email us.  We're helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com, and we'll get the details over to you. But today, we are talking about the topic of self-sabotage.  Sarah and I were like, "Have we talked about this?" 

I don't know whether it's very much on our mind, this topic of self-sabotage, but we were really convinced that we'd talked about it.  So, we have searched on many apps and on our website, and we are convinced that we haven't, and we are also convinced that it's a very important topic to cover. So, perhaps let's just start with what self-sabotage is.  Saboteurs are the voices in your head that can generate stress and negative emotions in the way that you handle your work and life challenges.  The issue with these saboteurs that we all carry around with us is they limit our potential for happiness and our performance at work.  I guess the saboteur shortcut, if that is too long a definition, is essentially how you get in your own way.

Sarah Ellis: Getting in your own way, though it sounds very counterintuitive, why would any of us want to do that, is actually very normal, natural and understandable, because it's us trying to protect ourselves from getting hurt.  If you hope something is going to happen, then you run the risk of being disappointed.  But it also means that it's really destructive, because it means that we have less opportunities, we limit our learning, and we can't discover new potential or new things that perhaps we didn't know that we could do before. There's a really great video by The School of Life, just called Self Sabotage, if you want to google it, just talking a bit about why it's part of all of our DNA.  So, I often think it is quite reassuring sometimes to know firstly that you're not alone, and that it is something that impacts all of us. 

And there's this really brilliant quote from Alain de Botton, who does have a way with words, and he says, "Getting what we want can feel unbearably risky.  Self-sabotage may make us sad, but at least safely, blessedly, in control". Essentially, he's saying we're looking after and out for ourselves by not getting our hopes up and not doing things where we could fail and not taking those risks.  But at the same time, we also know, and I think it feels really familiar, how frustrating that behaviour can be.  Because, I think we often do know that we're doing it, but we do it anyway, which I always find really fascinating.

Helen Tupper: I think, when I've been researching this, and we'll come onto a really good survey that you can take to find out your saboteur profile, but it's almost like we convince ourselves that our saboteur is justified, "It's fine to act like this, because that's a way that I get more stuff done" or, "It's fine like this, because that's the way that I stop myself taking too many risks or things that might go wrong", so we sort of justify these behaviours, because it reinforces our need for control.  But ultimately, it limits our potential and our happiness.

Sarah Ellis: Emma Gannon has written a brilliant book, called Sabotage, which is very on brand for today's podcast, which I would really recommend reading.  And the reason I like it so much is it's very specific and it's short and it's a really good distillation of the research and the reasons why; but also, Emma's personal perspective on how it's got in her way, some of the things that have helped her.  So, I found that a really good point of reference preparing for today. One of the chapters in the book, she talks about though you self-sabotage, so it is about you and what you do, it's also interesting to reflect on the people that you surround yourself with.  And, are those people supporting your self-saboteur? 

So, ie, are they making you feel maybe less confident; do they make you compare yourself?  Maybe they're people you don't want to share good news with, because you worry about the impact it might have on them.  Maybe they hold you back in some way, or do you feel like they're really supporting you? So, although we're going to focus today mainly on you and what you can do, I do think there is also an element of the people you surround yourself with, which is an important aspect to consider as we go through today. As Helen mentioned, there are a few different ways that you can start to develop your self-awareness of self-sabotage, essentially.  You've got to do two things: you've got to be self-aware; and then you've got to self-manage, which is really the taking action part.  And to improve your self-awareness, there are a few different tools or frameworks and profiles that we've come across that we've found useful.  The first one is by a lady called Judy Ho, who is a clinical neuropsychologist, and she splits self-sabotage into four different categories that spell LIFE. 

So, I'm just going to talk those through quickly, and then we're both going to reflect on which one of those maybe sticks out for us, if any of them. The L stands for low self-esteem, so you maybe think you don't deserve good things, you don't believe in yourself; the I is internalised beliefs and finding them hard to shake, so that's probably what we would describe as confidence gremlins, those beliefs that hold you back and perhaps you struggle to cage those confidence gremlins; the F is for fear of the unknown and self-protection, so I guess this would show up as things like not doing things because of a fear of failure, or that uncertainty of, "I've not done that before", and just that fear of an untrodden path, and not knowing where it might lead, and that feeling too scary so you get in your own way.

Then the E is excessive need for control, and almost preferring control to anything else.  So, you prioritise feeling in control, which then might mean that you stay very much in your comfort zone for all of your time at work, because you think, "Well, at least I'm in control, and I feel good about that", and it stops you doing things that might be braver, or require more vulnerability. So, of that LIFE, I think that's more of a framework than a profile, any of those particularly stick out for you, Helen, when you're self-sabotaging?

Helen Tupper: I was listening and I was creating a new acronym.  I was like, if I was going to rank these in order of self-sabotage, it spells LEIF, which spells very grow-y, but I don't think it's supposed to be quite as grow-y as it sounds! LEIF means, I think my highest self-saboteur profile, and I think this might surprise people, but would probably be the low self-esteem one.  It's not that I beat myself up, so that's not what I mean when I identify with that; it's that I often feel fortunate or lucky to have the things that I have, and I assume they're going to go away.

You know like you describe as, "Don't deserve good things", sometimes I'm like, I don't know, "The reason Squiggly is doing well is because people need support because of the pandemic, and there's a risk that they might not need Squiggly anymore", rather than maybe having the confidence to say, "Well, the reason's Squiggly is doing well is because it gives people the support that they need, regardless of what's happening in the world of their work; this is the stuff that people need and therefore it's not going to go away, and you should trust in that". So, I think there's obviously something in me that doesn't have that full level of self-esteem that would allow me to recognise it in isolation.  I have to almost go, "Well, it's doing well because of these other things, because of these other factors.  And if those factors go away, it might not do well anymore", which is quite vulnerable to share that.  But yeah, I think of all the four, that one would be the highest one for me. Then, the E would be the excessive need for control.  I can definitely see situations, in personal and professional life, where I sometimes try and give people control, and then behind the scenes, I just take control anyway, because I'm like, "I want to do it in this way [or] I believe it should be done in this way".  So, I think, yeah, I do that particularly outside of work as well!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I do think as you go through this, I definitely started off with sort of blissful ignorance.  I was like, "I don't think I do too much self-sabotaging.  This is interesting".  And then, the more you go through it, the more confronting it becomes, in basically all areas of your life.  Then you're like, "Oh, no!"

Helen Tupper: Don't worry if you feel doomed about your development, because we do have lots of ideas for action; they're just coming in about five minutes, everyone, so hold tight!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, so mine, I probably wouldn't rank them in the way that you did, because I just have one that particularly stands out for me, which is the excessive need for control, because I really know about myself, I do like to be in control.  I actually don't mind the unknown, I've got good confidence and I've worked on confidence gremlins and all those kinds of things.  So I feel those first three, it's not that they're easy, but I feel I've almost very proactively worked on them throughout my career and feel like I'm in a good place to stop myself getting in my own way, back to the definition.

Whereas, my excessive need for control, as soon as I start to feel out of control, I think I could sabotage making good decisions, doing the right thing, relationships, loads of different things, just to get back into control, because I think that makes me feel safe again, back to that point about safety that Alain de Botton was talking about.  So, I think I just have a real standout one there, when I look at those.

Helen Tupper: So, that's one way that you can maybe start to assess what self-sabotage might look like for you.  The other one that I found useful is something that I did when I was at Virgin actually.  So, we had an external company come in to teach us about our saboteur profiles in our team, and these saboteur profiles are based on the work of Shirzad Chamine, who has a really good website called Positive Intelligence, which allows you to take a 50-question survey.  It doesn't take that long, but it does help you then to identify what your saboteur profile is; and there are ten different profiles.

The first is the Judge, everyone has a judge.  So, this is the bit within you that beats you up over your mistakes or your shortcomings, but what the Judge does is it activates one of nine other profiles.  And you can have a cluster of profiles, unfortunately, like a little saboteur party, but you will have one that's most dominant alongside the Judge. So, the other profiles are the Avoider, the Controller, the Hyper-Achiever, the Hyper-Rational, the Hyper-Vigilant, the Pleaser, the Restless, the Stickler, and the Victim; they're the other profiles.  So, you take the survey and what it does is it generates a report which gives you a ranking of which one of those saboteur profiles is most likely to be getting in your way.  Then it talks about how it's getting in your way, and then basically tries to sell you some services about overcoming it.  But just go with the first bit to help you understand what your saboteur profile might be, and some of the things that it might be causing you in your career. So, Sarah and I took this survey and we haven't told each other what each other's profile is!  I wonder, if you were to guess, Sarah, which one other than the Judge obviously, which we all have, but which profile do you think the Judge activates in me; which is the highest?

Sarah Ellis: Which is your highest?  I'm going to guess Hyper-Achiever.

Helen Tupper: And you'd be right!  It was all the scale was into Hyper-Achiever!

Sarah Ellis: What, as in 10 out of 10?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, 10 out of 10!

Sarah Ellis: 10?

Helen Tupper: I know, 10 out of 10.

Sarah Ellis: This is like the thing where no one's a 10!

Helen Tupper: It turns out the hyper-achieving Helen…  The irony that I had to get 10 out of 10 in hyper-achievement!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah!  Or maybe it's not ironic, maybe it's just very on brand.

Helen Tupper: Well it says, just to give you listening a bit of an insight into what you get, so you get this characteristic summary.  So it says, "Can keep people at a safe distance", for example or, "Adapt personality to fit what would be impressive to other people", potentially.  I don't necessarily identify with all of that, but you get that summary. Then it shows you what thoughts you might have.  So, "I must be best at what I do" or this one I definitely think, "Emotions get in the way of performance".  I'm like, "Oh no, I think I do think that!"  Then it has a feelings section.  So for example, for my profile there it says, "I don't like to dwell in feelings for too long, they distract me from achieving my goals".  I mean, yeah. Then, this is the bit that I found most interesting: justification lies. 

These are the ways that we justify our behaviour.  So for example, it says here, "Life is about achieving and producing results.  Portraying my image helps me achieve results and feelings of distractions that don't help anything", and I can almost hear myself saying that!  I was like, "Oh no!" this is the way that you sort of protect your profile and convince yourself that this behaviour is helping you. Then it goes through impact on self and others, and then it does get quite deep, because it talks about where this saboteur profile might have originated as a result of your upbringing and experiences.  So, I think it is quite deep.  I definitely see quite a lot of myself in those, and I do need a bit of support now with what I do with it, which hopefully we're going to get onto, because it doesn't give you all that information in the report that you get, would be my warning.  Can I guess yours?

Sarah Ellis: Of course.

Helen Tupper: So I think, we've probably already said it, but I'm just wondering if the survey comes out with it.  I think, when I was going through them, that you would come out with the highest order for a Controller.

Sarah Ellis: No.

Helen Tupper: Interesting!  Now I'm excited.  Tell me more.

Sarah Ellis: You didn't achieve on that one, did you?!

Helen Tupper: Go on?

Sarah Ellis: Hyper-Achiever!

Helen Tupper: Oh, no, this is disastrous, Sarah!

Sarah Ellis: Is it?  Why, what happens if you put two together?  Do you implode?  Mine wasn't 10, but it was 9.4!

Helen Tupper: 9.4?  Hilarious!  9.4, no!

Sarah Ellis: My Controller was second, but it was a massive drop.  My Controller was 6.9.

Helen Tupper: My second one was Restless, so the Restless Hyper-Achiever.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I get that.  But I also had a tie in second, because I was also an Avoider at 6.9 as well; I was a Controller and Avoider.

Helen Tupper: Interesting.

Sarah Ellis: But also, I do think as you go through these, like we always say with any of these profiling things, use them as inputs, not as outputs, because there were definitely things that I read where I thought, "That hasn't been my experience, I don't recognise that behaviour".  Obviously, they're trying to describe as many characteristics and thoughts, and some will just feel more relevant than others.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and at their most distinctive as well, which is where I think that both can be uncomfortable, but also it might not fully reflect you.  The thing we did at Virgin that I found really interesting was, we got a very detailed report, which did come with the ways to respond to your saboteur profile; but like with all these survey things, it was the discussion that it enabled.  Do other people see this in you?  If they do see it in you, when does it potentially create friction in the way that you work?  It's those sorts of conversations that I think this insight can really help you with.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I guess for both of us, we both have achievement as a value, and this is a really good demonstration about how your values can work for you and against you, essentially.  That's bringing this to life in very stark reality.  So, have a go at doing that; it's free.  And as Helen said, I did it today and it took me six or seven minutes, I think, if that; so, it's not something that takes ages to do.  And you get the report to your email really quickly as well. So, what do we do now with all of this self-awareness about how we self-sabotage?  Whatever that might look like for you, we want to think about the actions that we can take.  These actions, like most things, are most successful when they are taken incrementally.  So, everything I've read about self-sabotage says it's very difficult to go from, "I self-sabotage" to, "I now don't self-sabotage".

Helen Tupper: I am fixed!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah!  If it was that easy, we would have all done it.  So, I think it's worth bearing that in mind.  But then equally, sometimes when I was reading some of the research and the examples, there's a bit of a lack of going, "Well, I get that, that you can't go from zero to hero overnight; but what are the things that you could do that might be helpful?"  So, our first idea for action is to have a go, and it's very rare that I say this sentence, at doing a grid.

Helen Tupper: It will be a matrix before you know it!

Sarah Ellis: No, it definitely won't, it needs to be a grid, because I've written it as a grid.  So, this grid, or table I guess, this is quite confronting, because essentially, it looks at how you self-sabotage, the excuses that you make for that self-sabotage and the consequences.  So, that's why it's quite confronting.  So, big reminder here, this is not to try and make you feel worse, but I did find this really useful to be more specific. So, rather than just being, "I'm a Hyper-Achiever", or some of these big statements and big profile things, this is where you get specific about, how does this show up in what you do, and probably particularly what you don't do, and therefore what's the "so what?" in terms of the impact.  So, your grid has three headers, which are: what are your self-sabotaging activities; what are the excuses, what does it sound like, the excuses that you probably tell yourself in your head, that's the second part; and then the third part is, what are you sabotaging?  I know you're sabotaging yourself, but very specifically what does that look like? I mean, once I got started, I found this table -- I was going, "Oh, put a couple of examples", and I got to five in about three minutes, and then I stopped myself!  But I'll just give you a few. 

So, one from maybe more personal life; so straightaway I was like okay, so I sabotage: one thing I don't do is I don't go to the doctors.  What's the excuse that I make?  I'm too busy, it's really difficult to sort out, it's really time-consuming, there's more important things, basically.  So, think about what are you sabotaging?  Your health; this is where it starts to get quite confronting, "Oh, just that little thing.  Okay!" My next one was, fitting in important work around the edges of a day, rather than prioritising it; and what's the excuse that I make?  It's not my fault.  So, I get a bit victimlike, I think here, "It's not in my control, this is not something I could have sorted out.  If I had been in control of this, obviously it would have all been fine", that's kind of what I'm saying in my head.  And then what are you sabotaging?  The quality of your work that you produce. A really small one, which actually I have worked quite hard on recently, so this is less of a big one for me, but it used to be: scrolling on Instagram before bed.  So as in, did I say "before bed"?  Actually, in bed, just being like, "I'm just going to scroll on Instagram for ten minutes".  Then I couldn't even think of an excuse to give myself an excuse.  I was just like, "No, because it's so stupid!"  I got really angry at myself, "This is such a stupid thing to do!" and I know why, and I've read all the books that tell you why, and yet I still do it.  So, I couldn't actually even come up with my own excuse.  And, what are you sabotaging?  My reading time, because I read in bed; but also obviously, your sleep also feels quite important. Anyway, the list went on.  I got into things like comparison and avoiding difficult conversations.  It was at this point where I was like, "Oh, maybe I do quite a lot of self-sabotaging".  I found this a really helpful springboard to then figure out, "Which of these am I going to start with; which one feels most important?"  I do think it's very hard to do this without straying into personal as well as professional actions.  But I found that grid just gave me some good clarity to get started.

Helen Tupper: It makes me think as well, like I was thinking about what's some of my self-saboteur activity.  I say, working on the sofa in the evening.  And my excuse would be, "Yeah, but we run our own business and this work needs to get done".  But ultimately, I think I'm sabotaging my rest and relationships by doing that, because I don't protect that boundary.  And I can definitely see ones that are more work-y ones as well. So, what would be a self-sabotage, very work-y activity, would be my tunnel-visioned focus to get something done; and in order to get it done, I'll do it myself.  The excuse would be, "Well, I could just get it out there quicker, so it would get it done".  And then, what am I sabotaging?  I think the quality of the work, because it could definitely be better; probably my prioritisation, as what's the most important work to do, not just what's the work that I can do myself in my own way.  I think those sorts of things come into it. I find this a really useful thing to go through as well, Sarah, I agree.  It helps you to start almost bottom-up.  You know a lot of those surveys are top-down, you know, "Complete the survey, here's your profile"; whereas this makes you take a step back and almost think more broadly, what are some of those different behaviours or activities that might be getting in your way, and what is the bigger impact of it, if you think it through.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's almost a different stream.  You zoom out to look at all of your personality, which that's the bit that can get a bit deeper.  And also, you might not feel that it's the right time to do that, or you might not be particularly up for doing that versus I think the grid is much more of a zoom in, how does self-sabotaging impact your week right now, or at the moment; what does that look like, and be really specific about that.

Helen Tupper: So, idea for action number two is about responding to this greater awareness you've got about how self-sabotage might be getting in your way.  And as Sarah said, you can't really get rid of this straightaway, but you can reduce the impact of it.  And over time, hopefully, you can stop self-sabotage, this particular one that you might be focusing on, from affecting your happiness or your performance. The way that we're going to do this is think about, how do we go from getting in our own way to getting out of our own way?  What you can do is write yourself a set of cycle-breaking instructions. 

Because, what you've got at the moment is almost your saboteur on autopilot.  Maybe you're aware of it now, which is definitely a good start.  But what happens is, when it's on autopilot, if it's driving your actions and it's getting in your way, and you're probably not even that aware of it.  So, we need to be very conscious about breaking the cycle. It starts with you thinking about, "What is this unhelpful cycle, this unhelpful pattern of behaviour that you want to break?"  So my example was working on the sofa in the evening, because that's affecting my rest and potentially my relationships.  And what we're trying to do is almost create some psychological distance, by imaging how you would advise somebody else that you care about, who might be stuck in this cycle that you're experiencing. So, let's say I'm trying to imagine if I was to give Sarah some advice, because she was caught in this work trap in the evening, what would that advice be?  And what you want to do is write down that advice to break the cycle, but in no more than five steps, and be as clear and specific as you can about what you would advise that person to do. If I work through this example with you, my unhelpful cycle is working in the evening on the sofa, and we've talked about the impact of that.  And if I was imagining that was what Sarah was struggling with, what advice would I give her to break that cycle? 

The first thing that I would do is I would say, "Put half an hour in at the end of your day as protected time to finish the bits that would be on your mind if you didn't", so that would be the first thing I'd do, and put that in a diary. The second thing that I would say is, "When you come in your door, leave your laptop at another one".  Go and put that laptop in a different room, not one that you are going to be in in the evening.  It's almost the finding a bit of friction.  Make it a very conscious choice that you've got to go up your stairs, or wherever it would be, but it's not there in front of you. Then, the third thing I would say would be, "Let Sarah's other half, Tom, let Tom know what you're doing, and maybe tell a friend as well", who can almost act as a bit of accountability partners for you, so that if you do find yourself grabbing that laptop, they can be saying to you, "You wanted me to let you know when you were going to do that and I can see you're grabbing it.  Is that something you definitely want to do?" not to check up on you, but I guess to check in with you, that that is a conscious choice that you want to make. So, even just saying that, I think gets me to some more clarity in thinking about what advice I would give to Sarah versus how I would manage that if I was thinking about it myself, particularly because there are three parts of that, and I think I'd just say, "Oh, I'll leave my laptop in another room", and I'd stop there, and I don't think it would be creating as much cycle-breaking activity as the three things that I've identified by imagining it with Sarah, that I was trying to support with it.

Sarah Ellis: When I was reading and getting some inspiration for this idea, I really liked the thought that you almost write this as if it's almost an instruction manual.  So, you know that somebody could just pick it up and follow those instructions step-by-step.  I suppose not all instruction manuals live up to this dream, but the idea is they are simple, easy to follow, and they kind of make sense one after the other. 

But you don't want to be more than five, because any more than that, we won't remember. With Helen's three there, you don't just want one thing, because the one thing is probably the thing you've already thought of.  So, I'm sure Helen's already thought of, "Well, maybe I could put my laptop in another room", but the point is, she doesn't do it.  Whereas actually, by then almost having those different steps, it then just starts to remind you to think, "Well, no, I am going to try and break this cycle".  It will probably feel really hard and uncomfortable, that first time that you do it, but it will get a bit easier. I tried this last week.  As I mentioned, I was on holiday; smug, that's why I'm so relaxed, that and the gin! 

But I was on holiday last week, and I was quite mindful of the Instagram scrolling one, because I was thinking, "I don't really know why I do that.  I don't think it adds anything to my life", but yet it had become this sort of -- and I don't think it helps me sleep and it's taking away from reading time. So, I was like, "What are the steps I would be telling someone else?", because I would definitely almost be a bit, "That's not a good thing to do before bed", we all know that.  So for me, it wasn't just about thinking, "I'm just going to take Instagram off my phone forever", because that also felt like something I didn't want to do.  But for my holiday, I did take Instagram off my home screen.  So, to Helen's point about adding friction, finding friction, I made it harder to access. I then bought three books that I was really excited about reading, so I was like, "Well, I've got these three books now that I can read while I'm on holiday".  And then almost the first thing that I pick up when I get into bed is now, I actually read on my Kindle, and don't pick up the phone. 

Because, I think that was the other thing, is that I'd got into this habit of getting into bed and picking up my phone and almost being like, "Any WhatsApp messages?" look at Instagram, like I'm sure lots and lots of people do.  Whereas now, I'm trying to be like, "No, the thing you pick up when you get into bed is your book, it's not your phone". So, that was the three steps for me.  And on holiday, honestly, the first day, I still picked up my phone, but then Instagram wasn't there and I was like, "Oh, yeah".  It's funny how quickly you just go, "Okay, fine", and you put your phone back down and just start reading.  But then the next day, I just picked up my Kindle.  And by the end of the week, I had definitely broken that cycle, and I'd sort of forgotten that it was there, and I had to re-remember to think, "Oh yeah, I need to find that again, because I actually do like using Instagram some of the time, and we use it for work, but I just don't want it to be using at that time".  So, I have seen this work in a really small way for me in the last week. Idea for action three is about creating your own self-support reward system.  So, this is really all about prioritising the carrot rather than the stick, and treating yourself, for all of you Parks and Recreation fans out there. We can all be a bit guilty of using delaying tactics to keep our self-saboteur alive and well, and that sounds like, "I'll sort this out when I've got a bit more time, work slows down a bit, I'm a bit less stressed".  Do you know what I weirdly do?  I'll sometimes be like, "On the first of the month!"  I do that all the time though. 

Definitely for some of my personal life stuff, that I do actually really need to sort out, I'll be like, "Okay, well it's too much for this month, but on 1 June, it's all going to change; on 1 July, it's all going to change", and I have these weird start-of-the-month things, but nothing ever changes obviously, but still I think it helps me in my head. But all it's actually doing is basically, it's a really good delaying tactic; you're making excuses.  And the problem is, if you're waiting for the moment of, "I'll sort this out when the world is perfect", it's never going to happen, and you feel quite guilty that you've then not done the thing that you've wanted to know, so you've not done anything differently.  And so, if anything, the cycle just continues, and you probably feel even worse. I really recognise this behaviour in myself.  Because I'm quite future-oriented, I wonder whether this is more of a challenge for me; I don't know.  We'll have to see with Helen, because Helen's definitely more present-oriented than me.  But I think because I naturally like to look ahead, I think this also sometimes gets in my way, because I'll think, "Well, in September, I'm going to try doing this thing differently, but I won't do it for now", and I find that easier, I think, to think about the future.

Helen Tupper: I don't know if I delay; I think I justify more.  So you might be, "I'll sort this out in the future", and I think, "Do I really need to sort this out, because maybe it's not so bad actually?"  I think I find -- that's why that thing in that survey about the lies that you tell yourself really resonated with me, because I think I justify my saboteur.  Even if I have got a bit of awareness of it, I almost don't address it, because I find ways to justify the benefit that it brings, and I choose to ignore the barriers that it might create for myself.

Sarah Ellis: So, maybe I delay and you justify.  It's quite interesting, isn't it, to think, "So, what do you do in response to it"?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: So, if you are like me and maybe you do delay doing anything about it, you've got to create some urgency, some nowness about making change happen.  And really practically, one of the things that I was reading about that can be really helpful if this idea of, we are all quite motivated by rewards, and I was like, "Yeah, I get this!" The idea here is that within a week, on a Monday, you would put a reminder in your diary at the start of a Monday of what you're not going to do that week, as in the self-sabotaging activity or behaviour that you want to stop, and also in that same reminder, you'd also have, "And this is how I'm going to reward myself on Friday", or on Sunday, or whenever it might be, "when I have not done that thing". So, let's say with the Instagram example, I was like, "Right, on Monday, no Instagram scrolling before bed this week, and on Friday I'm going to buy myself that book that I've had my eye on for a while".  And if you want to, some people find it really helpful to have the same reminder at the start of their day every day, for at least the first week when you're trying to, again, going back to breaking those cycles.  I guess it's sort of like a positive affirmation, but it's more about basically stopping your self-saboteur, and it's that constant reinforcement of, "This is something I want to do differently", and maybe seeing it at the start of every day. 

But I felt like seeing it at the start of my week would probably be enough. But then, on the Friday or the Sunday, you get a new reminder basically congratulating yourself, which I actually did find quite appealing, to be honest; I'm so needy, "A little congratulation email; brilliant"!  And you either send yourself an email or you just have a reminder going almost, "Well done, you've done it!" recognising that this is hard to do.  So, yeah, the Instagram thing might not sound like a big deal, but lots of self-sabotaging behaviours, breaking those cycles are really hard; perfectionism, comparison, all of those big things. So, if you've managed to do a bit less of that thing that week, then actually going, "Well done, that's a good achievement", and then you getting your reward, whether it's a book, a coffee, stationery, chocolate, whatever it might be, is a good thing. 

And that doesn't mean you have to do something every day consistently. Let's say I was doing the Instagram thing for the first time, it might be in week one it was, "My aim for the first week is just not to scroll on Instagram before bed at least two nights this week", and as long as you just do the two nights, that's it, you get your reward.  And you get a little reminder on Friday going, "Hooray, you've stopped the scroll (some of the time)!" and you get your link to buy the book that you want to buy. Then maybe the next week you do, "Now, I'm going to go for three nights this week", depending on, I think, the scale of the sabotage, because I think with the Instagram thing, I found that quite easy.  That's a very small example, so I don't want to diminish, I think, some of the bigger ones I've talked about, in terms of whether it's comparison or doing work at the right time, in the right parts of our day.  I suspect you wouldn't find it really easy to stop, I'm thinking about your sofa example.  I think that would be harder for you than my Instagram example, do you think, to suddenly go, "Every night, I'm just going to stop doing any work"?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and I think the thing that would work for me would be reminders plus rewards.  So, you know you talked about them, but I think because I like tech, I'd probably use either something like futureme.org to send me little messages, so I'd sort of plan it in advance of the day three, day six, day ten, or whatever, little messages; or, I would use an app like Habitify, or there's another app called Fabulous that you can use, basically those habit-tracking apps.

Sarah Ellis: I quite like those.

Helen Tupper: I quite like Gamified, Gamified career development!  But basically, if I could have a self-saboteur streak, like, "How much have I stopped my self-saboteur?" and lots of those apps have those little streaks, so that you can be like, "I haven't used my laptop today".  And I think the more I could see the streak, the more motivated I would be to continue the activity that you talk about.  That would sort of be enough of a reward for me, keeping the streak going.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and that's why it's so interesting, isn't it, and why it's such a good reminder that we all have to design our own development.  It's almost knowing yourself well enough to go, for you it's about gamifying, you'd like seeing the progress; for me, I just need the email telling me I've done a good job!  That is literally it!  And I think if I knew that was coming, I wouldn't want to not get it.  So, you know the fear of then not achieving, because of my achievement thing of 9.4?

Helen Tupper: Because your conscience is calling!

Sarah Ellis: I'd be like, "Oh, okay, well it's going to stop me doing that behaviour".  So I think, whatever this looks like for you, I think the key thing is coupling that self-awareness and then the actions, because I think lots of people, I think, would already understand how this gets in their way, and they'll see these behaviours. So I think the key is the part two of what we've talked about today, is going, what are you going to try out?  Don't try and do all of it overnight and don't expect yourself to -- you're not trying to fix yourself, going back to where we started with, everybody has these behaviours, and they are there for a reason and we don't need to beat ourselves up.  But if we can get out of our own way, if has so many good advantages, not only in terms of our learning and our potential and our possibilities, but I was even reading an article about how much self-sabotage contributes to burnout, because it's almost one other thing in your day.

You're like, "I've already got the stresses that I can't control", then you add on a load of extra stresses, which almost probably get that over to that, you know we talk about the stress bucket overflowing?  And it was really interesting actually, that research on how much self-sabotage, and people need more support about how to manage that, but within a work context, because say you were very into being very perfect; you can see how that could really hold you back, and you could really see how that could lead to burnout. Or, if you're comparing yourself and feeling like you're not progressing as quickly as everybody else, you spend so much time worrying about that, that then you get behind on the work you need to do. 

You can see how these negative loops can actually end up being really serious for us, in terms of our wellbeing and just day-to-day enjoyment of the work that we do. So, this is worth spending some time thinking about in terms of, what does this look like for you?  And even if you are like me, and you started off with the blissful ignorance, which I did quite enjoy, to be honest, for a while, until I got halfway through preparing for this podcast!  But I have now got to the end of it and thought there are definitely some things, some cycles, that I'm almost quite intrigued and curious about, can I break those cycles.  I think seeing the cycles in that way of going -- approach those cycles with curiosity and commitment, and get some support from other people as well, rather than feeling like you have to change everything all at once, which I think is very hard to do.

Helen Tupper: I do think everything that we've talked about today benefits from a discussion with somebody else.  The reason that Sarah and I can be so open is because you're all not in a room with us, so we don't really know that you're listening, so some of that vulnerability doesn't feel quite so exposing; but also, because Sarah and I know each other so well, so we see this in each other and we are good at supporting each other and being each other's accountability partners. I think this really benefits from having somebody like that, either someone outside of your work, who you trust to have that sort of conversation and talk with; or someone inside of the work, who can maybe support you with some of the actions that you could do. 

I think it would be really, really helpful to have that. The summary that we do in the PodSheet, which will have the ideas for action that we've talked about; we'll put the link, for example, to the School of Life video and the link to the survey that you can take on Positive Intelligence.  All that will be there, and you could work that through together, either just two of you, or in a group.  But I definitely think that resource will help you to put these ideas into action, and particularly if you can do it with somebody else as well.

Sarah Ellis: So, thank you so much for listening, that's everything for this week.  And very best of luck with that self-sabotaging cycle-breaking.  We know it's not easy, but it's definitely worth the effort.  If you've ever got any topics or ideas of things that you'd like us to talk about, please do always get in touch.  We definitely take requests, and some of our most popular topics have come from people saying, "Have you got an episode on this?" and we'll say, "Of course we've got an episode on that", and then we look and think, "No, we haven't". So, it is always worth emailing us if you can't find an episode that would be really useful for you and your career.  And as a reminder, we're just helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com.  But that's all for this week, and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.