Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:37: Why multitasking matters

00:03:12: Task switch costs

00:05:04: Multitasking with neurodiversity

00:06:05: A scale of monotasking to multitasking

00:13:03: Ideas for action…

00:13:18: … 1: interruption audit, and finding friction

00:24:32: … 2: mindful monotasking

00:28:39: … 3: win watch

00:31:10: … 4: game your brain

00:34:51: … 5: progress pairs

00:37:38: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week we talk about some ideas and some tools that we really hope will help you, and they do always help us, to navigate our increasingly Squiggly Careers with just a bit more confidence, clarity and control.  And this week, we're talking about a topic that I've really enjoyed spending time with, we'll see whether Helen's felt the same about it, which is all about how to stop multitasking so that we can do more of the work that matters to us and feels really meaningful.

Helen Tupper: I think that this experience will be the opposite of the one, the podcast that we recorded, on when it is great to be good enough.  And I got to sit there the whole time like, yeah, this doesn't apply to me.  I can let stuff go really easily.  And you were like --

Sarah Ellis: You were really good at that one!

Helen Tupper: I know, so basically it was just like a critique of you.  I feel like this one is like --

Sarah Ellis: The revenge!

Helen Tupper: -- it's like the revenge episode.

Sarah Ellis: It's basically feedback for Helen!

Helen Tupper: "Stop multitasking and just stick at something!"

Sarah Ellis: Well, every time I read an extra bit of research that was even more compelling, I was like, "Yes, I'm going to put that one in", I was just really enjoying it.

Helen Tupper: Well, as long as I come out from this critique with some practical ideas for action that I can implement.

Sarah Ellis: You will.

Helen Tupper: Great, great.  Good to know everybody!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you know you will because you've come up with some of them!

Helen Tupper: I just need to do them now.  So, for anybody else who thinks that they would like to do something practical with the conversation that you're about to hear, don't forget you can download the PodSheet, which summarises everything, and you can swipe through the PodNote, all those great things.  They are on our website, amazingif.com, or you can find them on social.  We're @amazingif on LinkedIn and on Instagram. So let's start with, why does multitasking matter to us in our development?  If it's not obvious, I feel like actually common sense is that multitasking doesn't really work.  I think some people convince themselves that maybe they're the exception to the rule because they're very good at it.

Sarah Ellis: Oh yeah, you're talking about yourself now!

Helen Tupper: No, because I think I'm getting worse; we'll talk about that.  I think my multitasking effectiveness is just getting worse, or maybe the impact of it is getting bigger.  I don't know, but I would like to stop doing it as much as I do.  And actually, I think the context for multitasking makes it harder now to stop.  There is so much to do and there's so much information, and I always feel like there's another thing to read or to action or to get done.  And so that pull on our brains, particularly if you're someone who is susceptible for this, I think our working context makes it harder than ever. What happens is, we get more wired because we're trying to do more and more things and we get more tired, and all that happens is we make more mistakes and we get less done.  That's why it matters, it just isn't very effective as a way of working.

Sarah Ellis: It's also a myth which I find really interesting.  So, our brains can't actually multitask.  I think it's a phrase that we've all got really used to saying, "Oh, I've just got to do loads of multitasking", but that's not what we're doing.  What we're doing is switching really quickly between tasks, and our brains are actually wired to be monotaskers, so one thing at once, not multitaskers. When you go into the research, lots of the scientists describe what happens when we multitask and they call it "task switch costs", so basically a long list of all the disadvantages of multitasking and it's very hard to find any good news. 

I did find one, so for balance I did try to find one, because you see that when we multitask, we make more mistakes.  Interestingly, I didn't know this was true until I started researching for today, it reduces our memory capacity, both our working memory and our long-term memory, so not good for retaining important information; our thoughts get more muddled, that's what made sense to me because I was like, our brain's trying to be in too many places at once; and it increases our stress.  So in summary, our work gets worse and our work takes longer.  So it should be a really good incentive to think differently about multitasking and actually think, "Well, what might we do instead?" There is the exception, though; I will include this because I was reading about when multitasking can be helpful. 

And actually, if you are doing creative problem-solving or if you're getting a bit stuck, often doing something else, kind of as a distraction or just something different to take our attention in a new direction, can be useful.  So the examples they give are like going for a walk, when you feel like you're going around in circles; even if you went to do some cooking when you were trying to think about a problem and you just felt like, "Oh, something's not quite clicking here".  That can actually be really useful, leaving a problem and coming back to it, but letting our brains mull it over or think about it in a slightly different context.  That also makes sense to me because that's something that I definitely do whenever I just feel like, "Oh, do you know what, I'm not making the progress I need to".  So, there are some examples.

Helen Tupper: So intentional creative distractions are fine, but multitasking is bad for your brain.  That's our headline.

Sarah Ellis: Yes, that's our headline.

Helen Tupper: One thing as well, I think, when we are talking about multitasking and the ideas for action that we're going to share to help you with it, if it's something you think I guess you suffer from really, in terms of how it affects your work, is that I think there is a context that we need to be aware of in terms of neurodiversity, which is that people who have a condition within neurodiversity find focusing on one thing for a long period of time harder because it's just not the way that their brain works.  And I think, the ideas for action that we are about to share are not specifically for people who would identify as neurodiverse. However, we did recently record a podcast on this with David Pugh-Jones and Sam Hiew, and I would recommend giving that a listen.  And also, David is one of the founding members of a charity, the Neurodiversity in Business Charity, and there are lots of resources on there.  So I think if you would like a little bit more specific support, then I would listen there and head to that website to get some information that might be useful.

Sarah Ellis: So, if you were giving yourself a score out of ten, Helen, to get us started on how good are you at doing one thing at once, what is your current capability, because I do think scales sometimes help us with where are we starting from?

Helen Tupper: So, I've got monotasking on one end and multitasking on the other?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: I am not very -- I can monotask, but only for a short period of time.  And I'd say, for me, it's not where you sit on the scale, it's more how long can I monotask for.  I think my biggest thing would be to make that time a bit longer.  So I would say, probably at the moment, 30 minutes before I would get distracted by something. 

So if you said to me, "Helen, we're going to need to write book three", I'm basically writing it in 30-minute sprints with lots of distractions in the middle.  It's not very effective!  So, the moment I get to any kind of deep work, I'm like, "Oh, distraction!"  So, I don't think I am very good at it because my brain can't sit at the moment with one thing for very long.  And I think that's got worse. When I was prepping this podcast, I was thinking about when my children were young, I was trying to work out, why is it; what's changed?  When I had my first child, Henry, I was doing my MBA.  He was a little baby and I would get up early in the morning at the weekend, because I was working, and I would probably do work on my MBA from sort of 5.30 until 8.30 on a Saturday and a Sunday, and that meant that I could make progress and it didn't affect my working week.  I cannot imagine that I've got the energy to do that anymore.

Sarah Ellis: No one has the energy to do that though, Helen, that sounds like madness!

Helen Tupper: But I did then and I'm like, "What has changed?"  And I'm like, "Is it work?  Is it my children are harder work?  Is it age?"  I mean, I'm eight years on from that point; is it age?  I don't know, but I was like, "Has my brain degraded in some way that means, because of maybe the way that I've been working, all the things that we said, this is the issue with multitasking, it does affect our brain?"  I haven't got the answer, but I think, "Well, I used to be better.  It didn't used to be 30 minutes.  It could definitely have been 3 hours, 8 years ago.  So something's happened".

Sarah Ellis: Well, one of the things you do read a bit about is just the importance of practice.  So, one of the things that could have happened is that you're out of practice.  So, it sounded to me like you got a bit of a ritual and a routine there about those three hours, so you were putting in some good quality practice around monotasking and staying focused on one thing at once.  Maybe over time, maybe over the last eight years, you've just done less and less of that and had less practising, and so you've sort of got to almost rediscover the practice.

Helen Tupper: I mean there's ritual routine in reality isn't there?  My 6-year-old gets up at 6.30am, my 8-year-old's up at 7.00am, and it is interesting.  It's just I felt honestly a bit disappointed in myself when I was reflecting on it, but I was like, "I want that back, that time back, time to achieve those bigger things that just take longer".  So, yeah, I was definitely like, "I want that back, I want that brain back".  What about you with your brilliant monotasking abilities?  Tell us more!

Sarah Ellis: I don't know if I'm brilliant.  I think, well, I've done a lot of the reading and spoken to quite a few people around this topic, which is just an area that I'm really interested in, particularly speaking to Johann Hari, and I read his brilliant book, Stolen Focus, that I would recommend to everybody, and he's been on our podcast.  I think it really made me re-evaluate how I was spending my time and what time well spent looked like for me.  And I don't think I'm a natural multitasker anyway, I'm single-minded as a person, I'm single-minded and I'm determined, and I think in some ways that works in my favour.  I'm quite good at ignoring other things and other people when I'm trying to get something done.  And I do enjoy the feeling of what happens when you find your flow because you've done something almost for a long period of time and you've really got into it, and often it's hard and it feels difficult along the way. But then, when I reflect back on all the things I feel most proud of, it's always been from that sort of monotasking-type mentality. 

And even in a day, very kind of more basically and practically, I never feel good if I've done loads of switching.  So, if I've had to switch lots and lots, I actually get very frustrated.  And to your point, I'm not feeling proud of myself.  So, I think it's been over time a kind of commitment and then recommitment to it, and I see that I'm better because of it.  And also, I just don't think I back myself to be good enough to do the multitasking. I think I'm quite motivated by when it's like, "Well, you'll be more stressed, you'll make more mistakes, your work will be worse"; I don't want any of those things, I want to be really good at what I do.  And I think some of those, like I suppose they are carrots rather than sticks, aren't they; like, I want the good stuff, and it just helps me to think, "Okay, well just stick and do one thing at once and then I'll have more time at the end of the day to do other things" or just, "The quality of that brief that I'm writing will be better". 

I'm by no means perfect, which we'll talk about next, but I think it maybe plays to my personality more. I do wonder if there's sort of a personality thing here where some people are just naturally more attracted to multitasking versus monotasking, because I see that in you and me.  Neither of us are better, we're just different.  And I just see that I don't find it as hard, particularly with some of the tech stuff that we'll talk about.  I don't almost feel the appeal, I think, sometimes that you do of having loads of stuff happening all at once.  I think you might find it energising; I think I find it depleting.  So that's also interesting, I think, as you're listening to this, just know where you're starting from because then I think you can figure out what's going to make the most difference for you, and I think what you and I are both practising or kind of trying out will look and feel quite different.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I mean I definitely do find it energising because it gives me a sense of pace and momentum, but the issue is it's not effective.  So, I've got these two values which are almost maybe competing here: one of energy, which gets fed by me doing a lot of stuff at the same time; and one of achievement, which is held back because doing a lot of stuff at the same time stops me making more significant progress on things that are bigger and take longer.  So again, I think it's just useful to have that level of awareness about why this might feel hard for you in particular.  Maybe you're more of a doer than a thinker like me, maybe you've got some values that are a little bit in conflict, maybe it's just a habit that you've not really thought about before; but if you're more aware of what's driving it, I think it becomes a bit easier to unpick it.

Sarah Ellis: That's become more meaningful than I imagined it was going to be, given we're now about to do some very practical things about, "Do not multitask and here's what to do instead"!  It's like, "We got quite philosophical for a moment there".  Do you want to now talk about an interruption audit?

Helen Tupper: Yes, let's get into audits quickly, effectively.

Sarah Ellis: So, idea for action one is interruption audit, and this is becoming more aware of what, when and why you're likely to multitask.  So really, when do you go in to switching overload, because there is no one who doesn't experience this at some point during their week?  And I thought it might be useful to start with a couple of questions just to ask yourself. 

So, "When do I switch the most at work?  Is there a day; is there a time of the week; is there a time of the day?" so, when is that happening the most?  "When was the last time I worked for an hour without being interrupted?"  I often ask this question in workshops and people can't remember, and that makes me really sad. Then question three, "Roughly", and I say roughly because these numbers are usually quite high, "how many times do I interrupt or get interrupted in an average day at work?"  And please don't panic if that number is really high because again, I ask this question a lot and people are going, "I think it's like 250-plus"; other people are like, "1,000"; lots of people actually just say, "Constantly", so almost like it's not a number, it just feels like their days are full of constant interruptions.  Other people, give people credit, say, "Oh, maybe ten" and I'm like, "Okay, well that feels you're in a really positive place there, that feels much more manageable".  But I do think, and there'll probably be, I'm sure, some of these people listening, where they're like, wow, it's an overwhelming number that feels quite hard to grapple with, to even kind of take control of.

Helen Tupper: I almost want to ask a fourth question there as well, which is like, "And how is it making you feel?"  And I would imagine for a lot of people, either overwhelmed, tired, out of control, would be some of the words that would be responded to.  But I think once you kind of understand the feelings are probably quite negative for a lot of people, I think it creates the incentive and desire to do something a bit different; I might add that onto it.  And once you've got that level of awareness, because you've done the audit, so you've got some sort of insight into, "What does this look like for me right now?" what we want to do is take action so that we can stop those interruptions happening so easily and so constantly. The action that we recommend is to find friction.

  So, first of all you've got to understand what that distraction is.  So for me, for example, my biggest distraction would be Teams, Microsoft Teams messages, Instagram messages, LinkedIn messages, but actually very specifically on my phone.  So, I don't really see them on my desktop.  I guess I've turned whatever would alert me on my desktop off, it's just on my phone.  And when that distracts me -- so the "what" is those messages; when is, "Well, I'm working on my laptop".

So for example, this morning, early, I was working on the podcast, like research, about 6.00am this morning, and my phone was still going off with messages from my team, which is fine because everyone works a different way, but I had allowed myself to see those messages.  The easiest way for me to find some friction would have been to leave my phone in another room or even just turn it over.  That's a bit tempting, but I know very, very clearly what and when, I know very clearly what that is, and all I have to do to find some friction is to put my phone further away from me that feels easy to see; that is what I need to do.  And you kind of go, "Oh, that's quite a simple thing.  Next time I want to do some focus work, that's a very simple solution to a problem that's actually causing me some probably cumulative, quite significant issues in terms of what I'm working on".  So, that's how I can find some friction.

Sarah Ellis: And do you think what stops you from doing that at the moment is almost just not having the intention, like not practically thinking about it, and then it sort of happens before you even realise; or do you think it's like, "Yeah, I don't really even consciously think about it.  My phone's sort of there and then it happens and then I'm in it and it's too late"; so, do you think it's about intentional action and often those actions are quite small?  Or, do you think it's something more deep-seated than that, which is, "Well, I like to be needed?"

Helen Tupper: Yeah, interesting.  So Nir Eyal, when we had him on the podcast, it would be 2022, in January 2022, he said that the reason people get distracted, three reasons: internal, so there's something going on within you, like you're people pleasing or whatever, that reason; external, so something about your environment that's not very conducive to your attention, like maybe I'm working in the kitchen and the kids come down for breakfast or whatever, that's not very helpful; or just poor planning, like you're not doing this in the right time of day, where your brain's really in this kind of mode.

So, if I was trying to diagnose my distraction, I would say it's a little bit internal, because I want to be helpful.  I hate the thought that someone would be messaging me and they've got a question that I can answer, or something which I can help them with, and they're stuck because of me.  So, I translate that to, "I need to respond instantly", is how that comes in my brain.  And then it's probably just a bit external, like don't put your phone, if that's the worst thing, just don't put it on your desk or whatever when you're trying to do this thing, just make it a bit harder to get to.  So, I think just understanding, diagnosing the distractions for yourself, internal, external, or planning, is a helpful way of thinking it through. What about you?  I mean, you're not always the most amazing monotasker.  So, in those moments when you find yourself switching a little bit, what and when does that happen; and how would you find your friction?

Sarah Ellis: So, for me, the "what" is me getting in my own way.  So, it's thoughts and ideas, just general stuff happening in my brain, which means that I'm switching what I'm thinking about in the moment.  So, as somebody's talking to me, so let's say you and I were having a catch-up or having a team meeting, as I listen to people, it sparks thoughts, and so then I go off in a million different directions.  So I'm not doing those tasks, I don't think, " I need to do that task and then start that task", but I start thinking about it.  And so I start thinking about an idea or a solution or worrying, "Well, how is that task going to get done?" Then obviously, what you've stopped doing in that moment is you're not monotasking then because you're not listening and you're not present. 

And so then you might, well, you are going to miss what people have said, it means you can't contribute effectively, and I think people can tell, you know, people can read body language, and I think you can tell that people have sort of gone off in different directions.  So that's definitely not how I would want to show it, but I know, I sort of feel that happening, and so obviously I'll be less effective.  Also, I think you're then running the risk of your work taking longer, people having to repeat stuff like, "I'm going to have to go back to that because obviously I wasn't listening properly, or I didn't take the action that I was meant to take because I missed it". So that's definitely me, that's my brain sort of splitting its attention across too many things all at the same time. 

And I think for me to find friction, there are some practical things.  I think knowing that I have got space coming up to order my thoughts and to make sure that I feel on top of things and in control really helps me.  So if I can't see space, like if I can't see space at say an end of a day or the next day, I find that very difficult; that is a really practical thing.  And that space might just be like half an hour of sort of space to order my brain.  And I think when I've got it, it then releases the pressure somehow to have to think those thoughts in those moments because I just sort of go, "Oh, that's one for later".  I'm then present again, I go back to the mono moment much, much quicker because I'm like, "Yeah, one for tomorrow, one for later, leave it".  And I sort of let the thought go or I write something down quickly. Often I don't even need to write them down, to be honest, it's more just all of this just happening in my brain, doing my own head in basically.  So I don't even think often it's even a practical thing.  And also, the stuff that comes into my brain is a real mix of like, some of it feels important, some of it really doesn't, some of it feels useful, some of it isn't.  So, these are not incredible quality thoughts, just in case anyone's like, "Write them down so you don't lose them".  Most of them are absolutely fine to disappear.  So I think that is a really good practical one for me, that's a constant thing to keep coming back to, I always find that's true.  So that's not like, "In this week [or] in this day, that's particularly important"; that is always true for me.  Space for myself, by myself, helps me to stay present. All the rest of the time, I am horrendous.

  Back-to-back meetings is my worst-case scenario.  No space in between things is my worst-case scenario.  Helen's and my diaries as a result look very different.  So, Helen would rather do two or three things quite close to each other and then have a bigger gap, say, at the end of her day; whereas, I'm just a lot less effective when I work in that way.  So, if someone saw my diary, you see lots of half-an-hours, which would drive Helen mad.  But like a half an hour, and then do something, and then another half an hour.

Helen Tupper: I don't want your diary.

Sarah Ellis: I don't want yours either!  So I think I do know that about myself, but then every so often, you know when you've just been a bit lazy or not on it enough to make the space happen?  Now actually, interestingly, this happened today.  So, I didn't have the space today and my head was in five different places first thing this morning, a bit post-holiday, but also that's just an excuse, you've got to hold yourself to account.  But something then happened, something came out of my diary unexpectedly, and how I feel now is dramatically different because it unintentionally got created, the space got created, and I thought, "Do you know what, in hindsight, I should have known that the first day back from holiday always feels frantic and full on, I know that, and I've got zero space today", and that was never going to help me.  I was always then going to be a bit -- and I do, I then start multitasking in all sorts of ways, and I don't really feel like I'm making progress on anything.  So I think that's a practical thing for me.

Helen Tupper: And do you know what?  I knew you needed that space because I knew that thing had come out and I was like, "Oh, we could do this thing earlier".  And I was like, "No"; I knew you wouldn't want to.  Whereas obviously, you know me, I'm like dead space, fill it, dead space, fill it,

Sarah Ellis: You were like, "Let's do something with it"!  And I'm like, "No, no".  I literally went and got a cup of tea and sat outside in the sunshine.

Helen Tupper: And do you know what, it's not an idea for action, because I've literally just come up with it, but it would be an interesting experiment.  If you were going to design your diary for a week based on how your brain worked, how would it look different, is just an interesting -- almost like, "And why couldn't you?"  And here's probably some very practical reasons why you couldn't, but it might be worth seeing if you could challenge any of them and design your working week a little bit better for your brain.

Sarah Ellis: I'd love to do that with a neuroscientist.  We could get a neuroscientist on the podcast and say, "Okay, so how should we all be designing our weeks?"  I bet they'd all definitely say you should, you know, like about your circadian rhythms and you should probably be working less.  You should definitely be going out for walks, all those kinds of things.  Oh, maybe we'll come back to that if that'd be an interesting episode!  We'll find a neuroscientist to tell us how to work. Actually, it links quite nicely to idea for action two, which is on mindful monotasking.  And this idea was really inspired by borrowing some brilliance from surgeons.  So I was reading this article about who are the professions, who have got careers where they are good at monotasking, so they do one thing at once, almost sequentially, and they kind of work in sequence.  And they say surgeons have to be, because almost that is the nature of their jobs. 

And they were saying most people assume that surgeons, you know, it's all about like precision and steady hands, and obviously they have those things, and we're very grateful for those things.  But they were saying the real gift that surgeons have is this ability to single-mindedly focus on one person, and actually complete a series of tasks over actually long periods, so it's like hours and hours often. They were saying they don't all turn up naturally brilliant at this, it just all comes from practice.  And obviously the nature of their jobs means they get a lot of practice, and so they get better and better at doing this.  Perhaps if any surgeons listen, they can tell us whether that's true, because this was written by a doctor, so I'm assuming he's self-saying he's brilliant at it.  But I was like, "Okay, well you can apply that as a non-surgeon to your day-to-day in terms of how you design your week". 

And I thought it'd be a really interesting experiment to allocate time in your diary or in your calendar where you go, "I'm specifically going to use this time to do one thing at once.  And so, I will finish this thing before I move on to the next". I think it would feel really uncomfortable, but I suspect the more you do it, the easier it gets.  So, maybe you just try it for 15 minutes every day for a week; or, maybe you try it for one hour twice a week; then, maybe you build up to a morning or a day or a whole week.  What is interesting about this is this is you're not doing less work.  If anything, you do more work, and the quality of your work will increase.  You just sort of have to, I think, probably take a deep breath and believe it, because even I was thinking that's quite a big deal to shift to completely working in that way where you'd be like, "Okay, for this half an hour, I answer emails and then I stop answering emails because I then move on to my next task, and maybe I don't answer emails again for three more hours", so you're not always on, you're not switching really quickly between, "I'll do this page in this presentation, then I'll answer this email, and then I'll do it". 

You literally hold yourself to account, I guess, to those allocated time slots. Now, I don't think you want to be really rigid, but I do wonder whether if you almost color-coded them in your diary, I think that might be quite helpful; or maybe you gave them a name, like we've talked before about the idea of monk mode, where you stay very focused, you are doing one thing at once.  It might just help you to start practising, because that's the word I kept reading about this was like, "If you don't practise it, you won't get any better at monotasking".  We can all do it and our brains really want us to, so we've got to find opportunities to practice.

Helen Tupper: I think the other build that I would say is, somebody knows when a surgeon is in surgery.  So, the Amazon delivery is not like, "Can you just come out a minute, I've got a parcel for you", or whatever.  I think communicating that you're in surgery mode, whatever that sounds like, you know, like Sarah gave it a name or it's visible in the diary so that people go, "Helen's in surgery", or whatever the equivalent is, I think is quite helpful, because then they just know, "Okay, that's not a time when I could bother…". You're really good at this, Sarah.  We have filming days that Sarah and I do once a month, where we create lots of career development resources for the companies that we work with, and on those days we have to be really, really present. 

Sarah has seen me in particular get quite distracted and affected by interruptions on those days when it is just really important, we're in the zone, we've got a team of people recording us, it costs us a lot of money, you need to be there mentally and physically.  And so we communicate that to the team.  It's like, "We're in surgery mode today, we're filming all day, can we catch up later on anything you've got?" and everyone really respects that.  So I think communicating that to other people is quite important as well.

Idea for action number three is called win watch, and this is something that we do in Amazing If, and Sarah and I specifically do together, that I have found really, really helpful.  So what I have realised is not all work is of equal impact and there are some big things that you work towards that can be really important for your achievements and your motivations and your kind of sense of fulfilment, but they're often not things that can be delivered really quickly. 

And when you are multitasking, I think often the attraction is smaller, less significant things, because that's sort of easier for your brain to switch on and off, I find. But that task-based work is often at the expense of the more transformational stuff.  And one of the things that has really helped me is we have one page that we do every quarter, which we call win watch, and Sarah and I discuss what's going on win watch, and it's bigger things.  It's like, we're going to get a Harvard Business Review article out, for example, or there's something that we want to set up or a relationship we want to build, or something like that, not something that can be done in a day.  And what I find really useful is that we agree what goes on the win watch and then we come back to it regularly.  So we're going to talk about it on Thursday this week, for example.

Sarah Ellis: I looked at it today.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and just check in.  And what helps me actually is that Sarah is often even more focused on it than me.  So if I've not looked at it for a week or two, Sarah will just naturally bring it up.  She's not trying to check up on me, she's just checking on the win watch.

Sarah Ellis: That's what you think!

Helen Tupper: Find yourself a Sarah, and you can never forget what you've committed to!  But I find it really, really helps me to be like, "Oh, that is important, and I do want to work towards that.  And therefore, this other thing is getting in my way".  And I think I like that it is visual as well, and I like that I do it with Sarah.  I could do it on my own, it probably still would work on my own, but I do find it useful that I do it with somebody else as well.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and we say it's visual, I mean it's like it's the worst creative you've ever seen.  But it literally is just like six or eight boxes, but we just put a picture.  So, rather than just like writing something, I do think our brains love a visual.  So just by having those visuals, I think -- and also it's a quick shortcut for us.  And it honestly only takes us probably a quarter of an hour to create, and then we only ever usually look at it for like two minutes.

Helen Tupper: And we red, amber green it.  It's all quite quick.

Sarah Ellis: Really quick.  It just keeps you committed, which I find really helpful.  So, idea for action four, we're calling game your brain.  So here, we were trying to figure out what would really work for Helen; that was basically the essay question here that we were trying to answer because we were like, "Right, let's imagine you do find this really difficult".  Then we're like, "We don't need to imagine, Helen finds this difficult!"  What would work?  Our brains do love games and I think with this topic, I think you could get a bit hard on yourself and also it could feel a bit like a chore and you don't want it to feel preachy.

I'm really mindful that sometimes Helen and I have had conversations about things around this and I'm like, "But I don't want to feel like I'm telling Helen off", and clearly we work in really different ways.  And also, some of these things she obviously finds quite fun and I'm sort of going, "Well, don't look at your phone every five minutes, it's stressing you out".  But also, I can see you're getting a bit of energy sometimes from those things.  So we were like, "Right, how do we make it a bit more fun and a bit more light-hearted?" in terms of going, actually, this is something you could enjoy.  And our brains really like seeing progress. So one of the things that we were thinking here is, if you've got something quite big you're working on, and it doesn't even need to be that big, but something you're working on over a week, for example, you could break it down into lots of small sprints and small actions and use things like Post-it Notes, or you could use online versions of that Miro or Mural, and almost create a bit of a reward, almost create your own game that would work for you.  So we were thinking, there's a reason that like Duolingo does so well for people learning languages.  Yeah, it's simple, it's broken down, but the little owl thing, because we've both been doing it with our kids --

Helen Tupper: That's Duo, Sarah.  His name's Duo.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, is he?  And he just gives you, what you get, like stars or something, I don't know?

Helen Tupper: You get a streak every day, you get your things.  You do get your stars that you can redeem, but you don't want to lose your streak freeze, that's the game, so we don't want to lose our working streak freeze.

Sarah Ellis: Right.  And what's really interesting is Helen and I have both used that app with our kids, and I had got zero knowledge of what these things were.  I was like, "I think there are some stars involved", but I'm just not motivated by those things, where you could then describe to me for Duolingo, for Peloton, you could then name some apps that would then help you to do this.  And I just think you could actually have some fun creating this either by yourself and just be like, "Well, what would work for you?" and what rewards would feel motivating? I think the point about games and gaming generally is you get rewards.  So whether that is stars, whether you are doing something you find really fun, whether you're treating yourself to something, I think you have got to have a reward mechanism built into this for this to really work.  And maybe I can imagine this being something that could also work as a team, because even though I'm less bothered about the stars and streak thingy, I would be probably more bothered if I was doing it as a team.  And also I love achievement as well, so I'd still want the outcome, I'd want to win, I'm bothered by winning.  So if I was creating a game for me, I'd be like, "How can I create a game where I get to win?"  That would be my question!

Helen Tupper: I would just like lots of like green ticks.

Sarah Ellis: You want some ticks, and I want a prize!

Helen Tupper: Sarah mentioned the apps; Habit Tracker or the Productive app are both free.  I think there's probably some things that they make you pay for eventually, but you could break a project down into like a series of things that you can create your ticks or you get your thing you're going to win at the end of it using one of those, if that's helpful.  The benefit of those, but be careful, I was going to say the benefit of it is it will notify you every day.  But just be careful that that text is not taking you away from the task, is just to be aware of that.  So don't let the thing that's supposed to keep you committed become a daily distraction for you.  That's the opposite of what we want. Idea for action number five is about progress pairs.  Again, this is something that's worked for me.  So what I find is that if I'm trying to work on something, actually it's much easier to work on that thing with somebody else.  So, it's not about working on different things together, it's about working on the same thing together.  Because, let's say Sarah and I are writing an article or working on a new course that we want to create, something like that.  Actually, being in a room, and I do think it's even better if you can physically be in the same room together, and coming together to build that thing keeps me very, very committed.  I won't look at my phone unless it's an agreed time, like lunch.  Sarah's like, "You're allowed to look now".  But I don't want to, I'm in the zone with Sarah.

Sarah Ellis: I sound so fun to work with!

Helen Tupper: Great fun!  But I want to, it is actually more fun, the work is more fun doing it with somebody.  So the appeal of the distraction is less.  I'm like, "Well, I'm here and we're coming up with ideas".  And it's a bit like the streak freeze, I don't want to break that.  I know that the moment --

Sarah Ellis: No, I can never get you to break.  It's so interesting, isn't it though?  But when we're together, I'm the one who will say, "Okay, I need a break now, I need to go and get a coffee.  I do need to do something different for a bit".  I reckon you could keep going because actually, once you are in something, you're then incredibly focused. 

So actually, you have quite a personality change in those moments because you go from somebody who can do loads and loads of switching to someone who actually is incredibly like, "Right, we are doing this thing and I'm going to keep you here until we do it and we're going to stay in this room and I don't need any breaks".  So you become incredibly focused, almost relentlessly so.  So, what's brilliant is you know you can do it, and it's great that you can then see like what that looks like.  Maybe it's just about thinking, "Well, how could that work in smaller doses?" because often they're quite big chunks, aren't they, when we do that at the moment?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I agree.  And I do find it more effective for me when I'm with Sarah in person, but we have done it remotely and then I don't think you do do it for a whole day, then I think you do it for a couple of hours.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: And I think what helps then is keeping your camera on, because the moment that your camera is off, I think that the appeal of those things that will --

Sarah Ellis: Increases.

Helen Tupper: Yeah it does, it does, because I think you're less accountable.  But when your camera is on --

Sarah Ellis: If I said to you, "If we hadn't got our cameras on for a podcast day", I was like, "obviously I wouldn't look at my phone", I was like, "you wouldn't look at your phone", where you were like, "Yeah, I probably would".  I was like, "Oh, right, thanks for that!"

Helen Tupper: But, yeah, I probably would.  But the camera's on and I haven't.

Sarah Ellis: No, you haven't.

Helen Tupper: So, that's a win for us both! Sarah Ellis: That's because I can see your eyes; I can see your eyeballs!

Helen Tupper: So, quick recap of our five ideas for action then to help you to stop multitasking, everybody: number one, interruption audit; number two, mindful monotasking; number three, win watch; number four, game your brain; and number five, progress pairs.  And we'll put a summary of all of those ideas on the PodSheet for you.

Sarah Ellis: So thank you so much for listening, and if you have got the time to rate and review and share it with other people, we really appreciate it.  We read it every week and it really helps us to understand the impact that we're making.  But that's all for this week, we'll be back with you again soon.

Helen Tupper: Thank you everyone, speak to you again soon.