Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:30: Helen's people pleasing examples

00:06:28: Sarah's people pleasing examples

00:09:29: Familiarity breeds psychological safety

00:12:42: Eight people-pleasing factors

00:15:59: Ideas for actions…

00:16:16: … (1) saying yes when you want to say no

00:17:58: … (2) over-apologising

00:19:09: … (3) fear of sharing what you're thinking

00:21:37: … (4) avoiding conflict and criticism

00:23:13: … (5) having no boundaries

00:25:51: … (6) taking on too much yourself

00:29:21: … (7) moulding or masking yourself

00:31:46: … (8) requiring other people's validation

00:34:57: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we talk to you about a topic to help you with the ups and downs and ins and outs of your career, to give you some ideas for action and also just a little bit of support along the way, to help you with some of the challenges that we all face in our Squiggly Careers.  This week, we're talking about a topic we know resonates, because we asked our community about it, and that is the idea of people pleasing, and how we can stop it from getting in our way at work.

Sarah Ellis: So, let's just start off with what it is, why we do it, because let's face it, most of us do it at some point; then we will, as always with the podcast, spend the majority of our time thinking about how do we stop doing it, or maybe just do it a bit less, might be a more realistic ambition. So, people pleasing is when you put other people's needs ahead of your own, and we do it often to seek approval from other people. 

It is really worth watching a School of Life video that we'll link to in the resources, which does go a bit deeper into the psychology behind people pleasing, because often it's a behaviour that we learn when we're a kid, but then we unconsciously bring it into our grown-up life, almost without realising that's what's happening. It is possible to be pleasant and helpful and kind and caring without being a people pleaser.  I think maybe those are the two almost contradictions that perhaps we have in our minds when we're thinking about these things.  We want to still be all of those really good qualities, but without feeling like we're always putting other people's needs ahead of our own; because if we do that, that's when you feel emotionally drained, it's when you get really stressed, you feel really burnt out. We asked people on Instagram, "How many of you recognise this as a behaviour in yourself?" and it was over 80%, so pretty much everyone said, "I would describe myself as a people pleaser at least some of the time, and people were giving lots of examples of how that shows up for them. 

So, Helen, if you were in that Instagram poll, I don't know if you answered our own Instagram poll, would you describe yourself as a people pleaser; and if and when you do, how does that show up for you?

Helen Tupper: Oh, do you know, that's two big questions; one's easier than the other.  I don't know if I'd say I was a people pleaser, but that's because I feel like, "Gosh, I'm not sure I want that --"

Sarah Ellis: You don't want to be one!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, that's it!  I don't know if I want that badge.  Do I do people pleasing?  Yes, which is the slightly easier answer.  I was thinking about it actually, when do I do it, and when does it get in my way, when is it too much, when does it hold me back?  I was thinking about, I remember a situation, it was pre-pandemic --

Sarah Ellis: Pre-pandemic, there was life?

Helen Tupper: I know, a life pre-pandemic.  But it was really specific, because I was doing a lot of in-person training.  So, we'd been doing these full, in-person, all-day career development courses to 60 or 70 people in a room, and it's quite intense. 

And Sarah and I would do those on our own.  I remember this one particular situation, and it was a group, yeah, about 60 or 70 people, and I'd been doing the training; and basically what had happened is, in a training session, you will have breaks in the day, because everyone needs breaks for their brain, including me. However, I was being so helpful that when people were coming to me and saying, "Helen, can I have a chat with you about that thing you talked about?" in the break, I was like, "Yes, of course".  Then someone would say, "Helen, at lunchtime, can I just sit with you and go through that thing?" and I would be like, "I don't know if I want to say no to them and I want to help them", basically people pleasing, but at the cost of my own resilience basically, because those breaks were for me as well as them, so that I could be at my best in the room. What was happening was, not only was I quite tired, because I had no recovery time in that day, I was also a bit exposed to their emotions.  So I remember in that day, someone was particularly upset, and I could have helped that person, but it didn't have to be then and there, because that then meant that the other 69 people in the room didn't have the best of me. 

And it's a very hard balance to manage, but I think my people pleasing trumped my perspective in that situation. The only reason I was really aware of it was because I happened to have, the next day, a coaching session with somebody, someone was coaching me.  I remember it was in a car park in Crawley or somewhere, because the only slot I had was in my car on the way to somewhere.  I was talking to my coach and I was explaining this and she was basically saying, "You need to build better boundaries so that you can be at your best", and it really made me think, I think I was doing a bit of people pleasing, and that was getting in my way. I've also seen it a little bit more recently actually, when I was having a conversation with someone, and they seemed to be taking offence at something I was saying, and I don't think I'm a particularly offensive person.  But I went away from that thinking, "What did I do wrong?  Why was that person so sensitive to what I was saying?"  But then I think it got a bit of perspective on it, and realised that their sensitivity was more about them and less about me.

So, I think if I'd been an out-and-out people pleaser in that situation, I would have taken on all of their sensitivity as something that I had done.  And even though it was my initial reaction, I actually was able to get a bit of perspective and say, "I think that might have been more about them on that day, than something that I was thinking or saying".

So, that's why I'm saying, I don't think I'm a people pleaser all the time.  I think sometimes I have the perspective that gives me the ability to move on from a moment and do what might be right for me.  But there are also some situations where I think I go too far in supporting or helping or pleasing other people, and it puts myself not at my best.  Does that make sense?

Sarah Ellis: It does make sense, and also your natural personality of being a doer, someone who wants to take action, your default is to try and do something, to say yes to be helpful.  So often, when we're trying out new behaviours to stop some of this people pleasing, I think it will feel counterintuitive for us, depending on how your people pleasing shows up.  You're probably going to have to try something that doesn't feel very comfortable, and is a change in what you would typically do, and that is always hard, which is why it's one of those things that we often keep coming back to.  Maybe we know it about ourselves, but we're not sure what to do.  I think often, that's the gap with people pleasing.

Helen Tupper: So, do you do it; and if so, when do you do it?  Are you a people pleaser?

Sarah Ellis: Well initially, I thought no.  And then I started to read -- I've read and watched quite a lot of articles about people pleasing, preparing for this podcast, because initially, I wouldn't describe myself certainly in the way that you had, and I like to think I am helpful, but I don't think I default to yes in the same way that you do!

Helen Tupper: Helpfully harsh!  Joking.

Sarah Ellis: It's probably more true, to be honest.  I feel like I do sometimes come out of these podcasts really badly.  But the more I researched, one of the ways people pleasing shows up, and I read it and thought, "This is 100% me, and I can think of lots of examples of doing this", is to keep everybody happy and to please people, you say yes and you agree, when in your head the answer is no, or you disagree.

So, I really hate conflict and I've always found that really difficult, and it's something I've worked really hard on in my career, of how can I disagree with people constructively and usefully, and still stay engaged in those conversations.  My people pleasing is most likely to show up in those moments of maybe heated debate, or when maybe you and I are disagreeing and there's the extra level of pressure, maybe a time pressure, or I've got to make a decision quite quickly. I think I would just say yes when I thought no, and not only that, I then think my behaviour might become unhelpful, because I then think people might almost misunderstand some of my behaviour, because I might get a bit almost grumpy or a bit aggressive, or be a bit out of character, and I don't think people would necessarily know what's gone in my head in that moment, because I've had feedback before that people do see me as being relatively calm and quite pragmatic. So, I might agree with someone, and they might just really take that at face value, which is absolutely fair enough; but in my head, there's a bit of a thinker spiral going on where I'm like, "Well, I'm just saying yes to keep this person happy, to please them, but I don't agree, but I'm not going to say anything about it", and then I get in a really unhelpful spiral.  I mean, I think I was doing that yesterday, to be honest.  I don't find it that hard to think of examples!

Helen Tupper: That's so funny.  I just think anytime that you say yes to me quickly, it's normally because you're too tired to say no; because anytime that you can debate a point, or think it through a bit longer than I want to, you will!  So, anytime I get a quick yes, I never really think you're -- well, maybe you are people pleasing, but I think you feel like you're also just exhausted of discussing a point!

Sarah Ellis: So, I think people pleasing from me does come from conflict or criticism.  Again, that's quite a common example, when you start to dig into how people pleasing shows up.  I think it was more of a challenge for me in my career, earlier in my career, and perhaps actually in some of the other organisations I worked in, where you're working with a wider range of people, and I was still trying to figure out how I found my way through difficult conversations. I think with you and I it's a bit different, and partly that's because we know each other so well and we have such a high-trust team. 

I was thinking, as we go through these behaviours, and we're going to start talking about them more specifically, when you have a high-trust team, so you're in an environment where you feel safe and secure to be yourself, I think your people pleasing tendencies are less likely to show up, because I am more likely, because I feel good about our relationship, to think, "It's okay to challenge, it's okay to say no and to have a difficult conversation, because I've got that psychological safety". So I was thinking I feel like low psychological safety and high people pleasing, I've got zero evidence for this, but I feel like you'd see a correlation between those two sets of behaviours.

Helen Tupper: I agree, because you can be your full self and say all of what you think without a fear of repercussion in our relationship, but that's based on 20 years and talking and messaging each other constantly throughout the day, isn't it?  There's very little doubt in how we're feeling or what we're saying, and we repair that quite fast.  Whereas, when I've been in corporate organisations, you definitely wouldn't be so close to some of those people, and also you might not be able to repair that friction quite so quickly, because maybe it might be a week before you have that conversation again.  So, I agree, I can see that relationship. The way that we wanted to structure the conversation to help you with people pleasing is talk about eight ways that people pleasing shows up at work.  And when I go through these eight different ways, maybe think for yourself, which one of these feels familiar to you.  You could even give them a RAG status, or give a score one to ten, so you can see not only which one feels familiar, but how much of a people-pleasing challenge it might be for you. Then, what Sarah and I are going to do is go through an idea for action for each of them.  So, if you've got one or two or three of these factors that feel familiar, you have one, two or three actions you can take away from the podcast so you can stop people pleasing holding you back.

Sarah Ellis: And if you don't know what a RAG status is, because I do appreciate not everyone might do, I think that's very understandable, just Red Amber Green.  So, I think rather than just seeing all of these behaviours as equal, I suspect for most of us, there are some that show up more frequently than others, or feel harder for you to overcome, or perhaps feel like they are getting in your way in a more significant way that you really want to focus on. So, it's not trying to listen to these things we're going to talk about and adopting them all and going, "Yes, I do that, and I can do that"; it's more about going, which one of these is the best place for you to start, because we don't want to keep people pleasing.  It's not good for us and ultimately, it isn't good for the people around us either.

Helen Tupper: And just so that you know, we've summarised all of these, these eight different factors and the ideas for actions on the PodSheet.  So just listen now and think it through, and you can download the PodSheet, which you can get from the link on the description, or from our website at amazingif.com, and then you can do all your ticking and taking your actions away afterwards. So, here are the eight different factors: (1) you're a people pleaser if you say yes to things when you want to say no; (2) you say sorry a lot, even when it's not your fault; (3) you don't share your thoughts and feelings, in case it hurts someone, even when you might have been hurt by them; (4) you avoid conflict and criticism; (5) you don't maintain healthy boundaries, and that might be in terms of your time, or maybe in terms of your emotions; (6) you take on more than you can manage, rather than asking for help or delegating to others; (7) you change your personality to fit in with the people around you; and (8) you base your sense of worth on other people's validation.

Sarah Ellis: Oh no, I've got a new one, oh no!

Helen Tupper: You're not supposed to adopt them!  Which one have you just adopted?

Sarah Ellis: I was just thinking, yeah okay, (7) definitely in my career, earlier in my career, where you change your personality to fit in with others.  I once remember Poppy Jaman, who is a brilliant lady, she ran Mental Health England, and she talked about the mistake she made in her career was that she was too much of a chameleon, which essentially you're fitting in too much.  I can think of loads of examples of doing that, of being someone I wasn't, because I was just trying to fit in and belong, and felt like there was a right way to behave or to dress or just to be. Then I think, (8) I still base my sense of worth on others' validation.  I'd not really clocked that was to do with people pleasing, and I'm trying really hard to work on that and get validation from myself.

Helen Tupper: It makes me want to give you a hug!

Sarah Ellis: Well, to be a bit less needy, I think it's really needy.  So, I hadn't made the association with that and people pleasing.  But I guess that sometimes, you take action or you maybe do certain things because you want the praise, so you perhaps do the wrong things, or in the wrong order, more just because you want the positive validation versus going, "I'm a good enough judge at what I need to do and my work, and I know that work is good".

Helen Tupper: Yes, 100%.

Sarah Ellis: Of all of them actually, I think that (8) is probably the one that I need to work on most right now.  That one feels most relevant for me.  I still find, I know you're not meant to read reviews, but I read every single one of our book reviews, the exact opposite of what everyone says you should do, and I still really struggle with where one person leaves a review that's not a good review!  I think about it for days and I'm like, "Oh no!" and then I want to get in touch with that person, and I want to explain to them.  "Get over it and get over yourself", is my message there.  But yeah, that's the one, as we go through, I'm going to be, "Right, what can I do on that one.

Helen Tupper: Mine are different.  So, to your point, I think in different points in my career, I've had most of these.  But right now, mine would be (5) you don't maintain healthy boundaries, mainly in terms of time actually, rather than the emotion one now; and (6) you take on more than you can manage, rather than asking for help or delegating.  They're the two that probably get in my way that I could work on a bit more. So, what we're going to do now is take each of those eight factors, talk about the consequence of doing nothing, so if you continue people pleasing in this way, what's the outcome of that for you and your career, partly to give you the motivation to do something different.  And in terms of the doing something different, we've got an idea for action for you. So, I will start with (1) and that one was saying yes when you really want to say no. 

The consequence of that continuing for you in your career is that you're not going to do your most important work, so the work that is meaningful, motivating and important to you, because you're going to get bogged down with lots of other people's work.  You're going to be managing lots of other people's monkeys, to the topic of a conversation that we've covered recently. The thing for you to try instead is to create a pause, so pausing before you say yes.  This is proven to improve your decision-making.  It could be as simple as saying, "Let me come back to you on that".  It's anything that can give you just a moment to reflect on, is this the right thing for you to do; is it the right thing for you to be doing right now?  And you can ask for some more information, so that could also be part of your pausing.  You could say, "Okay, let me just think about this.  Can you tell me a bit more about what it is you need doing and when it needs doing by and what it's contributing towards?"  So, sometimes just getting a bit more information can create a bit of that pause.  And you really want to just take it away before you come back. You might choose to say yes, but you've chosen to say yes very consciously, or you might say, "Actually, I've thought about it, and if I am going to take that on, then something else needs to come away from the work that I'm doing".  Or, "I've thought about it, given the information, and I actually think that if that's the skill that you need, there might be someone better in the team to support", and it just gives you that moment in time to go back and confidently say yes, or clearly say no.

Sarah Ellis: The second area was about over-apologising, and if we continue to over-apologise, it undermines our gravitas and it reduces your self-belief at the same time.  So, it has an impact on you and how you feel, but also on how you're perceived by other people.  So, the idea for action here is, watch out for those words that cloud clarity.  Become more almost consciously incompetent, and figure out for you, what does that look like. Do you use the word "sorry", do you use "just", do you use "I think"?  One that I do, and it's not directly apologising; if I've described something to people, I end those explanations by saying, "Does that make sense?" but in a very like, it's very hard to say no to that question.  No one ever goes, "No, actually sorry, Sarah, I lost you about five minutes ago".  It's a slightly nuanced over-apology, but that is how it does show up for me.  It's almost clouding clarity, it's not a useful question, and I think it does undermine the quality of the conversations, and probably my self-belief in those moments, because I feel the need to say, "Does it make sense?"

Helen Tupper: So, (3) was about when you're people pleasing and you're afraid to share what you're thinking, because you're worried that if you do, then other people might think badly of you, or whatever the story you're telling yourself in your head is.  The issue there of that continuing is frustration will accumulate, because you're still thinking these thoughts, you're just not giving them any kind of outlet.  And rather than letting them go, they are taking up mental headspace, and they will be preventing you putting that effort and energy onto slightly more productive things.

So, what can help here, the idea for action if this is the challenge for you, is to use a bit of a structure that can help you to frame your feelings, because it can be hard to get them out of your head, particularly if you're a bit of a thinker, and maybe that reflection can turn to rumination; a simple structure that you can use to give your thoughts a bit of clarity can also help you to share what you're thinking with other people.  So, the one that we like is COIN and that is an acronym that stands for Context, Observations, Impact, Need. So, let's say I've had an argument with Sarah, or we've been in a bit of a discussion, and it's really bothered me because Sarah's said something and I feel a bit offended by what she's said.  Now, I'm really worried about saying that to Sarah, because I don't want to hurt her feelings and it's going round and round in my head.  What I could do is use the COIN structure just to get my thoughts together. So, the context might be, "We're working on a lot at the moment and we're both feeling a little bit tired"; the O would be, "I've observed that we're not spending as much time together talking about what we're doing, we're communicating a lot over WhatsApp"; and the impact of that is, "I think that we are doing short, sharp text messages that sometimes feel a bit blunt when we're sharing our own opinions".

Sarah Ellis: Is this your way of doing live feedback again?!

Helen Tupper: No, I'm just doing an example that's using a live and relevant example, Sarah, for our audience!  No, genuinely no.  But the need would be, "What I really need is, where we've got some point of disagreement, or something that we think we need to discuss, let's take it off WhatsApp and pick up the phone.

Sarah Ellis: Good advice!

Helen Tupper: Just thinking it through.  But that helps me to go, "Actually, that doesn't feel quite so scary now I've structured it, and it gives me the confidence to talk about it with Sarah as well.

Sarah Ellis: Number (4) all about avoiding conflict and criticism, so this is where you don't have constructive conversations that might involve debate or tough discussion.  And a consequence if we continue doing that, and I know this having done this for quite a long time, is that you limit your learning, because you don't benefit from other people's ideas and their input, and you miss out. 

You miss out on making things even better by having some of those hard conversations. So, an idea for action here, if this feels like you or you find this hard, and I still find this hard, I still have to work really hard to make this happen, rather than avoiding conflict and criticism, instead we can try inviting that conflict and criticism, which might sound like madness if this is something you find hard, but the reason this works so well is you feel more in control.  Often, conflict and criticism is particularly hard if you're surprised by it, if you didn't know that it was coming, but you can take control by creating an environment where you're inviting people to essentially disagree with you. So, this can look like challenge-and-build conversations, you can sometimes even name the conversations, and that just might be with one person where you think, "I feel like they'll almost enjoy having a different point of view to me, or enjoy offering a different perspective".  And you can ask them some really good questions like, "Why do you think this idea might not work?"  But certainly it's helped me to think really proactively about inviting different points of view.

Helen Tupper: So, (5) was all about having no boundaries.  So, the impact of not maintaining any boundaries, let's say you have them but you compromise them all the time, is that it can have negative impacts on other aspects on your life.  So, for example, one of mine might be someone's like, "Helen, can you come to this event in the evening?" and I think, "But I really want to see the kids, I didn't see them last night because I did something else.  I should see them", and I almost think I'll say no to it, and I'll basically say yes to somebody else, but I compromise my own personal life because of my inability to say no, because I want to be a people pleaser. Over the long term, that can affect your relationships, it can reduce your mental health, it can affect your physical health.  I might be thinking that genuinely, I know that doing exercise in the week is a really good thing for me to do, actually mentally, not just physically.  But by saying yes to other people, because I don't protect that boundary, I'm sort of saying no to myself, and that can really create an issue over the long term.  So, I was reading, because this was one of my challenges, so --

Sarah Ellis: Did a bit more research on this one!

Helen Tupper: -- I did a bit of extra research on this one, just for me, everybody!  Part of the challenge is, when you say to somebody, "I can't do that [or] I can't go to that event [or] I can't make that meeting", people might find ways to work around your can't, "Maybe you could if you did this", and then it can be hard to maintain that boundary.  But apparently, a much more confident thing, which I'm going to experiment with, is saying, "I don't". So, for example, I might say, "I don't take calls after 5.30pm, because that's when I go home to do my exercise", rather than just, "I can't do that tonight".  Or, "I don't go out more than two nights in the week, because I want to be there more than I'm not to put my kids to bed", and that use of "I don't", if you can find a way to use it that feels like you, I think you've got to do it in a way that sounds like you and feels like you, but ultimately I "don't", rather than I "can't", is the important word to add into there, it can be much more confident and it can help you to protect that boundary much more, so I thought that was a really simple language twist that could have quite a big impact.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I like that, and I can imagine using that.  Maybe when you're thinking about working in the evening, or when you're trying to protect time in a day, like I always really like protecting time to go for a walk, if you were like, "I don't work between 12.00pm and 1.00pm, because that's the time I always go for a walk every day", it's just you don't do that.

Helen Tupper: You just accept it, don't you?  If you say, "I don't", I'd be like -- whereas, if you said, "I can't", I might think, "Well, you could, and let me tell you how you could!  You could take me with you on your walk".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I could actually really imagine you saying that, so let's not do that!  So (6) is when you take on too much yourself, so you end up probably managing your own monkeys, managing everybody else's monkeys, and you're doing it all yourself, and that's where we get overwhelmed.  Also, other people can't learn how to help you.  If you end up taking everything on, you become the bottleneck, people can't support you, and you personally miss out on the opportunity to stretch yourself in new directions; because you're so busy doing everyone's work as well as your own, you have no space to do new stuff or to try things out or to experiment, and that's how we explore new potential. So topically, Helen and I have been talking about this one a bit, because we recognise that in the company that we both run together, sometimes Helen ends up doing lots of things for us and our company, which we are all very grateful for, but it does end up meaning that she does a lot of things herself and adds on to her to-do list, which doesn't give her any freedom, which is her number one value, and doesn't give her the space to stretch herself, as I just described.  And when we've worked through this really practically, we think it's unrealistic to just move from, you're doing all this yourself and doing more than you can manage to, "Well, just stop doing that".  I don't think anyone makes that sort of change overnight. So, we wondered if it's more helpful to do a reframe that goes something like, at the moment you're doing it yourself; you need to transition to doing something together.  And then the final transition is then, you don't do it.  So let's say I go to Helen and say, "Can you just sort this stuff out on Instagram for me.  Here's the picture, but can you just write the copy and sort that out".  So, Helen's default might be, "Yes, I'm going to take on more than I can manage and just do it myself". What Helen might start to do is say to me, "Okay, I know the reason that you're asking me to do that is because you don't know how to use some of the Instagram functionality", this is a true example!  In Helen's head, she will think, "It's faster for me to do this, because Sarah doesn't know that functionality", and she would be right. So, Helen might still end up doing it that next time, but she's upskilling me along the way, or maybe we're doing it together at the same time.  So Helen says, "Let's find 15 minutes together.  You can still post it, but I will walk you through it step-by-step, so we'll do that together".

Helen Tupper: Do you know, listening to you, this is the point about some of this stuff feeling uncomfortable, because it will, because it's not natural.  I will always think, "Oh, sure", (a) I want to help; and (b) I think I can do it faster.  So, it definitely takes that moment to just go, "But that isn't the right solution for the rest of my career, if I'm going to be doing everything for everyone, and that doesn't make anything better".

Sarah Ellis: No, but I think you pick and choose, right, you don't probably do this all the time and every time, because that will also probably be exhausting.  I'm putting myself in your shoes and I do see all the things that you do, and so that would be really hard for you to go from not doing that to doing that all of the time.  But I think we can be smart about picking which of the tasks or the people or the examples where I could start to do this, where it feels like it might be the most realistic, or it feels like it might be the most helpful for you, in terms of freeing up that space and stopping that people pleasing.

Helen Tupper: And I think repetition as well, where someone's asking you to do the same thing multiple times.  That, for me, would be a real trigger of, "I need to help this person to help themselves".  So (7) is where you change who you are to fit in with the other people around you, and Sarah said that she definitely recognised this in her career, and I've definitely done it as well, and it has a name, it's called "moulding or masking yourself".

Sarah Ellis: It sounds bad, doesn't it?!

Helen Tupper: It does, it is bad!  Actually, when you look into the psychology of this, it basically links to us not having a stable sense of self.  If we have a very stable, strong sense of self, we would attach ourselves to it.  But when we don't, we start to attach and adapt like a chameleon, like you said, ourselves to other people, and that's not great for us; we lose ourselves along the way, and we lose what really makes us authentic and happy at work. So, the thing that you want to invest in here, the idea for action, is really about understanding your values.  Now admittedly, this is not a quick thing. 

You don't just sort your values out in ten minutes, but I think it's something that has really big benefits on your career, not just for helping you to be authentic at work, but for your general happiness over your career.  It's something that we talk about in our book, The Squiggly Career, it's something that we have covered on a podcast, and we will link to that in the PodSheet, because we really believe that this is at the heart of having a career as individual as you are, as you understand your values. So, I would spend some time doing that, engage with lots of the resources that we've got to help you to understand your values, which is really just what makes you and what motivates and drives you.  And then the other thing that you can do here, so that you feel a bit more confident about yourself and your identity and your authenticity, is spend time with people who you trust, who have some of the same values to you, or at least you feel like they may be different, but you can be yourself with them.  Find that community, which may or may not be in your company, it may be a group of people that you're part of a network outside your company; but the fact that you can spend time with them, that you can be authentic, that there's a group of people that you don't have to mould and mask with, can give you the confidence to be yourself in other situations too. I did quite a lot of moulding and masking when I was at BP.  I was trying to be like the other people in that organisation, which was quite different to me.  But at the same time, I was part of the Marketing Academy community, that was when I first became part of that community, and it really helped me to feel confident in me.  And over time, I was able to bring a bit more of that into the company, and then just feel a bit more authentic, in that I didn't have to change myself completely.

Sarah Ellis: And (8) was about your sense of worth being wrapped up in other people's validation.  So, this was me describing myself as being a bit needy from time-to-time/week-to-week!  We know the consequences if we continue with that.  I think the big one is you're not building your own self-belief.  Your self-belief is relying on other people, people that you can't control.  And then you're creating this career development dependency. So, I don't want my sense of motivation and meaning to come from what other people think, I want it to come from what I think about myself, "Do I think I've done a good job?  Did I try as hard as I could?  Do I feel like I put everything into something?"  If that meant that someone doesn't find that useful, I don't want then my self-belief to be shattered as a result of that, because you're not going to get everything right all of the time, and also you're not going to please everyone all of the time.

Helen Tupper: So, we've both got a few ideas for action on this one, because Sarah and I approach this one slightly differently, because I feel quite protected around this one, I don't feel like this is my people pleasing --

Sarah Ellis: That's because you're good at this, that's why; you're not needy.

Helen Tupper: I know!  I don't think I am needy.  I think it's because I value freedom and I'm just very independent.  There's another little mantra that I think I hold and embrace whenever I feel like I'm tipping into somebody else's head a little bit too much, worrying a bit too much about what they think, or their opinion; and that is, "Less of you is more of me", which is a bit of a funny thing.  But I think, if I think less about what you're doing and what you're thinking, I can focus more on me and what I'm doing and what I'm thinking or what I want to achieve. So, I find that quite a useful little mental mantra, if I'm ever tipping towards worrying about what other people might think I'm doing, of my success, and how I'm spending my time.  Just, "Less of you is more than me", and that works to quickly get myself back on track.

Sarah Ellis: One of the things that has worked really well for me, as I've been trying to work on this one, and I think I'm far from having completed this work, is thinking more about pride.  One of the things that we included in You Coach You as just a small idea for action, was this idea of a pride postcard. I think rather than connecting pride to what other people say about you, or the feedback that other people give you, is asking yourself, "What am I most proud of this week?  What have I been really proud of this month?  When have I felt really proud of myself?" so making that pride about my own reflections on me and my effort, or I've tried something new, or I was nervous about something and then I feel proud that I definitely tried my hardest.  It might not have been the best thing that I've done, but I gave it my all, or I got over a fear of something, or perhaps I had a conversation where I disagreed with someone and I managed to stay present and felt like I contributed to that, so I was proud of myself. So for me, this idea of writing my own pride postcards feels like it's starting to take a bit more ownership of pride, rather than falling into that trap about worrying too much about what other people think about the work that we do.

Helen Tupper: So, rather than recap all of those eight different factors, and then those eight different ideas for action, we would suggest that you download the PodSheet, because it's all going to be there so that you can get clarity on what you could do differently.  And as I said at the start, the link for that will be in the description; or, you can just go to the podcast page on our website, which is amazingif.com.  And if you still can't find it, you can just email us.  That's just helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com, and we will send you the link.  There is nothing that should get in the way of stopping these people-pleasing issues holding you back.

Sarah Ellis: So, we hope you found that really useful.  As always, send us any feedback, or if you've got ideas for topics you'd like us to cover, we'd always love to hear them.  But that's everything for now, we really appreciate you listening, and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.