Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:06:20: The whens

00:12:19: The hows, and ideas for "yes" actions …

00:12:51: … 1: think about a "yes, if"

00:15:38: … 2: consider "yes, because"

00:18:39: Ideas for "no" actions

00:19:03: … 1: fast filter

00:23:10: … 2: offer an alternative

00:25:40: … 3: present your priorities with pride

00:28:35: Ideas for "don't know" actions

00:29:44: … 1: use your don't knows to ask for help

00:33:19: … 2: reframe from knowing to learning

00:34:42: … 3: move from don't know to knowns

00:40:02: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and share some ideas and tools that we just hope will help you to navigate this Squiggly Career that we all have with a bit more clarity and control.

Helen Tupper: And if you are a first time listener, welcome.  You might not know about some of the other resources that we create to go along with the episode.  So, every one of our episodes comes with a PodSheet; that's just a one-page summary to help you learn, reflect and take action.  We also have something called PodMail, which is an email that comes out every Tuesday.  It just puts all the links to all the things that we talk about in one place for you.  

And we have PodPlus which runs most weeks, not every week just because of other commitments we've got, but it happens every Thursday morning when we can do it.  It's 30 minutes and it is a brilliant community of like-minded learners who all sort of contribute to the conversation and bring their own ideas, and it's just a nice way to learn if you want to dive a bit deeper. All the links for that are on our website.  So, if you just go to amazingif.com, head to the podcast page and you will find everything there.

Sarah Ellis: This week, we're talking about saying yes, no and don't know.  So, why do we think this is important?  Why do we think this is a topic?  Well when you say, "Yes", you stretch your skills, discover new skills and often uncover potential. 

So, there's lots of reasons for saying yes to things.  When you say, "No", it helps you to make progress on priorities, so things that are most important to you, and it stops you I think from getting pulled in lots of different directions.  And when we say we "Don't know", it gives us time to think.  I also believe it builds our confidence that you don't need to know everything to be good at your job.  And I think we practise, when we say, "I don't know", being vulnerable, and actually often that builds trust between people. There's an interesting article I read recently where they said, "I would much rather have a manager who says, 'I don't know', than a manager who tries to fake it or feels under pressure", you know, to bluff or to make something up, which I think might feel counterintuitive sometimes.  Maybe as a manager you think, "Oh, I should know the answer to that, so I've got to say something".  But actually, people would prefer you to actually say, "Oh, I don't know", or, "I've not thought about that".  So, Helen, out of those three, saying yes, no, and don't know, I think they are all kind of connected but distinct skills, the ability to say those three different things, which one do you find easiest and which do you find hardest?

Helen Tupper: So, I'm having a little private giggle to myself, because Sarah has done the preparation for today's podcast off the back of a conversation we had last week, and she's already written some assumptions about the one that she thinks that I would find hardest to do!

Sarah Ellis: I was trying to be helpful!

Helen Tupper: I know, but it just made me laugh because like, yeah, she's totally right.  You know when someone just knows you really, really well!  So, I'll start with the one that I found hardest, because we both know it clearly, which is the saying no to things.  I kind of have this desire to do everything and it feels like a waste of time if I don't, and so I really struggle to say no.  I don't want to miss out on things or not be part of things, so yeah, I struggle. 

It's not my automatic reaction to say no and I find it quite hard to do. I think I'm all right.  I mean, I think the yes and the don't know, I'm quite good at both.  I definitely say yes to a lot of things, but I think I'm also okay with the saying that I don't know.  I think I don't have a confidence gremlin about admitting that I've got a knowledge gap.  It's just not something that kind of goes in my head.  I definitely see it when it affects other people, but that's not something I think gets in my way.  To be honest, my inability to say no is so big, it's so big that I think that's the thing for me to focus on!  What about you?

Sarah Ellis: Obviously, the opposite to you.

Helen Tupper: Obviously, as always!

Sarah Ellis: I think our regular listeners will know.  So, I find it hardest to say yes, particularly to things that scare me or feel like I would be doing something a bit different.  I think I am good at making excuses about why not, like why shouldn't I go and do that thing; why shouldn't I say yes?  And probably because you're good at the other one, because I've got lots of practice and I'm good at being clear on when to say no and prioritising, you know your skill in one area can sort of be unhelpful in another?  And I think we've just basically described that almost by being probably very good at one of these, then it sort of gets in your way maybe it being as good at the other.  So, that's definitely true for me.

A bit like you, I'm not worried about saying I don't know.  I think some of that might have also come from earlier in my career, I spent most of my time as a generalist.  So, I had lots of practice moving in different departments and working in very different sorts of teams. 

So, I was never the most expert person.  And almost by the time I then moved from being more of a generalist to a specialist, which is how I sort of see myself now, probably more than I ever have before, as I have a deeper level of knowledge about probably fewer things, even now I don't ever put pressure on myself to feel like, "Oh, well I should know everything about career development".  I'm sort of lucky that that's come at a point where you feel quite confident in yourself and your career.  So, I don't know whether there's a generalist/specialist link here to the confidence to say I don't know, but it certainly kind of struck a chord with me thinking about it that way.

Helen Tupper: I definitely have had times in my career when the don't know thing has probably been bigger.  I was just trying to think about certain companies that I worked in where the context was very expert, you know, like people had what I would call very hard professional skills.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's true.

Helen Tupper: So, at Capital One, people were statisticians and numbers was the hard, professional skill that people valued; or like at BP, a lot of those people were engineers who'd worked in the organisation for a long time.  So, perhaps when I was an outlier in an organisation that had a very hard skill set, I think maybe my don't know felt a bit more exposing.  So, I just don't want people to think, "Oh, no, I've got that one and those two don't".  I think Sarah and I have, I guess, the privilege now of working with each other, we've known each other for a very long time and we try to practise this regularly to create a safe space for the don't knows to happen.  But I don't think I've always worked in that environment.

Sarah Ellis: So, before we get onto the hows, let's just pause on the whens.  So, when might you want to say yes, no, or don't know?  So, when you want to increase your number of yesses, I think is when you are feeling stuck, if you're stalling, or maybe in particular if you're on a bit of an on-repeat pattern.  So, I read a really good quote last week that said, "Familiarity breeds complacency".

Helen Tupper: Oh, that quote is so brutal!

Sarah Ellis: Harsh but fair.  It is really brutal.  But you know that sense of, when was the last time I did something for the first time?  What am I learning now that's new to me?  We all do need, I think, at the right moments, doses of yes so that we can both do things differently, so we don't get stuck, but also we don't want to limit our learning to where we are today.  So, not only can it sort of move us out of that comfort or the comfort zone, if you want to think about it in that way.  I do think you then put yourself in new situations where suddenly you might see that you've got skills and strengths that you just didn't appreciate.  That's more about exploring your potential, I think.

Helen Tupper: Asking yourself that question, "Where does familiarity lead to complacency in my career?" I think it creates some really interesting insights for people.  I might reflect on it afterwards.

Sarah Ellis: And then when to say no.  I suspect this one, everyone will recognise, because even if like me, you're okay with saying no, we all feel overwhelmed.  We all have those moments of being busy, just being busy.  I often reflect on, I know this is happening to me when I get to the end of a week and I feel depleted but I can't tell you what I've done, and I'm always like, that doesn't feel like a good place to be.  And also, thinking about it more positively, if you've got something that's really important that you want to progress, so you've got a goal or an objective, perhaps you're working on a project or a milestone that you really need to make happen, sort of really spotting those moments where saying no becomes even more important.  So, if saying yes is even more important, perhaps if you do want to really kind of stretch yourself or you're feeling stuck, saying no is even more important.  If you're like, "I really want to make this thing happen, it's really important to me, it's important to my career, important to my organisation", that's the moment where like, if there's any moment where you need to start practising saying no, I think it's then.

Helen Tupper: My signals for saying no are when I start saying sorry too much, "I'm sorry, I can't make it, I'm sorry", like just when I'm on sorry overload, I'm like, "That's because you're not being able to do everything you want to".  Or when I've got too many pieces of paper that I'm carrying around with me, because most of my pieces of paper are about lists.  I look at my desk now and I can see a lot of pieces of paper that I've got.  There's a to-do list and some ideas, there's just a lot of lists.  And I know that if I just have to keep carrying an ever-growing stack of paper around with me, it's because I'm not completing things that I've started, because I haven't said no to enough.  So, they're my little very practical, tangible signals.

Sarah Ellis: You're just adding.  It feels like it's very additive.  And when to say you don't know.  So, I think there is a very basic one here, which I don't know whether everyone will agree with actually, because I'm sure you could find some evidence that sometimes it is okay maybe to fake it until you make it.  But when you don't know, I do think it is better to say you don't know than to try and make something up. 

I think sometimes people might feel pressure to have to come up with an answer, but I think that's a really hard thing to do.  The other thing I was thinking about this, I was reflecting on when else would you say you don't know, in those moments when you have a niggle that something isn't right or something isn't quite clicking and you don't know why yet?  We're all very used to that, "Don't share problems, share solutions".  But sometimes I think you are just in that moment thinking, "I don't know why this is not working, but I do feel like it isn't working".  And I do think it is okay sometimes to signal that to say, "I'm feeling a bit uncertain about this.  I'm not sure yet what to do or exactly what the answer is, but I do want to explore it a bit more, I do want to think about it a bit more". Often, these are moments where you want to think a bit more deeply or you want to kind of pause, even if it's just momentarily, instead of giving yourself that chance to think about something a bit more deeply.

Helen Tupper: Having said I am good at this, I'm now challenging myself.  I was thinking about, I did a podcast the other week.  We were on -- I was on somebody else's podcast and they asked me --

Sarah Ellis: Outrageous!  There are other podcasts?

Helen Tupper: Oh, did I not tell you I'm auditioning with somebody else for the Wiggly Careers podcast?

Sarah Ellis: Oh my God, imagine if that happened!

Helen Tupper: No, no.

Sarah Ellis: Some people actually call it Wiggly Careers.  I'm like, I mean can you not?

Helen Tupper: Wiggly Careers; someone once said to me, Wobbly Jobs, and I was like, let's just stick with Squiggly, everyone!  No, but I was on this podcast and they were asking me a question.  The first one I was like, "I'm not sure".  The questions that they were asking me, I'm not sure that I had brilliant answers for, and I think probably what I should have said, I don't know, I probably should have just called it in the conversation and said, "Oh, actually, I don't think I've got enough expertise in that area to give your listeners a really good answer to that, so shall we move on?"  I should have said that, but do you know what, I didn't. 

I think I tried to answer it in the flow of the conversation, and I've sort of reflected on it afterwards and thought, "I don't think what I said was that clear or compelling or useful, so then why say it?" But what I didn't say, and what we're advocating for, is I should have said some of the things that we're going to come on to in the ideas for action in a minute.  But I think sometimes the pressure of a situation, that was a podcast conversation, but it could have been a presentation, you know, when someone asks you a question; sometimes that sort of pressure of a situation can sometimes make you just affect your ability to say the yesses, the nos and the don't knows.  So, I get it.  If anyone else is listening going, "Yes, that's what happens to me", I get it because it did happen to me as well the other week.

Sarah Ellis: So, we're not going to go into the how.  We're going to start with yes, then we're going to talk about no, then we're going to talk about don't know.  And in the spirit of practising, we are going to lead on the one that we are not as good at.  So, I'm going to talk about some ideas for action on saying yes, and then Helen can coach me through it.  If I miss anything, Helen's then going to talk about how she's going to say no more often --

Helen Tupper: That was directed!

Sarah Ellis: -- and I'm going to enjoy that moment.  And then together, we will hopefully help with how to say I don't know.  So, idea for action one on yes is think about a "yes, if".  So, this helps you to give a thoughtful yes that sets you up for success.  And so, sometimes I think we don't say yes because we aren't sure how we're going to make it happen or we get nervous about the practical realities of the yes.  It reminds me of when Helen was speaking to Cal Newport the other week for the Ask the Expert episode, he talks about essentially every yes does have an administrative burden that comes with it; there's always a lot to do with every time you say yes.  And so often, I think sometimes I should say yes to things but I do get nervous about that.  I'll think, "Oh, I'm just not sure". 

And then my default actually is to say no, even though maybe I could have learned a lot from saying yes. So, "yes, if" gets you to just think through just the kind of implications of the yes to increase your confidence.  So, we've got three yes ifs for you just to bring this to life. So, it might be yes, if there's someone else involved, so this is kind of a people yes.  So, "Yeah, I'd really like to get involved in that event, if I could work alongside with someone from the team or a different team".  So, it's a yes if there's someone else, which I think is a smart thing to do.  The second yes is a time one, or a time and place one, so yes if there's a very clear timescale to something.  So, "Really happy to volunteer for that project, if we can review how it's working at the end of August".  So, you're saying yes if the timescale is very clear. Then the final "yes, if" is something else stops.  So, this is being very clear on priorities, which I think probably relates to both this and when we talk about nos.  But this one might sound like, "Yeah, I'd be really happy to get involved in that piece of work, if I can pause project B in the meantime, we can come back to it".  So, I think it is a thoughtful yes, it's a thought-through yes, and I just like this idea of going people, place, priorities.  It's kind of a "yes if", and that just helps you to then I think practically feel good about saying the yes, because I think you feel like you're like, "I'm saying yes in the right way for the right reasons, and also with the right things around me".  I find that reassuring.

Helen Tupper: I like it.  I actually think even as somebody who likes saying yes, often my yes comes from a place of sort of energy and enthusiasm but not always effectiveness.  So, I think your "yes, if", I think it helps to make, yeah, just a more kind of effective way of opting into things.  I might adapt it too.

Sarah Ellis: And then the second one is the one that really counts for me, because I'm actually okay at that first one.  But the second one, the reason I don't say yes would be because I would be scared essentially.  I would think, and Helen and I were talking about this last week, about how we sometimes don't do things just because we think, "I just can't be bothered".  And actually, it's a little bit of laziness and it's a little bit of, "It would be easier not to".  So here, we are trying to say yes when you probably want to say no.  So I was like, "Right, okay, what helps me here?" because sometimes I do do this.  And this is where rather than saying "yes, if", idea for action two is "yes, because". So here, our job to do is to talk ourselves in to saying yes. 

So, if you are like me and you're naturally quite critical, I can come up with all the reasons to say, "No, no thanks", basically, rather than, "Yes, because, it's like, "No, no thanks for all of these very good reasons".  The thing that I do is I start the other way around.  So, I sort of start from the opposites, from the upsides, "Do I want to go to that event?"  I mean the answer to that, regardless of what it is, is pretty much always, "No, thanks." 

But if I think about it differently, if I'm like, "Yes, because I get to meet people I've not met before, or some new weak ties or some distant ties, and actually it's a good way of bringing people together"; "Yes, because actually I'm interested in the content of what's going to be talked about at that event, so there's kind of a learning motivation for me"; and maybe it's just because I can't remember the last time I did something for the first time. So suddenly, I go, "Three yesses that are nudging me towards kind of the right answer".  And I did it recently actually, where we had an award that we were entering, and again, really easy to say no because you're just like, "I can't make the space in the week, not got loads of energy for it".  Whereas, I then did the "yes, because", and I thought, "Yes to entering that award, because you always learn from the process of entering for awards", I knew that from sort of past experience; "Yes, because if you do win, it's a chance to share Squiggly with more people", so it's really aligned to a goal that we've got; and, "Yes, because it's an opportunity to build new relationships".  And I was like, it's sort of that tipping point, and that gets me over the line of saying yes.  And you don't have to do it all the time, but if you never say yes, you do miss out.  So, there you go, that works for me.

Helen Tupper: I like them, and I can hear them.  Just knowing you, I feel like they're very realistic yesses.  Back to the, "I just say yes with energy", I feel like actually there's the thought-through, the thoughtful, and the considered nature of that is, it's very sort of adding you into the yes, which I like. So, let's move on to the nos, for anybody who already finds yesses very easy and might need to say no a little bit more.  We have covered this as a topic actually on a podcast, but it was a while back.  It was back in episode 106, and we're well into episode 400 now. 

So, we've got some new ideas about how to say no.  But if you're really struggling, maybe listen back to that one too.  So, three ideas.  Idea number one is a fast filter.  So, this gives you a few questions to ask yourself so that you can be, I guess, clear and confident about what you might need to say no to. So, the first bit is assessing the situation that you're in. 

So, one, "Do I understand the ask?"  So, what is it, when does it need to be done by, why does it need to be done?  Number two, "Do I believe we should do this?"  So, not just someone's wanting me to do it, but do I personally believe this is the right thing to do?  And that links to question number three, "Do I believe I am the right person to do it?"  Is it the right thing?  Am I the right person?  And then number four, which is the one that I never really ask myself, "Do I have time to make it happen?"  I kind of believe in magic time, which doesn't actually exist.  And I think if I actually said, "Do I have time to make this happen?" I would be a bit more realistic about what I say yes and need to say no to.  So, those first four questions give you a fast filter on whether this is something in the yes or the no category. Even if it does fall into the no category, because maybe you're not the right person or maybe you've not got the time to make it happen, it doesn't always have to be an automatic no. 

It could be a, "Not now", because you've got something else on; it could be a, "Not unless", like "there's a team of people that can work with me, or I do it with someone who's an expert in the areas I'm not"; or it might be a not ever, actually, it might be a, "No, I don't ever think this should be the right thing".  I think sometimes the not ever, whether you phrase it like that or not, up to you, but I do sometimes think you've got to be clear when it's a no, particularly if in your head it's a not ever, I think it is better to be clear about that. So, I sometimes have fudged my nos and all that happens, like, so a fudged no, I'll be like, "Oh, sorry, a bit busy at the moment, but thanks for the ask".  And all that happens is the ask comes back around in three months and then you're like, "No, I'm still a bit busy".  And it would have been so much better to say, "Oh, I don't think I'm the right person to do this, but really wish you best of luck with it.  I think it's a great project, but not one I can be involved in".  That is me saying not ever in a Helen kind of way and it's much better than doing the fudgy no.

Sarah Ellis: I agree and I think that's where I have definitely fallen into that trap in the past, because you think it's kinder maybe to say, "Oh, you know --" but I think often, I'm so close to being able to say no, and then I'm, "But feel free to get back in touch".  And you're just like, "No, don't get back in touch, not with exactly the same mask, because it's a no now and it is going to be a no again", and it's just having that confidence, isn't it, to know that it is okay to say no.  And I suppose I've got more used to receiving those from other people, which I think has helped me to get better at them, particularly thinking about the podcast.  

We ask people to come on the podcast who say no, or sometimes just don't even reply. So, almost you just get a tiny bit more resilient, but also I think I have noticed and observed how people say no in a way that I really respect.  And I think that's useful to remember, that actually you can say no and still be kind.  And if someone is a decent person, they will respect that no.  Everybody gets that people have to make choices in how they spend their time.  And I think we also sometimes, I think maybe your ego can get in the way a bit here, because you sometimes think, if someone's asked you something, that they've only asked you; and most of the time, people have not only asked you, or you're not the only person.  So, someone's world is not going to fall down if you can't do that thing.  And I think that's also sometimes quite useful to remember.  I think I've had examples of that, where then I realise I've said no to something and then they've probably asked like 15 other people and you're like, "Oh, yeah, it's absolutely fine, it's absolutely fine to say no".

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I agree.  You almost feel so guilty that you get a bit like, "Oh, but if I say no, then what are they going to do?"  And they're like, "Probably ask someone else"!

Sarah Ellis: Be fine.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, be fine.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, be absolutely fine.

Helen Tupper: Get over yourself!

Sarah Ellis: Get someone better!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, all that!  Idea for action two is to offer an alternative, and I think this is what I have been doing more of late.  So, I do struggle with the flat out no, it doesn't quite feel like me, but then I do want to create clarity that I can't be involved or do something by a certain date or whatever.  So, I find the offering an alternative quite a useful thing.  So, for example, "No, I can't do that meeting but I can send you a voice note with my thoughts".  I've been doing that a lot.  

I get a lot of asks for conversations on LinkedIn.  A lot of people message me, and some people introduce me to other people with the ask, "Oh, Helen, here's Mick, thought you could talk to him about this".  And I'm like, "No, I haven't, I actually haven't got the time to do this at the moment", and then I feel really awkward. So, what I say instead is, "No, I can't make the meeting, but I can send you a voice note".  And I find that a very quick way that I can help that then doesn't kind of have the same impact in what I'm trying to do on other days.  Or, "No, I can't work on that project, but I can send you some insights and links that might help whoever picks it up".  I can often do that very quickly.  Or, "No, I can't get that done by the end of the week, but I can send you something I've created before that you could use instead.  So, those are -- I find myself doing that quite a lot.  And as long as my alternative doesn't take a lot of time, I find that that works for me.  You know, if I'm just replacing their ask with something that takes a bit more time, that's not really a win in me saying no.  But I have been trying to do those sorts of alternatives as quick as I can.

Sarah Ellis: Well, what's nice about those examples is you're either saving time or you're being flexible with your time.  So, I was just thinking actually, when you described that first one, I have said yes to a couple of meetings that I probably, in hindsight, I look at them and think, "Well, I should have said no", but I said yes because, like to your point, I wanted to be helpful.  And I do always think but people really helped us and you're always trying to do the same.  

But if I had just said, "Well, rather than a meeting, if you send me your questions, I will respond with a voice note".  That works way better for me in terms of, we're not going to collaborate calendars and find diary time.  Also, it means that if they're really serious, they will send you questions because they have got them.  And if they're not, then if they're just sort of entering into the conversation because they might as well, again that's probably not going to be that useful for you or for them. Again, even though I would say I'm naturally okay at saying no, already I can spot, I'm like, "Oh, but I could be even better".  And it's now making me think I really regret saying yes to those things!

Helen Tupper: Dammit!  And the third idea for action with the nos, and again I'm finding this one easy at the moment, so I feel like I am working on this, is to present your priorities but with pride.  So, they're not like this, I don't know, this thing that has no emotion attached to them.  So, for example I have had to say no to a few things at the moment because Sarah and I are working on writing our third book, which I don't think we're supposed to be talking about yet, but I'm going to.

Sarah Ellis: But it's coming.

Helen Tupper: But it's coming and we're working on it.  And so, a couple of people have asked me to be involved in certain things and I've had to say no because we're protecting so much time to write the book.  And I'm really proud that we're writing that and I'm really excited about what we're creating, and when I say, "I'm really sorry I can't make that meeting, or get involved in that project at the moment, because we're writing our book and we want to make progress on it and we're working towards this date, and it's something that we're really looking forward to", I just get people going, "Oh, I completely get it, I understand". 

And I think it's because I don't just say, "No, I'm writing a book", but I put a bit of emotion into it as well, like I am really proud of what we're creating.  And that, I think, helps people to understand why I'm saying no. Or another one that I've mentioned before is, I'm part of this community called EY's Winning Women.  And even though the community continues after the year that you're sort of appointed one of these Winning Women, you still want to get the most out of it during the year.  And so, I've said no to some things to say, "I'm part of a programme, there's these dates that are part of it this year that I really want to attend because it's part of my year's commitments to do that", and suddenly people have more understanding for it, and I'm proud of being part of that community.  So, I think know what your priorities are, present them with pride when there's a situation where you need to say no, would be my idea for action there.

Sarah Ellis: Also, what's useful about that I think probably particularly for you is, when people know you well, they will be used to you as a "can do, make it happen, say it yes" person.  So, if you suddenly just started going, "Well, no, I can't come to that, or I'm struggling to make time for that", in a sort of colder way, it doesn't feel like you.  And I think sometimes the reason people struggle with these is, okay, but I've still got to do it in my way and with my words. 

And I think as you're describing those, and I think as I was describing the yesses, we've both sort of come up with our own formula that actually probably feels very personal.  It's like, well, this is how you described it.  I came up with yesses in quite a kind of thoughtful and considered and reflective way, because that's my personality. 

You've worked out, well, how can you say no, but with energy, and in a way that reflects your emotions and kind of still feels good for you? So, everybody listening, you'll have your own way.  But I think that is worth working out, you know, where's your starting point; and then what does this look like for you, so that you still achieve the outcome, the saying no, saying don't know, saying yes, but without losing yourself, because that doesn't feel good, no one likes that sense of, "I'm having to almost pretend to be someone I'm not to be able to do this well". So, last, saying don't know, I reckon this might be a confidence gremlin for quite a lot of people listening, because I hear people in our workshops share they don't like being put on the spot.  So, this is not about generally not knowing, because of course there's always loads of stuff that we all don't know, this is saying you don't know very specifically.  So, you could be having a one-to-one with your manager, you might be in a team meeting, or you might even just be getting a message on Teams or on Slack, and your response is you're thinking, "Well, I don't know, but how do I say I don't know?" 

So, this is difficult, and I think it does take confidence and self-belief.  And as Helen described at the start, your context will make a difference.  If you're in a high-trust team, I think saying, "I don't know", is much, much easier than if you're in a low-trust team where you think, "Well, I'm not sure what's going to happen if I say I don't know".  So, just a kind of slight caveat of, depending on your environment, you probably will want to adapt your approach a little bit and be sensitive to that situation.  Don't put yourself in such a vulnerable position that you're going to make yourself feel worse.

So, idea for action one is, use your don't knows to ask for help.  And I think often the vulnerability of saying you don't know is an opportunity for support, sounding boards, to get a steer from other people, or just say, "I need some help", or to get a perspective.  So, this might sound a bit like, "I'm not sure who to involve in this project.  Who would you recommend I talk to so I can learn more?"  So, you're saying, "I don't know", "I don't know who to involve in this project, but can you help me with who that might be?"  Or you might say, "At the moment, I'm not clear what success looks like for this piece of work.  What have you seen work well before?"  So again, the one thing I was thinking when I was writing these is I don't want to reverse the spotlight, so, "I'm put on the spot; what I'm now going to do is put you on the spot", because that feels a bit harsh!  So, you are trying to do this in a sort of encouraging way.

Helen Tupper: Deflect your don't knows!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I was like, "Okay, we just need to be a bit careful about that".  You can just say, "I don't know the answer to that question, but I've got a few thoughts that I'd appreciate your perspective on".  That's something I would definitely say.  So, you can still have ideas and you can still have thoughts, but I think it is okay to first acknowledge that you don't know the answer to a question.  I would always caution, I think, ignoring the question and just saying something different, or answering a different question, because I think people can see through that and I think that you can get caught out yourself if you try to do that.

Helen Tupper: I feel that might be advice that some politicians miss, you know when they get a question, they sort of go through it?  We'll leave politics to one side; that's probably not our podcast.

Sarah Ellis: And if somebody says something where you just think, you know if it throws you and you just think, "I don't know because I've never had that thought before", and this has definitely happened to me, just saying, "Oh, I hadn't considered that, that sounds really helpful.  How could you imagine that working?  Or have you seen that working somewhere else?"  Again, you are just going, "I hadn't considered that". 

And if somebody has asked you a question around something where you just go, well, that's new knowledge to you, that's just a new thought you couldn't have had, they're probably talking about it because they have seen it work well, or they've seen it in their teams.  So, essentially, you just need a little bit more context. I think here, what you are trying to do is show a mixture of curiosity, so you're kind of going, "Well, tell me more", essentially, and a bit of vulnerability about going, "Okay, well I don't know, so can you help me move from don't know to know?  Can you support me as part of that process?"  And I reckon the majority of people are flattered by this, because you're essentially asking for their advice.  That's all we're doing in this moment is going, "Oh, Helen, I hadn't even thought of it that way.  How do you think I might work?  "And Helen's going, "Okay, so she's prepared to admit she'd not thought of it, and she's shown that she's genuinely interested in what I think and what I've got to say".  I think all the people you want to work with would respond well to that.  I think because you've done the upfront acknowledgement, which I think is important, you've not just gone straight to, "Well, you tell me", because that could feel a bit overly aggressive.

Sarah Ellis: I think Sarah's don't know questions are a really, really good reason to download the PodSheet, because I think they're really helpful.  I know so many people get scared of asking for help, but you haven't mentioned help in any of those questions and it would lead to the same outcome for people.  So, definitely, if you haven't managed to write them down, don't worry because it's in the PodSheet. Idea for action number two, when you want to say you don't know but it feels hard maybe to do, is to reframe your language from knowing to learning.  So, this would sound like, let's say Sarah's asking me a question and I think, "I want to say I don't know, but that feels too hard to do".  Instead, a learning-based response would sound more like, "Okay, that's really interesting. 

Well, it's an area that I'm learning more about at the moment, so let me come back to you".  Or, "Okay, yeah, it is an area where I've kind of got a bit more to learn, but it's top of my priority", so just not even getting that word "don't know".  If that feels too difficult, just get the word "no" out of your mind and reframe it to learning, and it's often something that just sounds more active, you can communicate it in a very proactive way, "I'm actively learning about this at the moment, it's top of my learning list", or whatever that might sound like for you, but you might have more confidence and connection to the word "learning" than you do the word "knowing". I often feel like if I use the word knowing, well I can never know enough, and I'm never an expert enough in an area, and that might get in my way.  But just saying, "Well, I'm learning about it, it's top of my learning list", that just feels easier for me to do.  And if it's easier for you to do, it's going to feel, you know in those situations where you get asked questions, it hopefully will just make you just a bit more confident about saying it.

Sarah Ellis: And then idea for action three is moving from don't know to knowns out loud.  Now, I think this is probably an idea that works better in a one-to-one setting rather than in really big groups, because otherwise it could probably be a bit of a free-for-all and perhaps quite difficult to manage.  But I do think it is okay, this could be a peer-to-peer conversation, this could be a conversation with somebody in a different team who perhaps has done something similar, this could be a conversation with your manager.  And you're having that conversation and they've asked you a question where you just think, "Yeah, I just don't, I just hadn't thought about that".  Or what would often run through my head is, "I just don't know where I'd start with it".

 You're sort of going, "Oh, I don't even know what moving from don't know to know looks likes.  And I think you can smartly involve people in that process of moving from don't know to knowns. So, what you could do at that point is say to somebody, "I've not done this before", and I've worked for somebody who used to say that to me quite frequently, and I really liked it.  I never thought, "Oh, he must not know what he's doing", I always just thought, "Oh, okay, that's interesting, he's not done it before".  And then he did this with me.  He'd be like, "Oh, I've not done this before.  Shall we figure out together how we get started?" and then I'd be really flattered.  I'd be like, "Yes, let's figure out together how we get started".  And so essentially, then we were jointly co-creating moving from don't know to at least some knowns. 

But it was more about the process, like how are we going to move to get into those knowns?  So, who should we go to talk to; what do we know based on what we've done before; what do we both just think; what are our initial either assumptions, or what are we imagining it might look like? I think the reason this ends up being so compelling is, sometimes other people don't know as much as you imagine.  So, sometimes you can be like, "Oh, okay, it's not like everybody else has got the full picture or got all of this already figured out".  But also, doing some of your moving from don't know to knowns out loud, sort of sharing that process, I think gets you a lot of buy-in because you're bringing someone with you.  It's very classic "involve, don't solve".  And actually, this idea really came from working with Helen, who does the majority of her thinking out loud.  And I spent quite a lot of time with Helen last week.  And you might think, "Surely you always spend a lot of time with Helen?" but we actually don't.

Helen Tupper: She actively avoids me most of the time.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah!  We did talk about meeting up again, and you were like, "Was that too frequent for you?"  You actually said those words to me!  And I was like, "Oh, gosh!"

Helen Tupper: It is empathy.

Sarah Ellis: But I often think this is something I see you do.  I think this is sometimes how you get from, you'll be like, "Hmm, don't know", and then you just start to have this kind of conversation.  And I feel it's not really about building better, we often talk about how do we build better together, it's just building something.  Because at the moment you're, this is about often going from nothing, we just don't know, to something, and I feel like you never leave a conversation without having got to at least something.  Because usually by the end of that conversation, you stop listening to me and you're doing the actions, you're like right, "Yeah, right, I'm going to go and talk to that person, I'm going to write this down", and you have gone from not knowing to knowing in a very short space of time, but actually in a way that creates a lot of clarity, a lot of confidence, and some momentum. So, we were working on some things from scratch last week where there was a lot that you and I didn't know, and we were like, "Well, we don't know if this will work". 

And your thing is going, "Well, how would we work out if it would work?  What would we need to do?" and you start getting into that process.  So, I think this probably feels like a slightly different approach to don't knows, but you are still saying it and then you're involving someone.  I'd almost want to think about, and I think the reason this works well with us is obviously we know each other and work together well, who could be that don't-know partner for you?  You know, someone who quite enjoys that process of sort of having a play and just creating, and doesn't feel daunted by don't know.  Like, I don't think you're daunted by don't know and I think that really helps. I think sometimes I would be more daunted than you would be in that moment. 

I'd be like, "Oh, there's so much we don't know".  You would just be like, "But what do we need to do?" because you're such a doer.  You're like, "It doesn't matter that we don't know.  What matters is that we start doing", and it's a very kind of learning-by-doing approach.

Helen Tupper: I think generally with this kind of yes, no and don't know, as well as having like a don't-know partner, I think having a yes-no opposite is quite useful, you know in your career community, because we just stuck together as these two opposites in quite a helpful way.  But I think if you could look for an opposite, somebody who's naturally good at the one that you're not, I think you can learn an awful lot from each other.  I learn a lot from how Sarah says no, and how she says no in meetings, "Well, no, I'm not sure we should do that" and then I'll be like, "Oh, interesting, she's brave enough to do that when I probably wouldn't".  Or she's even just stopped to think that we should say no, because she's done that assessment in her head and I've just rushed into yes. 

So, either observing or actually very intentionally partnering in a career development relationship with somebody who is your opposite I think is a really effective way to learn about this as well.

Sarah Ellis: So, all the insights from today's episode are in the PodSheet, or if you want something even shorter, check out the PodNotes, where we tend to just have, say, the top three ideas for action or the things that we think are most useful to share at a glance.  But we hope this has been useful for saying yes, no, don't know. 

Let us know how you get on, and if you ever have any ideas for podcast topics that you'd like us to talk about, you can email us at any time.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  But that's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.