Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:37: Books behind this week's episode

00:02:42: What Sarah learnt from her book…

00:02:47: … 1: attachment theory explained

00:07:54: … 2: windows of tolerance

00:11:34: … 3: "I" statements

00:13:47: … 4: relationship strengths

00:20:56: What Helen learnt from her book…

00:21:25: … 1: outside-inside impact

00:22:25: … 2: biases affecting relationships

00:25:32: … 3: it's bad to bottle it up

00:28:46: The target market for the books

00:31:54: Standout quotes from the books 00:35:49: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  In the next few episodes, we're doing something a little bit different.  We're focusing on some of the factors outside of work that we think will help you to succeed in work, and the topics that we're covering are health, sleep, money and today we're going to be talking about relationships. 

We're absolutely not the experts in any of these areas, and so for every episode we've both chosen a different book to both read; and in our conversations together, we'll be talking about what we've learnt, how it's helped us, and hopefully how it might help you too. And so, today is all about relationships and, Helen, what book have you chosen and why did that book spring to mind for you?

Helen Tupper: Well, I chose a brand new book that is out in September, so it's not even out yet, but you can pre-order it.

Sarah Ellis: Oh! Helen Tupper: I know, I got sent a special -- it's got a sticker on the front that says --

Sarah Ellis: You're just showing off!

Helen Tupper: I know, I am, "Advanced Reader's Copy".  But the book is called Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone (Even Difficult People), by Amy Gallo.

Sarah Ellis: It's like you, because you're like, "Sarah's so difficult.  I just really need this in my life"!

Helen Tupper: Do you know what, I debated this being my choice quite a bit actually, because I was thinking, isn't what we're trying to focus on with this series the stuff that you can focus on outside of work to help you improve inside of work?  So I was thinking, isn't it more about the relationships you invest in outside of work, and how that helps you inside of work?  But actually, as we will come on to, even though it is a book which is primarily about work relationships, there are a lot of broader insights that I think help you think better about all the relationships you build, not just the ones inside of work as well.

Sarah Ellis: Interesting.  Amy's work's always great.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  I'm an Amy fan, she's been on our podcast.  She's our go-to guru on conflict, I would say, not that all relationships need to have conflict for you to work on them, but that is, I think, Amy's real area of expertise.  What about you; what did you read?

Sarah Ellis: I have gone quite far away, far away from work, and I've read a book called The Attachment Theory Workbook: Powerful Tools to Promote Understanding, Increase Stability, and Build Lasting Relationships, by Annie Chen, and I know nothing about attachment theory.

Helen Tupper: I like attachment theory.

Sarah Ellis: When I mentioned it to you, and you were like, "Oh, yeah, it's all the fashion", I was like --

Helen Tupper: It is all the rage!

Sarah Ellis: -- I'm just obviously really unfashionable.  So, I was intrigued, and to be honest just did a little bit of research and thought, "I do quite like the idea of it being workbook focused", that felt very consistent with Squiggly and us trying to be practical and useful.  So I thought I'd give it a go and see how I get on.

Helen Tupper: I love it.  Well, shall we start with how you got on then; three things you've learnt about attachment theory from your workbook?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, well I do now know what it is, so that was the first thing!

Helen Tupper: Share it with us.

Sarah Ellis: I would say, what Annie Chen does is a brilliant job of explaining and describing attachment theory in a way that I found really easy to understand, as someone who knew nothing about it, and definitely that I think everybody could apply what she talks about.  So, she essentially, I think, takes what she does in her work as a therapist, and makes it available for everyone.  So, we talk about making careers better for everyone; I feel like she's taken attachment theory and gone, "How do I make this accessible for all of us?"

She explains that attachment theory is, "The stress that people do or don't experience when you're dependent on others in relationships", and she's really clear, which I like.  She's not trying to do a horoscope, she's not trying to explain our personality, and she's also really importantly not trying to pigeonhole people into fixed patterns of behaviour.  It's essentially trying to understand the natural progression of your attachments that you build as a very young child, like a baby, and as you develop your social and emotional bonds that you have with your primary carer. So, when attachment theory research was first done, for most people that would have been their mum, not for everyone, but for most people, because that's who the primary caregiver was traditionally.  But obviously over time, that has changed; not for everybody, that wouldn't always be your primary caregiver.  And your attachment basically goes into three categories. 

Again, we have to be a bit careful about categorising people; but you either have secure attachments, insecure anxious, or insecure avoidant, and you want one all of the time, but you perhaps have a primary style, and it helps you to understand how you relate to other people. In particular, where I think this is interesting, when you start to take this work and think, "How might this help me in my job and in my career?" is, attachment theory doesn't drive all relationships all of the time, but it is the most likely to drive your close relationships, so the relationship maybe you have with your manager; certainly if you've got a co-founder, which we'll come onto; work best friends, it would definitely drive your relationships with work best friends; very close collaborators. 

So, I think just understanding almost your attachment style, what does that look like for you, when might that change, would definitely help you to build better relationships. I have to say, some of it was personally quite confronting at times, which we won't talk about later today, because essentially you are putting yourself through relationship therapy by reading the book, and I started off pretty smug.  I've got a good score in terms of secure attachments, because I was very lucky in terms of how I grew up.  So, I've got a good social and emotional bond in terms of, I was very well looked after and very well loved.  So, my security score, and there are some scores you do in the book, but then there's loads of exercises, is really high; and I've also got low insecurity, which essentially means I'm really happy being by myself, probably no surprise there, but I am at my best when I've got loving, supporting close relationships, you know when you're nodding on, without trying to make it a horoscope, you are nodding a bit.  And my security is generally very high until, and there is a bit of an until --

Helen Tupper: I'm loving this!

Sarah Ellis: -- until there are disagreements and conflicts, so this might be where our two books and worlds collide, and then things fall apart a little bit.  And the more you read, you know when you start to -- they describe the avoidance style, which I basically become insecure avoidant.  They're like, "Sometimes these people don't really like hugging" and I was like, "That's definitely me", "But they really enjoy reading, because when they're reading they can disappear into other worlds and avoid any kind of conflict", and I was like, "Right!"  Honestly, the more I read about that avoidance style, the more I was like, "Okay, I've got a few relationship challenges I need to sort out! But the good news is, first of all, it is all very sortable, although I think obviously everybody starts from a slightly different place. 

And I do really like the exercises in the book.  Some will feel more for you than others, but she doesn't just describe and then leave you thinking, "What do I do with that?" which I always find really frustrating.  She describes and then says, "How much does this feel like you; or, maybe does it sometimes feel like you?" and then she starts to talk about then, "Okay, what's the 'so what'; what can we then do about it?" So, the first thing I learnt was, I now know a bit more about attachment theory.  And then, do you want to know the so whats?

Helen Tupper: Yes, I would love to know the so whats.

Sarah Ellis: So, two things that I've picked out, because there's actually a lot, and I do think the book is quite personal to the person reading it, because everybody's relationship attachment styles will be different, so I tried to pick on two things that I thought would work for everybody listening.  The first one is another new idea that I've never come across before, I don't know if you know it, is this idea of, "We all have a window of tolerance".  Have you come across windows of tolerance?

Helen Tupper: No, I don't, but I feel like there's a nice visual that might come into this.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  So, I really liked it, because again I could visually imagine it.  Regardless of our attachment style, we all have a window of tolerance, and it describes, "The ideal zone of physiological activation that means that we can function effectively".  Basically, when you're in your window, you can have a difficult conversation, you can process information, you can respond and you can relate to people; you're in a good place. When you go out of your window of tolerance, you become quite distressed and stressed, and that's where, I suppose for different people, this would show up in different ways.  So, some people might get aggressive, some people might get really angry, you might shut down, you might get really upset, and that's because you've gone too far out of your window of --

Helen Tupper: A little bit fight or flight?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think you've gone outside of that window of tolerance.  So, some people will verbalise it and will be able to say almost, "This is starting to feel uncomfortable for me [or] this is too hard", or for some people, they're distress cues are very obvious.  You know there are physical distress cues, like people crossing their arms.  Or I suppose if you're crying, it's a very obvious cue.  Unless you're me, in which case my distress cues are invisible, which are really unhelpful if you're trying to work with me, because it would be quite hard to see them, which you may or may not see that in me.

Helen Tupper: I mean, I can think of some really big situations in life where that's probably been the response, Sarah!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah!  And so, what you've got to try and do -- but I find this really interesting.  So she says, "You don't give up on these people", so please don't give up on me!  You shouldn't give up on them, it's just more difficult.  But the more, I suppose, if you know this about yourself, firstly you can share that; so essentially, the further out of my window of tolerance I go, the less likely I am to talk about it.  So, there's also something about me, like what can I do?  But there's also things that you could notice. 

So, too many difficult conversations at once, or close together, where there are high levels of conflict, would take me out of my window of tolerance. It's easier to talk about your window of tolerance when you're not outside of it, which makes sense, I think.  If you're outside of it already, then that's very difficult for people, because they're either really upset or they're emotional, or whatever it might be, or you've shut down, if you're me!  Whereas, the best time to talk about what it looks like to go beyond it is when you're feeling comfortable and secure and stable.  So, having these kinds of open conversations helps you to get a sense for what it might look like.  And then basically, anyone who's in a close relationship with anyone else, you stand a better chance of between you signalling, "This is too hard for me" or why this might be difficult. I just think that's a really -- I found that quite a useful, visual way of describing it.  Also, I like the idea of maybe, the best time to talk about this is not outside of the window, when you're in the window.

Helen Tupper: I like that, because it makes me think you always try and personalise these things, don't you, and I was thinking what's outside of my window, if we were going to have a challenging conversation, if I'm tired or if I'm trying to do something else; then that's likely to trigger for me much more negative responses to a conversation.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  And the way that you can do this, and interestingly I had a go at one for you, as well as one for me, which hopefully that relates to what you just said, is if you can use "I" statements to share something about yourself, rather than trying to blame someone else, or the other person, because that's when you can get into almost unhelpful friction. So, the one I actually wrote for you was, I was thinking I think you're out of your window of tolerance, and I think you might say something like, "I'm too overwhelmed to be able to usefully have this conversation right now", I think you might have said that to me before!

Helen Tupper: I don't know if I'd verbalise it -- I think I'd say, "I've got too much to do to talk about this right now", which would probably be how I'd verbalise it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  But the point is, you're not blaming me for having the conversation at the wrong time, but you are trying to signal, "I'm probably outside of my window of tolerance".  Or, you can also use "I" statements to share something that's important to you to the other person in that relationship.  So, I was trying to think about where we might be different, and one could be for me, and I'm still practising these "I" statements, so I hope I'm getting them right, but they're actually not that easy to frame in the right way, would be, "I appreciate agendas for our catch-ups, because it helps me to prepare and be organised".

Again, that's probably telling you something about what I value and what's important to me, but it's not then saying, "Why haven't you done an agenda, Helen?" and it's probably helping you to realise, that matters to me, a bit of organisation and structure matters to me in our relationship; you can understand each other from that. So, I'm still getting my head around "I" statements, because there's a little, not test, but there's a, "Which of these are 'I' statements?" in the book, and I didn't get all of them right; it didn't click first time for me, so I think I'm still getting my head around them.

Helen Tupper: It made it clear to hear though, I get what you've just said, and sometimes I'd be like, "Do we need an agenda; isn't it too formal?"  I don't really think that, I think Sarah needs control, and that's why I've got an agenda!  No, but to hear you articulate it in that way is actually, it just provides quite a lot of clarity.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  So, I think learning about those "I" statements, I found helpful.  Then my last thing, which I was getting more and more practical as I was going through, is an exercise on relationship strengths.  Now, one of the brilliant things about this book, and we will put the link to this in the show notes, is you can get a free workbook that is 28 pages long, with loads of these exercises in; we'll share that link.  And this exercise is the last two pages of that workbook, pages 27 and 28, and this is about relationship strengths. So, pick someone you're in a really close relationship with, and I would say the majority of this book is way more focused on personal relationships and friendships, but obviously I just picked you.

Helen Tupper: Thanks.

Sarah Ellis: And when you know each other's strengths in a close relationship, it provides a buffer from stress.  But also it gives you loads more room to grow and go further towards your goals.  Now, lots of the examples in the book are goals, I don't know, maybe you're building a house, you're doing a project to build a house with your partner; or, you're doing more of life stuff.  I was just like, "Oh, if Helen and I could provide a buffer from stress, then we can just grow Amazing If and Squiggly Careers", and so obviously that's where my head went first. So, I sent you, did you manage to see, a list of potential strengths across our relationship.  So, I picked three for you, and then I thought you could tell me three for me, and just see how that helps us.  Do you want to have a go?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I did, and I sent you them over WhatsApp, but you might not have seen them, so let's give this a big reveal.

Sarah Ellis: No, I haven't.

Helen Tupper: So, who goes first?

Sarah Ellis: Well, I'll tell you yours!

Helen Tupper: I'll tell you yours; that's a good start, a great start!

Sarah Ellis: And I'm sure there must be a longer list than this, but I still found this useful as a framework.  So, there were actually loads that I could have picked for you, but the three I picked for you were: willingness to put in hard work and effort; perseverance through rough times; and, ability to challenge the other in a positive way.  Does that feel true for you when you're thinking about your intent versus your impact; do you think, "Yeah, that is what I bring to a relationship, or our relationship maybe, more specifically?"

Helen Tupper: Yes, actually, but I don't think I ever would have articulated it quite like that.  I probably would have put, "I like hard work", but it's quite nice to hear it being appreciated, you know, to hear you say it back, I think, some of those things you maybe think, "That's just what I do", or, "Is that something that's valued or valuable?" but yeah, it's good to hear.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, so that's what she says, she says, "That's why it's so important to say it out loud", because essentially it's really acknowledging and appreciating, in a very out-loud way, what someone brings to a very important relationship.  So, you see, you're proof that it works. Helen Tupper: Would you like yours?

Sarah Ellis: Now can I have mine, please, yes absolutely.

Helen Tupper: It's a bit needy!

Sarah Ellis: Yes, I am very needy, yes, I would please like mine!

Helen Tupper: Okay, so I put: empathy, that was one that I picked out, I think you're an amazing empathiser, you never try and solve, you just sit with me sometimes when I'm struggling with something, which is brilliant; I put the inspiration one, so being a source of inspiration, I always feel inspired to do more, to do better; and then, commitment, I just feel this immense amount of commitment comes from you and what you do like, "It will get done and we will do it and we will find a way", comes through.  So, those were my three.  How does that reflect with your own self-awareness?

Sarah Ellis: Interesting.  So, I only got one for myself of those when I self-scored, which is why I had to scrub them out when I sent them to you, because I didn't want you to see what I'd done!  So I had put empathy, maybe because we'd talked about that before, I was like, "I can see how that mirrors"; I put humour.

Helen Tupper: I definitely wouldn't have put that, which sounds really harsh!  I don't mean because you're not funny, but not --

Sarah Ellis: What do you mean, I'm absolutely hilarious!  I can't believe you didn't pick it, it's outrageous!

Helen Tupper: It's just not the thing.

Sarah Ellis: Okay.  I was like, "Maybe I bring a sense of humour even when things are hard".  And then, do you know what, I actually struggled, I couldn't think of anything else.  I was reading them being -- I'd got how many crosses for you?  Seven, and then I was like, maybe willingness to put in hard work, but probably not as much as Helen.

Helen Tupper: No, I actually nearly had that one, but then I was like, "Commitment felt more", because you don't work hard for the sake of working hard, you are committed to an outcome, so that was why I chose that one over it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and actually that one I recognised.  The source of inspiration, I perhaps find a bit more surprising.

Helen Tupper: But you're like the ultimate idea-generator.

Sarah Ellis: I don't know.  Yeah, maybe because it's the word "inspiration", I don't know if I'm that inspiring; I'm quite good at coming up with ideas.  But this is why this is so useful.  So, I think anyone you have, I think this would be really useful to do with your manager, for example.  And to be honest, it's not what it's intended for, I don't think; I think you're meant to do it with your life partner.  But I was thinking about this for my sisters and stuff, who I have a really close relationship with. 

I've got two sisters who I'm very lucky to love a lot, and also get on with brilliantly.  I was like, "They bring different strengths to my sister relationship, and they're both very different". So, I just think, going through that exercise and then almost saying it out loud, and then maybe even giving some examples, her point is it helps you to really appreciate difference where there is difference; and also, what you have in common.  There's no right or wrong.  You're not looking for a big, "You do something massively differently", but you have the conversation that we've just had, which even someone who we know each other very well and have known each other for a long time, there were still some surprises along the way and some things that we couldn't see for ourselves, just by taking a bit of time to think about our respective relationship strengths like, "What do you bring to a relationship?"

Helen Tupper: It's really interesting actually, I've sort of done this today with my husband without really meaning too.  So, I'm in the middle of buying a new property, and today we got through the house brochure, and we're trying to move quite fast.  So I looked at the brochure and I was, "Yeah, yeah, all looks fine, just need to change that picture around", and I sent to my husband a WhatsApp --

Sarah Ellis: And you told me as well!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I told Sarah, because you're also my life partner!  So I was like, "Just need to change this picture around, job done".  Anyway, then I checked my email an hour later and my husband had sent this email to the estate agents with about six very detailed things that needed a change on, but really important things like, "The boundary's incorrect and there's a typo on page 3", stuff that I completely just had not spotted and I was like, "Yeah, that's quite important". 

I messaged him to say, "Oh, wow, your attention to detail is amazing, that is a complete super-strength", because that's always my go-to language; it would be a super-strength. I think the bigger point behind what you've said is, yes, you could do this a formal thing and you could go through page, what was it, page 27 of the workbook, and do it; but I think there's a bigger thing, which is relationships outside of work are really important to your life, and I will come and talk on that in a second.  But taking time to say what is the strength of somebody and what you get from that relationship, I think, is a really important thing to do that often gets overlooked, because you often make assumptions that, "Sarah's always there for me", or, "That friend is someone I've known for a long time", so you probably don't take a moment to just go, "Do you know what, I really appreciate this about you in our relationship", and I think that's probably the bigger thing behind what you've maybe just shared.

Sarah Ellis: So, help me now, Helen, help me with all my challenges around conflict?

Helen Tupper: Oh my gosh, well I've got so many.  I can't start with this, because it will take too long, but I wrote down, I started with, "Three things that I learnt from the book".  The first one I start was, "Nine principles for getting along with anyone", and I thought, "You can't have number one that says, 'Nine principles'!"  So, I'm not going to say the nine principles for getting along with everybody, but they are in the book and they are quite useful.  So then I was like, "All right, work a bit harder, Helen, try and pick out three specific things that you've learnt. So, number one was the point that I just alluded to, about outside-inside impact, and this is what I'm trying to get to here.  In the book it talks about, "The quality of your relationships outside of work impacts your relationship resilience inside of work", so let me explain further.  In a study of people who experience what they call "incivility in the workplace", ie people not being great to work with, the people who had positive relationships outside of work were more likely to thrive inside of work, and they were better able to respond to difficult relationships with colleagues. Basically, if you've got good relationships outside of work, it helps you to respond more positively when you've got difficult relationships inside of work.  So, that's why it's so important to think about the quality of your relationships outside of work and the connection between the two.  So, I thought that was quite an interesting, perhaps overlooked point at times.

Point number two, "Biases affect our relationships".  So we all have biases and they have a significant impact on the quality of relationships we develop.  There are two particular biases that are mentioned in the book.  The first is an "affinity bias", which means that we are more likely to gravitate towards people with similar appearances, beliefs and backgrounds; so, that's your lovely old echo chamber, and actually that might hold you back from being curious and learning from other people.  So, I think it's worth thinking about the people that you spend time with outside of work, how much of an affinity bias have you got going on, and could you benefit from a broader community of people? The second one is called "confirmation bias".  T

his is the one that rang bells for me.  So, confirmation bias is where we look for evidence that reinforces what we already think about a person.  So, you know when you might have written someone off?  They're a bit of a challenging person, I'll be polite, but you know you just write people off, either in your family, or maybe just in your friendship group, and you stop given them the benefit of the doubt, you stop assuming that there's any kind of positive intent.  You just say they are a difficult person, or they are always a victim, or they come across as negative, and you make a full-stop after that statement, and you look for lots of evidence that goes, "Oh, that's being negative again [or] that's them being deliberately difficult". I thought it was quite interesting to think about, "Are you letting confirmation bias affect the quality of your relationships?  Have you written someone off because you're looking for stuff to reinforce what you think you know about them?"  I thought it was interesting.

Sarah Ellis: Very interesting, and I think I do that sometimes.  Because I am critical of myself and other people, definitely, and I also remember those things, at my worst I can be a tiny bit stubborn, it has been known.  I think then sometimes, you know if somebody made a mistake or got something wrong, I remember that. 

Then, almost you have the confirmation bias that reinforces that, and then you miss the good stuff along the way.  Or, perhaps you don't even give somebody the opportunity to prove that they can do something different, or in a different way. I think that is very fixed, isn't it, and also really unfair, and it takes away from people's ability, like learning agility, to say, "Well, just because this happened in one way once, it doesn't mean it will happen again".  Plus, I see that people already, like we've said before, people already do a really good job of being hard on themselves.  So then, the last thing they need is then you going, "Oh, yeah, that person just isn't a…", and it's like, well okay, they might not be the best at that thing, or they might not really enjoy that thing, but that doesn't mean that they can't do it. I think both of those, I can see how both of those biases get in our way.

Helen Tupper: So you kind of go, the dots that I'm collecting are, affinity bias and confirmation bias affect the quality of our relationships; and if we have a poor quality of relationships outside of work, it makes us less resilient with our relationships inside of work.  So, these were all the dots that I was connecting. The last one, and this is the one that I was like, "Uh-oh": it's bad to bottle it up.  I think I'm a good bottler.  It says here, "Suppressing our emotions rarely helps, and they are likely to show up in unexpected places.  Psychologists call this", this is a horrible term, "emotional leakage"; I hate that idea! 

But as examples of emotional leaks: sarcasm, so probably a bit too sharp sarcasm, where you're like, "I'm a bit annoyed with you, but I'm going to let it out as a light bit of sarcasm"; stress, that's one way that, because you haven't actually talked about something that's bothering you, it becomes quite a stressful situation; or, an outburst, it just gets too much and you're, "Oh, for goodness' sake!" because actually you just bottle it up. It's like that, I don't know if you've seen it on YouTube, that Mentos and Coke experiment; have you seen this?

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah.

Helen Tupper: I think it's like that, but with your emotions.  And it also says, "You risk taking your negative feelings out on an innocent bystander", which I thought was interesting.  But the other little build on this is that, "People can sense the tension".  So, the research shows that if your blood pressure rises as a result of suppressed emotion, so does that of the people around you.  So, let's say I'm bottling it up, but actually I'm getting more and more tense, so I'm like that bottle of Coke that's fizzing and fizzing, then actually the people around me start to fizz too.  So, it has this sort of osmosis type of impact.  So, it's not just me that gets affected by my bottling it up, it's actually the people around me. It says, "What do you do about this?"  Yes, you could just talk about it, but that might feel too difficult for lots of people to just do.  It says that one of the other solutions that might come before talking about it, is just to write it down, almost let a bit of the emotion out, but in a way that might feel a bit more private, maybe perhaps a bit less confronting, but can give you back a bit more control of how you're feeling, so you're less likely to leak the emotion in an uncontrolled way.

Sarah Ellis: It's interesting/worrying, because I don't associate you as somebody who does bottle up what you're thinking.  So either that's just new news to me, because I would always think, "I'm way worse at that than Helen, I bottle up loads more stuff.  You're much more likely to call it quickly, you talk about fixing friction fast".  So, do you think this is different in work and in personal relationships for you?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: Okay!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I think I have a personal mechanism which is, if you bottle it up for long enough, then it disappears over time.  But according to emotional leakage, I'm just due an outburst!

Sarah Ellis: You're just going to fizz over!

Helen Tupper: I'm due some kind of outburst!

Sarah Ellis: Oh, crikey, look forward to that if you're in Helen's family or friendship circle!  What happens to me if I'm in both circles, I'm like a friend and -- maybe that bit, can you just keep me out of the friend bit when you fizz over?

Helen Tupper: I've got another analogy.  You know Pop-up Pirates?  I'm coming out with all of them today!

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah, I have that game.

Helen Tupper: Who knows when that pirate is going to pop?

Sarah Ellis: Let's hope I'm not there for that bit.

Helen Tupper: Well, let's hope you are, to help, with your empathy, remember, those super-strengths you bring to our relationship.

Sarah Ellis: No, sorry, they're just for work.

Helen Tupper: They're just limited, limited availability?  Thanks for that!  Oh, dear.  So, who is your book for then?  You've obviously gained a lot of insight from it, but if you were recommending it to somebody else, who would you suggest read it?

Sarah Ellis: Anybody who enjoys psychology would just find it interesting.  I think it's a really good introduction to attachment theory.  It definitely made me want to read more.  It made me want to think, "I wonder if anyone's done any work on how you then apply this within work?" to start getting more specific to our world. 

I think if you were interested in therapy, so I don't know a lot about therapy and haven't had therapy before, albeit lots of friends and family and people I know have, and have all benefited from it massively. So, I think maybe if you were thinking about having therapy about your relationships and you wanted a bit of a feel for it, I don't know because I'm not talking from experience, I felt like it gave me an introduction into what it might be like to have therapy about a relationship. 

Or maybe if you were thinking, "I'm not sure I can afford it or invest in it", maybe the book is a good place to start to understand maybe some of the benefits, because I've not really talked about it today, because I didn't think it would be as helpful for the podcast, but there are quite a lot of case studies in the book, very short ones, that just say, "This person and this person were fighting about money.  They were in a really good relationship, but one of them had a more secure style, one of them had more of an avoidance style".  And it also talks about what do you do if you've got two avoiders; what do you do if you've got a secure and an insecure person?

So, you can sort of go through and make it very personal to your own situation.  And if you were just interested in improving your personal relationships, I do feel like it's probably a book that is more relevant for personal relationships or friendships, or if you have got a very close work relationship.  Actually, because of our relationship, I found it very useful for work. 

I was thinking to when I was in more corporate world, I think it's a bit harder to make that direct leap, I would say.

Helen Tupper: Well, I think then mine is a really good pair, because you've had to take a book that's about personal relationships, and then work harder to make it relevant to professional relationships; and I think my book about Getting Along, from Amy Gallo, is much more about professional relationships, that I have taken some things from to apply more to personal relationships.  So, I actually think they're quite a good pair, if you want to think about the relationships in your life as broadly as possible. I would say that my book recommendation is a good one if you're rethinking or repairing a relationship at work. 

I think a lot of where Amy comes from is the eight different archetypes, like you have the victim, the insecure manager, and it's almost like, how can you behave in a way that gets the best out of that relationship.  So, I think if you've got a bit of a problem, I think this could be your go-to guide.  But I also think it is the right read if you are prepared to put some effort in.  So, there's a lot here that is, "What can you do; how can you ask questions; how can you think about your contribution to that relationship?"  It isn't, "Oh, they're an insecure manager, it's their issue". So, if you're prepared to put the work in and you've got a relationship you might want to rethink or repair, it is a brilliant book for your bookshelf.

Sarah Ellis: Which actually links really nicely to my favourite couple of sentences from the book.  Do you want me to go first, because I think it will actually be a really nice build from what you've just said?  She reinforces these sentences a few times, she keeps coming back to this sentiment, so I was thinking I'd just summarise with this.  She says, "Remember, all of these behaviours were learned, but none of them are your fault.  But the consequences of these behaviours are your business". 

So, I really liked that, "consequence of these behaviours are your business". She goes on to say, "Being open and curious is the best way to learn new information about yourself and fuel your motivation to change behaviours that don't serve you".  I did like that.  I felt there was a sentiment throughout that book of going, self-awareness and understanding yourself is useful.  Don't blame yourself, don't blame other people either, it's not particularly helpful; but if you want to do something different, you've got to change those behaviours that are getting in your way.  I liked that, I felt like that was a good sentiment and useful and practical, for something that is taking quite a psychological theory of the relationships you have as a baby with your primary caregiver -- when you get into that stuff, it gets quite deep, and you can understand why this impacts therapy -- into something that I think could be helpful for everyone.

Helen Tupper: Sort of attachment theory accountability, "You're not to blame for what you believe, but you are for how it impacts other people", I like it a lot.  My quote, see what you think to this, "Even one negative relationship can cast a shadow over your life.  But if you look, you can often find like-minded people, who are interested in positive interactions.  Rather than allowing toxic relationships to dominate your experience, determine what you need to be effective and happy, and build a coalition of people who are committed to similar goals and values". I quite like that idea around just taking ownership for this. 

You might have a negative person in your life, and now we know that that can actually affect your relationships in work as well; but actually, you can build this coalition or community of people who you do find a connection to, who help you to feel positive and better about different things.  So, I think that whole, "Don't feel like a victim of your circumstance", you can often create a community if you are willing to, and that community can benefit you in lots of different ways; I quite like that statement.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think that's really helpful, especially when we do have, we've said before, I think we maybe say in You Coach You, that a difficult relationship can dominate your day.  I have had that experience a few times in my career, where someone that, for whatever reason, felt quite toxic, did cast that shadow that you've just described. 

And I think related back to some of the things that you've talked about, where I'd got good relationships outside of work, that definitely helped me, where I could build that coalition and community, where yes, that person I might have found really difficult, but it didn't determine all of how I felt every day, all of the time, because I think that just feels so draining, and I think you can lose lots of confidence, and it can really get in your way. I think, depending on who that person is, from a work perspective, I think that can be something where there is a moment where you think, "I need to make a change [or] I need to move away", because if that person is your manager, for example, that is incredibly difficult.  But I really like Amy's advice there to go -- you know, it's the "control your controllables", isn't it?  You focus on what you can do here; don't spend too much time trying to change someone else.

Helen Tupper: Well, that was my fourth point that I didn't say, "Be in control of you.  You can't try and change the people around you.  Focus on the things that you have power on".  So for example, if you're getting snappy, go to sleep.  If you need to keep your commitments, for example, build your boundaries, that stuff that you're in control of and has a big difference in terms of your relationships.

So, that is the last in our special series that we have done over summer to help you think about some skills that you can invest in outside of work to help you improve inside of work.  So, over the last month, as Sarah started us out with, we have covered health, we have covered sleep, we've covered money, we've covered relationships.  And we've done these episodes in a slightly different way, by taking a book each that we hadn't really talked about beforehand, and sharing live with each other our insights, and thinking about the impact of them.

We would love your feedback, because it isn't something we've done before, and if you've enjoyed it and it's been helpful for you in your development, it's definitely something that we can do again, but we will only know whether we should do that if you get in touch with us.  So, please do send us your feedback.  If you have enjoyed this, if you found it useful, if you think there's anything that we could do differently if we do do it again, just email us, we're helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com, and we would really love to hear from you, because it's been a bit of experiment, and we only know if experiments have worked if you give us your insights.

Sarah Ellis: So, that's everything for this week.  As always, if you have two minutes to rate, review, subscribe or recommend our podcast, that's how we can scale and share Squiggly.  Also, we really appreciate it.  It's always nice to know that people are listening and we're not just talking to each other, albeit we do really enjoy doing that, so we'd probably do it anyway!  But thank you all so much and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.