Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction 00:01:03: Quiet quitting 00:07:31: Part 1: relationship reflections… 00:08:01: … describing your relationship 00:10:57: … understanding your priorities 00:14:44: Part 2: what to do with your relationship reflections… 00:15:28: … create what you care about 00:18:10: The four things that we care about from our work… 00:19:01: … 1: skills - The 4 E Learning Plan 00:22:24: … 2: flexibility/freedom - ideas and impact table 00:26:28: … 3: progression - curiosity coffees and Squiggly swaps 00:28:28: … 4: meaning and purpose - internal communities 00:30:43: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen. Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah. Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly show to help you navigate the ups and downs in your Squiggly Career and share lots of practical ideas for action to leave you with a little bit more confidence, clarity and control.  Today, we're going to be talking about how to redefine your relationship with work; or perhaps, if you feel like you never really got started with a definition, it's just more actively defining it in the first place. We've been prompted to cover this by quite a lot of stuff in the news, a bit of noise perhaps on this topic of "quiet quitting", I don't know if any of you have seen it, but it's originated on TikTok and I've seen it on multiple newsletters, it's been all over my LinkedIn, and I've read about it in The Guardian, The Metro, Refinery29, the list goes on; so, there's quite a lot of noise about it.  So we thought we'd start with, what is this quiet quitting thing all about; and then, how does it connect into a potential need to redefine, or define, your relationship with work. So, when Sarah first sent me the article on quiet quitting, I thought it meant, "See you later, I'm leaving this job".  I thought, rather than just formally handing your notice in, I thought it meant actually quitting and I was like, "Oh, is that a bit irresponsible; this is a funny trend, you just leaving?"  But it doesn't actually mean outright quitting your job, it's really the idea of going above and beyond the day job.  So, all that extra work you do in the evening, when you're checking emails, you take things home, you're still thinking about work, even when you've stopped being paid to think about work; it's about really the idea of quietly quitting doing that stuff any longer, no longer being, "I've got to hustle constantly to get ahead".  It's like, "My day is done, my workday is done, and therefore my work is done". It might look like, in a practical term, saying no to projects that you think aren't part of your job description, or that you think, "Do you know what, I don't actually want to do that, so I'm not going to do that"; it might look like sticking pretty rigidly to the hours that you're contracted to work; or not answering emails outside of hours, even though you might be getting them, you think, "I'm just not going to answer that, because I'm not being paid to answer that".  So, it could be that significant, or it could just be a bit of a mindset shift that people might not see, but you've made this commitment to yourself to be less mentally and emotionally invested in your job.  So, that's what this premise of quiet quitting is all about.  Sarah, what's your take on this premise? Sarah Ellis: Well, I've got very mixed emotions about this idea of quiet quitting and in some ways, the reason that we've not just done a podcast episode on this topic is I think it's ended up being inevitably like things have to be, when they have to be on TikTok for ten seconds or whatever, a bit binary and a bit black and white; because I think there are some good insights and some good awareness, I think, around quiet quitting, which is things like taking control of our careers and the role of work in our lives, and recognising that when your boundaries become too blurred, it's probably not good for you, and it's not good for your work either. But I think when you also read about quiet quitting, there is a lot of emphasis on almost people opting out of caring about their work at all.  I can't believe that is ever a good thing for individuals.  So, there's the organisational angle of, "I don't think organisations should be creating an environment where people want to quietly quit", because it feels like this sense of, "I'm not motivated and I'm not interested or engaged in the work that I'm doing".  So, my worry is, if you chose to really take a back seat and step away from caring about the work that you do, you're still at work for a lot of time in a week.  I would have thought, in terms of your mental health and your motivation, that might feel okay for a week or two, but then I think quite quickly, that wouldn't feel good for you either. But do I think some of the potential actions you might take, that have been put under this umbrella of quiet quitting, around putting boundaries in place, having an active understanding of the role that you want work to play in the rest of your world right now, I think there are some good things; I think some of those good things are getting lost, in this sense of anti-hustle.  I understand that as well.  I don't think people want to work this 24/7 culture anymore, and almost if that expectation is there, people are figuring out or going, "No, I'm going to say no to that". You see lots of people as well talking about they can't get people back in the office, and almost individuals are saying, "Well, I'm opting out of the office.  Even if you want me to come in, I'm not going to, unless you give me a really good reason to, or unless that feels very purposeful".  I think there are some useful things in this idea of quiet quitting.  I think a lot of that usefulness is getting lost along the way, which is why today, we really wanted to talk about this idea of your psychological relationship with work, as something more active, something that you can take control of, because we all have two almost contracts with work.  We have the formal contracts that we sign and never read again, unless you're very different to me; and then, I think you have your informal contract, which is more your psychological contract, the unwritten rules and expectations of your relationship with the work that you do. I think one of the things we've observed is, some of those unwritten rules are definitely changing with Squiggly Careers, so things like from an expectation that our work gives us job security, to we want our work to be upskilling us, or potentially reskilling us, to support me to be employable as an individual, whether that's in this organisation or whether that's somewhere different, or in a different team; maybe moving away from the idea of, "The work that I do gives me lots of structure and stability" to, "Well actually, what's really important about my relationship with work is that it gives me freedom and flexibility", that in that ladderlike world, we expected regular promotions, whereas now we're looking for progression and possibilities. Maybe previously, all of the focus was on company performance and most of us now want more than that from our organisations and from the work that we do; we want to feel a sense of meaning and purpose.  So, the role of work in our lives, and I think this has been talked about a lot, has shifted quite significantly over the last 50 years, and maybe one of the things that we could all do is spend a bit more time understanding our own unique relationship with work, so that we're in a position where you're making a choice about that relationship, rather than leaving it to chance. I think that's the critical thing that we want to talk about today, is almost taking some time to think about, "What do I want that relationship with my work to look like?"  Helen and I, sometimes we record a podcast very quickly, but we've actually done a whole pre-podcast chat on this, where we tested some of the ideas for action and the reflections that we're going to talk to you about, to make sure this works and feels helpful.  So, that's what we're going to do today; we're going to do this in two parts.  Part one is some relationship reflections, like where are you in your relationship with work right now; and then part two is the "so what", what ideas for action, what might you go away and do differently as a result of some of these reflections. Helen Tupper: So, part one is this bit around relationship reflections.  When Sarah and I were talking about this, we couldn't help but move towards the idea of dating your job, like if you were dating your job, or if your job was a person, an actual relationship, because I think it makes it just a bit more tangible, and it makes these reflections just a bit more real and not hypothetical as well.  So, we've got a couple of questions, which we would suggest that you should think about, and we have answered them too in our pre-podcast chat, so we'll share some of those insights with you. So, reflection number one for you is to think about, if your work was a person, how would you like to describe that relationship that you have with them?  So, Sarah if your work was a person, how would you like to describe that relationship? Sarah Ellis: I wrote down things like, "Always changing and improving; varied; learning lots".  So for me, there was a lot about learning and probably newness.  What I realised when I started writing my work dating profile, is straightaway I could see lots of my values popping up in that profile.  I think yours read quite differently; I'm imagining these as newspaper data profiles now, very old-school, which is absolutely how no one dates anymore!  But I talked about mine and you were like, "Mine are quite different"! Helen Tupper: Mine are quite different.  So, my work dating profile, it would start with, "Hi, I'm Helen [big smiley face]!" and then it would say, "I'm looking for challenge, fun and new experiences".  I mean, I think that sounds like a great dating partner!  Anyway, what Sarah and I realised is that, with my dating profile being about looking for someone who is fun, challenging and offered me new experiences, and Sarah, who was looking for learning, variety and always improving, that we probably wouldn't date each other, which is very interesting, because we do have a work relationship, a big work relationship with each other. It just made us think a little bit about the idea of things being perfect on paper, but slightly more nuanced in reality.  So, whilst you can write down your perfect-on-paper work dating profile, you still do have to be curious, you don't want to limit yourself, because otherwise you might be in situations where you might rule out certain people or certain organisations, because you're being a bit too restrictive.  So, have this relationship in mind, but I think you could still be curious about how you could achieve those things. I think, Sarah, you were saying about some of the organisations you've worked for, you might not have done if you'd been too limiting about what that relationship could look like? Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  I think I worked in financial services for four years, and I found my brilliant work, kind of perfect profile, through that time, and that wasn't the first job that I did in Barclays; I worked for Barclays.  But I did find it over time.  I did a couple of roles there, I did a bit of squiggle and stay, and I definitely got to a point where the relationship I had with the work that I was doing was as good as it has ever been.  I had a real period of time where, you know when you feel like your relationship is just all of the good stuff that you want from it.  And of course there's still compromise along the way, but I felt there was an equal amount of give and gain, and I was getting all of those about learning and variety and improvement. I think what your relationship reflections help you to in part one is to help you understand your priorities.  That's what I found useful about this, is thinking about, "Well, in a perfect world, what are the things that I would prioritise?"  For me, in a relationship, I always want to be learning and I want to feel like there's always improving kind of progression.  I think moving forward is always important for me in a relationship with the work that I do. So, just knowing that, what's most important to you, then I think you can be very open and curious, to your point, about what that relationship looks like, and how you achieve that from the work that you do.  Because, I had those things in Barclays; I also had those things some of the time in Sainsbury's; I have those things now in the job that I do, where it's a very different kind of company, so I think we can get a really good relationship with our work in lots of different places, and doing lots of different types of job.  But I still think it is helpful to have a go -- we had quite a lot of fun, I think, doing this exercise and thinking about it in this way. Because I think it's quite a big question, just being specific about going, "If your work was a person, how do you want to describe that relationship?" I think it's a really good place to start before you then move onto the "so what". Helen Tupper: And I think again, getting as specific as possible, because it's not just, "I want a nice job that makes me happy", because who doesn't want that from work.  It's really, what is unique about the relationship that you are looking for, because I think that can help you just to be a bit more curious about how you can find it. Sarah Ellis: I do think as well, we didn't talk about this yesterday, this is helpful to understand across a team, because you know everybody wants different things from relationships, the things that are most important to you; because even you and I were saying, we would have quite different things that we would prioritise, and yet we love working together, and are also very good friends outside of work.  I think knowing this about the team that you work with and the team that you're part of, would also help you with empathy and collaboration, because me knowing that -- I think when we did yesterday, I think you must have said "fun" to me five times within about two minutes, "You just want to have fun"!  I do feel like knowing that helps me to understand. If I was managing Helen, that just helps me to understand who Helen is and what matters to her.  And then, when we're thinking about our relationships with work, let's say Helen is putting boundaries in place and she has a couple of things she does outside of work, that for her are all about that fun factor, for some other people they might be like, "I'm prepared to compromise on those [or] they're not that important"; but for Helen, I would know they're really important.  And I do know that.  There are certain things that Helen does -- Helen Tupper: Yeah, there are certain things that I won't move in my diary! Sarah Ellis: -- in her month, which I would look at and I would just intuitively know, and also from talking to Helen and having these kinds of conversations, they might look like nice-to-dos, but they're actually incredibly important for her.  Whereas, that exact same activity could be in my diary, and it might feel much more you're able to compromise on. So I think just actually knowing this for yourself, but even if you've got the kind of team where you can have quite a fun conversation about your work dating profile, play that blind-date game which we just described, I think that would help you to get to know each other well, and just understand how to work together and how everybody can have a positive relationship with their work. Helen Tupper: It's a subtle way as well, I think, of talking about values. Sarah Ellis: It is actually, yeah. Helen Tupper: Values are really important, but they're not always the easiest conversation to have, especially if people haven't really come across them before; it can seem like quite a deep place to start with your development.  So, maybe this is getting to some of the insights, but in a slightly more, dare I say, fun and engaging way!  You see, I'm seeding the fun in slowly! Okay, so onto part two then.  This is the so what; what do you do with your relationship reflections; how do you put this stuff into action?  Well, this is where you're absolutely getting into redefining your relationship with work.  One of the best ways to build a better relationship is to have reciprocity in that relationship.  So, if I want to build a better relationship with Sarah, I'm not going to just take, take from Sarah; I want to think about, "What can I give to Sarah to help build that relationship?"  And you want to take the same approach with your relationship with work.  When you have a balance between what it is you want to gain from your work, and then you think about what you can give to enable it, that's when the most effective and the strongest relationships will be built. So, the way that we have thought about this is to take the thing that you care about, so some of those ideas that will have come up in your work dating profiles, when we discussed that stuff, so take that stuff that you care about and think about what you could create in order to get that thing that you care about.  So, to bring this to life a little bit with some of our examples, one of the things that I obviously cared about was fun.  But one of the things that I can create is things to look forward to with the team; and actually, we have done this. We have created a looking-forward-to list for the team, which for the next six months, every month has something the team can look forward to, and that stuff's really different.  It's an event in January on Blue Monday, the most depressing day of the year, so we've got something to look forward to that's fun then.  It's also some posts; we send the team some fun posts, we do some Squiggly self-care kits that we send the team; there's some stuff we're doing on team meetings, for example.  There's just a whole range of things that the team can look forward to.  For me, that gives me what I care about, that gives me that sense of fun.  But I've also created hopefully a bit more of a sense of that for the team, that they can look forward to those things too. Sarah Ellis: So for me, I care about variety, and so what I create, again thinking about our team, is different ways of working, always challenging myself to make sure there's lots of variety in how we do things, how we get things done, whether that's a team meeting agenda, whether that's how we do one-to-ones, whether that's things like trialling walk-and-talks for our career development catchups.  And Helen and I were laughing as we were chatting about this beforehand.  Helen was saying, well if our team meeting agendas were down to her, I mean we'd be efficient, I've got no doubt about that, but she was like, we would just sit there and just power through everything. Helen Tupper: And then go for a drink; I did say, "And then go for a drink"! Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you did say that, because that's you doing the fun thing, you'd go for a drink.  Whereas, I think because I care about variety, I then create lots of variety for everybody.  So I'll go, "Okay, well let's do something here where maybe we're doing something that's more creative or high energy, or moving around.  Then let's do something about our metrics that matter.  And then let's move onto some borrowed brilliance", so there's all this variety and interest. What's quite interesting is, when you start to do this what you care about and what you create, I think it does get you into a real giving mindset.  And we know that givers gain more, because all the creating is often about starting with, I think, how you can help other people.  But then by helping other people, whether that's one person or your team or your organisation, or something outside your organisation, you then help yourself.  So, this kind of care/create, almost thinking about those two sides of the same coin, it does feel like a real win/win exercise to do. So, now we thought we would move on to some of the things that we know we pretty much all care about.  So, we feel that these are the equivalent, back to our dating profiles, of "good sense of humour", because who doesn't want a good sense of humour?  And so, we were thinking, "What are those things that we all care about in our relationship with work?" so things like skills, flexibility, progression and purpose. So, no one says, "No thanks, I don't want to upskill myself [or] I don't want flexibility.  Take those things away from me".  So we've tried to then do the, "What you care about, therefore what would you create?" that kind of reciprocity for each of those four, because we think these are relevant for all of us.  And then, hopefully you can also do your own personal care and create, a bit like Helen and I have done, depending on what were those relationship priorities for you. Helen Tupper: So for example, if you care about your relationship with work being one that gives you lots of skills and develops you and maybe that increases your employability, one of the things that you could create is a learning plan, and we have a specific framework that we use for learning plans with Amazing If, our organisation, which is the 4 E Learning Plan.  It is a framework built on 4 Es, which I will now talk through with you. The four Es stand for, the first one is Experience, so this is you thinking about the skill you want to develop, but almost how you can do it in your day job.  The most effective learning is the learning that you achieve by doing something, and so this is a really effective way you can learn and it's often free.  So think about, if this skill is something you want to learn, what could you differently in your day job to help you to do that? The second E is about Experiments.  I think this is the one that's quite fun.  This is one where you can try something out for the first time, and it doesn't really matter if you fail, because the objective is to learn.  You can think about, "What's a new way I could present?" for example or, "Who's a new department that I could work with?" but it's a really effective way of learning. The third E is Exposure, so this is you thinking, "If that's the thing I want to upskill myself in, who could I learn it from; who's already an expert in that area, or who's got a lot of experience in that particular skillset?"  That could be someone inside your organisation, or it could be you getting exposed to a community outside the business, for example. The fourth E is all about Education.  This bit might feel a bit more formal, so it could look like going on a course, so that might help you with the skill you want to develop.  But it could also look like something you could read or watch or listen to.  The main point really with the education bit is to get creative and curate your own curriculum from lots of different resources, and try not to make them all dependent on someone giving you budget, because that just creates a bit of a limit to your learning, which isn't always helpful. But if you can create your 4 E Learning Plan, what that means is you can talk to other people about it.  And if you care about upskilling and employability, you've made it a bit easier for other people to help you. Sarah Ellis: I always think what this really helps you with is being specific.  So, there's lots of talk at the moment about upskilling.  You see articles about upskilling and reskilling, and I always think, "Well, upskilling in what; what are those skills?"  That's very much the practical part of my brain that wants to always move from vague things, or things that feel a bit abstract, into something that is concrete.  And I think what this helps you to do is ask yourself the question, "What does this look like for me?"  And at the same time, "Are there some skills that my organisation are prioritising that are going to be important in terms of the future of the industry, or the area of the expertise that I've got?  And am I upskilling myself in those areas as well; or, how important are those areas to me?" We often talk about that coaching question, "What do I want to be true in 12 months' time that isn't true today?" and that's a really big zoom-out coaching question.  But I think you can apply that to upskilling, so almost like, "What improvement in my skills do I want to have made in 12 months' time that I don't have today?  What do I want to be different about my skillset?  What would I like to be able to say about my skills in 12 months' time that I couldn't say today?" just to start to really dive into, that 4 E Plan is so much easier when you've got those skills, when you're starting with those skills.  Whereas, if you're just going, "I want to be better", I think that feels like a really hard thing to do. So the second area that we all pretty much care about is flexibility, I think you could say /freedom, because we don't want flexibility to just be about the amount of hours you work, or maybe where you work.  Again, flexibility conversation tends to be dominated by working from home, or how often we're all spending time together in the office, because those are things that are on people's minds at the moment.  So, we want to think bigger than at.  But for most of us, we want to think about, "Have we got the flexibility and freedom in terms of the relationship with the work that we do?" Here, we think one of the things that you can create that's really helpful is an ideas and impact table, again because flexibility and freedom is very personal, and also it can feel like sometimes you're asking for something quite scary, so it can feel like quite a scary conversation to have.  Also, we want to avoid the idea of thinking it's got to work in only one way.  So here, we're trying to create options with this ideas and impact table. What you do here, create a really simple table with as many ideas as possible that you can come up with, in terms of how you could achieve the changes, if it's changes, in the flexibility and the freedom that you get; or maybe it's just tweaks around the edges.  So, you might have a really big change in mind, or you might have some small changes.  So, the purpose of the idea is that we'll generate those ideas, but then go do the work on the impact, so what impact would that have on your work; what impact would that have on other people, so you just show that you've thought this through, and also that you've thought beyond you. Often here, we're very focused on us and what we're hoping to achieve, and this just shows that you've started to do some of that connecting the dots that's really useful for the people that you're inevitably having conversations with about these kinds of changes.  So, to make it really realistic, perhaps you'd like to work a nine-day fortnight; or, perhaps you'd like to just change your working pattern generally.  So, a nine-day fortnight might be one idea about how you might do that, working slightly different hours every day might be another idea for how you might do that.  So, you might have three or four of those. Then, your impact could be things like, does that mean you need to work on one less project; does that mean you need to re-prioritise some of your projects; does that mean that you won't be available for the team one day every fortnight?  Then you can actually have a conversation about, does that feel like it might work; does that feel like something I could try out?  Or, maybe you'd like to move to be completely home-based.  Maybe during the last couple of years, you've worked that way, and that feels like something that's really important to you.  Maybe you want to make a big lifestyle change. Again, maybe some of the impacts are, "Well, we need to plan our team days in advance".  That's the impact you doing that would have on other people.  Maybe you need to consider new ways to informally connect with people, because you know that that's important, and it doesn't mean you necessarily can't do that at home, but you probably need to think about new ways; you're not going to just bump into somebody while you're making a cup of tea, you know that's not going to happen, so that might just be going, "With my team, we're going to do three ten-minute quick catch-up chats, which is just a 'How's everyone doing?' chat on a Monday, Wednesday and Friday for ten minutes at the start of the day". The idea with that is you've created something that I think helps you to have a useful conversation, and you've taken that mindset of involving rather than solving.  If I go to Helen with ideas and impact, I'm not saying, "This is the solution and I want to get started"; I'm saying, "I've invested in this, this matters to me, I care about this; but also, I'm really open to your extra ideas and also some impacts that I might have missed".  So, you're then trying to co-create together. Helen Tupper: Well, it's different, isn't it, between a conversation between you and me and something that feels much more like a confrontation.  You being like, "I need, I want, I expect" is probably going to feel like quite a difficult starting point for a discussion, whereas you're like, "These are some ideas, I've thought about some impacts.  I'd like to explore it with you"; I'm suddenly in, I'm in that conversation, I want to talk about it, it feels very different. So, the third one then that we thought lots of people would care about is progression, and we know because it's a big area that we work on in our business.  And, one of the things that you could create, if you care about your progression within an organisation, is something we've talked about before actually.  It's this idea of curiosity coffees.  In principle, this is about you having discussions about your development and your career possibilities with lots of different people.  But you could take this one step further by creating almost a system to support lots of people to have curiosity coffees. This system already exists, the hard work has been done for you.  If you use Slack, there is an app called Donut, which will basically help match you and the other people in your team with some other people in some other parts of the business, to go and have some curious coffee conversation, so it does the hard work of the matching for you.  On the Nesta, it talks about this a little bit as well.  We'll put the links to this in the PodSheet for you so you can find them, but there's a spreadsheet solution.  If you don't use Slack or don't use Donut, you can do it with a spreadsheet. I mean, you can create it yourself with two columns on a spreadsheet of Names1 and Names2, so that's the other way that you can do it as well!  But you can create that for people so that lots of people can discover different ways they could develop in the organisation through having these curiosity coffees, so it's not just about you, it's about other people too. An alternative idea could be to set up some Squiggly Career swaps.  Lots of people care about their progression; maybe what you could do is propose that, let's say over a month, half a day a week, you're going to do a Squiggly Career swap with someone else in the business.  You're going to move into operations, they're going to move into finance for half a day a week.  You're both going to see how you can stretch your skills, learn some more about that area of the business, come back to your roles in the normal way a month later, share what you've learnt, what you know, and also maybe think about some different things you might like to do with your development.  That kind of proposal could be really helpful for you to think a bit more broadly about your progression possibilities, and it would help someone else as well. Sarah Ellis: And then the final area that I think we all care about now from the work that we do, is that sense of meaning and purpose.  This doesn't have to mean we all feel like we're saving the world all day, every day, but I do think we all want to feel like we've got a sense of connection, and that the work that we do makes a difference, so that when you get to the end of your week, your time at work feels well spent and worth it. So, what can you create if you're looking for more purpose from your relationship with work?  Both Helen and I were talking about this, and we have both done this before, and that is create internal communities around what you care about.  So, rather than maybe starting with this massive zoomed-out idea of purpose, or maybe even your organisation's purpose, which can feel quite far away from your day-to-day, just ask yourself what are the things that you really care about.  Is it certain projects or certain types of work; it might be very connected to your day job, it might be slightly to the side. We've always cared about career development and for a long time, it wasn't anywhere near really our day jobs, but we found ways to create internal communities around career development.  And that internal community could be two people.  I was thinking back to one of the times when I was working at Sainsbury's, myself and one other person, who was in the same function as me, we spent probably less than 10% of our time on extra ideas for career development for the function that we were both part of, and we essentially came together in a community of two to just make some things happen.  Initially, it was in a very low-key, very much experimenting sort of way. But what's really interesting is how that was less than 10% of my time, but the impact of that was really high on my relationship with the work that I was doing.  So, it was high impact, and actually quite low time investment, because I'd found someone else who had that shared sense of something that I cared about; they cared about that too.  So, I think the reason that communities are so valuable here is, you've got something in common, you find some other people where you have that shared sense of purpose.  This doesn't have to be a really big group; this could be, as to my example, this was a couple of people initially, and that did grow over time, but it did only take two of us to get started. Helen Tupper: So, we hope that has given you a few different ideas about how you can take the things that you care about, the things that you might want more from from your work, and then take some action, create some things that can move it forward.  And it's really the foundation for how you create that relationship reciprocity which builds better relationships with your work. Sarah Ellis: And if you'd like to listen to a couple of other podcasts about your relationship with work, and maybe this is something you want to dive a bit deeper into, we did an episode on blurred boundaries, that was 121, and work/life fit, which was 227.  So, if you really feel like your relationship with work is not where you want it to be, hopefully today has definitely got you started.  But if you go, "I need to go even further", they're the next two episodes that we would recommend, if you're just thinking, "I need to spend more time on this, because getting a bit more confidence and clarity about my relationship with work feels really important for me right now". Helen Tupper: And we'll put the links to that in both the show notes, which you can generally find on Apple, if that's where you're listening; but also, we'll put it in the PodSheet, and the PodSheet is on amazingif.com.  And, new news, everybody, we have made it easier to sign up for PodMail, which is the weekly email that we send out, which has everything in there; it's the easiest way of getting hold of everything every week, the podcast, all the downloads, and you can just go to amazingif.com and it's the podcast page and you'll just be able to put the email in, and then you'll get that every week. Hopefully, we're trying to make it as easy as possible for you to learn the things that you need to to help you with your Squiggly Career. Sarah Ellis: So, thank you so much for listening, and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now. Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.