Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:03:59: The driving force behind wanting a promotion
00:09:59: Ways to get more money…
00:10:05: … sideways moves
00:11:31: … sideways projects
00:12:35: … learning
00:14:19: … alternative industries
00:15:40: … agreed objectives
00:18:31: More power, more influence…
00:18:55: … stand for, stand out, stand with
00:20:34: … help other people, the 4C model
00:28:05: Supporting other people's development…
00:28:17: … mentoring
00:29:55: … project management
00:30:42: … team development
00:34:36: Wanting to do more of the good stuff…
00:35:00: … get closer to the relevant communities
00:38:27: … spot a problem area and look to fill it
00:41:41: … make changes to your day job
00:45:21: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly show where we talk about the ins, the outs, the ups and the downs of Squiggly Careers, and give you a bit of support, some ideas for action, so that you can feel a bit more confident and in control of whatever is going on for you at work right now.  And this week, we're going to be talking about the topic of promotion, but we're going to be focusing on how you can make progress with your career development when you can't get promoted.

Sarah Ellis: So, within Squiggly Careers, we want you to all be really ambitious for where your career can take you, so we are definitely not anti-promotion.  But we also want to be really realistic that as organisations continue to get flatter, we can't rely on promotions as our only, or even our primary, opportunity to progress.  And also, there are loads of ways of progressing that are really motivating and meaningful that aren't promotions.  So, it's partly about giving ourselves the opportunity to zoom out and to see progression as much more than promotion, but also to recognise that there might be moments where you do feel stuck, or that you're stalling and you would like to get promoted; that would be your objective number one if you could wave a magic wand. 

But there are often reasons outside of your control that means that can't happen, and that can put you in a really tricky dilemma, or it can create a bit of tension, I think, in your Squiggly Career, because maybe you love your manager, you love who you work for; maybe you're really enjoying your job, you really like the culture of the organisation but you can't get promoted for whatever reason, there's no more money, there's not the right role, there's someone in the role that you want to do.  All of those things are the reality of our Squiggly Careers.  So, what do we do in those moments; how can we still progress?

Helen Tupper: When do you think in your career you've been most in this situation where you have wanted to be promoted, but it hasn't been possible and there's been this point when that could have -- and it probably could feel quite frustrating, but you had to make a conscious choice to do something different; when was that most real for you?

Sarah Ellis: What, age; do you want me to give an age?  Or a job?

Helen Tupper: I wasn't expecting a date!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I was like, "How specific does she want me to be?!"

Helen Tupper: You can go there if you want!

Sarah Ellis: Well, I can think of more than one example where this has definitely felt like the situation I've found myself in in my Squiggly Career, probably one in particular where I was working for Barclaycard.  I was based in Northampton in the UK at the time and I wanted to move to London, so at that point I felt like I was ready to get promoted, and really practically I wanted to earn more money so I could live in a very expensive city.  I wanted to climb the ladder, I think I was still pretty attached to the ladder at that moment in time, so that felt like my main priority was to get promoted and it didn't happen.

Helen Tupper: Mine was probably, and again I've had more than one point when this has been a motivator for me but it's not been possible, but I remember being at Virgin and I loved Virgin because it was so fun and people were so friendly, and I just really enjoyed being there.  But it was also really small.  Relatively, it was the smallest place I'd ever worked, even though it was a big brand; there weren't that many people in that part of Virgin.  And actually, I was looking around me, and everyone else in the roles that I could see myself being promoted into, I didn't think I had the skills and experience that those people had.  It was quite specific and I thought, "I want to be promoted, but I honestly look at people who are levels above me in that organisation and I don't think I have got what those roles would need".

So it was like, "I want to be here and I want to be promoted, but I don't think I'm the right person to go for those roles, so what do I do differently with my development?"  I ultimately did and we'll talk about some of things that we've done, some of the ideas that we've got for people listening, but I think everyone has these little moments, don't they, when promotion seems like the thing that we want, but we might have to do something different if we want to take ownership of our development.

Sarah Ellis: So, we want to start by being really specific about why lots of us, and I'm sure lots of people listening, want to get promoted.  And as I said, I don't think this is a bad thing, we shouldn't be beating ourselves up, we should be really ambitious about our careers.  And both Helen and I have had loads of moments in our careers where we really, really wanted to get promoted, and maybe that's because you wanted more money; maybe that's because you wanted to increase your power and influence; maybe it's because you want to support the development of other people and you see getting promoted and managing a team as one way to do that; or, maybe it's because you want to do more of what you want to spend your time on and less of what you don't want to spend your time on, and maybe it's a mixture of all of those four things.

I think it is just helpful though to think about what is your driving force behind wanting a promotion, because then when you think about the ideas for action that we're going to talk about that might feel most useful for you, some of them you might go, "Well, that feels less relevant because actually the reason I wanted to get promoted wasn't about increasing power and influence, it was much more about supporting the development of others", or, "Actually, the thing that matters most to me in my career at the moment is more money.  That's going to make my life easier, I really want to progress in terms of how much I'm being paid", which is a really valid and important thing to think about.  And so therefore, it might be those things that you really prioritise putting your energy and effort behind.

Helen Tupper: So, Sarah, at Barclaycard then, what was your driver?

Sarah Ellis: Good question.  Definitely not supporting the development of others, because I wasn't really at that stage in my Squiggly Career; not power and influence, I don't think I was sophisticated enough to know what either of those things were particularly.  I think it was more of what I wanted, less of what I didn't want, in terms of what I was working on day-to-day.  When I looked at the roles I could get promoted into, I was like, "They're more interesting and I'll get to do more of some of the good stuff in my current role, less of some of the bad stuff".  So I was like, yeah, that and more money.

Helen Tupper: Mine was exactly the same at Virgin, it was exactly the same.  I definitely thought I would have either my first child, or on the way, and I was thinking, "This is getting expensive!"

Sarah Ellis: Childcare costs loads in the UK.

Helen Tupper: "Pay might be becoming more of a priority for me right now!"  And then also, I remember looking around me and thinking, "Oh, wow, those people and those positions' jobs look really, really cool and I would love to do more of that".  And it wasn't that I wasn't enjoying what I was doing, but I loved the look of that stuff a little bit more.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and then I can think of other examples actually that's not stayed consistent in my Squiggly Career.  So, at Sainsbury's, when I wanted to be promoted internally, it was much more about influence and developing other people.  Probably by that point, I was earning enough, whatever your enough looks like, so of course I wanted the money, because who doesn't; I could see how that could be helpful in my day-to-day life, but it wasn't going to make enough of a difference at that point compared to, "I'd love to have a team to develop".  And by that point, I was really into career development, so that was a really big motivator for me.

Helen Tupper: A random reflection for you, which might not be relevant for our listeners, but I was just thinking about, we've worked in organisations where we've had this desire to get promoted and now we run our own company, where we're not really very promotable!

Sarah Ellis: I might just promote myself, in a really arbitrary way!

Helen Tupper: That was my point.  I have no desire to be promoted.  The desire that I had in a corporate setting to get promoted, I haven't even thought about the word "promotion", and I appreciate it's our organisation and we run it, but it's just interesting that I wonder how much of the organisational construct contributes to that being the answer.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and we both have achievement as a value, so if you are achievement-oriented, it gives you something to aim for and it gives you a structure to go after, and I think you attach yourself to it.  And I think sometimes, it's where you get your meaning from, and I think that's some of the wrong reasons to get promoted, just because you think you should, or that's what other people are doing, or that's what someone else tells you to do, but it's an easy trap to fall into.  And like you say, I'm not really sure.  Maybe we could just promote each other!

Helen Tupper: But if you imagine, and this is just a very random one, if you had a level-less organisation, then does promotion become less of a priority?  The need still remains, "I want more money, I want to do less of this and more of that", so the need remains, but the answers become much more diverse, because it's just we've locked onto promotion because of the way that organisations are structured.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I guess when you look at self-organising teams and that Reimagining Organisations book --

Helen Tupper: Yeah, Frederic Laloux.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, which is brilliant, if people haven't read it, lots of those organisations have more of those structures, because what they recognise is, progression is important for everybody, because we all want to feel like we're learning and growing in our careers, no one wants to feel like they're standing still, but it's much more personalised and they can be much more flexible and adaptable about what that looks like and you don't have all of the challenges and the problems that I think this idea of everybody wanting a promotion causes. 

I was actually having a conversation with somebody last week, and they know about Squiggly Careers and their team knows about Squiggly Careers, but she was saying how frequently still, careers conversations are, "When am I going to get promoted?  How am I going to get promoted?" almost because that is still the default, and it is quite hard to move away from that.  So, there's probably some really interesting cultural things that need to sit alongside some of this, albeit I think a lot of things we're going to talk about now are very much in your control as an individual, which is good news.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, most of us can't change the massive organisations --

Sarah Ellis: The construct!

Helen Tupper: -- or the small businesses that we work in, but you can take some slightly different actions, so that you still feel like you're progressing, even if you can't find that promotion that you want.

Sarah Ellis: So, we're going to go through each of those reasons why we want to get promoted, and then think about, "Well, what are the ideas for action?"  So we're saying, we know a promotion is not possible, but we don't just want to let go of progression at that point, because then you get frustrated, you might get angry, you probably get quite demotivated, so it's not good for any of us.  So, can we be creative, can we find another way?

So, let's take the money one first.  So, if we want more money, then what might we do instead?  Well, one thing to think about, which I think is probably one of the more obvious ideas for action, is sideways moves can mean more money, and that has been my experience more than once in my career, this has happened to me a lot.  I've done lots of sideways moves in big organisations, and that has often been an opportunity to renegotiate my salary, to look at that role, to look at some benchmarking externally and to have a conversation not just about going, "Well, I'm going to move from team A to team B and just take my salary with me"; actually, "I'm going to move from role A to role B, what is the salary for role B?" not, "Where have I come from?" so not attaching myself to my salary today.

I think you should always feel confident having those conversations and not assume that an internal move at the same level, if you're in a levelled organisation, means your salary can't change.

Helen Tupper: And I think, as well as any sideways move creating you to have a conversation about your remuneration, I also think that certain sideways moves might have different pay structures.  So for example, I have worked in sales.  Often, people in those sales positions are paid very differently to other roles in organisations; they're much more likely to have a bonus structure that's strongly linked to performance, for example.  And so, there will be other areas in your organisations where the pay structures might be different, and it might be worth understanding what that looks like to see whether that's a sideways move that you might want to make.

Sarah Ellis: So, another way to make more money is side projects.  Now, I know this one can feel --

Helen Tupper: Hustle, hustle!

Sarah Ellis: -- yeah, a bit hustly, which I'm also a bit uncomfortable with, and we actually nearly didn't include this.  But then we thought that would be a bit hypocritical because we both did this, but I suppose we didn't do it to make more money, was the point; we did a side project to enjoy it, because it was something we wanted to spend time on, and we did make some money from it, not life-changing amounts of money, and certainly not money that would be enough to top up a salary if that was your primary purpose. 

But I do know people can maybe explore other skills they've got or how they might use those skills differently as a way to get some extra cash in the short term, but we do understand that's quite a bit ask on top of people's day jobs.  So, we don't want to dismiss it, but I think it's rarely a sustainable answer.

Helen Tupper: I do think side projects can give you a feeling of more control though.  If you're like, "I can do this", I think it gives -- the confidence and control is quite a big part of this, and I think they do enable that.  Another thing that you can do in this area is to look at the money that you can get for learning.  Now, you might not want money for learning, you might be like, "No, I want money for holidays!"

Sarah Ellis: "I want the salary!"

Helen Tupper: But if you're motivation for money might be, "Actually, part of what I want to do is invest in myself, that's why I want more money", then often those learning buckets of funding in your organisation can sit in different places.  So, what I've done before is when I couldn't get more pay, because you're at the top of your band, or for whatever reason there's a pay freeze in the company, it's just you're hitting a wall, there is no more pay right now, sometimes you can unlock, "Well okay, I want to progress, so what could investment in my learning look like?  Here is a programme that I'd like you to support and this is what the funding for that could be".  Those sorts of things have been ways that I've unlocked a pot that overall, if you think about how much you get paid as being a mixture of things, like your benefits, maybe your bonus if you get that, and your base pay, then it's sort of the benefits' bucket that you can sometimes find more ways to tap into.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I can think of three examples of when I've done this in my career, and all of those times it's been incredibly beneficial for me, because I wouldn't have had the cash to have paid for the learning myself.  So, companies do, and like Helen said, it sits in a different place; and also, if they are keen to keep you, it's sort of a win/win, because you're getting the learning, you're getting the learning paid for, and then the organisation recognises they perhaps can't give you what you need right now, but they can give you something different that doesn't mean that you don't still go for that promotion, doesn't mean you don't still want your salary increasing at some point; but perhaps it is an okay interim solution.

Helen Tupper: Another idea, we've got loads of ideas for you here!  Another one is about alternative industries.  So, I think this is where there are potentially hard choices to be made, and we just want to be open about that.  There are definitely industries that pay more.  Banking would be an example of this.  I've worked in the oil and gas industry that is an example of this.  They're not necessarily everybody's favourite --

Sarah Ellis: Super-glam!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, they're not necessarily super-glam, but I got to manage a global team when I did that.

Sarah Ellis: You were very jet-set, weren't you?

Helen Tupper: I was travelling and I had teams in different countries.  I learnt a lot in that role, even though it wasn't glamorous.  It wasn't very glamorous on the surface, but actually it was really influential in terms of me and my development.  But I guess the bigger point is, some industries pay more than others.  So, if you are really motivated by pay, just be aware of that, because it might be that the move that you might want to make is into one of those industries, and you can definitely start exploring them to find out more about them, and think about how your talents can transfer.  That's a difficult choice to make but if money is your main motivator, it might be the right one for you.

Sarah Ellis: I think there are probably certain moments in your Squiggly Career where money is the primary motivator and you do make some tough choices or difficult decisions but you think, "It's worth it for now" or, "It's worth it for where it's going to take me", and I don't think we should apologise for that.

Then, final idea for action here, it can be helpful, depending on who your manager is and the organisation you're in, sometimes there can be agreed objectives that will help to increase your salary, and I share this one because this is something that happened to me, where I asked for a salary increase and the person I was working for was like, "Okay, well I can't give you that now, but I could give it to you in six months' time if we have two or three things that we agree on together.  If you can deliver on these things, then actually that gets you to a level or a standard where then I can pay you more than I do today".

What was great about that, and I think this is really important if you're doing anything around pay, is that it was written down, it was very clearly communicated, there was no room for manoeuvre; we were both very clear about what that looked like.  And then, we revisited it after the six months and then my pay increased at that moment.  And funnily enough when I think back to it now, it was a really easy win for the person that I was working for, but it felt like a really big win for me, because I hadn't quite got what I wanted, and actually it wasn't really that much more for her to give it to me. 

But she probably couldn't do it at that time because of organisational constraints, you can't do pay increases at certain times, and there are sometimes loads of structures around pay make it very difficult for managers to be flexible.  Most managers can't just go, "Okay, well you're brilliant, I'd love to give you more money".  If people could, they usually would.  So, she was basically having to say to me, "You're going to have to wait until a certain date.  I basically can't do anything until then, but at that point I will be able to", and then she probably could have done it anyway.  But all she did was make me then agree to do these things, and it probably gave me really good focus.  So, in hindsight, it was just a really smart thing from her!

Helen Tupper: Well, it goes back to confidence and control, right?  You now feel, "Confident about what I need to do and I feel in control that I'm going to go and do it".  One thing I would say, and I don't know whether this helps or not, but just the issue to be aware of here is just be aware of being breadcrumbed, which we've talked about before, which is where someone says to you, "If you do that, then I'll do this", and it's almost every time that you get a bit closer --

Sarah Ellis: There's another thing.

Helen Tupper: -- yeah, "If you do this".  I think it probably helps you, because if you clearly have a conversation with someone that says, "Well, in order to for me to get X, Y and Z, what do I need to do differently with my development, or in my role?" and that's almost written down, then I think it becomes very clear when you're being breadcrumbed, and then you can move that conversation on, depending on what's happening.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, watch out for empty promises on pay.  I've actually heard quite a lot of horror stories on that that always make me feel really sad, because actually people are really being taken advantage of.  So, don't stand for that but equally, I'd got a manager there who I trusted, and like I say, it was very clear and I actually do think it worked for both of us.

Helen Tupper: So, that's the money one!  Onto the next one.  So, the second one was all about, if the reason that you really want to get promoted is because you want more power, you want more influence over the team, the organisation, then what we would suggest is that you focus on building your profile.  So it's almost like the bigger your brand, the more that you can progress your profile and build your brand, the more opportunities you'll create and the more influence that you'll have anyway.

The idea for action here to help you to think about, "Well, what might I do differently if this is what I want?" is the "stand for, stand out, stand with" way of structuring this.  So, let's start with the first bit.  What is it that you want to stand for; what is it that matters to you; what's really, really important?  This is what gives you a point of difference.  For example, for me, I've always wanted to stand for, how can I help people be at their best?  It didn't matter what organisation I was in, I just really, really cared about careers and people enjoying their work and being at their best.  That is who I am as a leader, what matters to me as an individual.

Then, once you've got that clarity on, "What is it that I really want to stand for?" then think about, "What makes me stand out?"  So, Sarah and I might have some quite similar things that we stand for, but what makes us stand out is really distinct and different.  So for example, the thing that makes me stand out is my energy and positivity.  I will bring that into a room, you'll probably see it and feel it, and hopefully maybe hear it on the podcast as well!  That does make me stand out, it's really different.

Then, based on those things, also think about who you stand with.  That might be the people that care about the same thing that you care about, that thing that you want to stand for; it might be people who have similar things that make them stand out, so you can all feed off each other.  But that kind of clarity that I think that gives you, "What do I stand for; what makes me stand out; and, who am I going to stand with that helps me build my brand, increase my reputation?" those things really contribute to your profile, and your profile really contributes to your progression.

Sarah Ellis: Another way, another lens to look at power and influence through, which might sound slightly counterintuitive, but we know that it works, is how can you focus on helping other people?  So, we've said before, we believe that networking is people helping people, and we know that givers gain more.  So, we know from Adam Grant's research that, when you give without keeping score, they're the people who are the most successful in organisations.  So, this is a good route, a good unlocker of progression.

We use a 4C model when we're talking about this in our workshops just to help you be specific about what this looks like for you, and actually one of these 4Cs definitely unlocked a lot of power and influence for me at a certain moment in my career, where I probably couldn't get promoted, but I progressed a lot and really ended up probably getting promoted because of some of these things.  So, the 4Cs stand for Consumer, Contributor, Connector and Creator, and they're all roles that you can play as part of a network or a community.

When you're a consumer, it's about taking what you know, your knowledge, your skills and your experience and making it useful for someone else, but perhaps in a slightly more passive way than a contributor.  So, an example would be, you listen to this podcast and then you share something with your team.  Maybe you share one of the PodNotes or the PodSheets, or you say, "Here are three things that I found interesting from listening to this week's Squiggly Careers podcast".  You've consumed something and then you've been helpful for other people.

Contributor, I think, is more active.  It's where you've been very clear, what are you going to give; how are you going to give it; and, who are you going to give it to?  This is not about people-pleasing and it's not about being boundaryless, but actually being specific about, "Well, how can I help?"  That might be time and enthusiasm, it could be really deep expertise.  When I first started working in career development, dare I say it without Helen; there was a time before --

Helen Tupper: How dare you?!

Sarah Ellis: I knew you, I knew her at that time, but I definitely was a solo act at that point.

Helen Tupper: I think I was busy doing all that stuff all over the world, wasn't I?!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  Also, what's weird is usually you get bands and they break up and become solo artists.  We've gone the opposite way; I was solo first!  So, I just started testing out my passion for practical career development with enthusiasm and time, and that's what I was contributing.  That for me opened up a whole world of power and influence.  I suddenly had so much more confidence to connect with loads of different people, to actually say to people, "I'm doing this thing, would anyone be interested?"  I definitely got more confidence as someone who was introverted.  So, figuring out what I'd got to contribute was actually really transformational for me.

Then you can be a connector, so this is not just being well connected, but being really generous with those connections and kind of bringing people together.  Those people always have loads of power and influence.  I know people who are amazing at that.  And what I'm always proud of is the fact that whenever I do that, I give myself a little pat on the back, because I could never have imagined being a connector.  And now, I'm not the world's best connector, but there are moments where I can do that well, so it's definitely something I do that increases my power and influence.

Then the last one is creator.  If something doesn't exist that you want to be part of, start it.  It can be 2 people, it can be 200, it can be 20; it could exist primarily on WhatsApp, it could be in-person.  I am part of some really powerful networks that exist on WhatsApp.  There's one that I'm part of where it's a group of women who've all won exactly the same award in marketing.  I'm like a little bit of a lurker there, partly because I'm older than pretty much everybody else there, and most of those people work in marketing, which obviously I don't any more, but I stay. 

The reason I stay in that group as that group has so much power and influence.  Those women are so supportive and knowledgeable and inciteful.  I'm like, "No way am I leaving that group".  I learn so much from it and I think I progress in my job and in my role by being part of this network that actually somebody else has created it.  And actually, I know one of the women that created that group and that has definitely increased her power and influence, and definitely would have helped her get promoted and mean that she's also known way beyond her role and her job profile.

Helen Tupper: I remember when I created the New Work Network, which would have been, I can't remember, it was pre-pandemic, it was all about how we can accelerate the adoption of flexible working, and that was some quite big events that I organised to get people talking about flexible working and learning from each other.  And as a result of doing that, we got our first book offer --

Sarah Ellis: We did!

Helen Tupper: -- because I remember, there was an author there that was talking about a book that they'd written and their publisher was there, and they came to me afterwards and said, "Would you like to write a book on flexible working?" and I was like, "No, but we do want to write a book on Squiggly Careers!"

Sarah Ellis: "Have you heard about Squiggly Careers?!"

Helen Tupper: Yes!  But that opportunity, because when you create a network, you are sort of putting yourself in the position of influence, because you're the person bringing all those people together.  It wasn't necessarily my idea, but I was an accelerator behind that.  Then that is seen by other people and I think it's a really good way, if you're confident enough to do it, it's a really good way to increase your influence that is in your control.

Sarah Ellis: And final point on this, which I think does make a big difference, if your organisation is behind you, even better.  Do you know what, if they're not, go out and do it.

Helen Tupper: I got Microsoft speaking at that event.

Sarah Ellis: I'm sure you did; shocker!

Helen Tupper: I was like, "All right, could you speak at that event?!" 

Sarah Ellis: So, involve your organisation, tell your manager what you're doing.  Hopefully, they will be on your side and want you to succeed and probably also see, "Okay, well we can't promote Helen at the moment, but she's off doing this stuff.  That's given her progression, brilliant; good for us, good for Microsoft".  Again, I do think everybody's winning here.

Sometimes organisations are not as supportive and I've actually been in those places as well, where people feel a bit more uncomfortable about what you might be doing externally.  My suggestion there would be, find a way of making it work for you.  Remember, no one should care about your career more than you do.  And ultimately, you might want to be smart and be strategic and sensible, so you're trying to do it in a way that your organisation feels happy with; or, maybe you do need to keep it quite distinct and different for a while, but ultimately this will really help you.  So, don't be scared if you're thinking, "I'm not sure what my organisation might think".  Don't be scared, just get started.

Helen Tupper: I always think as well, if your job is ever getting in the way of your career, then it is a moment to press pause.  If it's because of your manager, or you're working so much that you haven't got time to invest in your development or even think about your progression, it's always just a, "Hang on a minute, is my job today getting in the way of my career in the future?  I might need to do something different about this".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and there have definitely been moments where that has been true for me, but I think for everybody, as long as it's not a continual moment.  I was talking to someone recently who'd started a new job and you sort of go, well, when you start a new job, I think anything extra kind of goes out the window, I think we all get that, that's fine, your first 100 days.  Or, there might be certain jobs that are -- I was in one job that was very reactive and loads of troubleshooting, and that actually made some of my development really difficult.  And I think ultimately, it did make that job not a sustainable, viable option for me longer term, because there was too much tension too often.  But I was like, "Do you know what, I can live with it for a bit, but not forever".

Helen Tupper: But it's just that, isn't it, it's being conscious about what that looks like.

Sarah Ellis: So, the third one, if the reason you wanted to get promoted was to support the development of other people, then a great place to start here, which I think all Squiggly Career listeners would already have thought of, is things like mentoring. 

So, mentoring doesn't have to be mentoring with a capital M.  I think sometimes the idea of mentoring can feel intimidating.  Actually, someone in our Amazing If team talked to me about wanting to mentor but feeling not very confident about it.  I was like, "Great, now that you've said that out loud, I'm already what about this and how about this?!" and you've done it as well, so that's probably been quite intense for her.  But I think we can all mentor, we've all got something to give, and that's a great opportunity to develop others. 

I also always like thinking if somebody is new to an organisation, so I used to get involve in inductions, which might sound a bit boring, but I always quite liked supporting inductions at Sainsbury's, and it meant I was developing those people in those first 100 days in a new organisation, which I think can feel quite scary and overwhelming.  So, I was practising my developing-people skills with newbies, or people who were perhaps earlier in their career.  Or, perhaps you might be part of communities where people very specifically, or networks say, "Could anyone help with this?" or, "Would anyone like to have a chat about…?"  It doesn't always have to be labelled as mentoring to be developing others.

Helen Tupper: This is a promotion problem that really resonated with me at different points in my career.  I really wanted to become a manager.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, me too.

Helen Tupper: I really, really wanted it.  I feel really sorry for the people that I first managed that were like my guineapigs for all the things that I'd wanted to do for so long to support them with their development!

Sarah Ellis: "I'm here!"

Helen Tupper: But there's this really catch-22 in a lot of companies, where you put yourself forward for those promotions where you get to be a people manager for the first time, but then they go, "But you've never been a people manager", and you're like, "Obviously.  Why do you think I'm applying to be a people manager?"  The way I found my way around this was to project manage and to do bigger and bigger projects, where I was effectively managing the work of more and more people, and so it gave me lots of ways that I could talk -- well, I could learn and I could observe and I could see what worked with different people, because the way that I would influence how people were working was different. 

I remember this at Capital One.  So, there were some analysts and how I would get them to do work would be very different to some people in other areas of the business.  So, I was starting to develop and demonstrate some of these people-manager skills, and then when I was going for these roles, I had much more that I could talk about.  So, it helped me to develop, but it also just made me much more likely to get those positions that I hadn't done before.

Sarah Ellis: And the thing that I did that really helped me, because I had exactly the same problem, I think I love developing people more than I did ever actually most of the jobs that I did, but that was just the thing that I was best at, so probably no surprise we're both doing what we're doing today.  I always used to volunteer and put my hand up for team development, because often as a manager or as a leader, that takes quite a lot of time, there's usually a bit of admin involved with it as well.  So actually volunteering and saying, "Well, can I think about how we might want to develop as a team?" recommend some options, take charge of that, so you're sort of doing collective development, and I did that in loads of different ways.

So, I did it in small ways, like you're a tiny team of three or four; but I also then did it as I started to be part of bigger teams, across a whole function.  So, when I was working in marketing in Sainsbury's and we'd got hundreds of people, I teamed up with a couple of other people and we looked after our marketing development.  That again was massive for me in my career because again, suddenly I felt like I was developing hundreds of people.

Helen Tupper: I remember when you were doing that and how energised you were and how much bigger you made that brief!

Sarah Ellis: I remember first going -- another brilliant Sarah; I'm claiming my own brilliance there, but with another lady called Sarah who is brilliant.  And I really remember us first going to pitch how we might do this development for all of marketing to our boss, who weirdly was also call Sarah, so that's three Sarah's in a room, which is very confusing, and her being very supportive, but we had got really, really big ambitions and really big ideas.  And she very gently nudged us to, "Okay, what are the simple things we could just get started with?" because I think we were probably going to spend millions and no one was ever going to do their day job if they spent all of their time developing, but we were very enthusiastic.

And actually, when I think about some of my proudest moments in my career, what we created there is definitely something I feel incredibly proud of, partly because I think you're doing it with someone else, which whenever you're collaborating, I always think it just feels better.  You started it from scratch, I love starting stuff from scratch, and then I could really see how it moved.  So actually where we started, which was quite small, and we just needed to get it off the ground and we needed to get people energised and excited by it, versus where it finished, which would have been three or four years later, and then it was taken on by other people; and by the end, we were sponsoring it and other people were doing it, I feel like that is a legacy that I actually left and feel really good about, and still refer to now, because I just go, for someone with a rubbish memory, I can really remember what we did and the twists and turns of it and the impact that it had.  So, yeah, I feel really good about that.

Helen Tupper: Good, I can see it in your face.  The thing I think that was also really useful, if you're going to put that level of effort into supporting people's development, creating those kind of learning programmes --

Sarah Ellis: It was a lot of effort, by the way!

Helen Tupper: It was, but you loved it.  But I think a really useful thing it so brand it a little bit, because then you get associated with that programme that you have essentially created.  So, if the reason you want to get promoted is because you want to support the development of other people, then your brand being associated with the programme that you created is a very good leapfrog into those jobs that you might not have done yet.

Sarah Ellis: And again, we want to be really transparent about all the trade-offs here.  To be really clear there, we spent loads of our own time doing that.  It wasn't like suddenly you've got loads of time in your day job; absolutely not.  We were evenings, probably a bit weekends, finding pockets of time to do that.  That's why it's good to do it with someone else, so you're sharing the workload.  But also, it's really important that you're passionate about it, because honestly, I was happy to get to work an hour early to have a coffee and come up with some ideas, or to stay a bit later.  But also, I was at the time in my career where I could do that.

So, if I think about that when, say, I'd just had my little boy five years ago, that just wouldn't even have been feasible.  So, you've got to figure out what works for you at the moment.

Helen Tupper: So, let's move onto the last motivator for getting promoted that you might resonate with, which is that the reason you want to get promoted is you kind of want to do more of the good stuff, more of what you want and less of what you don't.  And this definitely, Sarah and I talked about this, has definitely been a motivator for us at different points in our career.  But let's say you can't do that, for whatever reason you can't get to those promotions that give you more of that stuff, what else can you do?

One of the things that we've done that we have found really useful is to get closer to communities that are working on that thing that you would like to.  So, I'll give you an example.  I was at a point in my career when I wanted to get promoted into a role of an innovation manager and it just wasn't happening.  It wasn't happening because it was this new team and I just couldn't see that job and I didn't have the experience they needed; there were loads of reasons why I wasn't getting it.  But what I did do was I spent more time in that world, and that was actually outside of my organisation.

So, at the time, there was this organisation, which still exists, but it was called Nesta, and there was another one called 100%Open, and they were communities where people, like grownups, went!  And I definitely didn't feel like they were doing the jobs that I wanted to do, but they welcomed me into that room.  And there was a collaboration company, I think they were called, and I just spent time with those people, and then I learnt more from them, they would recommend me for things and put me forward, and it closed the gap pretty quickly, is what I think happened there.  And suddenly, beyond that, I then became Innovation Manager relatively quickly, but it was because of those people that I met, the communities that I got closer to, and the fact that I became a bit more known in them.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I guess what you're doing there is, you're spending time with people who are already doing more of what you want to be doing, and I think this is very clearly not about comparison.  So, we're not trying to make ourselves feel bad for the fact that that's not us; what we're trying to do is borrow their brilliance, almost learn by osmosis, just by hanging around with the right people in the right places.  I feel like as long as you're spongey, you absorb lots of that good stuff.  And actually, you are getting more of what you want, maybe not from your day job, but from other people.

I think about that when I think about career development.  When I was thinking, "I think I do want to work in career development, but I can't get promoted into a job to do career development".  Actually, if I could have done in an organisation at one point, I would have done, but you know when you're like, "That person's not going anywhere", and sometimes that's just a fact and you could just see it.  I tried to work out was that -- I was like, "They are literally never going anywhere", and do you know what, I think that's still true, I think that person's still doing that job when I remember thinking, "Sure you don't want to go and squiggle and stay, do something a bit different so basically I could do your job for a bit?" and I was like, "Okay, it's not going to happen".

So, I did need to do that outside-in and go and find those communities.  And I think because communities tend to be cross-industry, they tend to have people at lots of different levels, there's not that sense any more, I certainly hope, of almost communities being for the fortunate few, you know that ladderlike world of, "How do you break into them?"  Certainly, from what I've seen now, communities feel much more open, like you say, much more welcoming, more of the easier access. 

If you're not sure, figure out who you can connect with and ask, "Are there any communities that you're part of?"  I've done that even within the small business world thinking, "Who are the small businesses that are scaling; how do we spend more time with those kind of businesses?"  So, I literally just started asking around, "How do I get close to those communities?  Have you heard of X; have you heard of Y?" and you think, "No?  No?"

Helen Tupper: Well, what I've done before is I've looked for companies, like "bodies" and things, which was like Nesta was, and they often have events, virtual now and in person.  So, it might not be a big community, it might be one company who operates in the area that you're interested in, who has an event; and just going to that event, talking to people is one way that you can get closer.

Another thing that you can do here is to spot a problem that an organisation might have, or it could be a team, that doesn't have a position at the moment.  So, I'll give you some examples here.  When I worked for BP, I worked in a part of the business called Castrol, and one of the problems that I noticed was that we didn't have a really mature customer insight or customer experience team, it just wasn't part of the way that team worked.  And what I recognised was that we would have a better marketing function if that existed. 

So, I spotted a problem and I basically pitched a position.  I spoke to my manager about what I thought we were missing and what the issue was and what it could look like, and put myself in a very good position for that position.  So, that was a way that I got to do more of what I wanted.  I loved customers experience, I loved customer insight, and I created that opportunity, and it's not the only organisation that I've done that in. 

I did exactly the same thing in Virgin, where I was working on insight and then turned that into a loyalty programme, spotted a problem with the way that that organisation was operating and then created a position and ultimately lots of other positions for other people that would be better for the business and better for me.  So, I think this is quite a confident move to make, and I think it does depend a little bit on the relationship that you have with the person that you're presenting the problem and the position to.  But it's definitely a way.  It doesn't have to be a permanent position, it could just be --

Sarah Ellis: A secondment.

Helen Tupper: It could be a secondment, yeah, or maybe even a project.  But it gets you to spend more time on it and it helps people to see you in a way that they might not be doing in what you're working on at the moment.

Sarah Ellis: Do you know what's also nice about that, is you are starting from the point of, what does the organisation need versus what do you need.  So, sometimes one of the things that is difficult about promotions or progression, it feels very I, I, I and sometimes, managers or leaders in organisations feel backed into a corner and no one is at their best when they're backed into a corner.  However, if you're saying, "What I've noticed is, we've got a gap here [or] there's this challenge [or] this feels like this could be a really interesting opportunity", you're almost starting where they are and with what they need, and then you almost slide into, "I happen to be the solution!"

Helen Tupper: Well, I've done it for us, haven't I?  Do you remember when I said, "I think I'd like us to grow in this area and I'd like to do a secondment for three months as a Head of Growth"?

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah, forgot about that.  Are you off to do that soon, are you?

Helen Tupper: I mean, I'd quite like to.

Sarah Ellis: Shall we chat about that?

Helen Tupper: Let's talk about that!

Sarah Ellis: And actually, we are talking here about progressing when you can't get promoted.  I have been promoted by doing this.  I was just thinking then as you were giving that example, once, I can only give one example, but once in my career, I did spot a problem and pitched it and actually managed to get promoted as well.  So, it's not one of those things that will happen really frequently in your Squiggly Career, but you never know.  Always better to know than not know.

Helen Tupper: And mine resulted in a promotion as well, not immediately, because I created the position and I moved across at exactly the same, everything was the same, layer, everything.  But then, because I proved the position in my performance, I unlocked a promotion.  It's interesting, isn't it?  So, you know sometimes if you do want to go upwards, sometimes going sideways and creating that, it creates the opportunity.

Sarah Ellis: And then finally, making changes to your day job.  So, this is what sometimes we would describe as job crafting, probably a conversation to have with your manager, conversations usually, rather than just a one-off conversation; something you want to involve your manager in, rather than going, "Sort this!" or expect them to do the hard work for you.  I think there are a few things to just watch out for here.

One of the things that we are very conscious of is, doing more of what you want, less of what you don't want, really motivating for you but only to a point; because, one of the things that you want to watch out for is the unpaid work creep, which probably feels familiar for all of us.  And I think it is okay some of the time if you're very intentionally and consciously saying to somebody, "Right, I really want to get promoted, I recognise that can't happen, but I love the organisation, I love my role.  At the moment, I spend 20% of my time doing creative strategy, I want that to be 40% of my time, can we talk about how we might make that happen; I've got a couple of ideas?" and essentially, you're not expecting a salary change, you're recalibrating, realigning the work that you do, so it will feel more motivating and engaging for you, which is great.  I do think there are lots of upsides to that.  It's just that thing of just being careful that you don't end up then in a more senior job without the salary.

So again, this might just be about being really transparent and saying, "Great, that works for me for now and I'm really prepared to do that for the next three months [or] the next six months, but at that point I want to sit down and have a conversation about the impact that I have or had and the difference that I've made, and then really think about how I might continue to explore where my career might take me", so just so that people don't take advantage, or it might even be an assumption, they might not even be actively taking advantage, they might just not have realised.  Often, you know the reason you use the word "creep", it's like Squiggly creep, it happens bit by bit and then suddenly, you almost are doing that job that you didn't get promoted into, with no more money and maybe more hours, and then you're like, "Oh, okay".

If you have taken control of that, I think that's very different versus it's been a choice for a time-bound period, I think that is very different to that happening to you.

Helen Tupper: Sarah and I have had debates about this before, because I worked in an organisation that formalised this.  They called it a stretch role, so effectively if you wanted to put yourself forward for a promotion, then you had to do a stretch role for six months, where you basically operated in that role without being rewarded.

Sarah Ellis: I've been in organisations that have done this.  I don't think they do it now, but I think they did.

Helen Tupper: I don't know if that organisation did, but I quite liked it, because I liked the achievement and the challenge, so I found it quite motivating.  But I remember at the time, you being like, "That is wrong!"  And I'm not trying to debate that point, but I think your point that you made now is the thing that's most important.  And I think if you are choosing to do it and you feel in control of the time period that that relates to, then that's your choice.  If you feel like you are being taken advantage of, you're being breadcrumbed, it's more and more for basically less and less, if you were to add up your time and your pay, then it's going in the wrong direction and that's unlikely to work well for you over the long term.

Sarah Ellis: I suppose it's like, do you feel like the effort and reward is worth it?  And as long as you do, I think that is okay.  I think it might be an okay compromise for a while, and then let's hope that promotion then comes your way.  But I think again, just watch out for it going too far and for too long.

Helen Tupper: So, I guess we really wanted to come across as being positive about promotions, because sometimes when we talk about Squiggly Careers, I think people think, "They're just anti-promotions", and we're not at all.  We're ambitious, we think promotions are great, but we don't think they're the only way that you can progress.  And if it's not possible, we don't want you to start to stall and stagnate.  So, the ideas that we've shared with you, we wanted to give you some more control over how you're developing, so that there are basically more options and opportunities for you.

We will summarise all the things we talked about, the ideas for action, in a PodSheet.  So, that is a one-page summary of what we talked about today on the podcast, and you can get it from our website, amazingif.com, there's a podcast page.  And, whilst you are on our website, it is worth also checking out our toolkit.  So, we have got lots and lots of free career development resources.  We've got a career canvas, we've got a toolkit on values, we've got peer-to-peer coaching.  There is so much stuff to support your development, so please head over to amazingit.com and find that stuff.

Sarah Ellis: This week's topic is a really important one to us, so we would love to get your feedback on how useful and helpful this has been, whether there's still questions or niggles in your mind.  You can email us at any time.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  So, please do get in touch and if there are other podcast topics or themes you'd like us to cover, we'd always want to know those too.  But that's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening and we're back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.