Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:38: Pivot fatigue

00:02:58: Pivots and development

00:03:55: A five-part process…

00:04:32: … 1: plot your possibilities

00:08:40: … 2: spot your pivot people

00:12:41: … 3: create some pivot projects

00:17:34: … 4: apply and ask

00:23:15: … 5: take pride in your pivot

00:27:15: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and share some ideas and some actions that we hope will help all of us just navigate this Squiggly Careers that we all find ourselves in with that bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And today, we're going to be talking about how to plan your pivot.  And this is a topic that we have talked about before, but it was way back in August 2018, where pre-pandemic, I feel like pivots were considered, but perhaps not forced upon many of us. 

And actually, when you look into the data on pivots, lots more people are now interested and open to pivots, which I'd say actually is a sign of Squiggly Career success, that people are actually able now to consider and talk about doing something different than they've always done.  I think that's great we're having those conversations.  But when we talked about it before, the context of that episode was Sarah and I were sharing some of our career pivots.  I was still at Microsoft then, when we were talking about it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I was the Managing Director for a creative agency with a one-year-old.  I don't remember loving 2018, if I'm honest!  I don't know how much I'd want to go back and listen to that episode.

Helen Tupper: Well, listeners, should you wish to, please do, but we won't.  But yeah, that was the context at the time.  So, we were sharing some of our own experiences and talking about some of the considerations when you're maybe thinking about a pivot.  Today is going to be quite a lot more practical, I would say.  We've got a process so that you can kind of walk through it step by step if you're thinking, "Actually, I would like to make a pivot.  This does definitely feel like something that I want to do, I just don't quite know how to do it".

Sarah Ellis: And so, as Helen said, we aren't really going to talk about the feelings and the emotions that go with pivoting, which are very real and at times can be very hard.  I think pivoting, you can sort of get pivot fatigue.  I was reading some research before today about people talking about, they've been trying to make a pivot happen and it feels like it's stalled or got stuck, or perhaps it feels like it stopped and then it started a bit so it's felt a bit ad hoc.  And I do think those are all the realities of making a pivot happen. 

I think it never happens overnight, I think often you nudge your way into pivoting.  I think pivoting, our starting point because of the word, always feels really dramatic, like we're going to have this overnight change of career, whereas I do think the reality is we're much more likely to kind of make a series of mini pivots to get to where we're going, rather than just go from zero to hero, I guess. So, that is kind of the context.  We know that there are moments where you'll try some of the things that we'll talk about today and they might not work, or you might feel like you're not that much further forward.  But what we think is that if you keep going back to these steps to this process, it will help to guide you in the right direction.

Helen Tupper: And pivots are helpful for your development because they keep you learning.  So when you're pivoting, you're probably going to have to learn how to work with different people, or how to develop different skills, or how to get your head around a new context, so it's quite a forcing function really for learning.  It also helps you to create more opportunities.  So, we often talk about one of the problems with ladder-like careers is you're often in 'wait' mode, waiting for the next promotion, waiting for someone to give you the next project to work on; whereas in Squiggly Careers, we really want to be in 'create' mode, because that gives us more ownership over our opportunities and means we're less dependent on any one particular position.  

And pivots are definitely a way that you create more possibilities, because you're getting very curious about your career and you're really thinking about, "Where can my talents take me?" far more than, "Where do my titles take me?"  They're definitely worth looking into as a possibility for your progression. What we're going to do is talk through a five-part process to help you to do that.  So, I'll just summarise it and then we're going to go through each part of the process in turn and just talk it through and explain what it looks like.  And we'll summarise it all on the PodSheet, which you can either get from the show notes or from our website on the podcast page.  But the five parts of the process are: (1) plot your pivot possibilities; (2) spot your pivot people; (3) create pivot projects; (4) apply and ask; and (5) take pride in your pivot.

Sarah Ellis: So, the first part is about plotting your possibilities.  This is probably the part that I would always enjoy the most, and I think I have always enjoyed the most when I've been thinking about wanting to do something different, because this is when we really want to be in 'exploring' mode, in generating, thinking about ideas.  We don't want to constrain ourselves too soon.  I always think the reality for most things kicks in quite soon, so let's be confident that that will happen.  But for now, as you're first getting started, I do think here you're considering the art of the possible, where you might go and what you might do.  And I think that has to start with you. 

So, what do you want to be known for?  What are the transferrable talents that you want to take with you?  What are those things that really give you energy?  So, when I was reflecting on this for myself, I think my most consistent thing that I've wanted to be known for, that's been in every pivot possibility that I've ever explored, has always been around ideas.  So, ideas is always my starting point for any pivot possibility.  As long as I've got the ability to create and to have ideas, I'm interested, I'm intrigued, it's a good place for me to start. Then, I think you have to connect the dots between what you want to be known for and who needs what you want to be known for. 

So, I always think of this as supply and demand.  So, it's okay me saying that I want to be known for ideas and it's what gives me energy, but is that what people need?  Are there roles where they talk about being creative or having ideas or innovating or doing things for the first time?  If I can't really see those projects or those positions, maybe at the moment it's not a skill that is in demand or maybe it's being talked about in a slightly different way.  This is where, if I wasn't sure about supply and demand, I would do the scanning exercise that we sometimes talk about when we talk about career possibilities, which again I always enjoy because I quite like suspending reality I think for a bit, and just looking at lots of different job specs on LinkedIn and use those as a bit of a filter for what are people looking for. So, if I was looking at different possibilities, I could start to see, are people using the words 'idea'; are they using 'create new opportunities', 'opportunity' would probably be quite a good one for me to look for.  And you can just start to see, "Okay, well I know what I would like to do, I know what people need, how can I put myself in a position to get close to those things?"  

And I think at this point, you are aiming for probably four to six different pivot possibilities.  Maybe some of these are quite close to what you're doing today, maybe some of them feel further away, some might be in your organisation, some might be outside, might be in your industry, might be outside your industry.  So I always think, try and have fun with this.  But I do think sometimes people are in this stage of just going, "I don't know what I don't know", and I think this will help you to just get some clarity on, "Okay, well it could look like this, or maybe I could consider this opportunity", and it gives you something to work with.  You might change it all halfway through the process, but at least you've got a starting point.

Helen Tupper: And I think, you know you said four to six?  I think that's an important point to make about pivots, because sometimes you're in the role that you're in today and you can see a pivot that you want to make, and then you're just going, "Well, I'm in A and I want B, that pivot", and I still think that's problematic because you've got really fixated on one version of the future, and so you're not necessarily exploring around that opportunity.  Whereas ideally, if you've got more than one pivot, there's more than one thing that you can do or move into, then you can do more exploring and create more opportunities.  So, just as we would say with ladders, "Don't fix yourself to a singular promotion", I think don't fix yourself to a single pivot, because then you're becoming very dependent on that pivot being possible. 

So, having more than one is a really good thing. So, the second part of the process is to spot your pivot people.  So, you go from Sarah's exercise, which gets you to maybe four to six different pivot possibilities; now, we want to think about some pivot people.  Pivot people have got some kind of connection to that career possibility, maybe because they are doing or have done the job that you'd like to do, or maybe they work in the area that you want to, or maybe they know somebody who could be useful to you. 

So, if I think about an example pivot possibility, if I was to think about, "What do I want to be known for?"  So, energy definitely, career development; they're two things I really care about. So, if I think about a pivot possibility for me, I recently spoke at Oxford University, which felt very big and grand, to their about 200 MBA students at the start of their MBA programme.  And it did make me think, Sarah and I have talked before about being some visiting professor in universities sharing squiggly skills with students, which I think is appealing to us. 

So I think for me, there's probably some kind of pivot possibility, which is where I'm spending part of my time supporting students with Squiggly Careers in some way, shape or form; there's a pivot possibility there.  So, what I would think about, with that being one of my pivot possibilities, is maybe who already delivers some form of career support to a student context, university or sixth form or in school, whatever that looks like; I might think about who works in academia, doesn't necessarily do what I would like to do, but works in that area and could give me some insight; or, just somebody who's in my network today that might be connected into that area that I could have a conversation with.  So, these pivot people basically get you closer to that possibility. All you're going to do is get in touch with them and have a curious conversation.  So, this isn't, "Can you make my pivot possible?"  So, it's not that at this stage.  This is, "Can I learn more about this area I'm interested in, because you're closer to it than I am?"  That's all this is, and you're just gathering information.  But it is very likely, as we will come on to, that people will be the unlocker of your pivot, because directly applying isn't always that easy when you've not done the job before.  So, it is helpful to have these relationships.  But really at this stage, we're just unlocking learning, gaining more insight.

Sarah Ellis: Somebody did this actually to me recently, where they work at a company that we work with, and they said they've always felt like maybe they would like to work in learning and career development, but they weren't sure.  And I'm a fan of the voice note.

Helen Tupper: Yes, you are!  I love your voice notes now; I've grown to love them!

Sarah Ellis: You've grown to love them!

Helen Tupper: I have.  I think I've just been word down!  I remember at the beginning, I was like, "When am I supposed to listen to this?"  Now, I like them.  I listened to yours today, it was very nice.  You're walking along and chatting and I was like, "Oh, that's nice!"

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I don't know what it says about me.  I quite enjoy the one-way-ness of them, I think!

Helen Tupper: I know, I know that!

Sarah Ellis: But I did say to this person, because I actually couldn't make time for the conversation that they wanted to have immediately, but I did say, "If you leave me a voice note with your questions, then I'll answer them", because then I can do it at a weird, random time that works for me and we don't have to coordinate diaries, and all that kind of stuff.  And so, I think I admired that that person was brave enough to get in touch with me and basically ask to do that.  And even though I didn't quite probably say yes in an ideal way for them, they will still end up getting their questions answered and they still will have made a connection.  And also, I'll remember them, because we've gone back and forth a few times on voice notes, and hopefully then I might meet somebody who I'll think, "Oh, it'll be useful for them to speak to that person", and then suddenly you've created that chain of connections that we've talked about before. So, number three is creating some pivot projects. 

So, I think the hardest thing about pivoting is that you are going to do something that you've not done before, and that always feels hard.  And often, it is still unfortunately easier to recruit somebody who looks the same as the person before.  We hope that's changing.  Part of our mission around Squiggly Careers is to change that so that people look first for things like, "Well, are people great at learning, and are they good at being a beginner; are they great at managing uncertainty and change?"  Those things probably feel more important than whether you've done an exact job before.  But it is hard and we know this is hard.  So, your talents are going to need to do the talking for you.  So, I think anything that you can do to put into practice the talents that you want to take with you before you pivot, the better prepared you'll be and the more likely you'll be to succeed, when you get into the applying stage. This might look like projects, this might look like volunteering, this could be side projects, passion projects, hobbies, anything that you can do, I think, to get some extra experience where you're not trying to hide the fact that you haven't done something before. 

I always think you're better to talk about it, but what you are showing is a lot of initiative and being really proactive.  And I'm sure we've said it before, but I don't think that's as typical or as common as everybody listening might think, because if you're listening to a career development podcast, you probably have a lot of initiative.  So, you're probably thinking, "Well, surely everybody does this", but I don't think people do.  And so, I think if you can create these opportunities for yourself, they're small opportunities to pivot that you're very much in control of.  You're being resourceful around trying to find opportunities to get experience of your pivot before you get there.  It's just a smart thing to do and you'll find out more about the pivots that you're thinking about; you might make new connections, back to what Helen was talking about in terms of getting the right people around you; and it won't guarantee that you'll then definitely get those roles, but it will give you lots more to talk about.  It will show that you're really serious and you never know, it might open up a different opportunity along the way as well.

Helen Tupper: Had a brilliant email from someone last week who was relatively early on in their career, and had gone into a role that they realised they basically didn't enjoy.  And they said, "So, I've gone out and I've got a mentor in an area that I'm interested in so I can learn more from them.  And I've gone and I've been investing in this skill because I think that's an area I'm interested in.  And I volunteered to work on this project", and done basically all the stuff that we're saying here, really put themselves out there.  And they messaged me and said, "But I feel like I'm doing it all wrong and I don't know if this is the right thing to do".  And most of my email back was like, "Please realise how positive and proactive that you are being.  You are doing exactly the right thing.  You've realised the thing that you want to do isn't giving you energy, you're exploring and connecting and creating opportunities; it will probably take a bit of time, but you are doing it with 100% the right approach".  And I felt like this person just needed a little bit of like --

Sarah Ellis: I suppose, reassurance.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, which I gave and I thought, I'm very happy to give that to someone and she definitely, definitely deserved that reassurance, but I'm like, "Somebody else should be reassuring you.  I want you to be getting reassurance from more than us!"

Sarah Ellis: Do you know what, that's also not the first time that I've heard that, and I do wonder whether sometimes it's because the payoff for taking these actions isn't always immediate.  And so you are like, on paper you're doing all of the right things, and then you probably do get to a point where you're like, "Well, I've been doing this now for three months.  Why has it not resulted in something, why am I not seeing the outcome?"  And I think that then starts to feel really hard, right, because you're like, "Well, I am trying really hard and I am taking my initiative", and that's where I think you have to be determined. 

And also, hopefully, some of those things that you are doing that are maybe outside of your role or that you're putting your hand up for, hopefully some of those things you are enjoying.  I think if they're things that you want to get closer to, if they're giving you energy and you're enjoying them, if they've not paid off yet, that's probably okay.  If you're feeling like you're having to force them then they're perhaps not the right things.  That would be the other question just to think about.

Helen Tupper: And I think that links to the fourth part of this process, which is about applying.  So, up until this point, you've explored your possibilities, you've had some conversations with pivot people, you've proactively created some pivot projects.  There is a point at which we're going to apply for the pivot position that we want to do.  And this stage really is about 'apply', but also making sure that you 'ask' for insight and for feedback.  And the reason this is important is, pivots require persistence.  You might not get the first role that you apply for, because maybe you haven't got the relationship with that person who could make a decision on that pivot, or maybe you haven't quite got the right experience yet. 

So, I think just bear that in mind.  This is where believing in yourself and having confidence in the move and doing some of those pivot projects so you've got energy is really, really important.  And when you're applying, if you don't get the project or the position that you're trying to pivot into, look for the learning here, because it might feel really frustrating and you might feel a bit disappointed or even demotivated about, "Oh, am I doing the right thing?"  Really, really look for the learning.  The learning comes in the feedback. So, let's say I'm applying for a role with Sarah, and I pivot into the job at Amazing If.  Sarah thinks it's not quite the right move for me to make at the moment.  I could go away from that and just feel sad, or I could look for the learning, which would be me saying to Sarah, "It's definitely something I'd interested in.  Next time I have a conversation about this, is there anything that you saw in me that you think it would be useful for me to know, so that I can put myself in a really positive position in the future?"  Ask for feedback, ask for insight, even ask for connections, you know, "I'd like to learn more about this.  Is there anyone that you could connect me to so I can get closer to it?"  Look for the learning, create the opportunities, but just be aware that applying does require a bit of persistence when you're making pivots.

Sarah Ellis: And even worse than this, I do hear, to be honest, more and more examples of where people apply and get nothing, so get ghosted essentially.  So, you get no feedback, you get, "No, you weren't successful", you're clearly then not getting an interview.  I do think there is also a point where if you are applying, let's imagine you are getting interviews, but you're not successful, you might at some point go, "Well, I'll give myself a time limit".  I always think time limits are helpful.  So, "Over this year [or] over the next six months, I will apply and be really ambitious and really go for my pivot all-out where I'd ideally like to go".  If after six months you're not getting any interviews, or you are getting interviews but you're never being offered the role, then you do need to adjust, you do need to adapt and perhaps think differently.  

You might want to think, "Well, what is an easier pivot?  What is a halfway pivot?" I remember thinking when I was in Sainsbury's, "Oh, I'd really like to go and work in [surprise, surprise] learning and development".  And it was really far from where I was; I was working in marketing.  And actually, the more I explored it, I definitely would have liked to have gone and done it, but I just felt like it wasn't going to happen.  I could sense, I was like, "Oh, I'm not sure they're up for somebody coming from such a different area.  Also, the people in those roles are probably not really going anywhere".  I wasn't necessarily applying, but I'd been quite persistent, having lots of the conversations, lots of the things that we were talking about, getting involved in some projects.  So, I'd done some of these steps that we've described.  

And then I thought, "Do you know what, it's probably not really going to happen".  And so, I did then start to adapt and adjust and think, "Okay, well where else and what else?"  And it doesn't mean you have to give up on that thing you want to pivot towards, because clearly I didn't, but I did think about doing it in a different way.  So, you can pivot outside for a bit, it doesn't always have to be your day job, you can do a much smaller pivot.  What you don't want to do is get to the point where you either feel burnt out or just feel really down about your capabilities or what you've got to offer, because if you're doing all these things, you will be great. The other top tip I would have actually, if you're thinking about pivoting, look for people who have got a track record of recruiting pivoting people, because I think those people are already open to people who are squiggling. 

And obviously, everybody should be open to squiggling, but we haven't got to everybody yet.  We will do, we will; that's our lifetime mission.  Our legacy will be to get to everybody to convince them about Squiggly Careers!

Helen Tupper: Well, case in point, I was with TikTok today, launching TikTok's Career Week and talking about Squiggly Careers, and I had a panel of six different people from TikTok who were talking about their career.  And they were super, super-pivot-y.  They'd done so many different things in different markets and different industries.  And so clearly you're like, "Oh, that is a brand which values people's talents over their titles".  Most of those people hadn't made a title-based move.  And I think asking people, "Do people pivot in your company?" or just talking to people about their Squiggly Career stories and hearing, that's all I did today, and you're hearing and you're going, "Oh, they're interesting moves that people have made". I think a company that prioritises the interesting moves people have made and helps them to move into more interesting moves, that aren't always logical and linear, is a bit of a signal that they're going to be more open to somebody who wants to pivot.  So, yeah, I definitely think look for pivot recruiters, look for companies where there are Squiggly Career stories in them; they're always a good sign that they might be more open to these kinds of moves.

Sarah Ellis: And the last one, so number five, is about taking pride in your pivot.  And this really links to the Squiggly Career stories that Helen just mentioned.  We see, time and time again, that when people share their stories, it shows everybody else what can be and what they can do, and it just feels really inspiring, and at the same time, realistic and relevant.  You make something that feels hard to do, much more accessible by sharing your Squiggly Career story.  So, if you have pivoted, please make sure you talk to people about it, what worked for you, what didn't work, what helped you, what felt really hard.  And that doesn't have to be on something like LinkedIn, though of course it can be, or TikTok, if you'd like it to be, but it could be just in your team or in your company.  And I think everybody has a pivot story in their Squiggly Career somewhere along the way.  

And you could even do as a team exercise, "What's the pivot you've made in your Squiggly Career so far that perhaps might surprise people, or what did you learn from it?" because certainly early on in your career, everyone always does a range of jobs. So, at some point you will have, I don't know, pivoted from doing your newspaper round to being an aerobics instructor, if you're me.  That would be one of my funnier pivots in the past!  Not sure there was loads of transferrable talent.  Maybe talking to people a little bit, running away from scary dogs when I was posting newspapers and stuff, staying fit.  But I think getting people to just share their stories really sticks.  And I think never underestimate how much we respond to stories.  And it's also really good for you to be proud of them, but also it's how you can have a ripple effect on other people too.

Helen Tupper: I also think, if you want to make more pivots in the future, it's useful for people to almost see your pivotability.

Sarah Ellis: You're really trying to make that a word, aren't you?!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I'm totally making this a word!

Sarah Ellis: You were like, "I want to make it a word"!

Helen Tupper: "What is your pivotability?"

Sarah Ellis: And you wrote at the top of this, I'll say script, in inverted commas, you were like, "I really like 'pivotability'".  So, I was like, "I'm just not going to comment on that"!

Helen Tupper: So, my point though on pivotability is that if I, I mean I don't really do this at the moment, but I have made quite a few pivots.  So, if I talked about the pivots I had made, like industry pivots and things like that, it would give a sense of confidence in my pivotability, the fact that you could move me to different positions and I'm quite good at picking up a new position or picking up a new industry. 

So almost, I think if you want to do more than one pivot in your career, if you think, "This is a good way for me to develop", I think having some confidence in telling your Squiggly Career pivot story, "These are pivots I've made, this is what I learned from it", all that kind of stuff, helps other people to feel confident in unlocking future pivots for you to do.  Because you've shown that you're tried and tested like, "This is something that I do well, and therefore it's an easy thing for me to do to pivot into a new position, because I've got experience of doing it effectively before".  That's what I mean by pivotability!

Sarah Ellis: We'll see.  Shall we see whether it catches on or not?!

Helen Tupper: I don't know, what's the sign that the term 'pivotability' catches on?  Okay, here we go, let's see.  If you think pivotability is, let's give it, is that a useful term or a useless term, email us!  You may have never emailed us before.  You can literally just say, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, and in the subject line, "Pivotability equals 'useful' or 'useless'".  And then, I'll also post about it on LinkedIn and I'll see whether it sticks; you never know!

Sarah Ellis: It feels like one of those, I mean we can't talk because we are writing a book at the moment, but like so many business books feel like they have to be one word.  "Pivotability", our books are very much --

Helen Tupper: "The pivot effect"!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah!  There probably is; there is probably a book called that.  But we hope that has been useful for you.  We know pivoting is hard, it takes perseverance and persistence.  So, good luck if you are going through this process at the moment. 

And if there's something we've missed, if you have pivoted successfully and you think, "Oh, actually, it'd be really helpful if the Squiggly Career listeners knew about… and Sarah and Helen didn't mention it", get in touch with us, let us know, message us on LinkedIn, because we can always include it as part of the resources that we share, whether that's on things like the PodNote or the PodSheet.  We put all of those things together so that you have everything in one place, but also to try and make our ideas and the actions easy for you to share with other people too.

Helen Tupper: And we also put some other recommended resources.  So, I think an expert in this area is Jenny Blake, who's written a book called Pivot, so that's definitely a recommended read, or a listen if you'd rather listen to books.  But that is everything from us this week, and so we'll be back with you very soon, everybody.  Bye for now.

Sarah Ellis: Bye everyone!