Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:51: Some common obstacles

00:06:01: Three Ps of pessimism

00:09:53: Optimistic alternatives

00:14:36: Find another way

00:24:29: Regain control and energy

00:33:51: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we take a different topic to do with work and we try to share some ideas, some actions and some tools that we hope will help all of us to navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And as well as the podcast episode that you are listening to, we've got lots of extra squiggly support for you as well.  So we've got PodMail, that is a weekly email you get every Tuesday, and it puts all of our little tools in one place for you and you also find out about good stuff that's coming soon.  Hint: something good is coming soon, you might want to subscribe to that!  We've also got PodSheets, which are one-page summaries, so you can print them off and you can fill out some of the questions that we've got, or you can use them together in your teams; lots of people tell us they use those. 

And we've got PodPlus.  So if you ever think, "I feel like I want to talk this through with somebody and I can't do it at the moment in my work", don't worry because we've got a community for you.  It is all free, the people are all lovely and there's lots of great learning that happens.  That's every week on a Thursday. All the links to that stuff are either in the show notes or go to our website, Amazing If, or if you're still struggling, don't worry, just email us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: So today, we're talking about how to overcome common career obstacles.  So, it feels like a bit of a negative topic to be starting with, but we felt like there were some obstacles that we will all experience in our Squiggly Careers, these knotty moments which are difficult, and where when we're stuck in these moments, it is really helpful to have some tactics, some tools to help us to make progress. 

Because I think often in these moments, we do feel frustrated, you perhaps feel helpless and typically, low levels of control, "I know I want to change something, I don't want to stay where I am, but it feels hard to make that happen". So, a couple of the common ones that we've identified are a boss who feels like a blocker, a company where you can't progress, money getting in the way of making a move, and personal constraints that feel like they affect your progression.  So, Helen, of all of those, how many of those have you experienced?

Helen Tupper: Well I feel like we might have missed the fifth one.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, go on.

Helen Tupper: You know when you've got a really difficult business partner?  No, I'm joking!

Sarah Ellis: I mean, we are in the same room right now so I could literally throw something at you, which, yeah, would be quite funny!

Helen Tupper: She's going to throw a microphone at me!

Sarah Ellis: I know you wouldn't catch it, so it would be funny!

Helen Tupper: She's so mean, she's so mean.  You started it!  Do you know what I was playing with --

Sarah Ellis: I can actually see you in the mirror, look.  If I turn around, I won't be able to see the mic, but I've got like a mirror reflecting back.

Helen Tupper: I feel like I had a real funny moment of parental pride at the weekend, where I was playing the only sport I was ever any good at at school.

Sarah Ellis: Oh yeah, what was that?

Helen Tupper: I know, Sarah's like, "There was a sport you were good at?"  Rounders, Sarah, rounders.  She doubts it.  I'm quite good at catching a whack!

Sarah Ellis: Catching a ball?

Helen Tupper: Yes.  Look!  Oh my gosh, you can't see her face, but she is so surprised!  Yes.  I mean, not if I have to run for it.

Sarah Ellis: Okay, as long as you're standing still?

Helen Tupper: Yes, if the ball comes to me, I'm really good at catching it.  If it involves any kind of running towards it, I've just given up!  So, we were playing cricket actually, with my son in the garden, and he's 9 and was like, "Mummy, you're quite good at catching!"  And his surprise, and mine was like, "Yes, Henry, I'm well aware of this random skill".  Sarah's going to put it to the test and, yeah.

Sarah Ellis: I'm going to throw something at you just to see if you catch it!

Helen Tupper: There's an apple coming my way shortly!  See my responses.  So, more seriously, the obstacles that I have felt in my career.  I have the boss who's felt like a blocker, tick several times; company where you can't progress, yeah, I've definitely felt like the way I wanted to progress wasn't particularly welcomed like, "I want to do that", and they were like, "No, you're in this function and we'd like you to stay in this function". 

I've definitely had that.  Money getting in the way of making a move.  I think that slowed me down, it didn't stop me completely, but I would say, "I can't see how I can do this thing I want to do", and it stalled me for a little while.  I don't know if I've had the personal constraints thing.  I think I'm so, I don't know, maybe a bit selfish about my career that I kind of just keep going regardless and hope I get the support that I need.  But the first three I've had.  What about you?

Sarah Ellis: Definitely all of them.  I think some of them have felt harder than others.  So I do think, you know where you have a manager where it's not working, it does dominate your day.  And I think anyone listening to this who's in this right now, it's just so difficult because you can't really avoid them, and you have got to have conversations with them.  And if you just feel like you're clashing, or even it's sort of a toxic environment, I think that one feels particularly hard.  I think some of the other ones, it's hard, isn't it, when you think about personal constraints?  Because I do think, you know, we've both had kids, you've had two of them, I've only had one, but I think when you do have kids it does change your relationship with work because inevitably it has to.  And I don't really like labelling my kid as a constraint but it is, it's a new factor.

Helen Tupper: It's a new consideration.

Sarah Ellis: It's a new consideration, and I mean if you wanted to be really harsh about it, you can see in things like gender pay gap data, when women have kids, what happens to pay?  So, you're like, "Well, it certainly affects people's pay progression", I think that's relatively factual.  But equally, there's things like, okay, well maybe I wanted to progress into a role where I was going to be traveling a lot.  And then suddenly you think, "Well, okay, but then there's a tension with doing that and then having a kid".

Helen Tupper: Yeah, that's true, that's definitely true.  I've definitely seen -- that's definitely in my mind now, where you kind of have this conflict between, like say for example, in order to scale Squiggly Careers, we want to be where people are.  Sometimes that's virtual, sometimes that's in person.  But every time I have one of those opportunities I'm like, "But that means that in order to do that, I don't see my children", and it definitely is a consideration.  Like you say, I don't see it as a constraint, but it is a, yeah, it's a consideration that is always in the mind.

Sarah Ellis: So, I think when you're in the midst of this obstacle, when you're experiencing it, naturally you feel more pessimistic than optimistic.  We find these three Ps of pessimism useful as a way of identifying what is getting in your way from a mindset perspective.  And we're not trying to beat ourselves up here.  I think you're just trying to recognise, "This is hard and what am I saying to myself in this moment?"  So, the three Ps are Personal, which sounds like, "This is all my fault", where this is like you're blaming yourself. 

So, maybe actually with your manager that's difficult, you're like, "Oh, this is all because I've not found a good way to work with them.  This is my fault for this".  Or, "I'm not progressing because when I went for that promotion, I didn't get it and it's because I'm not good enough".  So, "This is about me and this is my problem". The second P is Pervasive. 

So, this is where it feels like, "My life".  This is where one obstacle ends up feeling like it sort of bleeds into everything else in your day.  So, you might think, "Oh, well my relationship with my manager is difficult and do you know what, nothing is going well at work", and we sort of catastrophise, often get a bit dramatic.  And we find it difficult to see anything in our weeks, probably at work and often at home as well, that's going well.  We're just like, "Nothing's going well for me at the moment".

Then, the final P is Permanent.  So, this sounds like, "My future".  And that's where I think you feel like you're in a tunnel but you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel.  So you're like, "Well, I'm in a company where I can't progress and this just feels like my reality forever, and I can't see a different way".  And I think you feel very zoomed in and very in the dark about like, "How will this ever change?"  And again, all these things feel quite helpless, but I think if you are experiencing an obstacle right now, maybe just notice which of those obstacles feels most familiar for you.  Because I have definitely had moments where, I think when my obstacles are less serious, I go with the pervasive one. 

I sort of get a bit dramatic, I'm like, "It's all going wrong, it's a bit of a disaster", but it's actually not that serious.  I think I use it as a bit of a coping mechanism. I think with my biggest obstacles, the times I have found the hardest, it has been the permanence like, "If this is my reality now, I really don't want that to be true, but I can't see my way out of this, I can't understand how I'm going to make things different", and I found that very, very hard.  Funny enough, I don't really blame myself that often!

Helen Tupper: Mine's different.  I think earlier in my career, I did used to blame myself and it meant that I put all the energy in the wrong place, like into changing me.

Sarah Ellis: Right, yeah.

Helen Tupper: So if I think about, I remember I didn't have a very good relationship with my manager and I was like, "Oh God, that's because I'm not very good, I'm not dealing with this situation very well", or actually when I managed somebody and I had a bit of friction with someone that managed me, and I was like, "I'll try a different approach because it's my contribution to the situation".  And it wasn't until I sat down with a coach and I brought this problem for like the third time to them, they're like, "Helen, maybe it's just not about you", and I'm like, "Oh, interesting".  So, I think I used to do that and I don't do that now, I think I'd probably do the pervasive one, so like a bit of a rant, like I'm like, "Oh God, everything's going wrong at the moment", and again, that's a bit defeatist and a bit dismissive of what I can take control of. 

But I think I don't do the, "Well, everything's doomed forever, isn't it, so what's the point?"  I think I don't do that, I do the, "Oh God, I'm just having a really hard time right now", that kind of thing. So, recognising that when we're dealing with obstacles, it's really normal to kind of fall into one of those pessimism traps.  What we want to do, as well as recognise which trap is most likely to be the one that we fall into, we also want to think about what's an alternative thing, what's an action that moves us towards optimism. 

So, there are three things here, depending on which pessimism P you fall into. So, if you have that personalisation one, the one where you're going, "Oh, it's all my fault, it's all because of something I've done", what's really useful there to move you from that obstacle towards optimism is to actually get a bit of perspective.  So, I mentioned that I used to do that and then that coach said to me, quite bluntly, I think she was probably quite bored of me bringing this to all of our conversations, like, "Helen, what if this isn't all about you?"  And I was like, "Oh, interesting question".  And it did make me think about somebody else's experience of that situation. 

But what you can do is more directly ask.  So, I could say to Sarah, "Oh, I'm feeling like I'm getting this all wrong or I'm feeling like this is all happening to me at the moment or this is all my fault", or whatever it is, I could say to Sarah, "What's your experience of this situation [or] what's your perspective on how I'm contributing towards it?"  Basically get somebody else's opinion or reflection on what you are experiencing.  And often, that can challenge the story you might be saying to yourself.  So, the first swap is moving from that personalisation to getting a better perspective. The second one is where you're making it really pervasive. 

So, that's the one that I said, you know, I fall into this one, "Everything is going wrong at the moment, it's an absolute disaster".  What's really useful for there is to think about, well, what is actually working well?  We often talk in our sessions about this is sort of the domino effect.  So, you have got all your dominoes standing, right?  Each domino is something going on in your world of work at the moment, or even your world outside of work at the moment.  And what happens when you make it pervasive is you knock all your dominoes down.  So, this thing has gone wrong and all the dominoes have gone down, it's a complete disaster, end of the domino game.  What we want to do is think really intentionally about what dominoes are still standing.  So, you want to think about, "Okay, what are all the things that I am doing at the moment that I'm involved in?" 

So, what are all the projects?  Who are the people that I'm working with?  What are the things that I'm doing that I may be proud and excited of outside of work?  And you really want to think about what dominoes are still standing, what's working really well at the moment. Then, what it helps you to see is, yes, one domino might have fallen down, you might have a rubbish manager, that company might have put a freeze on internal pay or progression, or whatever it is, a domino might be down at the moment, but it isn't a complete disaster because actually lots of your dominoes are still standing, there's still a lot working well in your world, you just have to stop to see that.  And then the last one is where you make it really permanent.  So, "My career is completely doomed and it's never going to be the same because of this situation right now". 

The solution here is to do a little bit of mental time travel.  So, first of all you want to look back to a time before, when you have gone through something hard, and think about well how did I go through that?  What action did I take?  What was perhaps better because of it?  Like, did you build some better relationships; did you have a bit more confidence in having difficult conversations?  So, that helps you to go, "Do you know what, I've done hard things before and I can do this again and it isn't a disaster forever". Then, you also want to look forward.  So, "What is something that you're excited about?"  So, just zoom out of the situation you're in right now.  What is something positive?  What is something that you want for yourself in the future?  We talked in our last podcast about ambition, attaching yourself to an ambition.  Something that you are excited about for your future can sometimes give you that pull out of the problematic situation that you might be finding yourself in right now.

Sarah Ellis: And the reason that we care about this is when we are more optimistic, we're better at three things: spotting opportunities, solving problems, and asking for help.  And if you go back to these common career obstacles, you know, boss that feels like a blocker, we need to spot opportunities probably outside of what we're doing today.  We've got to think, we've got to have our problem-solving, our kind of creative-thinking mindset ready to go.  And unless we have set ourselves up with a useful mindset here, we're probably just going to stay in the obstacle, because these obstacles will at times feel really, really tough.  And so, it's never an easy thing to move past these obstacles. 

So, I feel like this first bit is like, you've got to set yourself up for success, you've got to start to feel a bit more in control and a bit better just for yourself, and then you go, "Right, what am I now going to actually do? So, our second idea for action is, find another way.  So, I'm feeling a bit more optimistic, just a tad more, it's never going to be really dramatic. 

And this is where we sort of recognise and acknowledge the obstacle and just go, "Okay, fine, I'm going to find another way".  I think sometimes we can persevere for too long, almost pushing against something that we can't change or control.  So, if your company has a recruitment freeze, if they're not going to pay you more money, if you have got a kid, if your manager's really tough to work for, those things are going to stay the same, at least for a little while, they aren't going anywhere.  And I almost feel like once you go, "Okay, well that is the reality, that is happening, I have got a rubbish boss.  Okay, I'm going to find another way.  I'm going to find another way of having useful career conversations, of getting some advice about my progression". 

Okay, and the other way is, well that doesn't have to be a manager, that could be a peer that you get on really well with who's now working in a different area, that could be a mentor of any sort. If you're thinking, "Okay there's just no progression here, I can't move up, sideways, I just can't move anywhere, so I feel very stuck in the role that I'm in", you go, okay, well maybe if there is no movement in your company at the moment, you're not going to move, you could find another way by thinking, "Well, what can I start in the role that I do?" 

So, maybe that's about starting a project, maybe that's volunteering for something you've not done before in the context of what you do today.  Or maybe you go, "I've got to look outside, I've got to look sort of maybe more in my industry or in my area of expertise that I'm really interested in.  So, if you were maybe a copywriter in marketing, maybe you think, "Oh, it's less about marketing, but I'm really interested in copywriting.  I'm really interested in writing and writers generally.  So, actually, I'm going to look for some progression by spending more time with people who do different kinds of writing in different kinds of community".

Helen Tupper: And we were talking about the money-getting-in-the-way blocker and just how sometimes, that can feel so impossible to influence and so important to what you want to do.  And we were thinking about, well how have we found another way when that has been a reality?  So, if I think about money getting in the way, that has stopped me doing Amazing If sooner because I was paid a corporate salary and Amazing If didn't have that reliability; or money getting in the way of my learning. 

I remember there were things that I wanted to learn, like formal learning programmes that I wanted to do, and I couldn't afford it, and there wasn't a ready-made company programme to pay for it either.  And so, the way that I found another way with that, so let's think about my example of moving to Amazing If, I didn't do it straight away, so we kind of built up a fund, so that took longer.  I feel like sometimes, there's a bit of a compromise in this kind of stuff, a bit of if you want to overcome an obstacle by finding another way, that doesn't necessarily mean it might happen exactly how you think in your head. Overcoming an obstacle overnight I think is really, really hard. 

So, I do think you may be -- compromising feels a bit difficult, but I do think a bit of patience, a bit of creativity.  So, to the Amazing If example, a couple of things that we did there.  So, we started it as a side project, so I still got to do the thing I wanted to do, still experiencing it, and we saved some money.  So, that meant that we had some money to do it.  And I also talked about options.  So, with my manager about, well if this is what I wanted to do, how could we do it?  And between the saving money and getting some experience and having some options, I was actually able to find another way.  So, it did take a bit longer, but I was able to make that move after doing that.

If I think about the learning thing, that's actually a bit of a compromise as well.  So, in my ideal world, my company was going to pay for me to do my MBA, my company was going to pay for me to do all these courses I wanted to do.  That never actually happened in that way.  I never unlocked 100% company funding for any of the programmes that I did. 

So, I did a marketing director's programme at Cranfield, I did my MBA.  I mean, I started two, so one I didn't complete and the second one I did complete my MBA.  But all of those things were part-funded by different places.  So, I got part scholarship, I stuck a bit of my own savings in and then I asked a company to contribute to it. 

So, I think with some of these where money is part of the blocker, I think you probably do have to be a bit creative and that might mean it takes a bit longer, money's coming from more than one place, for example.  Another thing that I had to do was, I had to sign to stay for longer.  So, there might be some little compromises that you have to make, but I think you have to be open to some other alternatives, rather than the immediate way that you think it might happen. The last one we talked about, you know, your personal situation or personal constraints might feel like it's stopping the thing you want to do with your development, it could be caring or children that we talked about, one of the things that Sarah and I thought is quite useful to do here is to do a bit of peer prototyping. 

So, find somebody who is experiencing a similar situation or kind of life -- again, I feel really uncomfortable with this word "constraint", but consideration, I think we got to, life consideration to you, and say, "If I want to do this, then how else could I do this?  If me achieving this isn't possible right now, and this is why it matters to me, then how else do you think I could achieve the things that are important to me?"

So, if I said to Sarah, for example, "I really want to become a manager in a global business, that feels really important to me, but I can't see how I can do that right now. 

How else do you think that I could do that?"  Sarah might come up with, "Well, if you can't be a manager right now, maybe you could be a mentor.  Or, if you can't have a global role right now, maybe you could do some kind of virtual programmes where it's not about travelling to those places, but you've still got that exposure to different companies and cultures", for example.  The point of peer prototyping, particularly with somebody who is familiar with your situation, is they might be able to see solutions that you can't see for yourself.

Sarah Ellis: It's interesting, actually.  I was just thinking as you were describing that, I spoke to somebody recently where they described not living in London as their personal constraint. 

So, they had moved up to Scotland, they're in creative industries, and they actually felt like their geography and their location was causing a constraint, whilst at the same time absolutely acknowledging that was where they wanted to live.  So, they weren't going, "I want to move to London", it was just more, "Oh, but this is where I want to be, but I really want to progress and I feel like that's stopping me". 

And so actually, her talking to me about that, what was interesting is sometimes, and like now you and I both live relatively close to London, and I actually lived in London for quite a long time, but I  talked to her about the fact that I didn't live in London for a really large portion of my career.  So, at least we could do a bit of peer prototyping and I felt like my suggestions were more credible because I had done that.

But then what was even more credible, because also she was a lot younger than me, and in quite a different world, I then connected her with somebody who I knew would do an even better job of that peer prototyping, who would sort of challenge her a bit on, "Oh, but there are these virtual creative communities, there are these kind of cool spaces that you can hang out, where actually loads of people have moved since the pandemic, and actually lots of people have relocated.  So, those sort of communities are springing up". 

But sometimes you've almost decided like, "Where I live is getting in my way".  And I could see as I was describing it, and then the person that she was going to talk to was talking about it, she was like, "Oh, actually, there's another way", like that's another way, "there is another way of me looking at this because I don't want to change my geography, but I do want to progress". You're kind of getting into that "and" agility that we've talked about before here, you're trying to kind of get to the "and", aren't you?  Like, "It is okay to live where I want to live 'and' want to progress.  I perhaps have just got to find another way because I am not turning up to a drinks event in central London on a Monday night". 

Or like I've heard, probably particularly women, but I guess anyone on parental leave, getting a bit frustrated like, "Well, I just can't come to these events because I've got no one to look after my kids, I've got no [maybe] family nearby", which actually both you and I have been in that situation.  You've got a very young kid, you've got you and your partner and you're like, "And that's sort of it".  And so, you just don't have that flexibility to connect in the way that perhaps you're used to.  So again you go, "I've got to find another way".

Helen Tupper: Side note on your connection to that person in Scotland, I was watching a panel recently.  There was an amazing guy from Scotland who's setting up, founder of a brilliant creative agency, super-confident, and his perspective was like, "Actually, there aren't that many of us doing this here, so I've got (a) I'm brilliant..." he was really confident, and I was like, "Wow, you're great", and then, "(b) I'm going to stand out".  So, worth me connecting your person to that person!

Sarah Ellis: Yes, let's do that!  I mean, bless her.  This person who chatted to me, I can't remember what it was through.  Oh, it was through actually a mentoring programme that I volunteer for.  She's not going to know what's hit her.  She'd be like, "Oh, didn't really expect to be used as an example on the podcast!"  Obviously we've kept her anonymous, but equally I did manage to connect her to someone who she's been in her dream company.  She was like, "You know this person?" and it was like a really random example where I was like, "I do, because of actually my sister" because my sister went to university with her and I was like, "This is really weird".

Helen Tupper: I do think it's funny, don't ever share a career idea or a challenge with us if you don't want to take action, because we're all about it!

Sarah Ellis: "What about this?  What about that?"

Helen Tupper: So, our third and final idea for action is all about regaining control and energy.  So, if you just recap what we talked about, we talked about first of all, having the optimism, knowing this stuff is hard, but kind of having that mindset that, "I don't have to be stuck in this situation".  The second is, I think maybe kind of creating a bit of momentum so that, "I'm going to find another way, I'm going to find another way around this".  And I think the third one is probably a bit about motivation.  So, it's about, "How do I kind of stay energised in something that it does feel tough, it does feel hard".  And Sarah and I were talking about this.  We did have a different reflection on how we stay motivated in these challenges!  Mine was, I mean --

Sarah Ellis: I mean, you described it as aggressive, Helen, let's face it!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I have like an aggressive response to situations where people say that I can't do something, and Sarah has perhaps a more maybe empathetic response.  So, we'll do both because people are different and you might sit with stuff.  Just hold the word "aggressive" lightly, because I don't think it's aggressive.  I don't think it's aggressive, let me know!  But my point is, if I've got a bit of a blocker, it just makes me more --

Sarah Ellis: It just spurs you on, doesn't it?

Helen Tupper: It just spurs me on.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it does, I see it.

Helen Tupper: So, if I've got a bad boss, I'm like, "Right!  You watch me!"  So, the sort of things that I would do so that I stay motivated in a situation where I feel like something or someone has tried to take my control away, I think this links to my value of freedom, like, you take my freedom away and watch me get it back!  I think, honestly, I honestly think this is me.  So, things that I would do, I'd be like, "Well, first of all, you can't stop me learning.  I feel like I can read a book, I can listen to a podcast, I can sign up for so much learning.  

You can't stop me doing that and that's going to make me feel like I'm still in control of my development".  Also, I'd be like, "This situation will not stop me building my relationships".  So, I can connect with someone outside of this company, for example.  I have definitely been in a situation where I felt like the people that I'm working with were, I don't know, maybe a bit negative vibes.  They were just feeling like, "Oh, where's the energy that I really want to connect to?  Where are the ideas people?  Where are the people that are excited?" 

And I've gone, "Well, they might not be here, but I can find them out there".  So, I have had, whether it's my mentors or just people in communities that aren't necessarily part of my company, I've sort of reconnected with those people or sought out new connections that have helped me not feel so affected by what I might be experiencing within an organisation or a situation. Then the last thing I would say is, create something.  That's what I do.  If I feel like -- Sarah probably knows that I do this, because if we're working on a project and we're debating it a bit, and maybe it is going a bit slower, it's a bit slower than I want to, or it's a bit more debate-y, I'll just be like, "All right, well while we're debating this, I'm just going to go create something else", and I will just do it because I feel like, well, that just gives me back a bit of control.  It makes me feel good about what I'm doing and what I can do when I feel like maybe what I want to do is just stalling a little bit.  So, call it aggressive if you want.  I don't know if it is aggressive but for me, if I feel like I can't do the things that I want to do for whatever situation, I know that I can always learn, connect and create, and I go to that and that gives me that sort of motivation to keep going through the hard stuff.

Sarah Ellis: And to be clear, you self-described this as aggressive, so actually that wasn't me!  I don't think it's aggressive.  I think my challenge was, it's very action-focused and it's very doer, and I think there are moments where you have these common career obstacles where you're not ready for that yet, it's too hard, it's too tough.  And I think I have felt this and I see it from other people where you're like, things feel so difficult.  The idea of saying to someone like, "Learn, connect, create", actually would be the opposite of motivating.  You'd be like, "Well, you're joking.  I've got this person who is ruining my work days, who's really difficult to work for [or] everything in my company feels like really difficult because all recruitment has stopped", or whatever it might be.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, massive restructure.

Sarah Ellis: Massive restructure, or we've talked about, like Helen and I have said, obviously we don't want to see our kids as constraints.  But those constraints are kind of okay, right?  There's choices around those, they're considerations.  People have much, much more serious constraints and we are very, very aware of that.  And also, we're aware that's not our kind of reality.  So, my filter on this was, if you need to, start really small.  If you are really struggling with this and really finding it hard, very, very easy and accessible things to do.  And also, what has maybe worked for me as someone with maybe more thinking and more feelings sometimes than Helen along the way --

Helen Tupper: That's so harsh!  More than that, I do have feelings, I do have thinking!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I know, you just channel it all into action.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, but I do think and I do feel.  I think it just translates into a different way.  I just want to put that out there!

Sarah Ellis: You just don't do it for very long.  One feeling and the action, let's go.

Helen Tupper: Feeling is done now!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, feelings are done now!

Sarah Ellis: So, three very small things just to finish with.  Take a one-day holiday.  It might sound like a tiny thing.  I have found this helpful and I've seen other people find this useful, a one-day holiday that is just for you.  Take it on a Monday, rather than a Friday where maybe you're exhausted by the week.  Maybe do it on a Monday after your weekend, and so you just go, "I'm not starting this week by being at work, I'm starting this week for me in my own way with some space, and I'm just going to go and do something for me".  

Maybe that's a massive walk, but probably something by yourself for at least a bit where you're thinking something through, maybe you're meeting up with friends at some point during the day.  I think a one-day holiday can go quite far in terms of just helping reboot your energy, maybe for then some of the other actions that we have talked about.  It can give you just a bit of space and clarity.

Second thing, in these moments I think sometimes you do just need someone to really listen.  Who is the most supportive person that you know?  Pick the right person and just really think about who's not going to have judgment; who is just really going to listen to me and give me quite a lot of space to share?  I actually don't think there are that many people who I can think of who are incredible listeners, but there are some, like both of my sisters actually, but particularly one of my sisters who does work for Samaritans where she's actually training to be a professional listener this summer.  She is a very good listener and then she works hard to be even better at it.  And I just notice she will never interrupt, she stays very present, she sort of creates a space to share.  And so who is that person? I also have seen this, I would say, in some WhatsApp communities.  So, you know sometimes you feel like, "Oh, this has to be like a one-to-one chat"? 

Maybe that feels a bit too intense.  I've seen people share, "I'm having a really hard time with making this happen [or] balancing work and the fact that I've just moved countries", or something, and someone shares it in WhatsApp.  And actually, what they have got in return, some people suggest solutions, but actually what they've got back from people in messages is just a lot of support. 

And I'm like, "Oh, that person must feel a lot better having shared that".  I actually saw it this week, someone shared that they are restarting a business, that they had 18 months off due to very complicated obstacles.  And so she just shared like, "I've taken that time, I'm now coming back" and talked a bit about some of these obstacles.  And really all everyone did was just like, "Oh, brilliant, full of admiration, well done".  So, she's just got an outpouring of support.  So, who's your most supportive person or people? 

Spend some time with them. Then, maybe finish your days as like an everyday activity with, "What was good about today?"  So, this is not, you know, we will sometimes talk about very small successes, wins of the week, but I think when you're in some of these obstacles, that just doesn't help you.  You're just not in the right mindset to be like, "Oh yes, these very small successes".  You just need to go for, "What was good about today?"  And I do think there is always something good about most days, even in those toughest times.  If I think about some of my biggest obstacles, I think there was something good about today and it's all of your day.  Maybe it was at home rather than at work, but there is something good that can just give you that boost.  So, two very different approaches there, I would say, to maybe making progress.

Helen Tupper: Well, I already know, not that I'm in a bit of an obstacle situation at the moment, but what was good about my day today is, well, Sarah and I are recording this in person and it feels quite nice to --

Sarah Ellis: I can wave at her.

Helen Tupper: Oh, a little wave.  You can't see, everybody, if we ever recorded this podcast, you'd be able to see it, but...

Sarah Ellis: You have made me record it for something exciting that's coming!

Helen Tupper: Something exciting that's coming!  Is that the second teaser of this episode?

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yes. Helen Tupper: Some kind of video thing is coming!  Sign up for PodMail!

Sarah Ellis: Yes, much to Helen's joy!

Helen Tupper: So actually, I made Sarah record this something for this thing that is coming, everybody and I think at the end of the day, you were like, "That wasn't so bad".  I was like, "That's an absolute win".  Sarah saying, "That wasn't so bad", to me is brilliant!  So, if you are going through a bit of a knotty moment at the moment and you feel like there's an obstacle that you are experiencing, we hope that this can give you a little bit of support because hopefully you can feel that you're not alone with it, like these obstacles are very normal, we're all experiencing them, so you're definitely not the only one who's got an obstacle.  But also, hopefully you can feel like there is something that you can do about it. 

This doesn't have to be a situation that you feel really stuck in, whether it is moving to that mindset point or finding a way that you can take action or finding a bit of motivation to keep going.  And hopefully we've given you some ideas that you feel like you can take away.  And we'll summarise all that in the PodSheet as well so that you can maybe print it off and work your way through it.

Sarah Ellis: And you can find all of the other episodes of the podcast on amazingif.com.  And you can email us if you've got any questions, or if you just need a bit of support, at helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  But that's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.