How to make work happier

Helen Tupper: Hi everyone, it's Helen Tupper from the Squiggly Careers podcast, I hope you're well.  Today, I'm not going to be joined by Sarah because this is another of our Ask the Expert episodes where I'm going to be talking to Mo Gawdat on the topic of happiness.  If you're not familiar with Mo's work, let me tell you just a little bit about who he is, what he's done and what he's doing now before we get into our conversation on happiness. 

Mo's career has really largely been as an engineer; he's worked for lots of different tech companies, so he's worked for IBM, he's worked for Microsoft and he's also worked for Google where he led Google X, which I think is such an exciting part, it's like an innovation part of Google.  Despite having such an amazing career, to be honest, some of the things that he's done, what he started to realise is that he was becoming more and more disillusioned with his career and that success, as we often hear, success didn't also equal happiness. 

At the same time as he was becoming more disconnected from his career, he was also experiencing personal devastation.  His son, Ali, died in 2014 and it really made Mo question what it meant to be happy, what happiness was; and he combined his insights and his experiences from his professional career as an engineer and his own work experiences, also with some of the work that he'd been doing with Ali and his own personal experiences, to produce a book, which is called Solve for Happy: Engineer Your Path to Joy.  In that book, he used his intellect and his insights and his experiences to create an equation for happiness and really what he talks about is that happiness is a lot more predictable than a lot of people think and it is actually something that when you almost understand the component parts of happiness, we can help ourselves to be more happy. 

So that's what we dive into in the conversation together.  I had talked to Mo before this discussion; I was on his podcast and then he kindly -- his podcast is Slo Mo and he kindly agreed to come onto ours to talk more and more about happiness with us.   

In the conversation we have together, we go quite broad unhappiness, we end up talking about scales and frameworks, which I obviously loved for anyone that listens to the podcast regularly, but some things that really stuck out for me, the conversation we have around happy habits versus unhappy habits and working out what they are you. 

He also talks about the last 12 months and how he thinks that has led to what he calls the "golden age of empathy", because it's really been a levelling time in terms of everyone's experiences, I thought that was very interesting.  Then we have a conversation about managers as well and what managers can do to help create happier teams.  He raises a really interesting question around how much time are you spending hearing and helping people, which made me stop and think.  So I hope you take as much out of this conversation as I did, and I'll be back at the end to catch up with you a little bit more. 

Mo, welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast. 

Mo Gawdat: Thank you, it's been wonderful to finally do this after you came on my podcast, which was super popular, so I'm very grateful to have the chance to be with you. 

Helen Tupper: Today, we're going to talk about happiness, big topic, happiness in relation to careers and I want to start with the happiness equation that you have created in your book, Solve for Happy, and maybe just introduce people to what that equation is, just as a starting point, and why we need an equation for happiness. 

Mo Gawdat: I think I'll answer the second first!  Why do we need an equation for happiness in the modern world?  They confuse us and make things look so complicated.  If you look for a personal trainer in your neighbourhood, there will be a million of them saying, "The only way to get fit is my way!"  Truth is, the only way to get fit is to eat healthy and work out three to four times a week. 

So, one of my tasks when I try to write about happiness was to tell people it's a lot more predictable than you think it is; it's not that very complex, never manageable, elusive feeling that you'll get every now and then and you'll never figure out why.  It actually is so predictable that it follows an equation.  It actually is so predictable that like fitness, if you make it your priority and go to the happiness gym three to four times a week, you'll be happier. 

Now, the equation is your happiness is equal to or greater than the difference between the events of your life and your hopes and expectations of how life should be.  Actually, when you really apply the equation to your life, you realise that there was never a moment in your life where a specific event made you happy or unhappy.  It's that comparison between the event and how you want the event to be.   

I mean I know people get shocked when I say this, but when I set my New Year's intention for 2020, my New Year's intention was that it was going to be the year of silence and space, and so I can guarantee you lockdown didn't upset me at all.  It's like, "Wow!"  The world provided, I wanted silence and space and now I can be locked down in my own private, sort of almost like a monk retreat, I had.  I treated it that way, I was looking for a monk retreat and I received a monk retreat.  Not saying it's a wonderful thing to have COVID or a pandemic or the lockdown, but even an event like that, in comparison to how I wanted life to be, made me happy.  I wanted life to lock me down and I ended up being locked down. 

Helen Tupper: You got that.  So, events versus expectations and then thinking about that in the context of your career, when I was reading your book and I thought about that equation, I thought I think a lot of people's expectations of their career is that if they show up and work hard, they go up the ladder.   

A lot of people kind of think that's the job to be done, I work hard and if I do that, then good things come, and those good things in a traditional career look like promotions and pay rises and all those signals of success.  And if that's the expectation, my kind of hypothesis is that some people aren't happy at work because their experience is very different; their experience is not that I show up and work hard and go up the ladder, it's that I show up and work hard and other stuff happens, and that mismatch between my expectations and the actual events that I experience are sometimes where the challenge creeps in.  What are your thoughts on that? 

Mo Gawdat: So absolutely.  I mean Squiggly is my favourite word ever since we spoke.  No, but I also think that careers are not linear at all, I mean if you look at any person's career stagnant for a very long time and then whoops, it goes up or whoops, it goes down.  Sometimes your career just goes two steps down and then it goes up again and it's just like a seesaw really, it's not a linear progression at all.   

I think if the expectation, like most of us were taught if you're a superstar you get promoted every 18 months, that was my original -- IBM wasn't that fast, but when I started to join Microsoft and so on, that was my expectation and the truth is that's not necessarily true and by the way, promoted is not necessarily good.  Sometimes they don't promote you so you get upset and so you go somewhere else and when you go to somewhere else, it becomes the best career move of your life.  I think that's the first missed expectation.   

I think the second missed expectation with careers is what I called the "middle-age crisis" and that's the truth of careers that, even if your career goes incredibly well and you get promoted every 18 months and you make a tonne of money, you buy that fancy BMW and do all of that stuff, eventually more of us than not end up at a point in our life where look back and say, "So this is what I dedicated 20 years of my life to?  It's not at all what I wanted it to be.  It's not at all deserved any investment from me in the first place", and mostly, many, many of us will look back and say, "It didn't work exactly like I wanted, but it wasn't even what I wanted in the first place".  I think that's the biggest missed expectation in careers.  When that times happens you could probably fix it and many people do, but 20 years have gone by. 

I think the question really around happiness and careers is not how you're doing it, but it's more what are you doing?  What are you giving your life to?  This is at least eight hours of your day, most of your mental attention during the work week.  Are you putting that in something that you enjoy, that you love, that makes you happy; are you putting it with people that make you happy; or is it just that obsession of, I want to climb that ladder, I want to climb that ladder when it's the wrong ladder? 

Helen Tupper: So, I have a scale, as you're talking, this scale that's emerging in my head; I think in frameworks and things, Mo, so forgive me for that.  But in this scale, at one end of the scale, I'm just going to call this the "happiness scale" and then I'm going to ask you a question about it, but at one end of the scale, I have euphoria, like there's moments of, "This is amazing", and, "It's never going to get better at this", and then at the other end of the scale, I have settling where you're like, "I don't know", and you're compromising yourself and you're settling and you're just of maybe a bit stuck in where you are and you don't move.   

Then in the middle, I have contentment, which is where you say, "I'm happy; I'm happy where things are", and I feel that listening to you, the aim is not for a life full of euphoria and hedonism, because maybe you're always going to be chasing that and you're always going to be disappointed.  The aim is for a career and a life, per se, but a career full of contentment where you're like, "I'm happy, I've done a good job today, I've done good work and I am happy with the impact that I've made".  But I worry that that is a really hard line to find and that probably looks different for all of us, but I worry that some people will almost question themselves and go, "But am I settling?  Am I contented or am I settling and should I be searching for those euphoric moments as well?"  Can you see the spectrum I'm trying to create and the challenge that might exist? 

Mo Gawdat: Can we make this a little more two-dimensional than one-dimensional? 

Helen Tupper: Yes. 

Mo Gawdat: So, on one end of the X axis is depression and the other end is euphoria, let's look at the Y axis where on one end, it's totally me and on the other end it's not me, okay?  You know what, you can be very successful having a career as a belly dancer; if that's not what you like in life, what good is it to be successful?  What euphoria does that bring?  The interesting thing is that we live very unbalanced lives.   

I'll give you a very, very career-focused example.  Most of us work in big cities to make more money than we would if worked in a smaller city, so that we spend it on living in big cities.  To me, if you ask me, a lot of people when COVID and lockdown started to happen started to ask themselves, "Can I have a life that is closer to nature maybe?  Can I move to a place where my kids have a space outside?" or whatever.  In most markets around the world, the real estate prices of houses a little further from the city grew, while real estate prices inside the city started to drop a little or rental prices because the economic purchasing power, it declined. 

The question of euphoria, if you ask me, is not really euphoria and I call it the state of escape.  The simple example is, remember the days when we actually went to the office, it was very stressful and commute was horrible and so on, and then it's Friday night and what do you do?  You go to the pub, you have a couple of pints, you drown your stress into a few laughs and then you're trying to find happiness that way, okay?  Is that called happiness?  I don't think so.  It's called escape; it's basically telling your brain, "Let's not think about those things that are upsetting us, let's think about the things that we can do, gaining whatever it is that we've gained, after being upset".  What happens is you wake up on Saturday morning, hangover and the same problems, you're stressed again. 

Interestingly, however, some people go to work, they meet with wonderful people, they do something they're passionate about, they believe in it, they do it really, really well, so they don't have that Friday night problem.  They actually may go out with their colleagues, just because they're wonderful people, which is a better life.  On that state of escape, we continue much, much further so we make more money than we need by working too hard, more than we need and so what do we do?  We spend that money on a vacation for two weeks so that we can actually go back and continue to make more money than we need, and it's an interesting question. 

So in my view, euphoria, true euphoria, is for me to do exactly what I love, because if you really think about it, each of us lives 3 billion heartbeats, which normally, by the way, in the old days would translate into around 40 years of age.  Now, with advancements of technology, we live 6 billion heartbeats.  Believe it or not, between you and I now, every minute that's passed, you wasted 70 of those, right?  When you sleep you waste 70 by 60 by 8 hours a day, and all of those moments that you're stuck at work, is the majority of those heartbeats. 

The question is while it appears to be a lot of heartbeats, how are you spending every one of them?  How is now for you?  Because between you and I, if now is not amazing, why are you living it?  Then we think from a point of view of fear and lack, it's like, "Hey, but it's a job".  No, it's not, there are so many jobs out there that may pay you £100 less but make you 100 times happier.  Have you looked?  Are you aware if they exist?  Are you even aware of what Beckie has told you she really wants?  Have you ever sat down honestly and told yourself, "Maybe this is not for me.  If I had to dream, what would be for me?  I want to be X, Y and Z".  All right, go, do seven months of training or education and then apply for a job and then two years later you'll find what you love. 

Helen Tupper: Do you think if people feel like they're compromising their career at the moment because as a result of COVID, maybe the job that they were doing has changed or been taken away and due to personal circumstances, they have had to take a different job so that they can afford their rent, support their family, all those kinds of things?  Do you think they can still find happiness in those choices, even though they might feel like they've compromised their career? 

Mo Gawdat: So desperate times call for desperate measures, right?  As I said, your career is never linear, never linear.  So sometimes, you'll take a couple of steps down and sometimes you'll take a couple of steps up and it's never really just a smooth line of growth, right?  The question really is a question of awareness.  It's for you to say, "Look, this is not exactly what I want in life.  I can make my life better despite its presence, while it's available, and I can understand openly and honestly in my life that the reason I'm doing that is because I need the job".  It doesn't have to always be the most fulfilling thing on the planet, as long as I know that when opportunities arise, I will go back and do what I love.   

That kind of balance, if you want to call it wisdom in careers, is very important.  One of the most important career moves of my life was, I was in my Microsoft years and I was used to moving every 18 months, and I was doing so well and growing the business so well; and then my boss, when I went to him 12 months into a job and said, "I have 6 more months to go in this job", he said, "Can you give me another year?"  I was like, "Of course not.  Superstars, they don't do 18 months", and he said, I'll make it up for you, just give me one more year".  Best year of my life.  You know why; because I had to clean my own shit.  For the first time in my life, I actually learnt to execute businesses that actually succeed. 

Yeah, it took me a year more, but it was important as a learning opportunity for me.  It took me a year more, but a year is nothing in a career and when you really start to think about life that way, there are sometimes things we have to do, even though they're not the most amazing, but when we recognise and not lie to ourself -- I have a very dear, very wise friend who says, "We all wear masks; when you're alone take off the mask.  When you're outside, everyone on LinkedIn is a VP.  When you go back home, tell yourself, 'I'm a paper mover, that's all I do.  I shift papers, I know my title is a VP, but that's the truth; don't lie to yourself'". 

Helen Tupper: I think happiness is such a big area even though you've obviously simplified it in a really helpful way with that equation and I think it is quite a scary area, because sometimes to find happiness you have to recognise what might not make you happy and make some hard decisions as a result of it.  Are there any things that you can do on a daily basis that almost help you to make happiness practical and realistic and reach contentment and maybe euphoria, the doing what you love, but over time? 

Mo Gawdat: Yeah, so I believe the top two things to focus on are, one is to understand that happiness is the absence of unhappiness; it sounds like a very simple statement, but I'll say it again.  Happiness is the absence of unhappiness, okay?  So there is nothing you can do to be happy, which is really, really quite interesting.  The only thing you can do to be happy is to stop being unhappy.  If you stopped being unhappy what's being left behind is happy.  So your natural default state is happy. 

The first exercise you have to do is to cleanse your life.  I ask very frequently, "What's making us unhappy?"  Is this friend making us unhappy?  Is that commute making us unhappy?  Is that neighbour making us unhappy?  Is this car causing too much problem and making us unhappy?  It doesn't matter what it is, but if there is something that makes you unhappy, you need to do something about it and if you cleanse the unhappiness in your life, you suddenly realise that it's actually much easier to be happy and contented than we think it is.   

The second is to understand that it is like fitness, it really is.  So I can't promise you to always be happy.  I had amazing conversations on Slo Mo and in person, the Dalai Lama, for example, a wonderful being.  Even the Dalai Lama feels unhappy every now and again. 

When I had Matthieu Ricard, which is known to be the world's happiest man because of his brain structure after 60,000 hours of meditation in his lifetime, I asked him and he said, "Are you kidding, Mo?  I mean we're friends", so he was saying, "Are you kidding, Mo?  I get angry, I get frustrated, I get sad.  The trick is, can I train myself to have a conversation when I feel unhappy that basically allows me to go back to happiness?" and that's a skill.   

When you work out your muscles, your muscles become stronger, they can become visibly bigger, you're toned, you're fit.  The problem with happiness is it's inside our brains, it's neuroplasticity, so the muscles of happiness need to be worked out.  You can watch a video, you can read a book, you can listen to a podcast, you can be with people that are happy in nature or observe them; all of that is a muscle. 

If you go to the gym and lift weights all the time, you're going to look like a triangle, you can see it visibly.  If you go and squat all the time, you're going to look like a pear.  The problem is, the habits that we do that make us unhappy, we don't notice them.  We watch the BBC every single morning to upset ourselves.  We search for horror movies to create nightmares in our nights.  We spend time watching violence and then we wonder why the world is so violent.   

The trick is with neuroplasticity is it is so creepy, it creeps, you don't know what you're developing, but if you're watching news every day, you're developing a very strong muscle that's called, "the world is unsafe".  You're developing a very strong muscle that says everything is wrong; no one is to be trusted.  How can you be happy with those muscles?  Not because the world has changed by the way from day-to-day, as you kept watching; it was the same world.   

The thing is you trained yourself to look for the things that make you unhappy.  You can train another muscle.  Before I sleep every night I watch a comedy; Michael McIntyre half an hour before I sleep.  I don't actually remember the last time I had a nightmare, I swear to you that's true.  I don't remember the last time I had a disturbing dream.  It's a different muscle and you can train it.  You can train it at work in responses to people who annoy you; you can train it with your lover or with your boyfriend or girlfriend or family in terms of how do you handle those situations.  Invest an hour a day, three to four times a week, like we do in the gym; but before you do that, like we do with fitness, make happiness your priority. 

So, if you are given two choices, one job that gives you £100 more and the other that makes you happier, choose the one that makes you happier.  We humans are very good at realising what we prioritise. 

Helen Tupper: Can I ask one more question about managers because we focus so much on the individual, how they talk to their brain and how they reflect; if I'm a manager, and many people listening will be, and I think I want to help the people in my team be happy, is there anything that managers can do to support happier people within teams and thus create happier teams? 

Mo Gawdat: Two concepts.  One is from the days when we used to not be locked down and one from the days of the lockdown.  Remember when we used to not be locked down and we were travelling around the world like maniacs and burning fuel that will end our planet; do you remember those days, right?  When you got on a plane, the first thing that they said before they started burning fuel to destroy our planet was, "Attend to yourself first before you help others", remember that?  Simple advice; put your mask on first so that you don't suffocate before you put the mask on a child or someone else.  Interesting advice. 

If you want to make anyone happy, be happy, it's really as simple as that.  Find out how to stop being grumpy.  If you stop being grumpy, I can guarantee you 90% of the reason why your people are unhappy will go away.  Of course, for the people who are working for a grumpy manager, the reason they are a manager is because they are annoying like hell.  So anyway, let's just live with that. 

The other side of it, of course, is today, in lockdown.  I will say openly, no event in my lifetime has ever unified humanity as what we're going through and it's quite interesting because I call it the "golden age of empathy".  So what we have now in a hypermasculine, sadly work-driven environment, we have prioritised our masculine brain, we have prioritised linear thinking, doing an achievement, prioritised strengths and competitiveness and all of those weird traits and we stopped in the work environment, we downplayed feminine traits such as empathy.   

By the way, other traits are incredible; creativity, intuition, empathy, inclusion, all of those are all amazing traits that are on the feminine side that we actually don't prioritise at all at work and we should, but that one trait that triggers all of them is empathy.  It's that I'm not a single being against the rest of the world.  It is I feel what others are feeling; I'm included as one of them. 

In the times of lockdown, for some amazing reason, empathy became a natural state of being because you know what; empathy is feeling that others feel.  So you wake up every morning and you feel lonely, I guarantee you most of your friends are feeling the same way.  You get on a Zoom call and you feel it's more difficult than face-to-face, everyone on the call feels the same way.  You actually now naturally feel what everyone else is feeling. 

Now the problem with empathy is that if you're empathetic in a negative environment, it kills you, it really drains you, because it's negative after negative after negative, and what I'm suggesting for people is turn empathy into compassion.  Compassion interestingly is the masculine side of empathy.  It's taking action based on your empathy.  It's to refuse to have someone feeling negative without doing something about it.   

So, if you turn your empathy into compassion, as a manager, suddenly, you are no longer waking up every morning and saying, "I am alone; I am stressed.  I am facing difficulties on Zoom and working extra hours and my people are annoying me", instead you will say, "Every one of my team is going through this; can I make it easier for them?  Can I make it easier with a joke?  Can I make it easier by making the meetings shorter?  Can I make it easier by acknowledging that some of us are carrying little children and some of us are maybe locked down in a small place, or whatever that is?" 

When you start to get that into your mode of operation that I am not a slave driver who is supposed to make those people build the pyramid, I'm an enabler that would allow those people to invent the iPhone; when you see it that way and you see your role as a leader, to say, "I believe in a vision and I want us to get there; my job is to remove the obstacles while your job is to actually get the things done", then we're done.   

When I hired anyone, I hired very senior people and I had managers of managers of managers reporting to me.  When I hired those people, the first meeting we had was the most important but easiest meeting ever; it was the meeting of truth.  I sat them down and I said, "I don't do things, it's not my job to do anything.  You are my job.  I will care for you; you will care about the business", not in an arrogant way, that's the truth.  My responsibility was not to develop a spreadsheet anymore, my responsibility was not to go and sell anymore, there was someone in my team that I trusted to do that.  If I didn't help them do their job, why would I need them in the first place? 

Helen Tupper: It's an interesting question I think for a manager to reflect on, how much time am I spending hearing what's going on with people and how much time am I spending helping people to do their job in a way that works for them?  I think if I reflect on my time as a manager, if I'd looked at what percentage of my time was I hearing, ie listening, and what percentage of my time was I directly helping people to do their job? 

So, a final question for you, I sometimes wonder whether this is the hardest question of any ones we ask, and it can be related to happiness or it can just be something else that's helped you, but we always ask our guests for their best piece of career advice and so, if you were going to share something with our audience, what would your best piece of career advice be, Mo? 

Mo Gawdat: Work for the universe so that the universe helps you out, simple as that.  I don't know if you believe in that, but I have no scientific proof of that.  Most of my work and writing and speaking and so on has equations and quantum physics and theory of relativity to prove things like death and so on.  I realised somehow that karma is real, that what you put out in the world comes back to you in multiple thoughts.  Somehow, if you work against life, life resists you and you can be very powerful and you can be very, very capable and still win, but it takes a lot of effort.  If you work for life, life assists you; and when life assists you, it makes a mega difference to how far you go. 

I learnt this the hard way.  I was a very good salesman, all of my life, I have never missed a target.  I had a deal after the earthquake in Egypt 1992 where I sold probably half of -- I think it was $4.4 million dollars to a place called the Educational Buildings Organisation.  It was the organisation set up by the government to actually rebuild the schools that collapsed after the earthquake.  They asked for a GIS system and AutoCAD, sort of like an engineering, drafting system and a database system and so on and so forth.  

I was at IBM at the time, very good salesman, so I sold them something called the Application Engineering Series, which I think was the only copy sold worldwide, I sold them a tonne of personal computers with OS/2, if you remember OS/2?  IBM was surprised, why would anyone buy that?  I sold them really a lot of things that didn't work.  I'm a good salesman, I finished my deal and then I disappeared. 

A couple of months later, I started to realise how unreal making those things is going to be, work is going to be, that they were not going to work.  We hadn't delivered the hardware yet, but I realised AES doesn't have Arabic, the GIS is not going to integrate with it, they asked for 100 systems, it was not going to do the database integration with the other things and OS/2 was never going to work.  I walked into the Minister of Education's office; I waited actually outside from 9.00am until 6.00pm when he let me in.  Then I walked in at 6.00pm and I said, "Sir, I think you should cancel my order", and he said, "What?"  I said, "I think you should cancel my order.  We sold you $4.4 million; I think those two components will work really well, the rest I suggest you can --".  I said, "I actually think you should get the database from Oracle, the GIS systems from Sun, but it's up to you really.  All I want you to do is cancel my order and get something that will work", and it was crazy to do that. 

I went back to my manager, IBM was very supportive, a very ethical organisation in that sense.  They said, "You did the right thing, we don't want to sell something that didn't work".  He cancelled the order and then two weeks later he called me and said, "I have a requirement for a specific computer system, will your technology work?"  I said, "Let me look at it", came back the next day, I said, "This, this, this will work; that and that I can't serve you with.  I suggest you get this from this and that from that vendor", and he gave me a direct order of $16 million and kept giving me direct orders for as long as I stayed at IBM, simply because I did the right thing. 

Somehow, living with the fact that I was going to hold the construction of all Egyptian schools back highlighted to me that I was actually supposed to work, not to finish my quota; I was supposed to work so that what I sell makes the world a better place and you'll tell me, "Oh, but hold on, I'm a hairdresser, how does this apply?"  It applies fully.  If you're working to make the money from the lady that walked in, you're fighting against life because the lady wants to be happy with her cut before she pays you the money.  If you actually believe in your heart that you're going to make that person that came into your shop, whatever that is, a better off person as they walk out, I promise you, the world itself will conspire to help you.  I know it's weird advice, but I found that to make my life so much easier over the years. 

Helen Tupper: Thank you for listening to the conversation that I had with Mo.  I hope you found it insightful.  One of the quotes that will definitely stick with me from the conversation is that happiness is the absence of unhappiness.  Cleanse your life of what makes you unhappy and it's much easier to be contented.  It really made me stop and think about focusing on what makes you unhappy rather than always on this quest for happiness.  Would really love to know what this conversation made you think and how it made you feel.   

Please do email us and let us know.  You can do that at helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com or if it's easier and quicker and for you, we're pretty responsive on Instagram, that's just @amazingif.  And next week, Sarah and I are back together; we're going to be talking about how to be a meaningful mentor.  Mentoring is a topic that we covered almost 200 episodes ago, so back on episode 18.  Then we talked about how to find a mentor, so really, this is the other side of the conversation that's like if you've been found, this is how you can be a meaningful mentor.  So really looking forward to talking to Sarah about that and hope you'll join the conversation with us then.   

As ever, if you enjoy the podcast, please do rate, review and subscribe; it really makes a difference to our ability to reach and help other people with their careers, so that would be a brilliant thing to help us to do.  But otherwise, we'll leave you to your week and we'll be back talking with you very soon.  Bye-bye everyone.