How to make the most of your 121s

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:35: Get your podcast topic requests in

00:03:27: The why, who, when, what…

00:03:50: … the why

00:05:57: … adding the where 

00:08:08: … the who

00:10:28: … the when

00:15:46: … the what - to discuss

00:16:42: … the what - to decide

00:18:18: … the what - to do

00:21:49: … the what - don't overload your conversation

00:23:49: Action 1: model your manager

00:28:12: Action 2: know your need

00:31:21: Action 3: start with a win and why

00:34:52: Questions for managers to ask

00:36:28: Final thoughts  

Interview Transcription 

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we talk about a different topic to do with work and how to navigate the ups and the downs of our increasingly Squiggly Careers with that little bit more confidence and control. 

Helen Tupper: Before we get started on this week's topic, we just wanted to say a little something about our new book coming out, You Coach You, which you probably can't miss if you follow us on Instagram, or listen to the podcast regularly. 

So, it comes out on 13 January, and if you are thinking about buying You Coach You, which really is a book designed to be a big of a go-to guide for overcoming career challenges and conundrums, your first place that you go to when you want to be able to help yourself, if that sounds like something that you think you might need, we would really appreciate you pre-ordering the book.  You might hear authors talk about pre-ordering and wonder, "Why is that so important?"  The reason it's important is it helps us to get the book out into the world really quickly, because it means it shows up in Amazon lists and it gets featured, and people start sharing it, and it helps you to make quite a lot of quick progress with the book, which is really important given how many books are published, and also how many books come out in January.  So, if you are thinking about buying it, if you think it would be helpful, we would massively appreciate you pre-ordering it from wherever you get your books. 

Sarah Ellis: And I think through most places when you pre-order, you don't actually pay until the book arrives. 

Helen Tupper: That's true. 

Sarah Ellis: And I think that's part of the problem, isn't it, with pre-ordering?  I know that I was even talking to someone last week who has listened to the podcast every week for three years and she was like, "Oh, no, I'm definitely going to buy it, but I'll just buy it so I can get it the next day", because we get so used to that instant gratification, I think, with books.  Then, when I explained to her, "It really helps us though if you could pre-order, but don't worry, you don't have to pay, and then you'll still get it super quickly", and she was like, "Oh, okay", and then I literally obviously made her do it right there and then as I was watching!  She was like, "I thought this was a relaxed coffee!"  I was, "Well, it was, but then you just told me you haven't pre-ordered the book.  I feel like that might be my sales strategy, just to go round everywhere in the UK and just be, "Oh, could you just order it for me?  

Click 'Buy now', thank you!"  But thank you, because we know lots of people already have, but we do really appreciate it.  So, today's topic, we're going to talk about one-to-ones.  So, very much from the perspective of you having a one-to-one with your manager, but we also know that lots of you will be managers as well.  So, we are going to finish the episode with some useful questions for managers to ask as part of one-to-ones, but really our focus for today is you having a one-to-one with your manager, how to prepare for them, how to make the most of them, how to make sure those conversations are just really useful for you. 

Helen Tupper: I feel like we need a jingle here, Sarah, because this was a jingle, "Listen and request", jingle! 

Sarah Ellis: I didn't know where you were going with that then!  I was like, "Is she going to start singing?" 

Helen Tupper: Well, maybe we need a little tune for a listener request, because we got this on Instagram; and actually, it's really helpful, because Sarah and I are sometimes like, "What feels really relevant for people right now as a topic?" and I think just as we were asking ourselves that question, someone messaged us saying, "It would be really helpful if you could cover one-to-ones".  So, we are, and we'll take more requests. 

Sarah Ellis: Well also, I was adamant that we'd done it.  So, I was looking back at it, I was doing searches, I made you triple check, because I was like, "We'll have definitely done this topic" and we haven't, so it was a really good suggestion.  So, please keep all of your suggestions coming, because even if we can't do a podcast on them, sometimes there's other resources we can create, sometimes there are things that we know from other people, so I love getting those requests; I always find them really useful.  So, one-to-ones, we thought we'd start with some of the basics, so just some useful things to think about as part of one-to-ones, and then we're going to talk about three more specific ideas for action that we think might help you with your one-to-ones. 

So, the first thing is think a bit about the why, the who, the when and the what.  So, I'm going to do the why, the who and the when, and then Helen's going to talk about the what.  So, the first thing on the "why" is to be really clear about the purpose of your one-to-ones.  Are they task focused, but sometimes you switch them to be more development focused, so more about you and your career; or, are your one-to-ones much more about your day-to-day and you have separate development conversations?  I've worked in organisations and I've seen this happen in lots of different ways.  I think the most important thing is to not to try to do two things at once.  I think, if you try to do a one-to-one which is a bit about the day-to-day, so a bit about the priorities, the tasks, more about the challenges of getting your job done and achieving your objectives, and at the same time try and have a career conversation, I'm sure I've done this as a manager, the last question you ask is, "And, how is everything going generally?"  And even saying that, I've definitely asked that question. 

Helen Tupper: Got a few minutes left?  I can ask that big question! 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think then, that ends up reducing the quality of both conversations.  So personally, I prefer it when one-to-ones are about the day-to-day, about achieving your objectives, about priorities and progress and overcoming immediate challenges.  And I like having separate bigger career conversations that are about development, because also I think they're often longer conversations, I think you approach those conversations with a different mindset; but I have also seen them switched back and forth, where sometimes you'll use them for that, and sometimes you'll use them as a career conversation.  But I think, in my head, I find the separation and being quite single-minded quite helpful. 

Helen Tupper: Do you want to hear something cringeworthy I thought about when I was reflecting on this point? 

Sarah Ellis: Go on, then. 

Helen Tupper: Is it a one-to-do, or a one-to-you?! 

Sarah Ellis: This is awful! 

Helen Tupper: I know; hence, why I didn't put it in our notes, but it's still in my head! 

Sarah Ellis: What was it; a one-to-one or one-to-you? 

Helen Tupper: No, a one-to-do, ie it's more about tasks, so it's about, "I'm going to have a one-to-do with you"; or, a one-to-you, which is more about me and my development.  It's just a framing, even I recognised! 

Sarah Ellis: If you start saying that to me, I'm going to leave you! 

Helen Tupper: I know, Sarah will never, ever have a meeting with me again.  But it is a framing about whether it's more about the do or you.  The other thing I was thinking, Sarah, when you were saying that is, we haven't put this in here as a "where" you have the meeting.  But actually, if I was just framing, just hold it for a second, if I was framing it as a one-to-do versus a one-to-you, I would probably do those in different places. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah. 

Helen Tupper: I could do a one-to-do quite quickly, like a half hour in my diary, at my desk, "Sarah, there's a couple of things I need to talk about to progress with you, etc"; whereas, if it was more about me and my development, I probably would do that in a different place, and also a different time of the day.  I would think much more consciously about, "When am I going to get your attention, and when am I going to have enough time to talk this through, be in the right headspace?"    So, we haven't really put a "where" into it, but I almost think the physical place could be affected by what the focus of that one-to-one needs to be on.  

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and there's an interesting thought about, with hybrid working and with so many people still working virtually, I would never have a, I'm still going to call it a one-to-one because I can't say the alternatives out loud; I would never have a one-to-one with you, where we do those more task-oriented conversations out and about, because I feel I'm usually writing stuff down, I might be referring to documents.  But if I was going to have more of a career conversation, I'd go for a walk and do that, definitely.  I feel like I don't necessarily need to be writing things down, or I might walk for a bit of it, or I could easily be sitting in a coffee shop. 

Helen Tupper: We also have what I would call more problematic discussions! 

Sarah Ellis: To be fair, we had one of those when I was at a train station last week! 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, but generally I think we do those more at the end of the day, you know when there's something on our minds that's not task-y, it's just a problem we're both grappling with, and we will tend to talk that through towards the end of the day, I think so it feels like you've got a little bit of closure before you start on the next thing, or it's the last thing that you talk about.  I don't know why we do it, but I think that helps a lot. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  You know we talked before about the stress bucket of when your stress gets too high and then goes -- it's an idea from mental health training.  And I think one of the things you can do to release the stress if your stress bucket is getting too high is have conversations towards the end of a day.  I think that is actually one of the things that helps me and it just releases a bit of the pressure somehow.  So, that's the "why".  The "who" is really interesting.  I was doing a bit of reading and looking at some articles on one-to-ones last week. 

So many of them focus on managers, managers and leaders, and almost their role and the importance of one-to-ones.  Whereas, I have always learnt, and this has actually been very consistent over a long period of time in my career, you are in charge of your one-to-ones, not your manager.  That was almost 101 for me; these are your conversations, so it's up to you to prepare for them, to set the agenda, to make sure you get the most out of them.  I think you could argue that I sometimes took that too far!  So, for anyone who was listening to our -- I'm not sure what the episode was called about managers, "How to be a brilliant manager", I think it is, where we interviewed two of our previous managers, Sarah and James.  I mean, Sarah actually told a few stories in that podcast about having one-to-ones with me. 

Helen Tupper: I think I got off quite lightly.  You got off with a few little laughs! 

Sarah Ellis: Well, I think I turned up having probably thought about it too much, and then prepared with all these probably slightly too deep and meaningful questions for Sarah, my previous boss, who was then put on the spot going, "Wow, I've just been asked about my preferred ways of working, and the regularity of these one-to-ones"; I'd probably really thought about this.    But I do think it is really important that your one-to-ones belong to you, and you are figuring out how they can be most helpful for you to achieve your objectives to do your job really well; and your manager is a really important person as part of that process. 

But I don't think it's their job to come and tell you what to talk about.  I also know it is a challenge that sometimes, you might have a manager that does think it's their time, and I appreciate that's a different challenge to navigate your way through.  So, if Helen's my manager and turns up and starts the conversation saying, "Well, I want to talk about this", that can be quite a hard transition if you're then thinking, "Well I'd got something.  Helen wants to talk about topic A, I want to talk about topic D", but Helen's my manager and in that position of power and starts in a very different place. 

So, when we get to the ideas for action, we'll talk a bit about what happens if you feel like your manager wants to be in charge of those one-to-ones, which also I've got some empathy with.  If you're like me and you like control and you like being in charge, you might be doing that without even necessarily realising it.  You might have the best intentions, but perhaps you feel like actually, you're the one setting the agenda; whereas, I do think it should be you in terms of your job, you set the agenda.  And then, final point on the "when", before we start moving into the "what", I don't think there is a rule for frequency.  And I asked our PodPlus workshop people last week what frequency works for them and what do they all do, because I thought it would just be interesting. 

There were a few things that popped up that I really liked.  One guy, who is a manager, what he said he does, and I liked this approach, he said he keeps his Wednesday mornings free, and that's 100% protected time, and his people can book a one-to-one as and when they need it.  So he said, "Sometimes, I might see someone every week for six weeks; sometimes, I might see someone once a month for a couple of months, and then that regularity can increase".  So, I think that really puts the ownership with the individual to say, "Well, you tell me how regularly you want to have those conversations and how I can be useful", but you'd feel confident in, "There is always that time there for me".  That really appealed to me, because I think what I look for from a manager is, I want loads of space, but I want to know that the support is there when I need it.  So, I think what he's done by carving out that moment in a week, I always think if Helen told me that, I'd be like, "I always know I've got that Wednesday morning, but I'll just use it as and when I need it", and then I have got all the space that I need. 

So, I thought that was a good idea.  I know some people who were mentioning in PodPlus now, which I also thought was good, they're doing 15-minute ones, so keeping them also really short.  So, they're every week, or they may be even twice a week, because perhaps you've got a really intense project, or you're working together a lot, but they're short and they're very focused; so, trying to break that mould of thinking a meeting has to be 30 minutes, or meeting has to be an hour.  I really liked that.  They were like, "We just do these 15 minutes", and there might only be one point, the agenda is one point.  I was like, "That's really good".  I liked how focused that was.  Then some people had complete freedom.  They were just, "We just do it as and when", and I felt a bit less comfortable with that, but I think that's because I'm someone who is not very spontaneous generally.  I'm not very spontaneous in terms of as a manager, or how I like to be managed.  So, I think just the idea of going, "We'll just sort of be free and easy", I'm like, "There's not enough freedom within a framework for me there".  What about you, Helen? 

Helen Tupper: I quite like having them regularly in my diary although, like I say, I don't think that works for everybody; but I do quite like, because in my mind, or as we'll talk about with the what in a second, I think I will have something like Microsoft Teams and I will capture things that I want to talk about in that same meeting, and I'll know that that's when it's going to happen.  I do think though, if you have one-to-ones on a Monday, you need longer for them than if you do on a Thursday, because if it's a Monday, you kind of have to talk about the weekend. 

You can't just ignore that someone has had two days when they've done some nice stuff with their friends and family and go straight into work!  So, I think you have to bake in maybe an extra ten minutes of catch-up chat to be, "Oh, what's gone on?"  Because, when I've had them before, otherwise you just rush through everything and you feel like that hasn't been a good meeting, because in order to have a chat with someone on a human level, I then haven't got through all the things I needed to talk about from a work perspective as well.  So, I tend to go a bit longer for the first meeting of the week. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's interesting as well in terms of, that's probably a good thing, because you're building a bit of a relationship with someone outside of the day-to-day.  But as the week goes on, probably everybody's so in work mode by that point, it does get a bit more transactional.  It sometimes might be a bit based on also how well you know that person.  So, if you're getting to know somebody, I would always be quite keen to understand some of that stuff, because that's other things that are important to someone.  If it's you and I, people might listen to this podcast, I mean we can be incredible transactional at times when we need to be, but that's because we know each other so well and we've known each other for so long that we don't really need to do the relationship building.  But I do imagine, because we don't do that, at some point the podcast will just stop and everyone will be, "What happened?" 

Helen Tupper: What, do you think there's going to be some crisis?! 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, "It's because they forgot to ask each other how they were actually doing, and they just got so into making podcasts and writing books and stuff, and that was it.  That was the end of Amazing If".  It won't happen. 

Helen Tupper: Don't say that! 

Sarah Ellis: Especially given we are recording this very early on a Monday morning!  So, that's the "when".  But I think agreeing that with your manager, I think the point on lots of things we're going to talk about today, is being explicit and transparent.  So, knowing exactly how they're going to work, so if we think about what we've talked about so far, the why, the who and the when, actually writing down or having that very explicit conversation where we go, "Well, this is the 'why' of the one-to-ones", are you doing that mix thing of tasks and development, or are you separating them out?  

Being clear with your manager that you will set that agenda and figure out how that's going to work together; your manager might also have some things they want to talk about, so how do you understand that and what might you do for that?  And then, agreeing that frequency, so there's nothing that goes unsaid.  Sometimes, I do think we all have positive intent, I believe, most of the time; but then I can easily imagine a point where you might get some feedback as a manager, or as an employee, saying, "I feel like you don't really prepare for them", and then you might think, "I thought my manager wanted to be in charge of those conversations".  So, I think don't let things go unsaid when we're going about one-to-ones.  This is where we want clarity, we want to be really clear. 

Helen Tupper: So, let's talk about the "what", then, and ultimately what you discuss is going to be very dependent on what job you do, where you work and what's on your mind; but a framework to maybe think about structuring your one-to-one conversation.   So the first thing is, discuss; what are the things that you want to discuss with your manager?  And the reason it's "discuss" is this isn't just update, and I fall into this trap where you go to a one-to-one and maybe you've not had a chance to prepare, so you basically just look at your notebook and go, "What can I update my manager on that I've been doing?" 

That's not really the best use of your time or their time, that's the sort of thing you could probably do over email or on teams.  It could happen before the meeting, it doesn't need to happen in the meeting; you're just not getting the most out of that conversation.  So, really think about, "What would be better if I talked to my manager about it, because they could give me some insight or ideas, or challenge my thinking?"  That's the sort of things you really want to have.  Think discussion, not update.    The second thing for your structure is, what needs to be decided; what can you not go away from that one-to-one not knowing?  You need to decide who needs to be in a meeting that you're running, you need to decide a date when a project needs to be delivered, or you need to decide what input you need from somebody into a conversation you're having with a stakeholder; whatever it is, go into it with clarity and you'll come out of it with what you need.  You can also be very specific about that to your manager. 

Sarah Ellis: I also think on that one, Helen, the mistake that I've made a lot in the past on the decide, is I would be clear about the decisions that I needed and what was important, but that wasn't where I started.  So, maybe because it was difficult, so it was a more difficult conversation, or I was maybe a bit more nervous about what they might say, I think sometimes that meant that I'd put it off and did that whole last-five-minutes thing.  And, in the last five minutes, I was actually talking about the thing that was the most important.    Or, because I'd just not thought about it enough; I'd either been a bit lazy, or I'd just not taken the time to think, "If I talk about nothing else, what needs to go first", and I'll talk about it later, but I then worked for a manager where almost the environment we were working in and the style of her management forced me to do this, because I never quite knew whether I was going to get 5 minutes with her or 45 minutes, and it was so unpredictable.  So, it almost taught me by accident, more than design going, "I've got to be really clear about the one thing that I need from her, because we might only have seven minutes; and at least if I do that one thing, I'm in a better position".  But I think you don't need that to happen to you to realise that, talk about the most important thing first. 

Helen Tupper: So, we've got discuss and we've got decide, and the last thing is "do", and that's really more about how you conclude the conversation, and what am I taking away, or what are you taking away from it, and I find this really, really important; because otherwise, you discuss loads of stuff, you decide on what's going to be done, and then you come back together a week or two weeks later and you're like, "What did we --" 

Sarah Ellis: We are so rubbish at this, aren't we? 

Helen Tupper: We are really rubbish at this.  But two things that I think help here. 

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah?  Are we actually going to start doing these things then? 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I think so.  I think we sort of do it, but not consistently.  So, we primarily use Teams for the behind-the-scenes working, Microsoft Teams, for the behind-the-scenes working of our business.  There are a lot of other platforms that are equally as good, but I think if you put on that before your meeting the discuss and decide, "What are the things that I want to discuss with you; what do we need to decide in the meeting?" then the other person can get a bit of a heads-up to it, so they're coming to it and they're not taken aback; but also, they could maybe think about it in advance, or they could put some comments on before the meeting.  Then, if you also have "do", then in the meeting, just before you go, you can summarise, "Okay, so the three things I'm going to do are… and the one thing that you're going to do is…", and you can quickly put that in the notes of the meeting. 

And I don't want to make it too structured or formal, because I think having an agenda for every -- having meeting notes for every one-to-one probably seems a bit overkill.  But if you can just capture a couple of the "dos" that you're taking away and the other person is, it makes it so much easier to make sure that you're making progress.  My only other tip for this, if that just feels like, "I'm going from my one-to-one into another meeting and I haven't got time to do the 'do' bit", then the only other thing that I use is Otter, which I've mentioned before, which is a free app; and I would just voice-record me saying -- I listen back to them, and I'm basically just talking to myself; but I just voice-record, "Sarah's going to… I am going to…  Catch up on it next week".  It takes me 30 seconds to do that and it even puts it into a transcription, so if you wanted to, you can just copy and stick that into the email, or for us it would be a Teams post, or something like that.  But just capturing that "do" is a really important part of closing that conversation with clarity. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I feel like this is one of my biggest, "even better ifs", when it comes to one-to-ones.  It's quite interesting to think about, not just "even better ifs" generally, but what is your "even better if" when it comes to one-to-ones.  I think I have so much clarity in the conversation and then 24 hours later, I'm not very good at remembering the ins and outs.  And because I'm the opposite of a completer/finisher as a profile, I'm much more of a, good at coming up with ideas and developing things and good at making decisions; I like to make decisions. 

But then the problem is, I don't quite do that last 10%, and I think that last 10% is so important.  I can think of examples, loads of examples this year where, because I don't do this, you then end up having to repeat the conversation, which is such a waste of time and it's so frustrating; I'm frustrated about myself.  So, I think you've got to come up with those little mechanisms that Helen described that will work for you, so that all of your hard work isn't wasted.  That's what I keep telling myself.  And I think the reason I don't want to do it is because in that moment, I don't find it very motivating, "I don't want to write things down; I'm really clear in my own head".  But then, I've got to remember that I won't be clear in 24 hours and don't waste this hard work.   So, just literally take five minutes and write these things down, and it's worth its weight in gold.  But if you're like me, I do find that hard.  That's probably the hardest thing about one-to-ones for me. 

Helen Tupper: So, we've got do discuss, do decide and do write down your dos.  And then one big don't, which is don't overload the conversation with too many things; because, particularly if these one-to-ones aren't happening that frequently, or maybe you've just got an awful lot on at the moment, it can be really easy to bring so many different parts of that discussion to the conversation, which can be quite overwhelming for the manager, overwhelming for you, you've got an overwhelming amount of actions that come out of it. 

I think it's better, if that's where you are right now, have more frequent one-to-ones; have a daily one-to-one that week, and just focus on one particular thing that you need to make progress on, or I think you lose some of the clarity, and almost you end up with quite a lot of confusion, because you're covering too many things in one conversation.  So, if it's feeling like that list of things that you want to discuss and decide is a mammoth amount, then you're probably better to have a couple of one-to-ones that week, rather than throw it all into one 30-minute conversation. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and somebody I worked with once shared a structure.  They were actually the manager and lead of the team, and they would suggest to their team a structure with headings which were, "People, projects, priorities and progress".  The point wasn't that you had to talk through all of those things.  The point was, it just gives you a bit of a framework to figure out, well which of those is most important to talk about today?  So, is it progress on project A; or is it, I'm struggling with my priorities; or is it that there's a barrier on this particular project; or is there a people challenge? 

But it just helps to figure out which direction do you want to go first.  You might have some, "Well, if we have time, I might get to these extra bullet points, but if we don't, it's not a big deal".  And that was the other thing a few people shared with me in PodPlus last week.  Quite a few people had come up with some sort of consistent structure, either for themselves, or as a manager that they were suggesting to their teams.  Again, that's not to say it's a tick list of things you have to talk through, it was just to help with, "Where shall I start?" and just as a way to bring all your thoughts together.  So, if that's helpful, use something a bit like that, or just come up with your own one and experiment with different ways of doing it. 

So, we've now got three ideas for action, which are a bit more of a deep dive into making one-to-ones work well for you.  So, I'm going to start by talking about the first one, which we've called "model your manager".  As we've said, we think it's really important that you own your one-to-ones and I think at the same time, that you adapt enough to reflect how to work best with your manager.    In my experience, I was actually trying to count up how many managers I've had in my career so far.  It's quite an interesting question, but I was thinking it's at least ten, I think, if not probably slightly more.  But when I was thinking about working with each of those managers and my one-to-ones with those managers, even though I think I always took ownership for those one-to-ones, I did need to just think a little bit about what works best for this manager, in terms of how we work together.  So, just to explain that a bit further, if I think about Helen being my manager, for example, I know that with Helen, because I know her well and we've worked together a lot, I could come to a one-to-one with Helen and she's very good on the spot. 

So, I would feel okay about spontaneously discussing something with her that perhaps she didn't know I was going to chat about.  It doesn't mean that she might still not want some more time to think something through, but if I said to her, "I'm a bit stuck on this [or] have you got any ideas on this?" I know that Helen would be really happy to just give her thoughts and would make decisions quickly. 

However, if Helen was having a conversation with me, then I know I'm not as good on the spot.  I'm really good with an agenda beforehand, I like to think things through, and then I'm good at making decisions on the spot, but often not if I've been put on the spot in the first place.  And, as I mentioned before, I have worked for some managers who are incredibly structured; I've worked for other managers who were incredibly frantic, through the nature as well of what they were doing; and that manager that I talked about where sometimes, because of the nature of her job, she would get phone calls from our CEO or journalists, and it did mean that our one-to-ones were frequently interrupted, that sometimes they would last five minutes, sometimes, if she'd got loads of time, they could easily last 55 minutes, even though they have only been in for half an hour.  Initially, I found that quite hard, I think because I'm structured and I was working with someone who'd got a very different personality to me and a very different approach.  But those one-to-ones worked much better when I thought about how I adapt enough to make sure that this is still really useful time for me for what I'm trying to achieve. 

So I think when we say model your manager, we're not saying you've got to lose your sense of ownership, but I think it's thinking about how does your manager like to work; what does your manager at their best look like; how can you almost build a brilliant relationship with your manager?  Think about some of those bigger questions and then think about, "What does that mean for my one-to-ones?"  What about you, Helen, do you feel like with each of your managers, you've had different one-to-one styles? 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I was thinking when you were saying that, I was getting too distracted, because I was counting them in my head.  I think I've had about 20 managers.  But also, think about when we were on that grad scheme, we would have clocked up 4 on that. 

Sarah Ellis: That's true, yeah. 

Helen Tupper: And I was thinking, "What have I learnt from all the one-to-ones with all those different managers?"  Yeah, I think I have definitely adapted.  I realise that there were certain managers who were so distracted by the people in the room, that if I wanted to have a high-quality one-to-one, I'd have to have it in a place where there weren't people that they could see so that I could have their attention on me and what I wanted to discuss. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I've had that. 

Helen Tupper: Whereas, some of the people, I could have a one-to-one in a really open space, and they'd be fine, they'd be fully present with me.  And so, yeah, I think I've had to design the what, the where and the when, all around that manager to have the conversation I needed to have. 

Sarah Ellis: It does now make you think, doesn't it?  At that point where I started to manage teams and manage more people, were they all thinking that about me?  There's that quid pro quo, isn't there?  We both probably worked really hard to do that and then you're like, "I wonder if other people were thinking the same and thinking, 'Sarah's quite organised and quite structured, so I need to think about the agendas beforehand and what decisions I want from her'". 

Helen Tupper: You do realise that people we have managed are probably listening to this podcast and are like, "You two did not put that into practice!" 

Sarah Ellis: I know!  Well, we were saying before this conversation, weren't we, that we don't think we always still do this all the time.  Obviously, we're presenting a perfect world here, which is a good aspiration to work towards. 

Helen Tupper: We're all work in progress. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, exactly.

  Helen Tupper: So, the second idea for action is to "know your need".  This is really about making sure that your one-to-one leaves you with the clarity that you need and the capability to progress your work.  This isn't about, what does your manager need from you this is about, what do you need from your manager?  Do you need some input from them on a project you're working on; do you need some ideas to unlock your thinking; do you need to be introduced to a different person in the business to help you move something forward?  Go with that in mind and make sure that you confidently ask them for what you need. 

So you might say, "I'd like to get your input on…" or, "I would value an introduction to…".  This gives you a lot more control over that conversation and it makes sure that you get what you need to move forward.  I also think going with knowing what you need in mind stops you falling into that slightly subservient trap of, "This is my big, successful manager and I need to do what they want me to do".  I think it neutralises that a little bit and think, "So what do I need?"    That person is in a position of power versus you, they've got certain power, certain access that you might not have, they'll be part of certain conversations and have certain connections that you might not have, and it's thinking about, "How do I tap into that through the relationship that I've got with that person?" 

Sarah Ellis: I was thinking about that point of, if your conversations feel out of your control at the moment, what do you do?  So, let's say Helen's my manager and I'm coming to a meeting thinking, "I know this is what I need help on.  I need help on prioritising.  I feel I've got too much to do; I need my manager's help with prioritising".    Then, if your manager feels like they have the control and let's say they're starting in a completely different place, and you feel like they're derailing those conversations, because let's face it, we've all had those managers where, even if you want to be in control, you feel like that's not an option, I feel one of the things you can do is signal to your manager that it's absolutely fine if they want to talk about something different, or if something else is on their mind, but signal early on that that's the thing that you need.  It might then be two conversations, and I think that's okay, because you want to have enough flexibility in your approach.   

So, I think if then I said to Helen, "I really need some help prioritising, that's top of my…", but Helen's already started off going, "I want to talk about this project and the relationships we need to build", I think you can say, "Okay, so today, if that's on your mind, let's talk about those relationships; but the thing that I also really need some help on is some prioritising.  So, can we either do half the conversation on one and half the conversation on the other", if you can split the conversation in two, so you can give both of you the opportunity to talk through what's most important to you; or you say, "And can we have a follow-up conversation on that other thing?"  So, I think it's not about going necessarily always either or, because I think there will be moments and managers where you just feel like they are more in control of those conversations than you are, and maybe this is not a very nice way of thinking about it, but I do think about, how can you claw back a bit of control; how can you just signal that there were some things on your list that are really important, and even if you split that conversation in half, or if you do two conversations, just a way so that your manager can start to see, "Okay, they've thought about this" and then it just means that that power dynamic, I think, changes a bit over time.  It might not be immediately, but I think each week feeling like you've got a bit more ownership can be quite useful. 

And then, our third idea for action, which is a bit of borrowed brilliance from our PodPlus community, is to start with a win, and then I've built on it a little bit; start with a win and why.  So, not necessarily for every one-to-one, but I think it is good to start conversations with your manager some of the time by sharing a win and why something has gone well, so that you can learn from it, your manager can learn, but also your team can learn.  The reason for doing this is, I think sometimes we assume that our managers know these things, and that they not only know them, but remember them.  But managers, like all of us, are also pulled in lots of different directions and are doing loads of different things. 

They've also got their own manager to manage.  I think that's also worth remembering; every manager also has a manager.  So, we're all trying to do this and I think it can be useful every so often, especially if it's something that is either important to you, or perhaps you've had to do a lot of hard work behind the scenes to make something happen that again might be harder to appreciate, that kind of iceberg analogy of, someone might just see a win and they might just think, it's a bit like a few people have said to us, "Oh, that's great, you've had that first article in Harvard Business Review".  So, we had an article a few weeks ago published in Harvard Business Review; and on the surface, you just see the bit that people see as, "Brilliant, you've got a really useful article we talked about the other week about being a learn-it-all, unlearning and relearning".  When people have chatted to me about that, I've often talked about, "It's a really important win for us, and here are some of the reasons why that's important and how we got to that point, because it's a lot of work, not just in the last month, but in the last year.  It's about building brilliant relationships, it's about reading other articles to see what works well, it's about editing, it was about writing together.   

So sometimes, for those moments where people might just see almost the shininess above the surface, it's worth just thinking about, why did that go so well, but also reminding your manager that's a really important win.  Maybe it's a relationship that your team has turned around; maybe it's a small win, but you feel it's going to give you really positive momentum for lots of other things that really matter to the team.  And we don't want to just collect all of our wins and wait for an end-of-year conversation, or a quarterly review, partly because I think you forget them.  Whereas actually, if we talk about them a bit more in the moment, we've talked before on the podcast about things like very small successes, or doing "win of the week" as a team.  We've started doing "win of the week" as an Amazing If team, probably for the past maybe couple of months, and we do it every Friday.  I can now remember both my own wins, but also other people's wins. 

They're much more memorable.  I never would have remembered them if you'd have had to do an end-of-year review, but I can now share what wins have we had together, what wins have individuals had, just because we've got into a bit more of a routine of just talking about them more consistently.  What's interesting is people do tend to share the why; you don't just go, "This is great", you often do share a bit more detail that gives you some really useful insights that you can learn from, but also your team can learn from. 

Helen Tupper: That "why" also, I think, is a signal into why that win matters to them, and that is often some clues as to what people's values are, and that is such a useful insight into what motivates and drives people, for teams to have that insight.  S

o, what we wanted to end on is just a little bit here for managers, because what we've talked about so far is, how do you go to your one-to-one and make sure that you get out of it what you need.  But there are likely to be lots of managers listening to this, so we just wanted to flip to you for a second and think about, how do you ask questions that can really help to create a valuable one-to-one for that other person?  So, here are six useful questions for managers to ask in one-to-ones.  I'm just going to talk them through, but these will also be on the PodSheet, that you can download from today's episode.  And if you want the link to the PodSheet, just go into the show notes.  So,

question 1: how can I help? 

Question 2: what's the biggest barrier getting in your way? 

Question 3: what's most important for you in the next week and the next month? 

Question 4: how are you feeling about how you're spending your time? 

Question 5: what's one relationship you want to invest in or improve at the moment? 

Question 6: what does positive progress look like for you this week? 

Those questions are all designed to just help someone think through and share something that is important to them.  You don't need to ask all of them in one conversation, that would probably be quite a long one, but maybe just start thinking about, "Which one of these am I going to ask in my one-to-one today?" and see what insight that you get out of that conversation.  I guess, just a final note for managers on this one, we know the diaries are really busy and lots of stuff can come in the way and move your diaries around, but just be really careful about rescheduling your one-to-ones, because it really starts to impact on the perceived prioritisation of those meetings.  And if you do need to do it, maybe just talk through to the person why it's happening, so they can understand that you're not just moving it without any context for them, because you don't want them to feel like they're the lowest thing on your agenda.  So, just be careful of it, the signals and signs that it sets for that person if you keep moving them around, or shortening them, or just cancelling them at short notice.

  Sarah Ellis: So, that's everything for this week.  We hope that you found that a useful episode.  We did just also want to say thank you for a couple of people recently have left us ratings and reviews for the podcast, and often we forget to say about it, but partly I think anyone who listens to podcasts now knows that if you rate, review and subscribe, it really helps us.  So, when people do that spontaneously, we really appreciate it, and it's so nice to read those.   

We've had people from loads of different industries writing in, some people who've just discovered the podcast, and I always think that must be really overwhelming, "I've just discovered it and now there's 250 episodes", or whatever there is now; or, some people who've been listening since the start and then they suddenly think, "Oh yeah, I'll work out how to do a review".  So, if you have done that, thank you, and if it's been on your list, or you think, "I didn't realise that mattered", it's really helpful for us, and also we read every one.  And we get a little update every week, we get an email with any new reviews, and it's often the little thing that we screenshot to each other over WhatsApp and say, "Look, people do listen, it's not just you and I talking to each other really early on a Monday morning!"  It is helpful for people, so thank you to everyone who does that. 

Helen Tupper: Thank you, everybody.  We'll be back with you next week.  Speak to you all soon. 

Sarah Ellis: Bye for now.