Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:23: Some common difficult decisions

00:04:52: Personal examples of making difficult decisions

00:08:12: The difficult career decision diamond…

00:08:58: … 1: distance - decision dress rehearsal

00:13:23: … 2: data - facts vs feelings

00:18:00: … 3: discussions - expand your experiences

00:24:01: … 4: drive - make a why watch

00:28:04: Summary of the four points and the ideas for action

00:28:38: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we get together to help you navigate the ups and downs in your Squiggly Career, and share lots of practical ideas for action and tools to try out that we really hope just give you that bit more confidence, clarity and control in your career.  And today, we're talking about how to make difficult decisions during your career.

Helen Tupper: The episode today was inspired by some conversations we were having with people last week about some difficult decisions that they had made.  I don't want to share those discussions, because they were private ones, but my reflections in listening to the people that were making the decisions were that they'd been wrangling with them for a little bit of time, that there'd been quite a lot of energy absorbed in making that decision; but now that they'd got to a point of clarity, they were actually quite positive about what was coming next for them. I admired them a lot, I was like, "Wow, that does sound really, really tough", and I hope that if Sarah and I are faced with some decisions that might be similar to the ones that they were having, that we could make them and have the same level of clarity and be positive about what was moving forward.  It also made me think about, "Well, lots of us have difficult career decisions", and what can we all learn together, so that we can face those decisions with that confidence and with that clarify about what we do next.

Sarah and I were trying to reflect on, what were some of those common difficult career decisions; so, here's where we got to, and maybe you relate to one of these, or maybe there's a different one.  But we got to, leaving a job: making that decision that now is the time to leave; or perhaps a company.  Maybe you're like, "For whatever reason, this company doesn't feel right for me anymore", but maybe you really like the company, that could be hard. Killing a project: so you put loads of effort and energy into something, but you just recognise that actually, it's not working anymore, and so there's this opportunity cost, I always think, in those situations where you're like, "But I've worked on this for six months, but do I waste another six more?" those sorts of things.

Stopping something you've started: I've been in this situation a little bit.  I took my MBA almost twice!

Sarah Ellis: Why have one when you could have two, sort of?!

Helen Tupper: Or 1.5!  But I started my MBA and then had to stop for various different reasons.  Then I had to make a decision to restart, even though I thought, "But what if it's like last time?" all that kind of stuff. Work/life fit as a parent: there are massive changes that you make, I think, when you are coming back to work, when you suddenly have the addition of a child.  Doing something you've not done before, I mean there's loads, career changes, all of these are examples that we thought, these are inevitable moments in your career timeline, where a tough decision is something that you're considering.

Sarah Ellis: I think why these feel hard, I was reading a really good article about this; these decisions are often described as, "Grey-area problems".  As soon as you say just the grey area, all the shades of grey, I think whenever you think about these difficult decisions, they are rarely solved in a flash of brilliance, so there's no moment of absolute clarity.  I think, because we make so many decisions all the time probably in our day jobs, we are more used to that feeling. 

We're used to maybe weighing up a few different options, or understanding different avenues that we could take, and then we make a decision, we feel good about it, and we move onto the next thing. This is about letting go of the idea of a "right answer" emerging, and that can feel really hard.  And, there can be a lot of uncertainty, I think, wrapped up in these difficult decisions.  So, you might be worried about failing, or the risk of failing; you're probably concerned about, "What do other people think about me?"  So, there's lots of complexity, they do feel complicated, these difficult decisions do.  And there's a really good quote from a lady called Cheryl Strauss Einhorn, and she says, "When we're faced with difficult and complex decisions, we typically experience difficult and complex emotions".  It's sort of, well it is a difficult decision, so it is going to feel difficult. So firstly, we shouldn't give ourselves a hard time, or blame ourselves if we're thinking, "This feels hard"; it will feel hard.  Every difficult decision Helen and I were talking about that we'd both made throughout our career, they always feel like quite hard, knotty moments; but inaction, I think, is really unhelpful. 

The more you read about not doing anything, that tends to be the biggest source of regret, you know, the staying stuck or staying still, that's ultimately, I think, what gets in our way. So, what we're really going to try and help you do in this podcast is, you've got one of those difficult career decisions coming up, or at the moment, or you can see it before maybe the end of this year, what could you do that might help you to make that decision.

Helen Tupper: And we were reflecting on some of the ones that we have made, or struggled with, to make this as relatable as possible, and make sure that the tools that we've got for you to try out are really useful and useable tools.  So, I think one of the toughest career decisions that I have made and struggled with, and honestly I don't think I did it very well, was when I had my first child, Henry, and I was working at Virgin at the time.  I went on maternity leave, and I really struggled with how I returned to work, in that I felt like loads of people around me did these staggered returns, but I didn't know what was going to be the right thing for me, and I loved work and I just really struggled with how to return to work. I remember, I chose to do the staggered return.  I think I'd planned it all out in my head.  I was like, "I'm going to do three days a week for two weeks, then I'm going to go to four, then I'm going to go to five", and I'd over-planned it, based on goodness knows what, and I found myself in the reality of it not working.  I don't think I approached that decision very well; I think I was just trying to get to clarity.  To your point, Sarah, I think I was trying to get to the right answer, and I didn't explore the decision enough to get to the thing that was probably right for me.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think I was thinking about probably the biggest decision I've ever made in my career is to leave being employed to being a founder of a company.  It's less about the fact that I've moved from corporate world to us starting up a couple of years ago, it was more just that idea of going, "Wow, I've only ever worked for an organisation, for a company, and how that works", the fact you get paid every month and what that looks like.  And for me, moving out of that environment into one where you're sort of starting from scratch, it felt very unfamiliar, I'd got a lot less points of reference. Helen and I were reflecting on some of our differences, of Helen being a doer and me being a thinker, and what that means in terms of making difficult career decisions; because I think we were both saying we actually realised we respond in quite different ways.  So for me, as a thinker, one of my watchouts when I'm making difficult career decisions is getting stuck at one stage, so almost the loop, getting stuck in a spiral, getting stuck in a loop. 

And as we talk through some examples today, I think you will see, "Oh, Sarah's clearly got stuck in a bit of a loop here, she's going round in circles", again I think in this hope that at some point, I'll get the clarity and the confidence and the control that I'm probably used to feeling a lot of the rest of the time, is going to apply to this situation.  Again, I don't think I had realised, "It will just feel different.  Making this decision will feel different to all of those day-to-day decisions that I make all the time".

Helen Tupper: I think the danger of being a doer, with some of these difficult career decisions, is that I just look for a quick answer sometimes, "Okay, here it is, problem solved, just do this, decision done".  I don't really reflect on, if that decision hasn't worked out well, like for example the decision about how I returned to work, why didn't it work out, because I don't do a lot of that post-decision reflection.  So, the issue, the danger for me, is that I just repeat the same bad decisions, because I'm not approaching them in a particularly structured or considered way; it's the doer that's driving the decision, and not necessarily learning from it along the way. So, how can we help you then?  We have got a structure which we think helps you to get a bit of confidence and a bit of clarity with the difficult career decisions you'll be making, whether you are a thinker like Sarah, or a doer like me. 

So, we're going to introduce you to the difficult career decision diamond.  Imagine a diamond in your brain, there are four points, so there are four parts of this process that we're going to talk through.  And if it helps, you might want to download the PodSheet. So, we will have this diagram and some of the things that we are now going to talk through, that will be on the PodSheet.  You can get that on our website, amazingif.com.  You can download that, and you can see what we're talking about now.  But let's just bring this to life.  So, a difficult career decision diamond, four points that will help you to get a bit more confidence and clarity over the decision that you're making. The first point on this diamond is to get some distance from your decision. 

So, sometimes when it feels difficult, and Sarah mentioned the emotions that are associated with these types of decisions, it can feel quite overwhelming, and sometimes you almost can't see through a situation, because you are worrying about what people will think, or you are worrying about, "What happens if I make the wrong decision?" What we're trying to get you to do first is to focus on the bigger picture.  The idea for action here is to have a decision dress rehearsal, and we want you to imagine having made a decision in one direction.  So, move forward from the moment, and move into the outcome of making that decision, and some questions for you to reflect on here are: what would be true that isn't true today; how would you like to look back on that year and describe what has happened to a friend; and, what's the worst-case scenario and how you feel about that happening? These questions are aiming to get you away from where you are right now, and all of the emotions of the situation, and just to zoom out a little bit, so that you can focus on where that decision could take you.

Sarah Ellis: I use decision dress rehearsals a lot in coaching.  So, if I'm just taking a coaching approach just generally to a career conversation, or if I've really got my coaching hat on, and someone has got a difficult career decision or a dilemma, often they're dilemmas, aren't they, these difficult decisions, by doing this fast-forwarding, you'll also start to hear from people and you'll notice I think in yourself a real sense of energy and motivation, or sometimes not. So sometimes people, when you start to describe this for yourself, or perhaps you're having a conversation with somebody to do a bit of peer-to-peer coaching, you start to realise you're not that motivated by the thing that would be true and you don't feel that proud, when you're starting to imagine it. 

So maybe on paper, that first idea, that first possibility that you might be exploring, maybe on paper that absolutely looks like the right thing to do.  But when you go through this imagining, you just start to realise, "Well, it might be the right thing for some people, but it's not the right thing for me".  Or, maybe the more you talk about it, sometimes the more excited and energised you get. That doesn't take away fears and that doesn't then mean that it will then be a really clear-cut decision, because as we said, we've got to let go of that; but just doing this first, it's often I think most interesting to just notice how did you feel and respond to these questions, not even the exact answers, but did you get really energetic and really excited, or were you just saying things that you thought you should say?

Helen Tupper: I'm trying to put myself back into that situation, which would have been 2015, when I returned to work, and trying to think about the Helen then answering these questions.  If I had said to myself, "What would have been true that isn't true today?" I would have said, "Henry's happy being looked after in full-time childcare and I am working full time"; that's what I would have wanted to be true.  How would you like to look back on that year?  Confident about my decisions and not comparing myself to other people.  And, what's the worst-case scenario?  I don't get it right first time, I have a safe conversation with my manager about doing something differently. I think that probably would have just made me feel really confident, and not make a decision that I thought other people might have expected me to make, because that was a big part of mine was, what do other people think of the decisions that I'm making, particularly about my childcare arrangements.

Sarah Ellis: And maybe even just what you've seen happen before.  It might be a little bit expectation, but it might just be like, "Oh, well lots of other people seem to be doing it this way, so maybe I should be doing it this way", because you automatically look at other people's decisions and think, "They were the right decisions", but almost without knowing, "Did that work for them?  Is it going to work for me?"

Helen Tupper: Honestly, I think I was really worried, which is why it was difficult, about being seen as an uncaring career woman.  I thought people would think, "Well, how can you go back to work full time straightaway when you've got a young baby?"  I was like, "Well, because he's going to have brilliant childcare and I really love work".  That's what I said in my head, but that's not what I said when I was returning to work.  So, yeah, I think it probably would have helped me to get some of that clarity.

Sarah Ellis: Okay, so that's the first point of that diamond, so you've got distance.  Then we're going to do data.  When we're inclined to get into data, often I think this is where we go first when we're making a decision.  So, it's intentional and I think important that it's not the first thing that you do.  But obviously, we don't want to ignore that data either, because that can give us useful insights.  I think, depending on maybe whether you're a thinker or a doer, and just your approach generally, sometimes I think we avoid some of the data, because maybe we don't like it, or we want to control it.  I can see that in myself; I'm like, "I don't really like that fact, so I'll just ignore it", and I love to avoid things, so that works well for me. Or, maybe it's not about avoiding; maybe there is so much data, there's so much happening that it feels confusing, or overwhelming, you can't see the wood for the trees. 

And, there is quite a lot of research that shows that having too many options often leaves us feeling more stuck.  I see this a little bit with Squiggly Careers, where people are really upbeat and optimistic about their careers, but almost the fact that there are so many opportunities, that means that it feels really difficult.  So, when we say "difficult career decisions", sometimes there an assumption it's a bad thing, or it's a hard decision that maybe you don't want to make.  It might be a real positive. I remember choosing between two jobs while I was at Sainsbury's and I had got the option to do both jobs.  Now, two jobs doesn't sound like that many options, but as a thinker, I'd decided to really think about those two options.  One of those jobs was much more similar to what I'd done before and one was much further away from my area of expertise and experience.  And almost, I just wasn't ready for having two -- lots of people would be like, "That's the best-case scenario", but I just wasn't ready for having these two options.  And I took too long thinking about both of those things, and actually some of the things that we're going to talk about helped me to get there, but I definitely got stuck in that circle to being like, "But what about…; what if…?" and you can do that, I think, for too long. So, this is how we're going to stop you doing what I would have done, which is to sit with it for weeks and weeks.  The idea for action here is called "facts versus feelings".  So, on day one, we want you to set yourself a timer and give yourself five minutes to write down facts about your decisions.  So you might have two or three options or decisions, and you're just writing down every fact that you know about that decision.  So it could be, "I've got to make a decision by X date", for example; it could be, "I've got two jobs, I've been offered both of those jobs", that's a fact.  So, just facts. Straight after, five minutes on how you feel about those decisions, and you're just doing feelings. 

I really recommend you do pen and paper for this, just in terms of helping our thinking, it can just be quite useful; and particularly for what we're going to do on day two.  So day one, five minutes on facts, five minutes on feelings. Day two, you're going to do a five-minute review, so you're going to go back to what you've already written down and just consider, have you got anything to add; is there anything you've missed; have you got any edits that you want to make?  Try and challenge yourselves on, "Is that a fact?"  So, I just used an example there, "I've got a deadline to make a decision about this job" that maybe Sainsbury's have said to me, "Can you make a decision by Friday?"  Maybe it's Tuesday or Wednesday.  Now, is that a fact, or is there the option for me to say, "I would like a bit more time to consider this, because it's really important to me?"  That's exactly the sort of thing I want to say; just give myself more time to think!  I can hear you all chuckling at home being like, "Is that a bit of a copout?"  Yes, but that's exactly what I would do!

Helen Tupper: Whereas, I would make up a deadline, wouldn't I?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you would make a deadline!

Helen Tupper: We're so funny; you'd be like, "Can I have more time to think?" and I would make up an untrue deadline, just to get it done!

Sarah Ellis: "I'd like to decide today, in an hour"!  So, just challenge the facts to make sure they are cold, hard facts, and just see whether there are any facts that you could challenge, are there questions that you might helpfully ask that could just give you a bit more space if you need it. And it's really important here just to say that facts are not more important than feelings, or vice versa.  There is a great article on HBR that's called Emotions are Not the Enemy of Decision-Making.  It's really just to help you understand your current situation and what is influencing your decision. So, if you're really influenced by some of those feelings that you've just written down, and that's what's most important to you, I think it's just having almost the transparency of, "That is what's influencing me".  But those facts, don't avoid or ignore them, because they're not going anywhere.  I think it just helps you to have that sort of balance, that pragmatic balance that we're looking for when you're trying to make these difficult decisions.

Helen Tupper: So, we're halfway through our difficult career decision diamond.  We've covered distance, Sarah just covered getting some data, and then the third point that we're going to talk about is all about discussions.  So, what we want you to do here is to talk to some other people to get some insights that might help you to inform your decision; but what we don't want you to do is get into the looping thing that Sarah talked about, you know where you just discuss and discuss and discuss, and then you never actually move forward. So, our idea for action here, to make sure that your discussions help you to move forward with the decision, is all around expanding your experiences.  So, it's not about lots of nice chats, or just lots of conversations for the sake of talking to some people about it, it's about three specific experiences that will be really helpful for you to learn from.

So, as an example here, let's imagine the decision that you're making is a career change, a bit like Sarah's one that she talked about; does she stay in corporate life, or does she go run her own thing full time?  What's really helpful here is to think about, "What are three experiences that would be really useful for me to learn from?  They're the discussions that would help inform my decision".  So, maybe the first one is talking to somebody that's made a career change across any industry; and maybe the second one is somebody who's made the specific career change that you're considering; and then the third one could be somebody who's already done it.  They made the decision years ago and they're already active in the area that you want to go into. These different experiences can help you to create much more relevant insight that can inform your decision, rather than just having lots of nice conversations with people who have lots of different opinions, which is definitely where you might start looping.

Sarah Ellis: So, I found this really useful.  Practically, I've done this, but I don't think I did it with the three different types of experiences.  When I was moving from corporate world to Amazing If, I did have a conversation with someone who had moved from corporate world to setting up their own creative agency.  And, what's interesting is I really remember that conversation, I think because it felt so relevant and he completely got it; you know when you don't have to do very much describing, because he already understood what I was talking about.  He'd got my fears, because we all share some common fears about what that might mean and what I'd be letting go of; and quite quickly he could get to the point and give me some good insight, some good advice, ask me some good questions. You don't have to do exactly what these people have done.  I think it just helps you to think, "So, what does that mean for me?"  I think I would have moved to Amazing If quicker, because it definitely dragged on for ages for me, because I really, for lots of feeling reasons, going back to the facts versus feelings, I was really influenced by my feelings and that's what kept me in corporate land for longer, because I was avoiding actually some of the facts, perhaps because I wasn't quite ready, I wasn't maybe quite ready to make that transition.

I think, if I'd also spoken to someone who had made a career change just generally, and maybe someone who had particularly run their own business for a long time, because I think in my head I was thinking, "I'm not that person".  That was a real worry for me about moving into Amazing If was, I enjoy working in a big, corporate environment, and I'm really happy and I've been successful in my own terms in that world.  So, I wasn't very sure about what I was running to.  And we always say, "You don't want to be running from, you want to be running to".  But I know some people who have only ever run their own company, I can see that I have lots in common with those people, but I didn't spend any time with those people when I was trying to make that decision. Maybe a little bit because I'm introverted and get stuck in my own head, I didn't have enough conversations, and I think some of these expanding experiences, conversations, would have been incredibly helpful for me, and I'm so glad I had that one, that one conversation; it did a lot of unlocking for me and it helped me to get unstuck. There's a Warren Buffet quote that really influenced our idea here, when we were thinking about what would be useful, where he says, "When people tell me they've learnt from experience, I tell them the trick is to learn from other people's experiences".  It's like, steal with pride, isn't it?  It's perfect.

Helen Tupper: That is so good.  A bit of a doer insight as I was just listening to you there, so this diamond, we've got distance, data, discuss, and Sarah's going to talk about the last bit, drive, in a second.  But just listening to Sarah there, it did make me think, you can use this as a way to help you to manage the decisions that you might be facing, but I think you could actually almost go round the triangle the opposite way to unpick and reflect on some of the decisions that you've made in the past, and work out what you do well and where your area for improvement is.

Sarah Ellis: I like it!

Helen Tupper: If I think about some of mine, I kind of go, "Well, I think I'm all right at the zooming out, maybe I do get a bit of data.  I think I also don't do the discussing".  I have a few nice chats with people, but I don't think I'm really specific about expanding experiences.  Probably, if I approach more decisions in the future, I think that's probably the bit that I would very consciously need to go, "Don't skip that; that's a really important part of this process.  Don't move on from that", and as a doer who wants to rush through things, that's an area for focus for me. So, you can use it in the way that we're talking about, "Here's the decision, here's the four parts of the process you need to go through", but I do think a bit of unpicking and going anticlockwise round a diamond -- can you go anticlockwise round a diamond?  You get what I mean!

Sarah Ellis: Well, I think what you're reflecting on there is maybe, what would you naturally do well, because I suspect there are parts of this diamond where you'll bring your own brilliance to it.  So, maybe you're brilliant at the discussion part, and like Helen, maybe that's the bit that you already do really well.  But maybe there's a bit of the diamond that's missing.  I think probably the power in this approach is the whole being bigger than the sum of the parts, because if you put all the parts of the diamond together, that's probably when you make the best decisions for you.  It's almost like doing a bit of a gap analysis, isn't it, which I think is helpful. Actually, one of the things that I think I do well is this last one.  The last D in the difficult career decision diamond is about drive. 

And so, this is about being clear, once you've made your decision, what your drivers and are and were, and not forgetting those.  I think we're not trying to reduce the shades of grey to black and white, I don't think that's our job to do; the shades of grey will stay.  But I think what we are trying to do is have clarity about why you made that decision, whatever you're going for, that career change, to going back to work five days a week, if Helen had done that, in hindsight, whatever that looks like. The reason I think that's so important is, once you've made the decision and once you've moved forward, you'll get into the messy middle.  You'll get into being really busy, you'll get into sometimes things feeling hard; you will inevitably, because it's a shades-of-grey decision, have moments where you worry you've made the wrong decision. So, our idea for action here is called "why watch".  So, when you've made your decision, write down somewhere that you can keep coming back to that's visible, maybe this isn't pen and paper, maybe this is the notes section of your phone, it might just be, "My top three whys", whatever you want to call it, and just write down the three reasons why you're making that decision. For me, I was thinking, when I was moving to Amazing If, I was actually really clear on the three reasons why I was making that decision, once I'd stopped thinking and started actually making a decision!  My rationale was (1) I was going to live my values even more, (2) it was a unique chance to create and grow a business with a best friend, and (3) I could have a positive impact on people's careers. 

So, even in my worst-case scenario that I would have had in that first section of the diamond, and I was like, "It's a disaster, Helen and I fall out, the business goes bust", all of those things, I was like, "But all of those three things would have stayed true.  I would have had at least the opportunity to try and do all of those three things. I think there's a few times where I have made decisions in my career that haven't gone as well as I had anticipated.  And what has really reassured me, and also given me a bit of grit to keep going, is that I did know my whys.  So, there is one career decision I can think of that wasn't years and years ago where I remember, you know when you feel like you've done all of the right things?  I probably had had the conversations, I probably had done all the bits of the diamond, at least to some extent, and it just didn't feel like it was going that well, or I hadn't really found my fit and I was losing a bit of confidence. But I think I was clear about my why, the drivers behind that decision, so I did know what was going to be true in 12 months' time that wasn't true today, and that remained the same.  And I did know what my 1, 2 and 3 were.  So, even though that didn't mean that some days didn't feel really hard, or some months you didn't finish thinking, "Maybe I have got some doubts", I do think it helped me to keep going, it gave me the time that I needed to probably think about, because there is uncertainty and there are things outside of our control, "This isn't quite working out as I'd hoped", but you can keep going while you then think about, "Okay, so what now and what next?"

That is sometimes the reality of a decision.  You've made a really difficult decision; as Helen talked about, she made a decision to try and work a three-day week.  I remember her working that three-day week, and I have never known her so stressed.  So, on paper, you might be like, "That's really sensible", because she's trying to do a really balanced, rather than go straight back into work after a big change in your life; on paper, you can see sometimes how things all add up, but it is sometimes only when we get into something that you just then realise it's either not for you, maybe there's some new awareness you've got about yourself; or maybe things just change around you.  That awareness and what's happening around you, again, you just don't know what that looks like.  But I think, if you have done your why watch, it will help you, and I think it does help you in the tougher moments.

Helen Tupper: So, let me just summarise then those four different points in the diamond and the four ideas for action.  So, point one is to get some distance from the decision, and the idea for action was to do a decision dress rehearsal; point two was to get that data on the decision, and that was the one that Sarah talked about, really thinking about facts versus feelings; point three was to make sure that you are discussing the decision, but the idea for action there was to expand on the experiences; and point four was all about the drivers of the decision, and the idea for action there was all about doing the why watch. As I said, we will visually bring this to life on the PodSheet, so that you can get all of those ideas for action in a nice, summarised way.  We'll also talk about it on PodPlus.  PodPlus is at 9.00am every Thursday morning, so it's a live conversation where you can ask questions and you can see us bring this to life.  If you can't make that on a Thursday morning, it's also recorded and on YouTube.  And all the links for that stuff will be on the show notes on Apple, or you can always email us.  We're just helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com, and we will point you in the right direction.

Sarah Ellis: So, we really hope that has been practically useful.  We would love to hear from you if you put that into action and you are working through a difficult career decision at the moment.  Let us know, what is that decision; let us know, did we miss anything from that diamond.  I'm not sure then what shape it would have to become, but we are open to considering new shapes!

Helen Tupper: We can change the shape!

Sarah Ellis: And, what was most useful; what have you done.  Is there anything else that maybe you've done in the past when you've had a difficult career decision that's been really helpful that maybe we haven't talked about?  We always really love hearing from you, whether that's about today's episode, or if you've got ideas for things that you just need help with.  Maybe it's for you, maybe it's for your team.  Again, please do email us; we love to hear from you.  And if you have a moment to rate or subscribe or review our podcast, it makes a massive difference to us being able to share Squiggly all around the world.

Helen Tupper: Oh, and recently, we were on the front page of Apple, which helped us to reach some more people too.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah, that was exciting!

Helen Tupper: That was exciting, that was a happy moment.  Thank you for following us and being part of the community, and lots of people celebrate those moments with us as well, which is really kind.

Sarah Ellis: So, that's everything for this week and we'll talk to you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.