How to lead with authenticity

Timestamps 

00:00:00: Introduction 
00:02:23: Leaders are not born, they're found 
00:05:03: Leadership is not management 
00:05:53: Simple leadership definition 
00:06:27: How leadership has changed 
00:08:49: Being human and admitting mistakes 
00:11:05: We are at our best being ourselves 
00:13:45: Emotional intelligence 
00:15:45: The value of mentoring 
00:18:21: René's career advice 
00:20:40: A short clip from The Uncertainty Experts 
 

Interview Transcription 

Helen Tupper: Hello and welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Today's episode is part of our Ask the Expert series and we're going to be diving into the topic of Leadership.  But if this is your first time listening, let me just take a few seconds to tell you what this podcast is all about.  So, it is a weekly show.  We now have over 230 episodes, and we started the podcast just to help people with careers today, the ups and downs, ins and outs, of everything Squiggly.  We hope that it is a podcast that you can come back to, that feels really practical, that has lots of ideas and support for you, so that you can take what you listen and do something with it. 

So, often you'll hear from myself and Sarah talking about topics and our experiences, and sometimes we bring in experts, like we have today.  Today, you're going to hear Sarah and me talk to René Carayol, a world-renowned leadership expert.  And together, we explore the skills that contribute to effective leadership, how we can all demonstrate leadership in our day jobs, regardless of our level or our role, and also how you can get started with intentional leadership, if it feels like something that you want to focus on and ultimately be known for in your career. 

This series of Ask the Expert is supported by The Uncertainty Experts, an immersive learning experience, which is scientifically proven for you to reduce the fear of the unknown.  And you can sign up to join the next series of this unique programme in November, where you'll learn how to tackle the negative impacts of uncertainty, reduce your anxiety, increase your empathy and also improve your ability to make decisions and solve problems. 

We have a discount for anybody who wants to join the programme, and all the details are in the show notes.  Or, if you can't find the show notes, we do get messages from people going, "Where are the show notes?", just email us if it's easier.  It's just Helen&Sarah@squigglycareers.com, and then we can get back to you with all the details. 

At the end of the episode, you'll also hear from one of the Uncertainty Experts, John Peters, who is an ex-fighter pilot turned author and leadership coach, a very good example of Squiggly, on the importance of reflection and why leaders need to create mental space in order to succeed.  So, let's get started with me and Sarah talking to René about leadership. 

Hello, René, and welcome to the podcast. 

René Carayol: Hi, Helen, it's my pleasure to be here. 

Helen Tupper: So, we thought we'd start with potentially quite a big question, that I feel could dominate this entire conversation, but really interested to get your thoughts on it which is, in the context of leadership, which is our focus today, do you think or believe that leaders are born, like the natural leader that's always going to be a leader, or do you think they are made and developed through the experiences they have in their careers? 

René Carayol: So, this is a great question.  It's a question I'm asked more than any other, and to give it a context, there was a time when everyone believed leaders were born, it's some sort of magical gift that you have that up you come, out from the soil and everyone follows you from day one.  Let me just reassure everyone, that is complete nonsense; leaders are not born. 

The next thing people think, "Well, can I make a leader, can they be made?"  Well again, they can be developed, but not made.  I don't believe leaders are born, I don't believe leaders are made, I believe leaders are found.  There's a leader in every single person who will listen to this podcast.  There's a leader inside -- every one of us can be a leader if we choose to be.  No one can make you a leader; it's your choice.   

It's not a set of skills, it's not a bit of training; training doesn't make leaders, training makes managers.  What makes a leader is something inside of me that makes me believe in myself, and I'm prepared to be courageous and be bold and stand up front and be the leader.  And every single organisation, business, has tons of leaders, but they don't notice them.  And the big clue is, look for those who can influence and persuade, especially those without authority; they're your leaders. 

I'll give you a real worked example that makes it very clear to everyone.  You decide to have a pizza night, everyone's going out for a pizza.  You say to Sarah, "Sarah, can you go around and gather everyone up?  Tomorrow night, we're going out for a pizza".  There's something about Sarah that she influences no one.  When you got out for the pizza, there's just the two of you.  But you go to Helen the next week and hundreds of people turn up; why?   

Helen's been able to influence and persuade people, she reads people, she understands what I wish to use, she understands what tone to use, she understands when to ask, she understands when to cajole, when to coax, when to instruct, when to be forceful, when to nudge.  She's got this whole bunch of emotional intelligence that she brings into play.  Follow most people who are able to get loads of people to turn up for the pizza, because they are your leaders.   

In today's businesses, we need as many of them as we can get, because we're forever trying to change and transform things.  They're your change agents, they're the ones that encourage people to try doing things different.  And remember, leadership is not management.  There's only one way to do management; leadership is completely different.  One size fits no one.  It's to be the best version of you that you can be. 

Helen Tupper: And is that how you would define it?  I think we've touched on a few things and I'm conscious that people listening to it, in one way it's liberating because it's, "Oh, leadership in this context is liberating, it's the ability to influence and to persuade and to bring people to a pizza, or bring people to a project", might be the more work thing; but in some ways, it's harder, because there are so many things there that you've mentioned.  It's so individual, it's so personal.  Is there a simple definition that we can get to of what leadership is? 

René Carayol: So, I would say a simple definition is how you energise people towards your vision.  So, you've got to start with, you've got to have a dream, a vision, a plan, where you want to take them; not a strategy, not a detailed plan on all the different things you're going to do.  It's just, we're going to take that car, we're going to cross the road.  Now, how do you energise the workforce to feel great about doing that?  That's leadership.  

In today's context, whereas before it was, initiate the plans, solve the problems; that's management.  I think today, it boils down to, create an environment where others can flourish. 

Sarah Ellis: René, I'm interested in, over the past 18 months, if leadership was already changing in the way that you've described it, from it being less about your position on an organisational chart, and more about your ability to bring people together in pursuit of the progress that you're trying to make, and you work with people all over the world, lots of different organisations, lots of different individual leaders across the world, how do you think the last 18 months has impacted leadership?  Do you think it has accelerated some of the trends that you were already seeing; are some skills or some capabilities now appreciated even more than they were; is there anything that worries you as well about what you've seen over the past 18 months? 

René Carayol: Let's work it backwards.  What we're hearing today is there's a bunch of leaders who would really want their people back in their place of work.  There's another bunch of leaders who are consulting, "Where would you really like to work from?"  In my little straw poll that is not statistically significant, every chief executive male that I'm coaching has instructed their people on when they're coming back to the office.  Every woman that I'm coaching has gone through a consultation period, "What would you like to do?" 

To me, that starts to bring alive where new-age leadership is.  The days of instructing, being directive, command control, are long gone, long, long gone.  That's 30 years ago.  Today, you're not the experts, you're not even a subject matter expert, you're not the person that knows best about everything, you're not the cleverest man in the room.  We want the person that people will follow, the person that can enable people to do the things they never thought they could do, and sometimes the things they never wanted to do.  And it's the person who you trust, who you believe in, who creates the environment that you want to belong to, you want to be part of. 

Most of the work of the leader is not being clever, it's not initiating strategy, it's not solving problems; it's working really hard to create an environment that people want to really be part of and give even more for.  Location, irrelevant.  They don't need to be sitting in front of me for me to be the person that's going to excite them, look after them, look out for them, be there for them. 

Sarah Ellis: I also wonder about, and I know you write about this a lot, because I've been reading it this week, about the sense of belonging that you feel when you're in those organisations that are asking you about how you feel, where you do have honest leaders, who are very prepared to have the confidence to say, "I don't have all of the answers", because I do think that's one of the potential mistakes I sometimes see with perhaps newer leaders.   

People may be leading in some capacity for the first time, or the pressure that sometimes I think people put on themselves, "Now I'm in a certain position", maybe or, "Because I'm trying to make some change happen, I feel like I should be able to create everything, do everything, almost come up with everything"; and actually, the best leaders that I've worked for, one of the things that they all have in common is they've all been really prepared to say to me, "I'm no sure, Sarah; what do you think?" or, "I feel a bit stuck".   

We are all human, and I think the kindness and care and the humanity that you now see from leaders, of course they're the people we want to spend time with.  They're the people where we all feel like we can belong, regardless of where we come from and who we are as individuals. 

René Carayol: The advice is, "Fess up".  No one's perfect.  And, how many Cabinet ministers have we seen who, in the reshuffle just recently, have lost their position because they couldn't say, "I just didn't see it coming".  And the truth is, the leader takes their team into the darkest jungle.  They're four days coming through the undergrowth, they're running low on water, and there are mosquitoes, tsetse flies, it's just horrible.  After four days, the leader climbs up the tallest tree, looks around and says, "Guys, I'm really sorry, wrong jungle"! 

We actually value the fact that the leader was brave enough to say, "I've got it wrong", we'll trust you even more.  Getting things wrong and owning up to it is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength.  And what we see and what I'm coaching to all of my leaders is, the more vulnerable you are, the more you demonstrate that you are human, the more that you fess up to your mistakes, the more your people will try harder without fear, because they know you're as human as they are.  The only thing we add is, the only mistake is the one you don't learn from. 

Helen Tupper: And so, René, we talked about earlier, when we were defining and understanding what leadership can be, that there's a leader inside all of us; but if someone is listening to this and they think, I feel like I've got a leader inside of me and I want to let that leader loose and to become a more senior, or more impactful, or a bigger leader, what would you say that you think they should start doing? 

René Carayol: It's a great question.  So, in my last book, Spike, I was trying to lead the strengths-based revolution.  And what that means is, every single one of us is brilliant at something; no one is brilliant at everything.  Let's find the two or three things we're outstanding at, and let's build our leadership code around those two or three things, which are near Olympian standard already, but they're not applied learning.  It's not geography, maths, history, chemistry; it's, "I'm a good communicator, I'm really patient, I follow things through, I do the big picture, I'm a little cautious, I check things out two or three times and ensure that we don't fail". 

Now, whatever your spike, and we call them a spike; when you've found your spike, build your leadership code the way you're going to do it around your strengths.  I don't think you should try to be, "I want to be bigger, I want to be more impactful"; forget that.  Every style works.  There's room on this continuum for every different personality.  The biggest cause of failure, "I'm going to be Barack Obama.  I'm going to give the most tremendous speeches you've ever seen", and it doesn’t quite come off.  Let's find your own style that works for you. 

The biggest cause of failure is when I think I need to be this.  We're at our very best being ourselves.  The advice I would give you is to be the very best version of yourself.  We are now getting used to, especially through the pandemic, that there are many different sorts of leaders.  I would say that what we're saying at the moment is, those leaders who are working best today are those who understand emotional intelligence best.  And this is the bit I think is the practical piece. 

When I talk about management, I mean plans, tasks, strategies, KPIs, all the things that are tangible and can be measured; if you don't do them, you go out of business tomorrow.  We call that the hardware.  One size fits everyone and it's IQ.  You can learn all the bits to do with management; we teach that.  But do you know, one of the frustrations of life, the IQ you're born with, you can't change.  By the time you get to 60, 70, it's moved a tiny bit.   

The bit that I'm talking about, leadership, is vision, people, teams, culture, the EQ, the emotional quotient.  We call it the software, the bigger difference.  The great news about EQ, you can be as clumsy at it this month, and within a year you can be one of the world's best.  You can learn how to be emotionally intelligent. 

When I worked with Daniel Goleman back in the day, who wrote the seminal book, Emotional Intelligence, I was pushing him on an interview, I was pushing and pushing him to describe emotional intelligence.  Eventually he said, "Super interpersonal skills".  Think about it for a moment.  We can improve that.  I am just going to better at connecting with people.  I'm going to get better at my engagement with people.  I'm going to go out of my way to ensure I leave a positive impression on every person that I meet.  That's emotional intelligence, and everyone wants to get better at it. 

Another story.  So, Ross McEwan was the Chief Executive of Royal Bank of Scotland.  I did a session with him where he was changing the top team of the Royal Bank of Scotland.  They were all invited to come down to London to IBM's Head Office, and it was no badges, no names, just meet at 9.00 for coffee.  This was the new top 100.  Him and I were in there from 6.00 preparing the day.  We were going to introduce them into his brand of leadership, what the vision was, what they needed to do. 

They started to come into the room and Ross stood at the door.  When everyone came in, they didn't have a badge, they didn't have a name card, Ross knew their first name, "Hello, David, how are you?"  He had a unique sentence for everyone who came in, "David, you ran the retail business in Glasgow brilliantly", David came in.  Next was Janet; he knew Janet's first name.  He had a unique sentence for her.  Guess what that atmosphere was like?  I'd never seen anything like it.  That's emotional intelligence. 

Sarah Ellis: Do you see that in the organisations that you work with?  I'm always so interested in mentoring.  So, people talk to us a lot about mentoring, "Do I need to ask for a mentor?"  Organisations sometimes talk to us about, "Do I need formal mentoring, or do we just let it happen more informally?  Is it just everyone's accountability, so is it very organic or do we need to put structures around it?"  I'd just be interested in any insights you have around where you've seen in work.  

René Carayol: I suppose, if we look at the most progressive organisations, they would have a mentor, mentors available who help you be the best version of you that you can possibly be.  They know you, they care about you, they invest in you, they listen to you, they advise you, they counsel you, and they may even confront you.  Then there's coaches.  The coaches try to make you the best you can be for the organisation or the position you're in at the moment.  Then you've got the advocates who are going to talk about you when you're not around.  They're going to talk you up at every opportunity they can.  Then you've got the sponsors.  The sponsor's task is one thing only: get you promoted.   

Now, you might have one or two or three or four of those.  What you shouldn't have is none of those.  And if you want to get started, the easiest way to get started is to find yourself a mentor.  What I would do, and the advice I would give, is to go and find someone really senior; aim as high as you really can and look for someone who behaves in a way that you would like to replicate.  They do something in a way that you just wish you could do that; the way they talk to people, the way they communicate, the way they lead, the way they think, whatever it is, and then have the courage to go and ask them to spend an hour with you a month. 

Now, if it starts to get a bit slippery and a bit difficult, use flattery; it works every single time.  You put the hour in the diary, you put the agenda together, you take all the work away from them.  And remember, the only reason that a mentor and a mentee keep meeting is both parties are getting something out of it.  So, you've got to be really open, you've got to be curious about them and they're curious about you. 

Today, one of the most powerful things we see is the reverse mentoring.  I'm mentoring someone from a different generation; I'm mentoring someone from a different race; I'm mentoring someone from a different gender; I'm mentoring someone from a different faith.  Whilst I'm giving them a bit of seniority, they enable me to walk in their shoes to see a completely different way of life.  We both gain out of it.  Again, let me repeat: the one thing you can't do is nothing.  Mentor, coach, advocate or sponsor. 

If you're like me, don't just get one of each of them, get many of each of them.  Really do accelerate your career trajectory. 

Helen Tupper: We would love to ask for one more tiny bit of help, just before you go, which is your best piece of career advice.  I know you must have so much that you could share with us all, but is there one bit that you think is particularly pertinent to help people right now who will be listening to this episode? 

René Carayol: You're right, I've had loads and loads of career advice.  The simple one is the one that we've spoken about, and it was a moment of never believing in myself.  When I left university, I started working at Marks & Spencer, and every single day I'd come to reception and leave my personality at reception, because I'm going to my place at work.  I was really good at being whoever my manager needed me to be, I was.  I was that chameleon, but I never brought the authentic me; I never thought that would be valued.  I had imposter syndrome alive and kicking inside of me. 

Then one day, one of my managers just pulled me up and said, "It's time for you to be true to yourself.  You need to just be comfortable being you.  It's our problem if you're not comfortable".  I thought about it for a long time and one day, I came in and I just decided to be me.  That was the first day I became a leader.  I just was so good at being me; I was a natural.  I realised I'd come in every day and tried to be someone else, and being really clumsy at it, not getting it quite right, using words I didn't quite understand, behaving in a way that didn't make me feel great. 

The more I invested in being me, the more promotions I got.  That's the best thing you could ever do, is be the best version of you that you could ever possibly be.  And believe you me, when it starts working for you, it starts working for everyone else as well. 

Helen Tupper: Thanks so much for listening to this episode today.  We wanted to share a short clip of John Peters, who's one of The Uncertainty Experts, talking about why leaders also need to be able to press pause and reflect on their experiences, in order to move forward and increase their impact.  If you do want to join The Uncertainty Experts in November for that unique learning experience, all the details are in the show notes, and you can also sign up there for our weekly PodMail, which will make sure that you get all of our Squiggly tools and resources that we share for free each week.   

Thanks so much for listening, everyone. 

Katherine Templar Lewis: Hello, I'm Katherine Templar Lewis and I'm the lead scientist on The Uncertainty Experts.  John Peters was an officer in the RAF who was captured and tortured in the Gulf War, but like all The Uncertainty Experts, he used the strategies he learned to survive in the shadows to become a leading light.  John worked through his trauma by writing and became a best-selling author.  He has now evolved the skills trained into him as a fighter pilot to become a world-renowned leadership coach.  Here's John on the importance of reflection. 

John Peters: In an uncertain world, we need leaders to adapt, accept failures, but learn from them and move forward, and that's really the main thing I learned from the Gulf.  My suggestion in dealing with uncertainty is, most people say, "What have you done?" rather I would say, "What have you learned?"   

The depth of learning is this idea of reflection.  We need, if you want, real, original thinking, innovative thinking.  We need to create space to enable that, and leaders are, if you look at their diaries, they are just packed back-to-back, even worse with Zoom; whereas actually, you need space to just be, but to enable that deeper level of exploration, because we need fundamentally new solutions, but we're fixed in old habits.  

Katherine Templar Lewis: Now, what John is describing is what we call in the science world, "metacognition".  Metacognition is, put simply, thinking about one's thinking.  By consciously reflecting on your own thinking, you can recognise patterns, giving you the ability to adopt a growth mindset in the face of problem-solving. 

Now, research has shown us that it's also a vital skill in leadership.  It gives us self-awareness and emotional intelligence that can help leaders improve their interpersonal skills rapidly.  It helps you recognise and overcome your own implicit advice and make better strategic decisions. 

Now, as we've shown through The Uncertainty Experts, the good news is it's easily learned.  Practise simply stopping to assess your own thoughts, identify the various thought paths you go down, and acknowledge those that don't serve you well.  Repeat this process over and over again, each time discarding the thoughts that prevent positive behaviours.  Each time you modify your thoughts, you will open your thinking to the most effective strategies and the best choices.