Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction 00:00:57: Books behind this week's episode 00:02:46: The benefits of walking on the body and the brain 00:05:42: Mindfulness, meditation and other reasons to walk 00:11:57: Medication versus lifestyle changes 00:13:43: Stress is not always bad 00:15:04: Sympathetic vs parasympathetic nervous systems 00:18:33: Self-assessment of relaxing, eating, moving and sleeping 00:21:52: Scheduling walks and in different ways 00:27:08: The target market for the books 00:31:00: Three questions to ask yourself every day 00:31:40: Learning, walking and the mind 00:00:00: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  In the next few episodes, we're focusing on something a little bit different.  We're going to talk about some of the factors outside of work that we think will help you to succeed in work, and the topics we're going to cover include health, sleep, money and relationships. Helen Tupper: The big stuff! Sarah Ellis: Yeah, just those small topics that might be useful along the way!  And for every episode, we've both chosen a different book to read, because we are very mindful that we are not the experts in any of these areas and probably get lots of things wrong, and we're going to focus our conversations together about what we've learned, how it's helped us, and hopefully how it might help you too. So, today's conversation, we're starting with health; so, Helen, what book did you choose and why did you choose that book? Helen Tupper: I feel like I'm on a game show!  Would it be the most fun game show, about books that we've chosen? Sarah Ellis: I don't know, I'd find that game show quite lots of fun! Helen Tupper: So, Sarah, the book that I have chosen for today's podcast episode is Dr Rangan Chatterjee, The 4 Pillar Plan: How to Relax, Eat, Move and Sleep Your Way to a Longer, Healthier Life. Sarah Ellis: And what made you choose that book? Helen Tupper: Well, I think Dr Rangan is the go-to guru at the moment on all things, very popular, isn't he?  You see him all over Instagram sharing his words of wisdom, and I had never actually read one of his books.  So, I'd engaged with lots of his stuff on social media, but I hadn't really sat down and really spent some time with his thinking in a written form, and so it just gave me a bit of an opportunity to do that. Also, everyone who is listening can't see this, but it's a very nice cover, it's quite aesthetically pleasing, it's a book with pictures and colour, Sarah, so I thought, "I've got four books to read very quickly for these podcasts, and so maybe this one might have some -- it does have some tables, it does have some things that you can tick and fill in, and that was quite appealing to me.  What about you; what book did you choose and why? Sarah Ellis: Very different style of book to you.  So, I chose a book which is part of the DO series of books, so Do Walk: Navigate Earth, Mind and Body Step by Step, and the author is Libby Delana.  The reason that I chose the book is I have actually been for a walk with Libby.  So, Libby was at DO Lectures, which is something that I went to recently in deepest, darkest Wales, and Libby was there giving a talk alongside Cheryl Strayed, so they were talking about the benefits of walking, and I knew that she'd written this book. I also really like the DO books generally, the series of books, so I thought, "I'm going to dive a bit deeper into that", especially as you know when you've met someone, you feel a greater sense of connection with them.  It wasn't just me, to be fair, it was a group of us, but we did go on a very beautiful walk together, so it felt like a good follow-up from that experience. Helen Tupper: That's a really nice story.  Yeah, I haven't had a conversation with Dr Rangan.  Yet!  But maybe I will after this, who knows?  Okay, so question number one about the book: what are three things that you learnt from it about health? Sarah Ellis: So, the first thing I learnt, which didn't surprise me, but it's nice to have something confirmed or reinforced, is that walking is really good for us in lots of ways.  So, actually it's not a very research-based or academic book at all, but a couple of bits that I picked out from it were some of those stats and facts that I just found interesting.  So, Stanford University did some research about how walking improves creativity, and most of us might go, "Yeah, I get that, we go for a walk, we get unstuck and it helps us to think things through", but it doesn't just improve creativity a little bit, it's by 60%; so, it's by a lot.  Then she also dives into Brain World Magazine, who knew! Helen Tupper: Subscribes instantly! Sarah Ellis: Yeah!  You say that.  I have looked at both of these articles; I went into a rabbit hole then of reading the articles. Helen Tupper: Of course you have! Sarah Ellis: They were talking about how, and I did find this fascinating, "The brain structures that allow us to walk are also the same brain structures that allow us to access our most sophisticated cognitive abilities".  So, when we are trying to do things that are hard, you know when you feel like you're spiralling or stuck, often there's that phrase, and we're going to talk about sleep in another episode, you know what people say, "I used to sleep on it"?  I also think you could also substitute that with, "You should walk on it". Helen Tupper: I like it. Sarah Ellis: So, before you make a difficult decision, or if you've got something where you feel like you are stuck, go for a walk and just see whether that helps. Helen Tupper: So, you know that creativity percentage, is that from general walking, or is that to your point, when you get stuck, going for a walk at that point, that's when it makes you more creative; or is it, go for a walk a day and it increases your baseline creativity? Sarah Ellis: So generally, it makes you more creative, in terms of they gave people almost tests for how creative can you be in response to this thing.  What they did find, which I was like, "This bit I find less interesting, because I definitely don't want to do this", it actually doesn't matter; you could walk on a treadmill inside, or you could obviously walk outside and walk in nature, and we'll talk a bit more about the difference between those two things later; it's the same thing.  So, you could walk around your house, and that has the same impact.  I think they thought going outside, they would find a much bigger difference than they did.  So, just any movement basically is good for us. Also, the other thing I found interesting is, recently we've done some walk-and-talks in our Amazing If team for the first time, and I definitely found that you have a different kind of conversation and it's a really interesting thing to do.  But apparently, if you walk side-by-side with someone, so we did them remotely, we were both going for a walk at the same time with someone in our team, but we weren't together; if you walk side-by-side, there are extra benefits in terms of connection, which again, I guess you sort of get. Helen Tupper: Yeah, I've heard of that. Sarah Ellis: So, that was the first thing that I learnt.  You feel like it should be good for you, and it sort of is, and it's not that hard to find a lot of evidence to prove that's true. The second one, which is perhaps more personal to me, I think I've always beaten myself up and felt like I should be able to be more mindful and better at meditation.  I've read so many studies and articles through the work that we do, where I get really fed up that the answer to everything is mindfulness and meditation, probably because I'm not very good at either of those things, and I don't find it very, again it's almost a bit embarrassing to admit, but I don't find it very motivating.  That's probably one of the reasons I'm not very good at it; I go, "I don't want to just sit and meditate, or listen to somebody try and get me to meditate".  I don't find that very inspiring, for whatever reason.  But I do recognise how frequently I see it come up as a really useful thing. Helen Tupper: It's quite an anti-Sarah thing, I would say, in that your brain is thoughtful and reflective and considered, and so I would put meditation as something that would fit with your brain.  So, it's interesting that you have such a, dare I say, fixed mindset about it in terms of how it could help. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think because I've tried and failed maybe a few times.  It's just never quite connected.  However, the good news is, I basically realised that you can be really mindful and meditate while walking.  I think I had made the assumption that it has to equal sitting in one place, eyes closed, crossed legs, very stereotypical, what you imagine when you visualise someone meditating.  There's actually a whole section in the book about how it really helps with being mindful, and the same practising of meditation. Now, there are some things I think you definitely need to think about, if that's why you are walking.  So, whether you're going to listen to something, or whether it's just the act of walking.  But if you're listening to a podcast that's about comedy or food, which I sometimes do, that probably doesn't quite do the same thing. So, one of the things that Libby talks about in the book, so Libby does a morning walk and she wakes up at 5.00am to go for this morning walk; I'm ignoring that bit, because I'm never going to do that, and she walks a long way every day.  She's done it for eight or nine years, it's a really, really long time.  So for her, it is a practice, a true practice.  It's become a ritual, it's something she does every day, she's very, very committed to it, and I was like, "That's quite interesting", because if you think about, "What are you walking for?" sometimes I think we walk in a very purposeful way, as in to go to the shops to get something.  That's quite different to where walking is the thing itself. Sometimes I'm like, "I'm going for a walk because I want to listen to a podcast".  That's quite different to, "I'm going for a walk, because I want to give my brain a break, or my brain the ability to think differently".  What is the reason for walking?  If it is that, then you probably want to maybe just have the space to not be listening to something, and maybe you want to do it by yourself as well, the whole, "Do you walk with someone, or do you walk by yourself?" Helen Tupper: What are you walking for, is a lovely question, and then the other thing when you were talking then that made me think was, "Is there a distinction --", I don't know the answer to this but, "Is there a distinction between meditating versus being meditative?"  Meditative to me means a state of concentrated intent, in a way, like you're shutting everything else, so a meditative state.  So, I could do that, of course, by shutting off the rest of my thoughts and sitting there meditating; or, I could do it by just going for a walk and just focusing my mind on one thing.  So, I wonder if there's a distinction, which is where the walking with intent comes into it. Sarah Ellis: And then, the last thing was that probably the most important time to walk is when you don't want to.  I did recognise this.  You know in your busiest days, the days where you really feel like you've not got time for it, they are probably the days where you would get the most benefit from it.  Now, what Libby describes in the book is, for her it's completely non-optional now, it's who she is, it's how she lives her life. But if you're thinking about -- and for me, I love variety.  I am never getting up every day at 5.00am to do a walk.  But almost spotting and recognising those really busy weeks, the busy months, and creating space in those days and those weeks for walks, if you think then about, "What am I walking for?  I'm walking to de-stress, to find a bit of space in a busy day, to make sure I can still think creatively, even if I've got to do a lot in a day". There is a really good quote in the book from Hippocrates, where he says, "If you're in a bad mood, go for a walk.  If you're still in a bad mood, go for another walk", which really made me smile!  I can just imagine myself looping and looping.  And even I did find it interesting that now doctors do prescribe walks in a natural setting, so they do make that distinction, as in things like forest bathing and going into green spaces, to improve mood and decrease anxiety, stress and depression. So, though she doesn't really dive into those things lots in the book, I think it's one of her points about walking is, "It's free, it's simple, most of us could make time to go for a walk at some point in our day, even if it was just for 15 minutes".  And I do think at the start of the pandemic, and this will be different I know for different people, lots of people did that, almost because there was the restriction of, "Well, you can only go out once a day", so suddenly everyone went, "Crikey, okay, well I'm going to go out for a walk, and that's maybe the one time that I can get out and about". Then, I think lots of us have almost unlearned something that was probably quite useful for us, because now we're all maybe working in a hybrid way, or perhaps you're going back into an office a bit more.  So, it did make me just stop and think about when are you walking, when does walking work really well for you; and Libby's book isn't prescriptive, she's not saying, "You should do it my way", she's saying, "This is what I've done and this is why it's worked so well for me".  Then I think, as you read through it, I very much took the bits that I thought, "That would work really well for me", and then I ignored the bits where she talks about it's freezing cold and she still goes for a walk! She's been a creative director, Libby has, so the photography in the book is beautiful, and there's just a picture of her with loads of clothes on and almost icicles all over her face and I was like, "Okay, well I won't do that bit!  But then, there's the bits where she's in beautiful settings on the beach and stuff, and I was like, "I'll do that bit"! Helen Tupper: "I'll do mindful walking when it works for me!" Sarah Ellis: So, what about you, what did you learn from the book?  How are you going to help me be loads healthier? Helen Tupper: Well, actually, there's some interesting points of connection between some of things that you said.  So obviously, Dr Rangan Chatterjee is a doctor, a medical doctor. Sarah Ellis: A real-life doctor! Helen Tupper: A real-life doctor, and he does prescribe things like you are saying that Libby has advocated.  So, his perspective that he frames the whole book in is that, as a doctor, for a long time what he has seen is people being medicated with some form of drug for some illness they exhibit, and I'm being very broad about that, but basically a drug being the first answer to someone's ailment.  And what he has realised through a lot of the consultations that he has had with patients is that drugs first isn't necessarily the right answer for everybody.  It might be for lots of people, but what he says is a lot of the symptoms are a result of their lifestyle.  So, what you need to do is look at their lifestyle in order to resolve the symptoms, not give people drugs, which actually might not solve it over the long term; so very, very similar basis to the walking. The other thing is, I read this book in parallel with The 5am Club, by Robin Sharma, which I feel like you would never pick up that book, because of what it's called.  I don't even think you'd really love the book.  But within the book, which is some slightly philosophical story about life, it's a bit weird, but within the book it talks about every day, this 20/20/20 thing.  You should do 20 minutes of movement, 20 minutes of reflection, like the walking-type thing you talked about, and then 20 minutes of learning.  I feel like there's some connected stuff going on here between what Dr Rangan says, what Libby's saying, and also what that book that you would never buy says.  I'm giving you a shortcut to that book, so you never need to read it! But three things that I have taken away specifically from Dr Rangan Chatterjee's book about this 4 Pillar Plan, the first is that stress isn't always bad, but it's a problem if it's sustained.  The reason this made me think was, I think sometimes we go, "All stress is bad, it's bad to be stressed.  If your work is causing you stress, then you're not working well". Actually, what he says is that sometimes stress can be quite an enabling function, because if you're working on something you've not done before and you're having to work at pace and it feels quite challenging, then that can be quite a stressful situation.  But it can take you to places that you might not have been before, and it can stretch you in ways that you might not have done before; and that actually stress in that context, over a short period of time, can move you into places that you might not have got to otherwise.  The problem he says is when it's sustained. So, I just think it's interesting that rather than just dismiss stress as something bad, almost see it as a stress scaled, how long has it gone on for; and on a scale of one to ten, how stressful is this situation?  If it hasn't gone on very long and it's probably under five, then it might just be a forcing function for a moment to get you to get something done.  But if it is over five and it's for longer than feels comfortable, then there might be a situation than you need to work through.  So, that was the first thing that stuck for me. The second is the difference between our sympathetic and our parasympathetic nervous system. Sarah Ellis: Okay, tell me more. Helen Tupper: Tell you more?  Okay, so I've actually got my notes from the book here.  I've underlined it, and I've got a little page marker.  So, our automatic nervous system regulates our automatic processes, so the things that you do without thinking: breathing, digestion, all that great stuff.  And in this system, this automatic nervous system, you have the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic. The sympathetic one is the one that causes you to release stress-response hormones, like cortisol.  So, when I'm saying for a short period of time, that stuff can help you and it makes your heart beat faster, it's necessary for our survival, it gives us energy in our muscles; it's that kind of fight response you need sometimes to a situation.  So, if you're stressed, you're getting lots of that stuff going on.  That's all your sympathetic nervous system. But what we really need to do is make sure it's balanced with our parasympathetic nervous system.  So, this is the one that you get from rest and relaxation. Sarah Ellis: Sounds good! Helen Tupper: Yeah, it's not bad to have the stress, but you've got to balance it out.  So, if you are not getting some of the things that basically slow your body down, that helps to respond to some of those hormones that have been activated when you're stressed, then you're not balancing yourself out.  So, for a lot of people, what they need to do is work on the parasympathetic balancing stuff, the stuff that gives you the rest and relaxation, and that's why that's so important.  So, I hadn't looked at that before. But interesting, so this parasympathetic one that gets triggered by rest and relaxation, that sort of stuff helps your digestion, for example; helps you to sleep better.  Again, it's just better for your body.  So, I think when people are stressed and maybe you're not sleeping, or your food's not going down properly, it's all very linked, I thought was quite interesting. Sarah Ellis: Does he give examples of what that rest and relaxation should look like? Helen Tupper: Yeah, I've got notes on this page over here, Sarah! Sarah Ellis: You really have.  I can actually see you getting all your Post-it Notes out for me! Helen Tupper: Some of the things that I wrote down in this section: make sure you've got some me time in your daily routine. Sarah Ellis: Okay, so that's very similar to the Dr Bill Mitchell. Helen Tupper: Yeah, a moment for me, screen-free time, so there's lots of screen time that can trigger that sympathetic nervous system, so the cortisol, the stress hormones, basically.  And so, switch off the screens and you reduce the risk that that stuff's generating.  Sarah is nodding at me while I'm talking everybody, because she's like, "There you go, Helen"!  Gratitude, which I'm going to talk a little bit more about later, and box breathing actually, which we've talked about before. Sarah Ellis: I've done box breathing, yeah. Helen Tupper: So, for people that don't know the box breathing, it's like, breathe in for four seconds, hold your breath for four seconds, breathe out for four seconds, hold that out breath for four seconds and then just cycle round it.  I have found that very helpful, and I guess that's that meditative thing.  That isn't meditating, but just that act of mindful breathing is quite a meditative process.  So, there you go, that is what I learned from the book. Sarah Ellis: I would say you are someone who takes your health seriously, and know quite a lot about your health.  You're very intentional about what you eat, you're really good at looking after yourself, you know what's in food and you love food, you're really interested in food.  I think I love food, but in a slightly different way to you! Helen Tupper: Curly Wurlys! Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I do really like a Curly Wurly!  Did reading it make you think about doing anything differently for yourself, or have you already done anything differently for yourself? Helen Tupper: I have, Sarah!  So, what it made me think about was the four areas that he focuses on: relaxing, eating, moving and sleeping.  It made me self-assess where I think I am on those four areas at the moment.  So to your point, eating, I think I'm pretty good at that. Sarah Ellis: You're the best eater I know; that's actually a genuine compliment! Helen Tupper: I really think about what I eat and make sure that it's balanced and it's got all the good stuff in it.  So, that one I was like, "Okay, I'm sorted on this chapter".  Relaxing: bad.  I redefined this as bad, good, variable!  So, relaxing: bad; eating: good; moving: I put good. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you are now. Helen Tupper: Yeah, now, apart from when I'm wearing high heels around London. Sarah Ellis: And you refuse to go for a walk with me, which is ironic. Helen Tupper: Yeah, that, but I'm missing that bit out.  Generally, I try and do some kind of movement every day.  And sleep, I have put variable, because I think when I'm in a good routine with sleep, I'm very good at that; I know what I need and I have high-quality sleep.  But I trade that off a bit too easily.  I burn the candle at both ends a bit too much.  So, it did make me think about that, which I thought was quite a useful assessment, because it helped me to focus. But to your point, what have I done differently, he talks about quite a lot actually, the movement, about the benefit of HIIT, High Intensity Interval Training.  I have done a bit more of that, so I have signed up for the Tracy Anderson method.  She's some fitness lady from the US; I've done that and she does lots of HIIT stuff, and obviously, it might not be obvious, but I have Peloton and they have lots of HIIT classes, so I've done some more of that. He has this cool thing though, so you don't need any fancy tools to do this, it's called HIIT the House, which I thought is really cool.  So, you set yourself 30 seconds, for example; you stand at your house and you set your timer for 30 seconds and you walk as fast as you can up your street in 30 seconds, and you look at where you've got to in 30 seconds.  And then you go back -- Sarah Ellis: What, see if you can go further? Helen Tupper: Yeah, you go back and see if you can challenge yourself to go further, and I thought it was quite a cheap way of doing HIIT. Sarah Ellis: I have quite a lot of neighbours though.  Our street knows each other quite well, and I'm just imagining what would happen in our street if they just saw me marching down, coming back and marching again.  But I do get your point; you could that at a park as well, right. Helen Tupper: Yeah, you could, you totally could.  And the only other thing I've done is I've bought this thing called a WHOOP, which when I was away, a guy I know called David, he had this WHOOP.  Basically it's like a body tracker thing. Sarah Ellis: Oh, that's your watch thing that doesn't do steps that you were telling me about? Helen Tupper: Yeah, it doesn't do steps, it tracks strain instead of steps!  But the other thing it does, it tracks sleep.  So, I found it really fascinating to look at the quality of my sleep when I've been doing different things.  I mean, it's quite depressing, because it says to you if you want high-quality sleep, when you should go to bed and I'm like, "Well, that's not happening!"  I dismiss when it tells me I should go to sleep. But I can see that if I can a drink before bed, I can see how that affects -- it has the different types of sleep that you can have.  It tracks it like the deep sleep, I think it's called -- Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you wait until I tell you about the Why We Sleep book, when we do our sleep podcast! Helen Tupper: But yeah, so genuinely, it has made me think slightly differently and do some different things.  And I think, if a book can do that for you, then I think you have read a book well, and a book has been well-written if it helps you to do that.  What about you? Sarah Ellis: I think it's made me reflect on -- I'm good at walking already. Helen Tupper: You are. Sarah Ellis: I love going out for walks.  I already think I know it's good for me, so I'm quite good at doing it.  I find it particularly helpful when I'm working at home.  I actually feel like I don't need it as much if I'm travelling around, because I walk a lot, so I very rarely drive for work.  I'm walking to stations, or I would always walk around London.  If I could walk in any city or any place, I would always choose to do that, rather than get on a bus or get on a tube or something. But I think it's made me think more about walking without listening to things in my ears, essentially, because I do listen to a lot of podcasts.  I actually don't listen to very much music, but I listen to loads of podcasts; and just sometimes spotting, when might it be helpful to go for a walk without listening to anything, because I think that is a different kind of walk.  So, it just made me think about that more, and I think I actually found that quite hard.  It's become a real -- I've got very used to, "Oh, I'm listening to this podcast"; just walking with your own thoughts is scarier in some ways.  So, it made me definitely think about that. It also reminded me that if you don't factor walks into your day, they don't happen, and I really see that.  So, if I just put a walk in my diary, if I look over a couple of weeks and just be like, "Walk", sometimes it will be 60 minutes, sometimes I might do 90 minutes, sometimes it could be half an hour.  But if I don't look ahead, like you and I talk a lot at the moment about looking ahead and setting ourselves up for success; if I don't, it just doesn't happen, so it's made me think about doing that, particularly from September onwards, you know, the back-to-school feel of September, and try to really trying to commit to it between September and Christmas. I feel like this has now become a cliché, but autumn is my favourite season; I feel like everyone says that now. Helen Tupper: Mine too! Sarah Ellis: So I'm like, "Right, make the most of autumn by going out for a walk every day".  I would like to see whether I could do it every day.  The thing that really I think impressed, and in some ways overwhelmed me a little bit, is the fact that when Libby talks about walking, she does do it every day without fail, and I find that incredible, like how has she managed to do that?  She does describe how she has managed to do that, so that's almost the purpose of the book, but I do find that an interesting challenge, like could I walk every day between September and Christmas. Helen Tupper: I'd do that as an experiment with you for a week.  We could do a week of walking as an experiment, with no digital distractions of any kind, like podcasts or whatever, and see how we felt. Sarah Ellis: What, you would go for a walk every day; you're going to do that, are you? Helen Tupper: Yeah, in the morning early, before I actually start my day. Sarah Ellis: Oh, you would actually do the 5.00am one, wouldn't you?! Helen Tupper: Yeah, I would! Sarah Ellis: You'll be messaging me, I won't even be out of bed, and you'll be like, "I've done the walk!"  I'll be like, "Oh, God!" Helen Tupper: Would you find that motivating, or really annoying?! Sarah Ellis: We'll see! Helen Tupper: Yeah, we'll see! Sarah Ellis: And the last one it made me think about, which is not about what would I do differently, I was quite mindful reading the book, and certainly the way the book is positioned and thinking about this for myself, I do feel like I am in quite a privileged position to probably have -- I have quite a lot of control over my diary, not all the time, but to be able to make this happen, in terms of thinking about walks.  I was thinking back to some other organisations I've worked in and other sorts of jobs I've done, where I think it would be loads harder. So, first of all recognising that and thinking, "Well, what does this mean for everybody listening?" and I was thinking it's interesting to think, what could organisations do to encourage and support people to make the time to walk?  For a while, people were talking about virtual commutes, like when everyone was at home, or most people were at home most of the time, use that time for your commute to go for a walk; and I feel that's fallen by the wayside a little bit. You know everyone talks about the wellbeing that organisations can do, and organisations hopefully taking wellbeing really seriously, I feel like there is such a strong connection between walking and wellbeing, and I think people's biggest barrier, listening now, would be, "Well, that all sounds great, Sarah, but I don't have the time or the support to make that happen in my day, so I'd almost have to find time outside of my day job to do this, on top of everything else that I'm already trying to do". So I was like, perhaps we've got to reframe it and say, "Well, what if this was part of your day; what if this was part of your job; what if going for a walk every day was part of doing your job really well?" because my hypothesis would be, if everyone went for a walk during their day, they would do their jobs better, they would work better, more effectively, more efficiently, so how could you also experiment with that as a team, or as an organisation? Helen Tupper: It's a big hypothesis. Sarah Ellis: Yeah. Helen Tupper: We'll see, we'll test. Sarah Ellis: I think all the research though would back it up.  If you want your people to be more creative and innovative and to solve problems and to get unstuck and to have energy and motivation, all of those kinds of things, there'd be some good starting points for that hypothesis.  I don't think I'm plucking it out of thin air and going, "Just because I enjoy it, I think it would work for everyone".  Maybe we should test it in our team. Helen Tupper: That's what I was thinking.  We should do a little walking experiment, see how people feel, how hard it is.  I just remember, for example, when Virgin brought in their digital detox on a certain day, and because a lot of the research would say that was a really good thing, but actually the majority of people found it really annoying and frustrating.  So, I kind of think the research is one thing and reality is another, but you do the experiment to learn. Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  So, who would you recommend this book to?  So, if somebody's listened to you talk a bit about the book, they've got some good insights now, who do you think would be the audience for this book? Helen Tupper: I don't think it is the right book for a super-cynical person, you know, someone that wants loads of evidence.  I mean, it's well-researched, and there's lots of -- if you want to dive deep into any single area, like the sleep or the health, I'd go get a book just on that area, because there'll be more research on it.  But I'd say if you're already primed for a bit of a change, if you've already gone, "Do you know what, I already know this is something I want to improve.  I'm halfway there with my mindset really, I just could do with a little bit of help", then I think what this book does is it makes it pretty practical, there's loads of different ideas for action into it; sort of small action. I think it would be a really good thing to do with somebody else, because there's nothing too fundamentally life-changing within it, there is a collection of small actions that you can do that incrementally, I think, make a big difference to your health; and that's not to do the book a disservice, it's been designed like that so it's practical and possible.  But I would say, do it with somebody else -- Sarah Ellis: That makes me more likely to read it, that description. Helen Tupper: Yeah, do it with somebody else, do it if you're halfway there, you've already made a big of a commitment and you want to make a change, and yeah, I think it's not too hard a read either, I would say.  What about Libby's book? Sarah Ellis: I think Libby's book would be great if you were thinking about a new daily ritual.  So, I don't think it would actually have to be walking.  I think because the book actually is almost half about walking and half about Libby's personal journey and experience of creating this new ritual of something that she didn't do to something that she did do, and that became this really big part of who she is and her identity, so I think if you were thinking about anything, it wouldn't necessarily have to be walking, I think that would just be interesting just to observe and to learn from her.  And it is quite a personal, powerful story, so again, a bit like you've described, certainly not about the science. It is quite a spiritual book, I would say, it's got more of a spiritual slant to it.  It's got things like beautiful photography in, it's quite a calm read.  I wouldn't say it's a practical read, so compared to some of the other books in the DO series, some of them I've read and they are very practical.  So, I've just read Do Scale, which is about scaling organisations, and that reads a bit more like a manual like, "Do this, try this, here are the five steps to follow".  Libby writes in a more exploring, considered, curious way.  Like I say, it's about her story and then as I was going back through it actually, scattered in there is, "Maybe you could try this [or] here's a little bit of research [or] here's a quote by a philosopher", so it's that style of book. The other thing about all of the DO books is they are short and sweet, so they are just not long books.  So, you can read it in one sitting, you could read a little bit of it a day and keep coming back to it.  Having read it twice, I actually enjoyed it more the second time, which was interesting, and it's definitely a book you could read twice; it's very easy to do that.  So, if you're not someone who wants a, "I don't want a massive book that's going to take me ages; I want something that's short and I can just connect with quite quickly", then I think it would absolutely work for people. So, we thought we would finish these episodes by picking our favourite sentence or sentences; I say sentences, because I've picked more than one! Helen Tupper: Me too! Sarah Ellis: So, it's a good job I did that -- from the book that we felt either just summed up, or were just something that really stuck out for us. Helen Tupper: Yeah, so it's not a really super-quotable book.  I wouldn't say there's a lot of, what did you have, Socrates or Aristotle, or whoever you had? Sarah Ellis: Yes, lots, yeah. Helen Tupper: Yeah, I haven't got a lot of that from this book, but there is this really nice bit around gratitude, and there are three questions on gratitude which Dr Rangan has taken from someone called Charles Poliquin, who was a strength coach, which I thought were just useful for people to hear and maybe reflect on themselves. So, the three questions that you can ask yourself, and the idea is you ask yourself this every day, and it just helps you to increase that kind of relaxation piece: number one, what have you done today to make someone else happy?  Number two, what has somebody else done today to make you happy?  And number three, what have you learned today? Sarah Ellis: Good questions. Helen Tupper: That's what I thought. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I like those.  I was just thinking, "I've bought my son some Fondant Fancy cakes, because he really likes them!" and I know that's going to make him really happy. Helen Tupper: Everyone loves a Fondant Fancy. Sarah Ellis: They're a really old-school cake, but I really like them as well. Helen Tupper: Mr Kipling, or otherwise? Sarah Ellis: Yeah, the original, yeah, absolutely. Helen Tupper: What about you? Sarah Ellis: So, this is a couple of sentences towards the end of the book that Libby writes, "Learning expands our appreciation of the world.  Walking every day is a way to guarantee that we have the opportunity and raw material for learning in each day.  Events that require us to be a beginner are essential for growth.  The beginner's mind is a humbling and mighty tool". Helen Tupper: Nice.  "The beginner's mind is a humbling and might tool", is lovely.  We should put that in our learning mindset programme that we deliver, lovely quote, I like it.  Brilliant.  Well hopefully, you have enjoyed this.  We've got three more episodes to go, so there's more to come, we've done lots more reading, lots more learning.  Do get in touch with us if it has triggered any different thoughts for you.  We're just helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com.  And if you have read any books around this area that you think have helped you with your health as well, do let us know, because we can curate those and share them with the Squiggly Career community as well. Sarah Ellis: So, thank you so much for listening, and we'll be back with you again next week talking about sleep.  Bye for now. Helen Tupper: Bye everybody.