Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:25: The late Robert Phillips

00:02:27: Background to the episode

00:03:38: "We cannot be what we cannot see"

00:06:34: Role models help you to…

00:06:42: … see the art of the possible

00:06:55: … boost your belief

00:07:09: … activate your ambition

00:07:42: How to invest in role models …

00:08:09: … what might you be missing

00:10:47: … finding a role model accidentally

00:15:00: … the resilience role model
00:17:50: … the anti-role model

00:22:33: … don't rely on a single role model

00:24:29: Role model mood boards

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen Tupper.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah Ellis.

Helen Tupper: And this is a Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we talk about topics to help you work through the ins, outs, ups and downs of your career and share ideas and actions to support you with your development.  Today, we're going to be talking about the importance of role models in our careers, but before we do that, we wanted to recognise someone who's been a support to us behind the scenes who has very sadly passed away.

Sarah Ellis: So, I wanted to share with you a little bit about a man called Robert Phillips.  Robert Phillips was probably most famous as a leader in the world of PR, but that's not really how we knew him.  We knew him because he was one of the earliest Squiggly Career advocates and supporters.  He really believed in what we were trying to do with Squiggly Careers, and I spoke to him over numerous coffees; and he went out of his way to find opportunities to spread the Squiggly word. 

He was so generous in sharing his connections, he was so well connected; he seemed to know everyone and he'd know someone who knew someone; and lots of our guests on our podcasts, and most people wouldn't necessarily know this, people like Margaret Heffernan and Cath Bishop, would not be on the podcast if it wasn't for Robert.  They're connections that Robert made behind the scenes, and he was always just trying to find ways to help us, to make things better.  He was always open to giving us some feedback, or just helping in any way he could.  And he wasn't someone I'd known for years and years; I've probably known him now for six or seven years as we were first starting Amazing if.

The thing that also I personally loved about him is that he took his work really seriously and what we were trying to do really seriously, but he never took himself too seriously.  He had a perpetual twinkle in his eye and he was so cheeky and I just always felt he had always got a wry smile for me, which always made me laugh, and I loved his sense of humour and I loved spending time with him.  I'm going to miss him so much and I'm always grateful for the impact that, not only he had on our business, and I can really see the positive difference he had on our business, but also just the positive impact he had on me, so I'll miss him a lot.

Helen Tupper: So generous with his time and thoughts; he really was both.  So, in lots of ways, Robert was a role model for us, which I think makes today's topic even more relevant, as we're going to be sharing some of the things that we've learnt about on this topic.  The idea for the episode was sparked by a book that I read on my learning day that I had a few weeks ago; I've actually got another one this week I'm quite excited about!  I'm now obsessed with these learning days. 

But the book was written by Fiona Murden, who's a psychologist, and it's called Mirror Thinking: How Role Models Make Us Human.  It looked at role models in a depth that I've not really explored before, and lots of the psychology behind it, which really made me think about it slightly differently.  So, in this conversation, we wanted to explore what it means to have a role model, who can be a role model for you, and also how it can help you.  As ever, we've got lots and lots of different ideas for actions so that you can build role models around you and your career.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think it's fair to say with this topic, this is one that actually Helen and I have spent a lot of time on over the last couple of weeks preparing for today's conversation.  Sometimes with our podcasts, you can probably tell that we don't have scripts!  Sometimes, we've thought about something a lot in our careers and we're just sharing our own experiences; whereas with this one, actually we've read quite a lot, but also we've tried some of these ideas out really recently and we're discovering how helpful it can be to really think about this in, I suppose, a more proactive way and a more thoughtful way.

So, we started with thinking, "What do we mean by role models?" and there was a great quote that says, "We cannot be what we cannot see", and that's from a lady called Marian Wright Edelman, and she was an American activist for children's rights.  I think, what we were getting to when we were exploring this idea of role models and why they matter, is that they are people's whose actions you really admire and probably aspire to as well, in some way.

Sometimes when you see role models talked about, you hear this word "imitation", which we felt less comfortable with; because we don't think with role models, they're there for you to compare yourself to necessarily, and you don't necessarily have to become that person.  When we both started to really think about role models in our career in the past, right now, and we're going to talk about those much more, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're trying to be that exact person; but I do think though, often doing something that you aspire to in some way, and certainly you really admire their actions.

Why do we think role models are even more important in Squiggly Careers?  Well, I think there are two things that we got to and maybe there are more, let us know if you've come up with more, but the first is that as we are squiggling and developing in different directions, I think we need lots of different role models to learn from.  So, I think one of the things that we'll talk about is this is not about just one person; that's a lot of expectation in one person, if you've only got one role model.  But as we do move and flow, I think we need different people to learn from who can help us think in a different way, help us to learn in a different way, so that becomes important.

But the thing that was most interesting that we ended up talking about for a while was, because of technology generally, we feel role models are more accessible now, a range of role models are more accessible now, than perhaps they've been before.  When I was thinking about the first ten years of my career and who were my role models then, the internet was a bit less prevalent then.

Helen Tupper: You sound like a dinosaur!

Sarah Ellis: I know, but it was a bit different.

Helen Tupper: You're not that old!

Sarah Ellis: I know, but Instagram didn't exist, did it?  So, it was quite different and I do remember the days of dial-up internet!  But certainly, when I was growing up and in the first few years of our career, I think the people who were role models for me were people, back to that point about, "We cannot be what we cannot see", I had to be quite close to those role models in some way.  So, maybe they were people who I not necessarily worked for, but in the organisations I was in or I'd come across in some way, so they were quite close to my world.

Whereas now, I think, and we'll talk a bit more about this, that role models can come from so many different places; you don't need to have spent time with them.  You can learn lots about people without being in the same organisation as them, and that's why I feel like that's the benefit now of role models; it just feels even more important.  They can inspire you in lots of different ways.

Helen Tupper: And must onto that point around "lots of different ways", we thought about three specific ways that role models help you.  The first is that they can help you see the art of the possible.  So, if there's something that maybe you're interested in and you can see someone else who has done it, that can be a source of inspiration for you and it can help to also boost your belief.  That's probably the second thing, because whilst you're not trying to be them, you might think, "Well, they've gone through that, they've done that.  It is possible, so maybe I can do this too", and I think it gives you that sense of belief in some of the things that you might want to do in your career.

And then the third thing is, I think it can activate your ambition.  You can see things that people have achieved, or the way they're achieving them, or where they're achieving them.  I think admiration is great.  I mean, I think comparison's bad, but that's not what we're trying to do here.  We're trying to look at other people and go, "Wow, I think what they're doing is brilliant; I'd like to have a bit of that brilliance.  What can I learn from them?"  I think learning, rather than comparing, is a really important thing here when we're looking at role models.  So, that's why it's worth our time: art of possible, boosting our belief; and activating our ambition.

Then, what we really wanted to do is share some of the thoughts that we've had about how you really invest in role models, how you think about who they could be and how you could, in the nicest possible sense, use them to benefit you in your career, which sounds a bit bad and I don't think this is using people; but it is about, I think, getting connected and maybe bringing some of those role models a bit closer and more regularly reflecting on what they mean to you and why.

So, the first one, in terms of what they mean to you and why, the first idea for action is to really think about, what might you be missing and therefore, what might you need modelling?  So, for example, if I think about myself and my career at the moment, I might think, "What am I missing?  I'm missing a sense of being a really high-achieving CEO [or] I'm missing a sense of somebody who's successfully juggling work and parenting and doesn't look tired all the time!" or whatever it is. 

But I think, if you think about where are you right now and what do you feel like you might be missing, I think that is a really good source of inspiration for people to look for role models; because, again, they might be doing some that you want to do, but you're not quite there yet.  Just following those people and getting curious about what they're doing, just being inspired by what they're doing, can help you to maybe fill some of those gaps until you get there yourself.

Sarah Ellis: So an example, for me, which is very linked to that parenting point, is a designer and entrepreneur called Anya Hindmarch.  And I think, do you know what, I started quite superficially following her, because I really liked her bags!

Helen Tupper: I was going to say, did you not just start by buying her stuff?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, well I did; I have a lot of Anya Hindmarch bags.  She used to have a shop at Bicester village, which I used to just go to all the time and buy all the bags.  And then I started following her work, and then I started going to her events, and then I saw her talk and I think I just got a bit closer and closer to her as a role model, having never actually had a proper conversation with her!  But the reason that she's a role model, for me, so she's an entrepreneur; she's run her business since, I think, she was 17; bags of grit; parent of five.

Helen Tupper: Five?!

Sarah Ellis: I know!  She sold equity in her business and then the business wasn't going very well, so she bought it back; and there's this tenacity and grit and resilience and juggling.  And actually, reading her book recently, you get the inside story to it and I look at her and go, I mean I've never going to be Anya Hindmarch, but there's a lot that she does that I really admire and think, "I would like to develop some of those skills and some of those traits, and seeing how you've done that is an inspiration to me".

Helen Tupper: Is her book called If In Doubt, Wash Your Hair; is that right?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: Good title!

Sarah Ellis: It's a really nice yellow book as well, it's lovely; I like it on my shelf!

Helen Tupper: Good example there again of the fact that you don't need to know somebody.  It's almost, once you discover someone, you get a feel for you could learn from them.  I feel like over time, your relationship has really developed, but she just doesn't know it!

Sarah Ellis: Yet!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, who knows?

Sarah Ellis: So, our second idea for action is, I suppose, almost the opposite of what Helen's just described, which was quite a deliberate process of asking yourself, "This is what I'm missing and therefore, that's what I need modelling and that's what I'm going to go out and look for.  And when I find it, I'm then going to put, very intentionally, even more of my time into learning about this person".

I think the other thing, when we were both thinking about where we both found our role models, is often you do find them accidentally; you don't necessarily think, "I'm going to this thing to find a role model".  It's often for a different reason.  But then you discover a role model and you think, "They're really interesting".  Perhaps that's somebody you didn't know about before, you've learned about someone new from a different area or a different industry, and this has definitely been the case for me.

I've had actually some really pivotal moments in my career where I've done something that either I'd never done before, or said yes to something that I wouldn't have normally gone to; or I'd listened to something that was new to me that someone, maybe outside of my world, had recommended, and almost discovered a role model as a result.  Obviously, that doesn't happen ever time, but I think it does happen some of the time.

I've got a really vivid memory of an event that I went to probably about 12 or 13 years ago, probably for the first time, and a manager at the time had just recommended it to me and just said, "It's a good event, it's an interesting event, I think you should go along; you'll hear some great people speak".  But that one event, which I think I thought I was going to learn about my discipline at the time, which was marketing; actually, what I came away from that with was one or two really incredible role models, because I think it was the first time, back to that quote, that I'd heard from people who I felt were a bit like me, but also I really admired and I really aspired to.  The jobs they were doing, the way they were, I felt like they were just quite normal people and suddenly I just felt like, "Oh, maybe I can be ambitious and be me".

Back to that point of, it shows you the art of the possible, but for this one, because it's more about accidental role models, the action for us all to take is to keep putting ourselves in positions where we find those role models; and I think that can be everything from the communities you're part of, the networks you're part of, the events you go to, the podcasts that you listen to.  I think there's a really close relationship for me here about curiosity; about intentional curiosity. 

"Curiosity is a capability" is a phrase that Helen often uses that I really like, which is if we create ways to inject that inspiration, as we've talked about before, to collect lots of dots in our days, then I do think role models come your way as a result of that, particularly when we start to look for them. 

I listened to a podcast last week, called Don't Tell Me The Score, and that was a podcast I'd listened to before, so it wasn't a new podcast.  But there was a particular person on that podcast I was listening to, a guy called Lewis Moody, who's an ex-England rugby player, won the World Cup with England, who I thought, "He'll be interesting", because I quite like rugby.  Actually, he was interesting for a whole host of other reasons.  He was somebody who'd learned about asking for help; he talked really eloquently about how he'd discovered his own leadership style versus thinking about copying other leaders.

The thing that I found really interesting was just the work he now does for others.  He does lots of interesting charity work; he talked in a really compelling way about finding his purpose; and so suddenly, this person who I was already aware of through my hobbies and interests, I go, "Wow", he suddenly a role model that I perhaps wasn't expecting.  People were even talking about things like psychological safety and I was like, "Where's that come from?"; things you don't expect necessarily in those kinds of conversations.

So, that could be just a role model moment; I think you can just have a moment in time when you just think, "That's given me someone who I really admire and aspire to what they've just talked about", and then to Helen's point about someone who you can then continue to invest in; or you might just think, "Great, that was a great moment in time that has left me really inspired again".  So, think about how you're creating those opportunities for role models to come your way.

Helen Tupper: The third idea for action is really about a specific type of role model, because I think everything that Sarah and I have spoken about so far has been either intentional or slightly random, and you don't really know where it's going to go.  This third idea is about the concept of a resilience role model.  This is a particular type of role model who has maybe gone through some tough times that you can relate to, because maybe you're going through them right now, and this resilience role model can give you a feeling of grit, perhaps, and confidence that you can go through this situation too.

So, I think if you're going through a tough time right now, maybe you're going through a restructure, maybe you're going through redundancy, maybe you're just feeling really tired or overwhelmed; looking around you at people who might have experienced that situation, or maybe they're experiencing it right now, but they seem to be finding their way through it slightly differently to you, they can become really good resilience role models.

One of mine, which is funny, because it's very different from my day-to-day context and I talk about her all the time, Sarah will know where I'm going with it, but my biggest resilience role model is my nan; and I think there are about 60 years between me and my nan!  My nan isn't really that close to what we do, but the things that my nan has gone through in her life and where she is now and her positive attitude and energy, she absolutely is my resilience role model, because sometimes I might have a hard day and I look to my nan and I think, "Come on, Helen". 

Nanny has coped with being on her own for the last 18 months with coronavirus and she's a really sociable person; and I go, "If nanny can go through that and still talk positively to me at the end of the day and be happy, then I think you can cope with a hard day at work".  And I just look to her so much for that.  So, think about who are your resilience role models, because they can really help you in those tough times, whether it's something happening today, or something that might seem more significant; but also, don't forget that you can be your own resilience role model. 

This is the idea that we have all been through tough times before, and it might not be exactly like the situation that you're finding yourself in, but you've found your way through something difficult before.  That might be, when you reflect on it, because you worked really hard, or maybe it was because you listened to some other people; or maybe because it was that you looked after yourself so you had the energy to go through that time.  Whatever it was, it's likely that you can look back and learn from how you got through that tough time and you can use that as some inspiration that you can do it again.

So, you can look forward and look outward to other people, but you can also look backwards to when you have been resilient before to give you the confidence that you can do so again.

Sarah Ellis: Our idea for action number four is something a bit different, which is also thinking about who do you not want to model?  We're describing this as sort of your anti-role models, but I think you can interpret this in two different ways.  The first is, talking about Margaret Heffernan, who we mentioned at the start of the podcast, I was listening to Margaret Heffernan last week at a conference; and one of the things that she was talking about in terms of the things that are really important if we're going to navigate all the uncertainty and change that just is part of our day-to-day work now, and if the organisations are going to be successful at finding their way through that, is the importance of being able to think differently, being able to bring together people with different ideas and perspectives around a problem.

So, I think some anti-role models can be about, well just make sure that when you're thinking about your role models, you're not creating an "echo chamber of agreement".  I saw someone use that phrase last week, which I thought was a really good reminder that when I started to think about my role models, one of the challenges I'm going to give myself is, I almost feel like all of my role models will get on really well.  If I was to put them all around a table, I can imagine everyone would agree and have quite strong, shared values.  I think we'd all have an absolutely lovely time. 

I think the challenge with that is sometimes it doesn't push us to explore our potential; it doesn't push us to explore different possibilities, different ways of doing things.  So, if you come across someone and you think, "That's interesting, but the complete opposite to maybe what I would have done [or] perhaps I can learn from that person", but not because you necessarily want to aspire to be like them; just because you think, "Oh, wow, that's very different to me". 

So, I think that's one lens that you can look at this through, and I think that's probably the most useful lens, is just make sure that your role models are not all too similar; collect role models from different places and spaces, but also look out for those people who are doing things very differently.  My sister once described a book to me where she said, "I think you should read this book, because I think it's really anti-Amazing it".  I thought, if anyone ever said that to me, the first thing you should do is read that book, "Oh, that's fascinating; someone with a completely different world view who you can learn from and have a very different perspective on".

The other way of looking at this is the very obvious one of going, sometimes as well, you can look at people and think, "That's exactly what I don't want to do.  I don't aspire to that" and actually, if you have a really strong reaction to something, that can actually help to reinforce what really matters to us.  Now, I wouldn't advocate spending lots and lots of time researching those people, because if you're having that almost quite visceral reaction, you're kind of going, that's probably what you want to do and that's not going to create a positive and optimistic environment for yourself.

But this also comes back to things like, you know when you have managers, we all have a manager at some point in our career that are really tough to work for.  The thing that I always say to people in those moments, and we know that's really tricky in those moments where you are working for someone where it feels really tough, is as a minimum, the thing that you can learn from is, "Okay, that's not what I want to do when I maybe get into that position".  Maybe learn for you what's really important to you.  What really matters to you is probably not what matters to that person; and that's okay too.

So, that anti-role model, I think firstly make sure you're not creating an echo-chamber of agreement, if you imagined all of those people sitting around a table; and look out for anything with opposite views, but that you can learn from.  And then also, those people who you just think, "I don't admire their actions; I don't aspire to that", and then ask yourself, "Okay, so what does mean for me, in terms of what I might be missing and what modelling I do want?".  Use it as positive energy to learn from people who are really interesting to you, rather than letting yourself be dragged down by the things you don't want to be.

Helen Tupper: It's actually a really nice way of reframing a relationship.  So, when you look back, if you have some relationships like the bad manager one where you're like, "Oh, that was so bad", and there's a really negative narrative that goes around your mind; it's like a little black mark in your mind, isn't it, of something that happened in the past.  But actually, I think you could probably be much more constructive if you said, "Okay, rather than just thinking about how bad it was, I'm going to think about, 'Well, if they were my anti-roll model, what did I learn from them that I want to do different myself?'" and I think you could reframe the relationship as a bit more of a learning opportunity, because they could become a bit of an anti-role model; put them in that category, but maybe just don't tell them!  Don't put that on LinkedIn, everybody, "Congratulations, you're my anti-role model"!

So, our fifth and final one, and we've mentioned this a little bit, but I just wanted to dive in a bit deeper; the fifth action is not relying on a single role model.  Sarah mentioned at the start that that can actually put quite a bit of pressure on somebody, both if they ever knew, but also for you in terms of what you're expecting them to live up to; because actually, when we talked about thinking about what you're missing, there are likely to be a few things that you're missing.  Maybe you want to be more creative; maybe you want more drive; maybe you want more balance.  The fact that one person could do all of that modelling for you is a little bit unrealistic.

So, this is about having multiple role models and really thinking about what are the different things that could help you to be your best, that other people might embody through the way that they work, or what they work on.  And, in Fiona Murden's book that we mentioned, she talks about three different types of role model, which I think are a useful way of making this specific. 

So, you can have personal roles, so that's like my nanny; you can have situational role models, so that's people that are connected in some way to your current career or life context, for example, somebody for me like Emma Barnett.  She's been a guest on our podcast; she has a radio show, Woman's Hour; she for me is situational and I really admire her assertiveness and her confidence and her questioning.  That's part of why she's a role model for me.

Then, the third one that you can have is an aspirational role model.  So, this is somebody, almost your future desired state.  So, in this one, I'd put somebody like Josh Bayliss, who is the CEO at Virgin, and I'd put him in that aspirational pod because of his leadership skills.  So, I was saying to Sarah, "Why do I admire Josh?"  It's because he's commercial and he's strategic, which I think's really important and what I admire in leaders; but he's also really kind and he's got a lot of clarity, and I think it's that mix of things that I really admire him for.

Then, Sarah and I took this one step further and have created some role model mood boards, which is where we've taken all these different people, so we've got these multiple role models, and we've really thought about who they are and what it is that we admire in them to create this kind of one-page summary of all these things that we're looking for in our role models.  I have done this and it is a really, really helpful thing to do.

We'll put a picture on amazingif.com and we'll put this on social media so you can see it.  But I think what it really helps you to look are all the different traits that you really admire, and helps you to think about where you might want to focus your development too; not just in role-modelling, but in other skill development and how you spend your time.  A really helpful exercise to create this role model mood board.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and also, it's really fun. 

Helen Tupper: It created fun!

Sarah Ellis: And, as we were talking about this, as we said, this is an episode that actually we've thought about quite a lot; when we first started, I was a bit stuck.  I was, "I'm not sure who my role models are".  Then over a couple of days, I got a little section in my phone and I just kept adding to it and adding to it.  Then also, you do start to notice things like, what are you missing, as I said earlier; or, have I got a bit of an echo-chamber here; and, perhaps what extra role models might I start to look out for.  So, I just think it's a really nice way of just bringing all your reflections together and then thinking, "What do I notice?"

So, a quick reminder just to finish, if you ever want to join us on a Thursday morning for half an hour, we do something called PodPlus, which is a free, short workshop, with a brilliant learning community, about each week's podcast topic.  You don't need to have listened to the podcast to join us.  I know sometimes, that might put a bit of pressure on people.  There's no test; there are no questions, "What did Sarah say at minute 29?"  It's really just our visual way of learning a bit more about that topic. 

So, we'd love you to join us and if you'd like to, you can get all the details for that in show notes on amazingif.com, and we're @amazingif on Instagram.  We also now have these brilliant PodSheets, which are a summary of what we've talked about each week, and give you things like the ideas for action.  They're downloadable, you can fill them in for yourself.  So again, if you perhaps are listening to this and you just want to listen and you don't really want to write anything down, or perhaps because you're out walking, that's hopefully a good resource for you to just summarise.  And, if you're just someone who likes to then take what you've learnt and work out, "What does this mean for me?" and put it into action, perhaps check those out and see if they might be useful for you.

Helen Tupper: So, we hope you have enjoyed this topic and you have learned a lot along with us as well, and we'll be back with you next week.  Bye, everyone.

Sarah Ellis: Thanks so much for listening, everyone.  Bye for now.