Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction 00:01:39: The five skills 00:04:19: When the skills are useful to you 00:08:07: Strengths… 00:12:21: … (a) do an energy audit 00:13:52: … (b) stretch your strengths 00:15:17: Values… 00:19:08: … high/low learning 00:24:57: Confidence… 00:28:59: … reflect on your very small successes 00:34:38: Network… 00:36:19: … the four Cs 00:41:51: Possibilities… 00:43:27: … have regular curious career conversations 00:49:23: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly podcast where we dive into the ins, outs, ups and downs of careers and give you some ideas for action, some tools to take away; we basically just try to help people have a little bit more confidence and control over their career development.

Sarah Ellis: And today, we're talking about the five skills to succeed in a Squiggly Career.  We're so proud that we've now got to the point where we've sold 50,000 copies of The Squiggly Career --

Helen Tupper: Woohoo!

Sarah Ellis: -- which when I think back to writing that book, if somebody had told me that many people were going to read it, I think I would have got writer's block and probably would have never finished it!  But we're really grateful to everybody who has spent time with either the Squiggly Career, perhaps you've tried out our new video book, or you've been listening to the podcast for three or four years now, and everything that we try to do, we really want it to be useful. 

Useful is our number one value at Amazing If.  So, our books are designed to be scribbled in; the video book has got worksheets to download; as you watch, our podcasts have always got the one-page PodSheet summaries and the PodNotes and PodPlus. So, we really want to make sure that you've got ideas for action that are really useful today, tomorrow, next week, and that you can keep coming back to and keep using.  That's why we thought, we've actually never done an episode on the five skills to succeed in a Squiggly Career, which was sort of the starting point actually for our workshops back in 2013, so we've been testing these ideas for a long time.  And so what we've tried to do today is bring together almost the best of what we know has worked with all of our learners.

Helen Tupper: And I think if you've got the book, it's a good recap, and if you're maybe a thinking about it, it's just a good insight to what more is there within the pages.  And so, really quick recap of the skills to succeed in a Squiggly Career, there are five: the first one is strengths; then values; confidence; network; and possibilities.  And we're going to go through exactly what those skills are and why we think they are so relevant to you in your career development, in a moment.  But the thing to really note is, the reason we've picked those five is because they are skills we can all learn and they are skills which I think underpin your Squiggly Career success. 

Whatever success means to you, these things are really fundamental to you being able to go and get it. I also say to people, "It's not the only things you need to know"; there are other skills like empathy and curiosity, there are some really important skills in addition to these, but we think that these are the ones that are most universally useful.  So, it doesn't really matter where you work or how long you've been working, these are one that I think are important to you to spend some time with, and also to keep coming back to. 

The skills that we're talking about today, it's all about your awareness, your awareness of your values, your awareness of the community you're building around your career; but it's also about action.  It's not just about lots of reflection, it's about doing something different as a result of spending time on these skills. So, we want to inspire you to spend time with them, we want to inspire you to take action, and we would love you to keep coming back to them.  I think Sarah and I always feel quite fortunate.  Because we keep talking to people about these skills, we are always coming back to them ourselves.  I'm always thinking about, "How do my values show up this week?" or, "How am I making sure, if that's a strength I want to be known for, that it's something that I'm spending time on?"  So, I think we have it built into our working weeks, but I think other people, you, can get this built into your working week if you give it a little bit of attention, you put it towards the top of your to-do list.

Sarah Ellis: What we don't expect is you to be spending time on all of these five skills simultaneously, because that would be unrealistic.  So, I do think it's quite useful to start by thinking, almost prioritising these five skills around, "How relevant are they for me right now?"  We're just going to go through each of these five and say when we think they're often most useful, so a bit of a "useful when" statement.  So, as you listen to each of these, perhaps just be thinking, "Yeah, actually that feels really helpful for me at the moment"; "I've actually done some work on that recently, so I can come back to that in six months' time"; or, "That just doesn't feel like a helpful place for me to start at the moment". So, strengths.  Strengths are useful when you want to identify what you want to be known for and when you want to make your strengths stronger; values are useful when you want to increase your sense of satisfaction and fulfilment from the work that you do; confidence is useful when you want to make the most of opportunities and overcome obstacles, what we often call the knotty moments; networking, useful when you want to learn from other people, and make sure you've got the right people around you to accelerate your progression; possibilities, useful when you want to be curious about where your career could take you and explore new directions for your development.

Helen Tupper: So, Sarah, which Squiggly skill feels most relevant for you right now?

Sarah Ellis: Do you know what, as I was writing these "useful when" statements, I did actually ask myself that question, so at least I practise what I preach some of the time!  Networking for me, for both of the reasons actually, both in terms of who I'm learning from, and thinking about my progression, the areas that I want to develop in.  I feel like it's been stronger in the past than it is today, and I've seen how helpful it has been for me in propelling my Squiggly Career.  And I don't necessarily feel like I've invested in it in quite the same way as I have done previously.  So, that is definitely top of my list.  What about you?

Helen Tupper: Combination of, I'm allowed to, network, so you too but different reasons actually to you.  Mine's actually about thinking where we want to grow the business and making sure I'm learning and connected to the right people to enable that, because I think some of the places we're taking the business to aren't naturally the people that I spend time with today; so, doing that a bit more consciously.  And then strengths, I think just making sure that one of the things that I want to be known for as a strength is career development, and I think I do a lot of that every day, which is good; I think that's probably what I'm associated with. However, I think there are some other things about making things happen, being an accelerator or a catalyst that I think, "What else could I do to make that strength stand out?  It's probably seen within our team, but what could I do outside of it so that I build my brand around it?"  I have not got the answer to that, but that's why those two skills are a priority for me at the moment.

Sarah Ellis: So, for each of the five skills, we're going to cover briefly the what and the why, so just that we're really clear what we're talking about and why it matters, the "why should I care".  Always important to not miss the why, because we know that our brains are much more motivated by whys than whats.  Whats help us to understand and have shared understanding, but it's the whys that are going to make you think, "This is important for me to spend some time on". Then, as you'd expect from us, we're going to then talk about the how.  And what we're going to share today is just one, I think at times we might have just sneaked in two, hero ideas for action.  This is the idea where we look at everything that we've done, all of the workshops, all of the books, everyone that we've spoken to, all the learning that we've done, and we've thought, "Which is the idea that we've had the most positive response to?" 

So, when we say to learners, "What's the action you're going to do after today?" or when people write to us and say, "I did this thing". So, I found it very hard, when we were doing this, to then not put the four or five other things that I know can be helpful.  But for this, we're going to try and keep it very specific to one idea for action, so almost if you only do one thing, we're very confident this is a good place to start.  And then we will make sure that of course, let's say you're like Helen and you want to dive a bit deeper into your strengths, we'll make sure that we link to the relevant podcast episode so that you can dive a bit deeper.  For example, on strengths, we did an episode on How to Make Your Strengths Stand out and Show up, so that will be a really good place to go after this podcast.  So, we'll do a bit of a twinning exercise, which is the twin episode for each of the five skills.

Helen Tupper: So, let's start with skill number one, which is about you and your strengths.  The easiest way of understanding what strengths are is to think about energy.  Strengths are all about you and your energy at work.  So, think about strengths as the things that give you energy, so the work that you do that gives you energy, even if you're not great at it yet.  So, our starting point for strengths, when we're talking about it in a Squiggly Career, is not how good you are at something, so we're trying to get away from capability being the definition; and it's more about how much it energises you. The mirror to this is weaknesses.  So, if strengths are the things that give you energy, even if you're not great at them yet, then a weakness is anything that you do that takes your energy away, even if you are good at it. 

And I think that is a very different way of thinking about strengths and weaknesses because normally it's like, well if you're good at it, of course it's a strength. But actually, if you reflect on your own career, I bet there are some things that you are probably quite good at, maybe because it's a natural talent or you spend a lot of time doing that particular thing at work, that you might not love doing and you do not want to be defined by something that you can do that you find draining to do, because all that happens is you get associated with that thing and people find you opportunities to do it more.  And you'll find yourself quite stuck and frustrated in a job where you're doing quite a lot of stuff that doesn't give you energy, and we do need energy in our Squiggly Careers, so let's just think that our strengths are the things that give us energy, regardless of how good we are at those things yet. If you can make those things stand out, so you take those strengths that give you energy and they stand out and speak for you, people associate you with those things, then the why, the benefit for you, is basically you get to do more of the good stuff, whatever that good stuff is for you. 

You're building a reputation around what you want to be known for.  People associate you with that, they spot ways for you to use it more, and it becomes self-fulfilling in your Squiggly Career that these things that give you energy are the things you're known for and you get to do them more. I think it's the Squiggly dream!  And the good thing is, it's totally possible to do.  I have done this.  I made a decision that I wanted to be known for career development, because in all the corporate jobs I was doing, it was the thing that gave me energy the most.  It didn't matter whether I was working at Virgin or Microsoft, the thing that I loved was basically managing, developing people.  And then I made a decision to be known for that and I worked really hard to make that stand out, and then it has become a massive part of my brand, so I get to do it more.  So, this is totally possible and totally in your control, it just has to be the skill that you want to focus on first, I would say.

Sarah Ellis: And the other distinction that I often overlay on top of energy, that I've found quite useful in my own career, is that I fell into the trap of trying to be all things to all people.  So, my starting point was, if I saw somebody else be good at something, I'd think, "I'd have to be as good as they are at that thing".  So, I almost put equal effort across way too many things, and then you end up being good, if you work really hard maybe very good, but I don't think you end up being great. So, the difference for me sometimes is recognising that of course, you will all have so many strengths and we're all in jobs where you need to be adaptable and flexible, and you'll use loads of those things.  Some of them will give you more energy than others, but we often use this phrase, "super-strengths", because I do think you probably only end up being known for two or three things, in terms of what people remember about you, what really makes you stand out.  And I think it's having that clarity is like, "If people only say two things about me or three things about me, what do I want those things to be; and how do I make those things happen?"

so, as Helen describes, I can pull more opportunities to do more of that sort of thing towards me. Exactly the same as Helen, my "Aha" moment was that moving away from thinking, "How do I be brilliant at everything?" and actually then, I ended up being brilliant at nothing, to actually being much more confident in the two or three things that were my super-strengths, and then really overinvesting in those, and it really propelled my career.  It's where I got way more promotions, I got loads more opportunities, I just enjoyed the work, I found so much more flow.

Helen Tupper: So, how then do you get to this revelation that Sarah and I go to?!  So, the first thing that we'd recommend as an idea for action is to do an energy audit.  So, you have to start with what gives you energy, and your diary has all the data that you need.  So, at the end of every day, just reflect on, "What gave me the most energy today?" so think about the conversations you've been in, the meetings you attended, the presentations you were doing, whatever your day looks like, just think, "What gave me the most energy today?" Then, the second thing is to think about, "What strength was I using in that situation?"  Just write that down, it will take you two minutes maximum at the end of the day.  And then at the end of the week, you'll start to see the list of the strengths that you've been using in your highest energy moments, and that creates a decision point for you to think about, to Sarah's point on super-strengths but, "Of all these strengths I've written down that give me energy, which two or three, probably max I would say three, do I really want to be known for?" because that is your choice to decide what you want to be known for. 

And if you don't make the choice about what you want to be known for, you're leaving that stuff to chance and your career's too important for that. I would also recommend doing this maybe for a couple of weeks.  Obviously, the more weeks that you do this for, the more data for your development you're going to have.  But ultimately it's about, "What are my highest energy moments; what strength was I using in that situation?"  Look at your slightly longer list of strengths that you've then got and then think, "What do I want to be known for?"  That will give you the awareness part of this action, that will help you to think about, "These are the things that I want to be known for".

Then, part two is we need to make sure that those things that you want to be known for are the things that are standing out.  This is where we've squeezed an extra idea for action in.  So, make the decision about what you want to be known for, and then what you want to do is stretch those strengths.  So, let's say you decided you want to be known for problem-solving, you're like, "I love problem-solving, it makes me feel really good.  That's what I want to be known for in my work".  You really want to think about, "How can I make sure that that strength is seen and used as much as possible, in and outside of my organisation?" because your brand goes beyond just the company that you're in today. So, think about the job that you're in, could you stretch it a bit more there?  That might even just be in a single meeting; it's quite a small stretch.  But then, think about maybe the department that you're in, if you're in a large organisation, there might be different departments.  Could you put yourself forward to do some problem-solving on a project that isn't part of your day-job, for example?  Then think about the organisation more broadly. 

Are there some cross-functional initiatives or events or something like that you can get involved in?  That's getting further away from the day-to-day, so it means different people are seeing your strengths and you're using them in different places. Then, think outside of the organisation, so another stretch there.  Volunteering, communities, even side projects, all these things help you to make your strengths bigger and better and that's what we want them to do.  The bigger and better they become, the more part of your brand they'll be.

Sarah Ellis: So, second skill is values.  What are values?  I actually think for values, this is one where the what is worth spending a bit of time on, because I think the word "values" can sometimes feel abstract, maybe a bit fluffy.  As a word, I don't think it's for everyone, but the principles behind values I think are universally useful, because values are what motivates and drives you, they're what's most important to you.  So, you don't have to use the word "values", or perhaps if you were sharing this with your team or some people that you think might be a bit cynical and sceptical about this stuff, talk about motivators or drivers, or just what's most important to you. So, why are values important?  In our Squiggly Careers, they are full of choices and challenge and neither of those things are going anywhere. 

Those characteristics are inevitable and will always be true.  When you start exploring your values, I think it gives you a really good filter for your own decision-making; I think you make better decisions essentially, and it helps as well to stop you being distracted by "shoulds and shiny objects" so, "This is what I think I should do, because other people expect it of me [or] someone's told me it would be a great opportunity".  And shiny objects might be a brand that looks very swanky, or a job title that sounds really brilliant on paper. I think the thing to remember with values is they are something you do need to keep coming back to.  You don't get a quick answer on your values and actually if you do, you've probably not given it enough thought.  And I have definitely done values exercises and treated them too much like a tick-box exercise, being like, "I'll go through this process and it will spit out and answer and then brilliant, it will equal my values".  But even though you need to keep coming back to them and explore them from a few different angles, you definitely can get some quick clues as to what your values might be with the ideas for action that we're going to talk about today, and particularly the new values tool that we're going to mention in a moment.

Of all the five areas, it's probably the one where almost every six months or so, you would benefit from having some sort of reminder to go, "I'm just going to spend half an hour and perhaps do a different idea for action on my values", if this feels like the one that's relevant for you right now.

Helen Tupper: My lightbulb moment with values was when I thought about the distinction between values and validation.  So, I think ladderlike careers are full of validation, like levels, job titles, grades, all that good stuff that companies give us to keep us motivated.  But it might actually not be that meaningful for you.  So, you can spend a lot of your career accumulating shiny objects, like the things I just mentioned, that kind of validate you in your success.  The problem is, if those things aren't connected to you and your values, the things that really motivate and drive you, they're not really that meaningful beyond the moment that you get them.

I think I spent quite a lot of my career seeking validation, the status, the significance, the shiny objects, and then actually not feeling that satisfied by it.  Then, when I really started to learn about my values, I was like, "Oh, that stuff really isn't about a job title".  One of my values is freedom, for example; one of my values is growth.  And when I unhooked myself from the shiny object, validation stuff that you get on ladderlike careers and really started to look into my values, it was so much better for me.  I saw so many more ways that I could find fulfilment, and I could just do it more confidently and I was like, "This is what makes me me.  I don't have to apologise for it, I just have to go be more me".  It's just like the blinkers come off what your career can be when you understand what motivates and drives you, what makes you you.

Sarah Ellis: So, how can you get started on values?  Maybe you've done this before and it's never quite clicked for you, or maybe you just need some click clues to get started.  So, we call this idea for action high/low learning.  This is an exercise you can definitely do by yourself, but if you do have a work best friend, someone you trust, perhaps they're not necessarily at work, maybe they're just in your network, maybe they're somebody you've worked with previously, this is quite a nice exercise to do with someone else, because it makes it a little bit easier, and also you've got somebody who shines a mirror back to you a bit in terms of what they've heard from you. So, the way that you do the high/low learning exercise, and it's just what it says on the tin, is you pick a high from your career so far, and then you also pick a low.  If you are doing this with someone else, you're just going to share what was happening in that high, what were you working on; who were you working with; what did a day in the life look like for you? 

So, just bring to life that high for that other person so they really get a feel for what was happening. Then spend some time on the low.  We do tend to have better memories on the low, so just make sure you spend enough time on the high, as well as then thinking when you had a low moment in your career, what was getting in the way; what was missing; why did it feel hard?  Just bring it to life for the other person.  The person then listening, their job is just to really focus on what you're saying, be 100% present, and maybe they're jotting down for you some of the words that they hear repeatedly, because we've done this exercise so many different times, and we've done a more extended version of this exercise and you don't realise the words that you're saying. So, if Helen was doing this for me now, we would all hear her say some version of the word "freedom", you know, "I really liked it because I could make my own decisions", well that's because she got lot of freedom; or, "I felt really free to be accountable for the work that I was doing", okay, that's freedom.  So, it often reveals our values through our stories, through sharing some simple stories about a time where things have gone well and a time where things have probably been a bit of a struggle, you're probably in one of those knotty moments in your Squiggly Career.

The more you look at what your highs have in common and what you can learn from your lows, the more I think you start to understand those motivators and drivers, those values, because when you are on a high, your values are very present, they're part of your day-to-day, they're part of the work that you do.  Even though we don't have work values and personal values, here when we look at this through the lens of our work, we would expect those values to show up in the work that we're doing.  So, one of my values, for example, is ideas.  If I'm having a really high moment in my career, I would have lots of space to be creating in the job that I'm doing, lots of space to create new ideas to do things differently. When we're having those lows, those knotty moments, it usually means those values are either just not there, so they're missing, so let's say that I'm in a job where I don't get to create anything new; maybe it's more about building on what's already been done before, so it could be as simple as that.  It might not be a bad job, I might actually like the people I work with, it's just I don't get the opportunity to use that ideas value.  Or, there might be a real tension with a value, which does create a real knotty moment. Let's say, I do, I love ideas, and then I'm working in a place or a culture that really doesn't value ideas, for whatever reason, or maybe that's really not what's needed in that moment, that then feels really hard, because you're bringing your values and then there's maybe a real contrast or conflict in some way with that thing that's very important to you.

Helen Tupper: I always think as well, once you talk about this with other people, and it has to be the right people that you can have this conversation with, because let's say we were going through a period of organisational difficulty, and actually do you know what, it's not the right time to launch new products and services.  So, if we previously had thought about that's what your ideas value gave you, you were the person that worked in the innovation team, and I go, "Hold innovation, we're hunkering down", in theory you'd be like, "Oh, God, this is awful, because that thing that makes me me is not possible for me to do". But once you know that ideas are so important to you, you can sometimes do a bit of a reframe and go, "Okay, well I can't use that in the same way, but maybe I can take this need I have to come up with ideas and use it in a slightly different context to help us think about what ideas I've got of how people can stay motivated during this period of change".  So, it just helps you to really think, I think, a bit more deeply about what you need when you're working outside of it and how that need gets fulfilled, so that you just feel a bit more in control of your happiness at work.

Sarah Ellis: And if you go on amazingif.com, under our free careers toolkit, we've got a new tool that's all about exploring your values, and in that tool it's got five different exercises all about your values, and one of them is high/low learning, so you'll be able to visually see that.  We've basically put all of the exercises we've ever done, that have worked really well about values, all into that one place now for free.  If values is where you want to spend some time, if you want to increase your motivation, you want to find more fulfilment, I'd really recommend spending some time with that, doing some of those exercises.  Like we said, you don't have to do them all at once, but hopefully they'll help you make some progress in terms of understanding and applying your values to the work that you do.

Helen Tupper: And if you're a manager, we've also done a podcast episode on How you Can Talk About Your Values in Teams, so you can make this something that really starts to stick. So, Squiggly skill number three is all about confidence.  I always think this for me is like an anchor in the skills, because if we haven't got confidence, it's really hard to take action.  So, all of these skills are about awareness and then action, and confidence is often the enabler, I think, of action.  So, what does it mean when we're talking about confidence?  It means that you have got belief in yourself, and that you also have other people believing in you too.  It's like two sides of the confidence coin.  It's really important that you know that people believe in you, that people want you to do well, that they are supporting you and willing you to succeed; that's really important for your confidence.  Because, if it's just you believing in you, I sometimes think that can be a bit shaky.  Like, if I'm thinking, "I think I can do it", and Sarah's like, "No, I don't think you can --"

Sarah Ellis: I don't!

Helen Tupper: -- then suddenly, that doubt starts to creep in, the gremlins start to grow, maybe Sarah's right.  So, it is important that you do have people that believe in you, as well as you believing in yourself too.  And the reason why is, if you've got this strong self-belief, you can be braver, you can say yes to things that might feel a bit scary, you can have what might seem like difficult conversations about your career. If you were going to let go of the ladder, it's likely that you are going to do something different with your development than other people have done, and that's likely to lead to some conversations that other people might not be expecting, or might not have had before, and that will create options and opportunities for you, but doesn't always feel easy.  But your confidence is the enabler to those career conversations.  That is why it is so important.  If you build your self-belief, you will be braver, you will have a more individual career, and that's what we want for everybody, to succeed in Squiggly Careers.

Sarah Ellis: And, do you know what, I read an example of someone describing this in a spot-on way yesterday on LinkedIn, where she was saying I think it was six years ago, she made what was the bravest decision in her career, which was basically to leave behind the ladder, but also a job and a career that she was really enjoying.  So, it wasn't that she was hating something, but that she just felt that she could find more fulfilment from trying out something different. So, she moved into this new industry, she squiggled somewhere different, taking lots of transferable talents with her, and she was reflecting, six years on, how brilliant it had been, all the different squiggles that she'd been able to make in this organisation, and then this new role that she got that she was really excited about.  So, she almost exactly made that connection between, sometimes as you start to squiggle, you do need to take a deep breath and it does require a lot of bravery, but she had very clearly done that based on her self-belief.  It doesn't mean that it's all going to be plain sailing, because we know there's no such thing as a straight line to success in Squiggly Careers. The other thing I would say around confidence is we don't want the inevitable knotty moments to mean knockbacks. 

So, there will be times where things outside of your control make things challenging in your Squiggly Career: restructures, redundancies, changes of boss, general change.  It's a long list and it's not a hard one to come up with.  And I think those moments have a real tendence to -- of course they're going to impact our confidence in that moment, but we want that ability to continue to make positive progress, to have that underlying self-belief that I think is so important.  It always makes me sad when people will describe certain moments in their career where those things have happened, and actually maybe it's taken them a long time to rediscover that confidence, and we don't want to suddenly lose all of our self-belief when some of those things outside of our control do come our way.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I totally agree.  We all have tough times, but the confidence is almost the ability to contain it and not let yourself be defined by that difficult period, I say that thinking of some myself, and making sure there's not a hangover of the hard times; I think confidence can stop that. So, the idea for action here is to reflect on your very small successes.  So, I always think about this that self-belief is often built below the surface, so it is not smiling a lot in meetings and it is not sitting up straight, it's not that kind of stuff.  Actual self-belief is what's within you, it's how you feel about your work, like do you think you could do a good job; it's how you feel about your worth, do you believe that you deserve to do well. The reason successes are important is because people who have a strong level of self-belief, they can see their successes.  They do not ignore mistakes they've made or areas for improvement, but they have perspective, they can see the work that they are doing well.  Whereas, what you often see with people who've got low levels of self-belief is the doubts drown out their development and their mistakes get magnified in their mind.  That's the stuff they remember when it feels particularly tough, they can't see their way through to the work they do well.

It is a relatively simple habit to build, to start to reflect more regularly on your very small successes.  It is as simple as, at the end of the day, just taking a moment to press pause and write down, "What three things have I done well today?"  And what's important is that when you're thinking about your successes, it doesn't have to be super-sized.  So it doesn't have to be, "Today I got promoted", because guess what, that doesn't happen every day. It can be, "Today I got through my inbox".  I mean, I never do that so that wouldn't go on my list, but it can be, "Today, I did an action that I've been putting off for the last two weeks".  That might go on my very small successes list!  It might be, "I went for a walk at lunch and I got some fresh air and I felt a bit clearer for my afternoon meetings", or it could be, this would be one of mine, "I stood up for a whole meeting".  I've got a standing desk.  The amount of time I actually stand up at my desk is very rare.  Actually doing that and remembering to do it I would count as a small success. It's just you taking a moment to think, "What have I done well; what has my positive contribution been today?" 

And the way Sarah and I, I guess, get more out of this particular exercise is what we call "the three Rs".  So, number one, remember to do this.  Set yourself a period you're going to do it, say two weeks, and set yourself some kind of reminder in your diary, or whatever works for you, but don't forget to do it.  Habits are hard to build, so make it easier by putting a reminder somewhere that's going to work for you. Second, record these very small successes somewhere, on your phone, on a notepad, whatever, just put them down.  That means it's a bit stickier in your brain, and it also enables the third R, which is reflect, because once you've put these down on paper, or wherever they are, you've got something to look back on, and that has two benefits for you.  One, those very small successes start to seem quite a lot more significant, because you've got a much longer list of them, and you'll appreciate much more of the work you're doing well, the work we often miss because we're doing so much stuff, we don't stop to see our successes, so that's one benefit. The second, and this is something that I've realised more recently actually when I've done this, is you really start to realise what success means to you, because the things that you write down are what you think's important and what you think you want to be recognised and what you want to see as success.  So, you can look at that list and it might be, "Success is that I have work/life balance"; "Success is that I help other people to succeed", whatever it is.  But when we're designing our Squiggly Careers, it is really important that you understand what success means to you; it really helps us to unhook from that ladderlike view of, "Success just equals seniority", and get to a more individual definition.  So, there are lot of benefits, both in terms of your self-belief, of doing this exercise, but also in terms of your definition of success too.

Sarah Ellis: And I think you can do this in a few different ways.  If you are somebody that loves to build habits, maybe you're someone who would journal, you could do very small successes at the end of every day, it literally takes a minute.  And actually, the more you do it, I think the faster you do it, because you start to recognise the small wins along the way.  Or if you're like me and I'm never going to commit to doing the same thing every day because variety is one of my values, I come back to this exercise every time I'm not feeling great.  So, if it is a tough day or a tough project or a tough month, I always come back to this; I sort of reinstall it in my day. Sometimes, honestly in those hard days, it can feel like nothing is going right, and my top tip then is to make sure you do it at the very end of your day.  So I find if I do it at 10.00pm at night, hopefully at least I've got some successes from the rest of my life, even if my work day has really felt that hard.  And then again, that just makes you feel a bit more optimistic the next day than you did the day before, so that's how I use it. We also use this as a team, because I do think confidence and self-belief is often seen through the lens of individuals, "How can I be more confident; how can I build my belief?" and that's really important, but I also think we can help each other to have collective confidence.  So for example, the one thing that we do commit to every week is every Friday, we do Win of the Week. 

So, we have an all-company channel on Teams for Amazing If and on a Friday, someone will just head into there, and it usually tends to be one of the first things that we all do on a Friday, and we just say Win of the Week, and then everyone just shares what their Win of the Week has been. Again, sometimes that's more of a personal thing, sometimes that's more from work, but what's so lovely about that is you support and celebrate and shine a spotlight on what's gone well that week, and it gives you a real insight again into what's been happening, because you don't spend time with everybody and it gives you a bit of a window into people's world.  And honestly, every Friday it gives me a boost and really good momentum reading everybody else's Wins of the Week. So, the fourth skill is network, and we define this, so what is network, what is networking as, "People helping people".  It is probably the one where the definition really does matter.  This is not about how many people that you know, how many connections you've got on LinkedIn, it's people helping people, help being the unlocker here in terms of what we're trying to achieve. Why is this important?  Nobody succeeds in their Squiggly Career by themselves, we all need to have the right people around us.  And if you are listening to this and you don't like the word "networking", I get it.  Sometimes we will describe this as creating your career community, or think about it as how you build the relationships that are relevant for you in your career.  Let go of the word.  If the word is really getting in your way, let go of it. 

And if you are an introvert like me, and the idea of walking into a room full of hundreds of people is terrifying, which I also very much understand, again I think that is quite a ladderlike view of what networking looks like. Some of my best networks exist on WhatsApp.  Some of the best relationships I've had have been one-to-one.  So, I think what's really important about this is figuring out how to do this in a way that works for you, whilst not giving yourself the excuse that you can ignore this like, "This is not for me", because I think your career will be more vulnerable and you will be more vulnerable if you don't spend some time on this.  But equally, and I know from experience, if you try to do this in a way that doesn't work for you, you just won't do it either.  So, we've got to figure out what people helping people looks and feels like for you. We find the four Cs, we've got a four Cs framework we're going to talk you through, is a really helpful way for you to get started to think about how could you help other people, because we know that when you help other people, usually it feels more rewarding than maybe starting with what you're hoping to gain, so starting with giving rather than gaining usually feels more natural, but also the more you give, the more you gain.  We did an episode previously on Creating Career Karma, so we think this all creates career karma.  So, we'll talk through these four Cs and as you're listening, perhaps think about which one of these could you do more of, or could you start doing; which feels most comfortable for you?

So, the first C is Consumer.  So, this is really thinking about what you gain along the way, so it could be knowledge, experience, learning; and how could you give that to other people?  It could be one person who you work with, it could be your team, it could be a network that you're a part of.  And here, my watch-out to make sure that you don't cheat, because I used to do this and think that I was "networking" and definitely wasn't, is if you're just learning and keeping it to yourself, that's absolutely fine, but that is learning for you; you're not people helping people, you're just you helping yourself. A great example is, I went to an event with Jen Moss on burnout last week, because Jen's been on our podcast, she was in London over from Canada and I was like, "Brilliant, great, chance to meet her in person and listen to a topic that I'm really interested in", and I've not done anything with what I learnt that evening.  So, that doesn't count as being a consumer.  I learnt, I've just not shared it or given it to anyone else.  But if I do, or if I had done that, that would be a really good example of me taking something that I'd consumed and then gone, "How could this be helpful for other people?"  That might have been a LinkedIn post, that could have been as simple as sharing three things that I learnt that evening with our Amazing If team; that would have been a really good example of doing that. The second C is Contributor.  So, this is really actively considering, what have you got to give; who are you going to give it to; and how are you going to give it? 

We all have something to contribute.  So, you might be listening to this thinking, "I've got nothing to give".  You might give your passion, you could give your optimism, you could give your time, you could give a really specific technical skill that you might have.  Maybe you're an absolute whizz-kid on Excel formulas.  Everybody has something to give, we just sometimes have to figure out, what is that think that you want to give; and then, who is the group of people that would really benefit from it? This was a really big unlocker for me in terms of people helping people and finding a way to network that worked for me.  And when I figured out that what I could give was enthusiasm and a passion for career development, I wouldn't say it was expertise at that time, it was much more enthusiasm than expertise, and then I could actually give my time as well, because at that moment I'd got time outside of work to volunteer or bring people together, it's when I started creating career development experiences for groups of people to come together who wanted to invest in their career, outside of the day job.  So, it was typically evenings, whether it was workshops, or a cohort of people coming together to learn a bit from me and then a bit from some other people, I figured out I could make that happen.

That for me suddenly meant that I increased my connections, my career community, I felt like I was being really helpful and it never felt like hard work.  You know that point about helpful versus hard work?  Until that point, networking always felt like really hard work, something I felt I should do.  When I figured out what I'd got to give, suddenly I felt helpful and it was, unbelievably, even the thing that I often most looked forward to.  So, the chance to bring people together to increase their self-awareness about careers, to spend some time thinking about their strengths or where they wanted their career to take them, for me was the highlight of my week.  So suddenly, this idea of network became a really positive thing for me. The third C is Connector.  So, this is where you've got good connections and you don't keep those connections to yourself, you're generous with those connections.  So, that's just thinking about, "Who could I connect to who in a way that would be useful?"  So, I know that Helen is really passionate about being an expert in career development; who else do I know who's really developed their expertise in a certain area?  Could I connect those two people together?  It's thinking, who do I know, and then doing that "yes, and…", "I know those people, I'm going to make that introduction, I'm going to bring people together". The fourth C is Creator.  If a network doesn't exist that you want to be part of, start one.  You don't need to put loads of pressure or expectation on yourself of what that has to look like or where that has to go, it can be two people, it could be on WhatsApp, it could be on LinkedIn, you can just make things happen for yourself, and it's a brilliant way to bring people together.  I've done lots of creating in terms of networks and again, it works really well for me because I can design it in a way that works for me, I really enjoy bringing people with different skills and expertise together. So, just think about those four Cs: Consumer, Contributor, Connector, Creator, and just think, "Would one of those help me in terms of people helping people, and to really start creating a career community that's going to help me to squiggle with success?"

Helen Tupper: And then, the fifth and final Squiggly skill is all about you and your career possibilities.  So, this is about being curious and creating, not waiting, when it comes to your career.  The ladderlike approach is sort of do your job, work really hard, do it well, and then decide you want to do something different, and then apply for a job.  And it's like, I don't know, it's very stop/start I think in terms of how you think about your career future.  You might write a plan that predicts what you're going to do over the next ten years and then you put it away in a drawer and bring it out when you decide you want to do something different.  But the problem is the opportunities might not be there for you, you've not necessarily got curious about your career to decide if it's something you really want to do.  That kind of just apply for a job when you decide you want to do something different, is a really ladderlike way of managing your career development, and we want to increase your options, increase your opportunities; and being proactively curious about your career possibilities is the way that you do that. The reason why, like why bother getting proactive about your career possibilities?  I think you benefit more from a Squiggly Career.  Squiggly Careers mean you can develop in different directions, you don't have to be defined by the last job that you did.  But you have to put yourself beyond the world of work that you're in today to see what that could be for you, and that's why we're trying to unlock this career possibility. 

I think lots of the time, people get blinkered by the world of work that they're in and they can't really see beyond it, or they put their own barriers and assumptions around what they could and couldn't do.  And getting curious, I think it helps you get over those hurdles that we've often created for ourselves in our careers and see what's beyond, and that's why. So, the idea for action here is to start having regular curious career conversations.  And your agenda for a curious career conversation is just to find out more about somebody else's world of work.  What we're trying to do is work out, is this a world of work that is interesting for you; could it be a possibility that you want to explore further in the future?  Now, this can sound quite daunting, because we're basically saying, "Go talk to somebody that you don't necessarily work with on a day-to-day basis and find out more about their work". As an extrovert, I'm like, "Yes, brilliant, I can't wait!"  If you're an introvert, I was on a session with someone yesterday and they were like, "Helen, this sounds really scary".  And I get it, because you might be thinking, "What do I talk to that person about?"  We have got a bit of a Squiggly script that is useful for a starting point for these conversations, and I find this a really good way to make sure that you're learning, you're staying curious in the conversation, but you're not distracted by, "What am I supposed to say?" So, three things that are useful for your Squiggly starter script for a curious career conversation.  Number one, ask somebody about what a day in their work life looks like.  That is quite easy for somebody else to respond to and people quite like talking about themselves and their work, so it's a good warmup question.  And what you can have in the back of your mind is, "Does a day in that person's work life sound like a day that I would like to do?"  You don't have to say anything to them, you don't have to be like, "That sounds amazing, I want your job" or, "That sounds horrendous, you can keep it"; you don't have to share!

Sarah Ellis: "No thanks!"

Helen Tupper: "No thanks, good luck!"  That is personal reflections!  But it's a useful way of you gaining some insight quite subtly about different worlds of work that might be beyond the one you're in today, so always ask that question first. The second is, I would try to explore something around strengths and values, because essentially whatever you're doing in the future, you want to make sure that those roles need what you want to be known for, so that's the strengths; and that the things that motivate and drive you are going to be possible in that particular role or team.  So, I would say to somebody, "What are the strengths that you use regularly in your role?" or, "What is it that really motivates you about the work that you do?"  And again, you're listening for clues.  Are the words that they play back similar to your strengths, similar to your values, or are they very separate and distinct and different because if they are, it might be a good job for that person, but it might not be a brilliant possibility for you. 

Again, it's totally fine to come to that conclusion; we're not applying for jobs, we're just getting curious about our career. Then the last question that I would ask, particularly if I started to go, "This day sounds interesting and this could be a good fit for me", is I ask around development.  I would say to somebody, "If this was an area that I was interested in exploring more in the future, is there any experience or expertise that you think it would be useful for me to have?" because that insight is what helps you to futureproof yourself.  Because if they say, "Oh, yeah, it's really good if you get some experience of managing a team, or having budget management experience", or whatever it is, then you can think, "Okay, what can I do in the work that I do today that would help me to get more of that, so that if I do go for that role in the future, I can talk to them about the experience that I've already got that's relevant for it?" So, what we'll do, we'll create a little Squiggly script, we'll put this in the PodSheet and maybe we'll create a little social media asset or something, so that you can get a quick view of this Squiggly script.  But they are three questions that can really get you started in a curious career conversation.

Sarah Ellis: I often ask people in workshops for examples, like what questions could you ask, and some of them are just brilliant.  I love the ones where people get quite spiky, "What do you find really frustrating?" or, "What do you love and what do you loathe?"  "What would you take away from your job, or what would you stop doing if you could wave a magic wand?" and depending on how well you know the person, obviously you can have quite a lot of fun with this, because I think I'd love someone to ask me those kinds of questions about what I do, I think that's really interesting.  And I think just remember, as an introvert, curious career conversations can feel daunting to ask for, but people really enjoy helping other people.  It gives us what we call the helpers' high, and it's really flattering to be asked to share your experiences. So, as an introvert, I set myself the goal of one curious career conversation every month. 

Sometimes, that might be someone who's asked me, sometimes that might be me asking someone else, but I think if I do one a month, after a year I would have spoken to 12 people and had a different kind of conversation to my day-to-day job and day-to-day work, and you never quite know, I think, where those connections can take you.  It doesn't mean you're necessarily going to go and do all of those jobs, but my other top tip for those conversations is always finish them, especially if you're like me, an introvert with, "That's been so helpful, thank you.  Do you know anyone else who you think it would be helpful for me to talk to?" and so many times, eight or nine out of ten times, people finish that up and go, "Yes, and…"  "Oh, yeah, you should speak to Tom, he's really helpful.  Do you want me to introduce you?" and I just think, "Yes, please", because suddenly that's my next curious career conversation and I've not had to do a cold outreach; it just feels much easier for me to take that approach.  So, I always love finishing my conversations in that way.

Helen Tupper: I had an idea that I'm going to put you on the spot for --

Sarah Ellis: Oh, go on!

Helen Tupper: -- that all of our listeners can now hear!  I was thinking, why don't we, so that people can practise asking some questions, why don't we do a LinkedIn Live, where people can have a curious career conversation with us?

Sarah Ellis: Oh, that's a great idea.  No, I love that.

Helen Tupper: They can ask us questions about us, our careers, whatever they want, and they can practise in a relatively safe space, putting these questions to us, knowing that we'll hopefully be able to answer them!  So listeners, if you think that is a good idea, maybe email us and we're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, and if we get enough responses, I don't know, what's enough, Sarah, ten?!

Sarah Ellis: I don't know, I think I'd be flattered if anyone was interested, to be honest!

Helen Tupper: So, let us know and then we can do a LinkedIn Live, and then people, you can just join and practise your skills with us in a safe environment.

Sarah Ellis: So don't forget, you've got the PodSheet which is a brilliant one-page summary.  So, if you want to get everything in one place for the podcast, so the PodNotes and the PodSheets, if you sign up for PodMail, which you'll find on our website, we will every week just send you that so you've got everything in one place.  We make it really easy, all free, all the resources that we create, that's probably your go-to place.  And you can always find us on LinkedIn, we're @amazingif, and you can email us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, if you ever get a bit stuck, or you've got ideas for other episodes, or you just need our help with something.

Helen Tupper: So, thank you so much for listening to us and our five Squiggly skills, and we'll be back with you again very soon.  Bye for now, everyone.

Sarah Ellis: Thanks for listening, everyone.  Bye for now.