Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:49: Some common risky career decisions
00:04:08: Six factors that make a decision a risky one
00:10:02: Ideas for action…
00:10:36: … 1: enjoyment and capability
00:16:57: … 2: progression
00:24:52: … 3: money
00:35:03: … 4: status
00:39:57: … 5: relationships
00:44:20: Final thoughts

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where every week we talk to you about some ideas and some tools that we just hope will help you, and they do always help us, to navigate all of our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And we have spent some time beyond just the conversation we're having with you today creating lots of resources to help you dive a bit deeper into the stuff that we cover on the podcast.  So, whether you like some extra reflection and you might benefit from downloading our PodSheet, or whether you're a speedy learner and you'd like to swipe through our PodNote, or whether you want to talk to some other people about this stuff, we've got PodPlus.  All of those things are created for you and they are all free to help you learn and support you with your career, and you can get all the information for them either on our website, amazingif.com, or on the show notes, mainly on Apple I think is easiest to find it.  And if you ever can't find it, just email us, we're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: So, today we're going to be talking about how to de-risk career decisions.  Who knew that was something that we needed to learn how to do?  But as we've dived into this, we have decided it is quite useful and there's some good ideas for action that we're going to share with you.  And the reason we thought this might be helpful as a topic for today's conversation is firstly, we know that in Squiggly Careers, we are making more decisions, there are more choices coming our way.  

Some of those things are things that are in our control that we're perhaps trying to decide which is the right possibility or option or opportunity to explore, and sometimes those decisions are out of our control, so we're almost put on the spot to go, "Okay, what is the right thing to do?" When we're considering decisions to make in our career, I think risks can become a reason not to make a change.  And when those risks get in our way, it means that we can become frustrated, perhaps we stall, we feel stuck; maybe we don't make progress towards our potential.  I almost feel like we don't then make the most of our Squiggly Careers if we don't understand our own risk profile, but also if we don't understand what we can do to mitigate those risks.  We might leave things that could be available to us that actually we might really enjoy, or that could be really exciting or really interesting. What we're not saying is we should all be really hedonistic after today, just go wild and do whatever you want to do, as I hope you would all expect, listeners who come back week after week; we're going to be very practical and pragmatic about these career decisions and how you look at these risks, and equally what to do if things go wrong as well.

Helen Tupper: You've got me thinking though now, Sarah, about a wild week at work, other than the alliteration of that!  I'm like, "What would I do if I could go wild for a week at work; what would that look like?"  I might ponder on that after today!  But slightly less wild, we thought there might be some common career decisions that might be likely to feel like a bit of a risk, the sort of territory we're talking about today. For example, maybe you're moving from being employed to a career decision that might be about becoming self-employed; Sarah and I have both done that and that does feel like a really risky thing, if you've only ever worked in that employed and salaried status.  It might be changing the working week for you, so maybe you're moving from full time to part time; that can feel like a risk on lots of levels, even the conversation to just talk about that can feel like a risk sometimes.  Moving from one industry to another, so maybe you're moving from a highly commercial industry to maybe you're working in the not-for-profit sector, something like that; that shift in industry can feel like a bit of a career risk.  

Or maybe it's from one area of expertise to another, like a professional career change.  For example, maybe you're moving from procurement to sales or something like that; those sorts of moves that we make that don't feel like an everyday thing, it's a bigger decision and that feeling of risk can get in the way of doing it for your development. When Sarah and I were thinking about risk and trying to zoom out a little bit and we were like, "Why is it a risk; what are we actually worried about?" and we unpacked that word, there's quite a lot behind why you might feel that this particular career decision has a lot of risk involved in it.  So, we have identified six factors; let us know if there are more, if you're like, "You still haven't talked about this issue!" let us know.  But we've got six.

So, the first risk that we thought impacts your decision is enjoyment.  So, you might be thinking, "What if I don't enjoy it?  What if I decide to do that thing and then I don't enjoy it?"  The second one could be something to do with your capability so, "What if I'm not good at it?"  The third one could be progression, "What if I do it; does my career go backwards?"  The fourth one might be about money so, "Will I have enough money if I do this thing?"  The fifth is about status, and you might be thinking there's ego tied to this one and not a lot of people are very good at this, admitting it, but it might sound like, "What will other people think of me?"  Or, one of mine in the past was, "Who am I if I don't do this?"  There was definitely more of an identity fear involved in it.  Then the last risk could be about relationships, "Will people still want to stay connected with me; will people still want to support me if I make this Squiggly Career decision?" So, it might be worth you thinking about those six factors, and we'll put them in the PodSheet, if it helps you to reflect on them in your own time, but just which is the risk that impacts your career decision-making the most.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I wonder if we have some risks that stay with us, almost regardless of a career decision, and some that end up being specific to the type of decision that you're making.  I also think it's helpful, when I was going back over career decisions I've made, to almost map what are those risks; because, when I was looking at it, I was like, "Oh, that's really interesting".  When I moved from being employed to working in Amazing If for the first time, every single one of those risks, so all six of those risks, felt really real for me.  So, that's really high risk, and it's worth acknowledging that and understanding that, because that will perhaps feel very different.  If you've got all six of those things in play all at once, that's a lot to overcome; that will probably feel hard and particularly scary. I think when I first moved from working full time to part time, it was three of them, particularly actually progression and status.  So, I think I was worried, "Will I still be able to progress in my career if I work part time?"; and status, "Are people going to be judging me for not working full time?"  I'd got the money one a bit, but practically I'd figured that one out.  It actually felt ironically less of a risk, because almost I couldn't even consider it if I'd not done the money thing. Then, when I moved from marketing to corporate responsibility, there were different risks.  It was actually enjoyment and capability.  So, I did have a real sense of, "I already enjoy what I do, so I'm now moving to an unknown where I don't know if I'm going to enjoy it, and I know that I'm good at what I do today and now I don't know if I will be good or not".  So again, those two things came together and felt like the main risks. So, I think risks do change, depending on the context and the decision you're making, and it's almost just worth thinking about what's that risk profile for any decision.

Helen Tupper: I sort of want to do a drawing, like map your moves and rate your risks, so for each one of those moves you're looking at them.  I was thinking about some of my moves that I've made that have been riskier career decisions, so probably industry-changing stuff; definitely leaving the corporate life to scaling Amazing If felt like quite a big risk to make.  And then if I just do a quick risk rating across those moves, I think there was a combination of status definitely, "What will other people think about me?" and then mine probably would have been a bit failure, which is I think linked to that progression one, a bit like, "What if ultimately this isn't a good move for me to make, will it look bad on my CV?" that was probably what I would have thought about. I think I used to be very status and identity anchored to my CV like, "What does my CV say about me?" whereas I've got over that now!  And relationships like, "I love the community I've built around my career and if I've made a decision that would take me away from a particular world of work", like marketing for example, I probably had a sense of, "Well, will those people still want to know me?" and I think a lot of it is rooted in identity for me, when I just reflect on those different moves and the risks; probably, yeah, being so tied to the work that I do in my identity that most of my risks are associated with that.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I guess because you are someone who is very committed to your career and you care about it a lot, it is a big part of what you find meaningful and motivating, so you then go, "It sort of makes sense that then those are the risks", like if it's going to jeopardise those things, it will always feel harder for you.  Whereas, there might be some specific context where that might change, or some new ones might come in.

Helen Tupper: It's also, I was thinking about that facts versus feelings thing when you've got all this.  Making a career decision could be quite a fact-based thing like, "Does it need my skills?" all that kind of stuff.  But then what you're introducing is a whole load of feelings and fears, and I think that can cloud the clarity of your decision-making, which also just makes it all feel quite a lot harder.  So, what Sarah and I want to do is I guess de-cloud, is that a word; de-cloud the decision for you?

Sarah Ellis: No, not really!

Helen Tupper: All right, give you a bit more clarity, maybe just try to press pause a little bit on fears and feelings that might be a bit overwhelming, and help you, depending on which one of those risks that you relate to, give you some really useful, simple ideas for action that can help you feel a bit more confident about the decision, whether the decision is to move forward with that thing, or the decision might be to not take it forward, you might decide.  But I think it's about the confidence in making either of those decisions.

Sarah Ellis: So, for each of the areas, we're going to go through the risk, the resolution and what to do if the risk becomes a reality.  So, as Helen described, you might decide actually that risk is too big, in which case you will feel very differently about making that choice, because it's been very conscious, so that's good, that's a good thing; or, you might find you do make the move and it doesn't work out, you know, you take that decision and sometimes things don't go the way you planned.  So, I think it's also important to acknowledge that and say, "Okay, what might we do in that example as well, in that situation?" So, first we're going to take on the risk of enjoyment and capability, so we're bringing together those two areas, "What if I don't enjoy it; what if I'm not good at it?"  This is where I think the resolution is as much as possible to look before you leap.  You know the jump-in-the-deep-end type advice is really bad advice here, like, "Just go for it!" 

I think there are so many ways now that you can dip your toe in the water if you are thinking about changing industry, if you're thinking about going from a really big company to a really small company; if you're thinking about going from one area of expertise to another. Can you volunteer; so, is there something outside of work that would just get you a bit closer to that decision that you're considering?  Can you go and have curious career conversations with people who are already doing that thing that you think you would like to do?  Can you do a small passion project, side project, that just starts to get you some experience, or again gets you a bit of insight into what it's really like working in that world?  Can you become part of networks; can you become part of communities?  Yes, you'll never quite know everything, so I think you could almost use this as an excuse to never make a move, almost keep exploring forever, and I'm someone who likes exploring, so I can actually imagine myself falling into this trap. But I do think you could now, particularly with things being more open and more transparent, you can start to get a feel for whether your skills and strengths will be a good fit, whether you think you'll like the working environment, whether you think you'll like the people, and that can just give you a bit more of a sense of confidence, I think, in terms of making that decision, "I do get the sense actually, everyone I've talked to, I've got on well with and I think I could learn from, I think I'd enjoy spending time with them", okay, great, "and I'm a brilliant problem-solver and I keep hearing about that's what we need.  We've got a lot of complexity, so the people who tend to enjoy being in this industry or this area of the company are people who really like grappling with interesting problems", and you know that about yourself, and I think it just gives you a bit of the momentum to overcome that risk and do something that will still feel scary, I don't think these resolutions stop things feeling scary.  I think maybe it just gives you the nudge you need for yourself to go, "I'm going to be brave".

Helen Tupper: One of the toe-dipping things I've done as well, which I don't know if this is scary or not, but going to a conference, let's say you're like, "I think maybe I want to work in that area or that industry", but it feels a bit scary and that might stop you; often most industries have some kind of industry conference that happens, and sometimes they're free and sometimes you might have to pay for a ticket or work it out. 

But I think when you go for a day and you see the types of people that are there, and you see the sorts of things they're presenting, you get a vibe. For example I've worked in the oil and gas industry, the technology industry, and marketing more broadly in lots of different places, and the conferences that I have been to, and learning and development conferences, very different vibe!  Some of the conversations that have gone on at those events, I've been much excited about.  The people have been much more interesting to me, just my perspective on it, but I've wanted to sit down and have those discussions, and there's been just a different energy level.  And I think that could just give you a window into that world that you're not committing to, but you can think, "Does this look like something that's going to be a good fit for me?" and it's a very light-touch way of seeing into it.

Sarah Ellis: And one other thing, and I guess this relates back to passion side projects, and I know a few people now who are doing this where they're thinking, "There's this thing that I'm interested in, but I'm not sure"; if you can partner up with anyone, so if you know anyone else who's thinking along the same lines as you, particularly maybe if you want to start your own thing, or maybe you're thinking about doing something different, again if you can just get something started, you know that point that no change comes unless you take action, I feel like if you're like me and you're a thinker and you're a reflector, you can get stuck in thinking about, "I wonder what it would be like in that area?" or, "It would be amazing if I could go and do that", but you never do anything about it". 

And I think we know change comes from action, so anything you can do, I think, to just move yourself forward. Then, what to do if the risk becomes a reality?  So, let's imagine now you've made the move, let's say I've moved from marketing to corporate responsibility, and I realise I'm not good at it and I don't enjoy it, or maybe one of those but not the other; that will sometimes happen.  I know quite a lot of people that has happened to. 

They've done that risk profiling, they've made that brave decision and for whatever reason, it's not worked out.  Maybe it's not worked out quite quickly, or maybe it's been okay for a bit, but ultimately it hasn't been the right move for them at that moment.  That doesn't mean you've made a bad decision, and that doesn't mean that you're not self-aware, or you've made a really big mistake; you can only make choices based on what you know in that moment.  Just sometimes, things don't work out in our Squiggly Careers. One of the things that I think can be helpful in that moment is if you've kept your connections from your previous company or area, or just previous people, where if things aren't going well, you can go back to those people and just see if there are any opportunities, see if other things open up.  So many people I see now, the flow of people, going in so many different directions.  I see people going back to previous managers, previous companies, going to work on a project basis, and I think that's brilliant, because it just means everyone's a bit more fluid in terms of going, "Oh well, that thing didn't work out, but do you know what, we've got a project, so if you're free, great, do you want to come and do this for six months while you think a bit about what you want to do next?" So, I think if you are making that move, don't forget those people, because those people can then be very helpful, just in case things don't go as you planned, and also it's really good just to stay in touch with those people, because you can keep learning from them in a different way.

Helen Tupper: So, the second risk that we identified was the one about progression, and so this is the one, as a reminder, that might sound like "If I do this, could my career go backwards?" and that always feels like a funny feeling, doesn't it, the idea of going backwards when we should always be moving forwards?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I have this fear so much.

Helen Tupper: I have this fear too.  So people go, "I don't want to go backwards", so maybe don't take this decision forwards.  So, the resolution here is to think, "What would be better because…?"  The point here is to not get so fixated on the role that's in front of you right now.  So you might think, "Maybe if I take that sideways move, my career might feel like it's going backwards".  But actually, if you think beyond just that move, and you think a bit further into your future and you think, "How could this move that I might now make help me get closer to what I might want to do in the future?" It's almost leapfrogging opportunities, rather than just looking at the role in front of you.  Think a couple of roles in front of you that might be interesting to you and think, "How would this role get me there?" because we're not trying to say any one job is perfect.  No one job is perfect.  And so, if you're thinking about it in a very binary way, like good decisions and bad decisions, you put quite a lot of pressure on the moves that you make.  But if you just think, "How is the move in front of me going to help me to get further forward? It reminds me, when I was thinking about this idea for action, it reminded me of my old driving instructor, Andy, who always had words of wisdom.  And when I was driving, it was probably because he was quite scared of my driving, he always used to say to me, "Helen, drive two cars in front!" as in, don't just look at the brake lights of the car in front of you, because if they're having to respond to the car in front of them, you're probably going to be too late in terms of your response.  So he was like, "Drive two cars ahead".  He was a very wise man.

He also used to say, when I was going a bit too fast on the road, "Helen, slow down, better to be late in this world than early in the next!"  Full of wisdom, Andy!  But I guess it's just that idea of what territories are interesting for you and your talents in the future, and just de-pressurise this move that you might make now and just think, "How could it help me learn more about that world I'm interested in in the future, or develop some experience or expertise that might get me closer to it?" and then it becomes less of a right and wrong move, and just something that gets you closer towards what you might want to do in the future.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and when I think about a couple of people who I think early on in a career had really recognised that progression was so much more than promotion, I remember thinking almost finding it quite hard to understand the decision that they'd made.  They were making a sideways move, or perhaps didn't accept a promotion that came their way because they were like, "I want to go and learn these other skills" or, "I want to broaden my skills first and I think this will ultimately be a more interesting experience", and I think they were absolutely right; because what they had done was spotted, "If I go and get these skills, in a couple of years' time that's going to be so valuable, and maybe I won't be able to get those skills in a couple of years' time. 

So, that will help me to be employable, that's going to increase my career resilience".  So, I think sometimes it is just letting go of the ladder. It's also I think sometimes letting go of what you think you should be doing, and maybe what other people think you should be doing.  So, that pressure to always move, you know, "Onwards and upwards", even that phrase and you're like, "Well, moving onwards doesn't necessarily mean moving upwards", it might just be doing things very differently.  But I think this is a hard one to let go of, and it does take a lot of confidence.  I think confidence is intertwined with managing this risk for yourself.

Helen Tupper: And then, if the risk does become a reality, so let's say you decide to do something that has been a risk in your mind to your progression, because you feel like, "Well, maybe this wasn't the right move to make", then I think the really important thing for you to have in your head is don't feel like you have to stick it out for the sake of your CV.  I think a lot of people end up unhappy because they make a move, it isn't quite what they wanted it to be, and then they feel like they have to sit in and stick it out for 18 months to 2 years, and they're really unhappy and they don't make the impact and they're not positive about the relationships they're building.  It has so many ripples of impact when you're not happy in your role, and you can move in less than a year and it will not be a disaster for your development. Sarah and I have both done this in our career, and you might want to think about the story that you tell to explain making that move sooner than other people might expect you to do, you might want to think about that.  But I think you don't have to stick it out.  The most important thing is that you are happy and you are learning, and if those things are not true, then it is not the right role for you and you should feel positive about finding something different.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think when I reflect back on that learning point, that's probably where it gave me the confidence to move on quickly, because I've always wanted to feel like I was progressing and learning; learning is one of my values, and I definitely chose one role at a certain point where it felt like the right thing to do, but very quickly I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to get to learn what I'd anticipated" and that's no one's fault.  It wasn't their fault and it wasn't my fault, but it was the reality of that role; it just wasn't the right fit for me. I'm so glad that I moved on from that quite quickly, and actually I moved on from that really positively. 

So, it wasn't like I left feeling like, "I feel really bad about myself", and actually, I didn't feel bad about those relationships, I think because quite quickly I'd been open and honest about I hadn't quite understand the reality of this role, I feel like I'm perhaps not learning the things I thought I was going to be.  And I think managers in organisations probably feel that too.  So, in some ways, it can be quite a relief if you've got supportive people, and I would say I had very supportive people, for everybody to acknowledge that, because then they can also think a bit about, "If Sarah's not the right fit here, probably we've got to make some adjustments in terms of who that role might be right for", and it gives everyone a bit more time and space to do that. It's very adult to adult, isn't it, if you can involve people?  And I do know a couple of other examples of people who've shared stories with me over the past couple of years, where they've definitely involved their manager or their mentor, or someone within their organisation, to go, "This progression hasn't quite worked out for me", so almost like, "shall we try and figure this out together?", rather than it being a shock or leaving it until everyone gets incredibly unhappy.

Helen Tupper: And I was thinking about, we do this together with each, and I know that's because we've got a lot of trust, but sometimes Sarah and I will unpack our roles with each other and be like, "What are we really enjoying, and what are we not?  And that can be really helpful.  You probably can't get rid of the stuff that you're not enjoying overnight, but having that honest conversation and someone else playing back to you and going, "Well, that is something that needs to be done", is it something that needs to be done by someone in your role; is it something that someone else can do; it's just a neutral conversation about career development. So, I think if you are somebody that is supporting someone in their career, like you're a manager or a mentor, or maybe someone's come to you, you're in an HR position, just taking the fear away from the conversation and almost being like, "Okay, walk me through a typical week at work.  What are you really enjoying doing; what are you not enjoying doing; and let's see what percentage of time that represents and whether there's something different we can do in the role, or whether this isn't the right role for you".  I wish we had more of those conversations and we made people feel less bad about it!

Sarah Ellis: That's definitely true.  So, the next risk is money, and the resolution here, and I think this is one that I've done a couple of times, more successfully actually in the last couple of years, is being really clear on your "enoughs".  I actually call it your "Enough Excel", because let's face it, it has to be an Excel spreadsheet; there's no getting away from that, I don't think!  There's probably more sophisticated solutions, but if you're a bit more basic like me, it probably has to be your Enough Excel. I think this is being very open and transparent to really looking at, "What does your enough look like when it comes to the cash that you need?"  I think we might have talked about this on the money podcast, maybe even last summer.  I've definitely used a zero-based budgeting approach to thinking about this.  Zero-based budgeting is something some people listening will be like --

Helen Tupper: Sounds fun, Sarah!

Sarah Ellis: I mean, it really is!  But some people listening perhaps have done it in their organisations and they're probably getting really tense just listening to us talk about it.  But in a more fun way, the idea here is that you start from scratch.  So, rather than just maybe, I don't know, looking at your bank account and using all of those numbers, you actually go, "Right, starting from zero, what are my musts in terms of I have very little option in terms of needing enough money to do those things?" 

So those things are your bills, which for most people are probably a bit higher now than they were unfortunately.  Those are things like your rent or your mortgage, your childcare.  Those things are very difficult to really change. Then also thinking about, beyond that, what does enough look and feel like for you?  I'm not a big fan, you know when you read those articles and everyone's just, "Well, just cut out your coffees and just cut out all of the small stuff that basically brings you joy in your life"; I personally am not sure how that would make me feel in terms of, "I've got some sort of job that then means that I can't buy myself a coffee".  That wouldn't quite work for me; maybe that does work for some people. But I think you do want to have this sense of what's most important to you. 

Maybe for you, you don't need the expensive coffee, but maybe you do really need your gym membership, because you love to feel fit and that's actually really important to you.  And very rarely have we really actually thought about what that number needs to be.  And I then think having those parameters in mind in terms of going, "Right, well I now know, from my Enough Excel, what my minimum is", I would not advise using that minimum obviously as a starting point for then negotiating pay or thinking about roles.  But you do have that sense of, "I know that anything below that is just unacceptable".  It will be really stressful for you, it will end up dominating your days. So, having those numbers, having that clarity, not hoping -- if you're someone who's like me and I avoid number stuff sometimes, or I just hope for the best as well like, "It will probably all be fine", I think if you're making quite a big career decision or choice or change, this is not something you want to leave to chance.  You want to approach these decisions and manage this risk with, back to Helen's point about facts versus feelings, this is the one where this is all about the facts. This is not about how you feel about money, and I think actually we have a lot of emotions, don't we, to do with money, and our risk profile to do with money is actually more about probably us and how we grew up and how we view money.  But really try and get to the facts about, "What are my options; what are my parameters?" and then it can give you confidence, because sometimes you might be pleasantly surprised, or it might help you to take stuff off the table where you're like, "Okay, at some point, maybe I would like to work a three-day week but actually just at the moment, that's not going to be an option for me [or] that's not an option until I get more free childcare hours", or whatever it might be.  Just knowing that I think then can just help you go, "What decisions do I have available to me?"

Helen Tupper: The other thing that I think has helped me with where money has been part of the decision-making process for me and has felt a bit scary has been to talk about it with other people.  Because money does often feel a bit scary, you make a lot of assumptions, "I can and can't do this, and this isn't as impossible".  Then you talk to somebody else and they're like, "Well, why don't you just try this; or, have you thought about this?" and then it suddenly unlocks. I think we get locked in really quickly to our thinking about money and moves, and I've had so many examples like when I was thinking about what I wanted to do at Microsoft, and Virgin actually, where both my managers, it was Scott at Microsoft and James at Virgin, they both unlocked my thinking about what was possible with my salary and the role I was doing.  And it then just made me feel a bit more confident about having those conversations because I was like, "Oh, yeah, I hadn't thought about it like that". So, who can you talk to; and start with someone that you trust and it feels a bit easier first, particularly if you're a bit more nervous talking about money, and then go to somebody who can influence the outcome and just have an open conversation with them about your thoughts and ideas on it, and just see whether they've got anything to add to it.  You're not saying, "Can you solve this for me?" or, "What answers have you got?"  I think it's more, "Have you got a perspective on this?" or, "Is there anything that you would add to inform my thinking?"  It's that sort of an open conversation.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think because especially in Britain, I think people are almost a bit sensitive about talking about money.  But to your point, Helen, I think when I've had those conversations before, what people give you are examples, they're like, "I tried this [or] I did this [or] have you thought about that?" and you'll think, "No, I hadn't [or] I just didn't know that was a possibility", so that can just broaden your horizons I think in terms of what might be possible. Then, what to do if that risk becomes a reality?  So, let's imagine you've done all this great stuff and you've made a decision, maybe you've gone to work part time, so then you are earning less money; for most people, that would mean you earning less money, depending on how you do that.  Or, maybe you've moved from the commercial sector to the charity sector.  It would probably mean that your salary might be at a lower level, not necessarily, but the salaries don't tend to be as competitive in the charity sector. 

Then you're in that job and you're thinking, "I didn't calculate this in the right way".  Maybe you haven't got enough money, or it's just been more stressful than you thought it might be, and so you feel like, "This is not going to work for me", or maybe unexpected extra costs have come your way that do mean you need to almost row back on that career decision. I think at that point, and I have done this every time I have made probably a really big career decision, if you can have even a small rainy-day fund, I think it can just give you that bit of breathing space that you need in an emergency.  And I know that that is much easier to say than it is to do, because that means that you've got to save up a bit, but I always use the equivalent of thinking three months' salary.  Now, three months' salary is not really that long, but I always felt like three months was better than no months, and six months was always my ambition.  I was like, "Right, if I could have three months' salary just sitting there", but six months in my dream scenario, it does mean that if something goes dramatically wrong, or I just really need to walk away from something, or something becomes really toxic, I can just do that. There's still going to be a really challenging time, but at least I've bought myself a bit of time to then go back and talk to those connections, maybe get a project, think about what I could do, freelance.  And this might sound like not what you'd expect to hear at Harvard, but I do really remember going to Harvard to do a leadership programme, and they talked about having a "fuck-it" fund!  So I'm like, "Well, if it's good enough for Harvard, it's good enough for all of us!"

Helen Tupper: I love it!  I was just thinking, and this is a very Helen thing, but I think when I've made career decisions, so literally moving from Microsoft to Amazing If, initially I more than halved my salary.  And so, there were lots of things that I had to cut back on in order to make that move.  And we'd put enough money into our business that I had this runway for six to nine months that I knew that, but it was still half my salary.  And there are things that I like spending money on, that are part of my identity!  I love food and I love shopping and I knew that I didn't have the spends to do that, and that is quite a big part of me.  So, I moved to selling things!  I sort of had my circular --

Sarah Ellis: I really remember this; your circular economy!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I had my little circular fashion economy where I'd be like, "Well, okay, I'll sell that bit from my wardrobe and then I'll just reinvest that into a pair of shoes.  Then, I'll sell that handbag and I'll put that into whatever", so I still felt like I hadn't lost something that was quite important to me.  Equally, and I know I'm not PR for Oddbox, I talk about Oddbox all the time, but I love cooking, so I do Oddbox, and that means that I get all my fruit and veg a lot cheaper, so I don't have to compromise. I know we might be talking about big things like your salary and your rent, I get that; but I also think some things that you might spend money on might feel part of your identity, and shopping and cooking is part of mine, so I just got a bit more creative with how I could still do some of those things when I didn't have the same kind of funds available to me.

Sarah Ellis: Do you know what, I really remember that time quite vividly, because you did get very entrepreneurial about your possessions in a way that blew my mind, because you and I have actually quite a different approach to money, I would say, and how we manage those risks.  But just watching you create your own, like buying and selling, the Helen Tupper version of eBay, was incredible!

Helen Tupper: Unfortunately, I still seem to be doing it Sarah, but just with more things now!  As I said, part of my identity, but we'll move on that before I guilt myself into my shopping habits.  So, we've got two more to talk through; I'll talk about one and Sarah will do the last one.  So, the one I want to talk about was the risk of status, and this again is one I can relate to.  So, it's where you feel like a decision that you're making might affect what other people think about you, or it might affect your identity, and it's that sort of risk that makes you not make that move, even though it could be good for you.

Our suggested resolution here is to not think about this as like a job or a position, but to give the move a name that's a bit more meaningful.  So I might say, "This is my international try-out" or, "This is a bit of a pilot for a pivot" or, "This is a real profile-building position".  You're almost retaining some identity in the move that you're making, which is much bigger than a job title.  And, I think then you have a bit of a story that you can feel like you own and that you can sell to other people.  I'll give you an example. When I was at E.ON, I was Head of -- what was I?  I worked in Ignite, I was a Venture Manager for this team called Ignite, and people were always really excited about, "What does that do; and what do you do at Innovation?"  And then I moved to a Marketing Manager for Energy and Aviation Lubricants.  On the surface it was like --

Sarah Ellis: Oh, the glamour!

Helen Tupper: The glamour of working in lubricants!  But for me, I didn't really talk about that job title because I thought it's not really great for my identity.  But what I did talk about was it was a global role.  So I was like, "This is a really big opportunity for me to have an international position", and it was more the meaning behind the move that I attached myself to, rather than the job title or the company.  So, I think give the move a name and make that the story that you tell. If you do make the move, let's say you go to that thing and even though you've given it a name, it still feels like you've lost a little bit of your identity, my top tip here would be, you can still stay connected to those communities where you recognise your old self in.  So for example, I am still very connected to lots of marketing communities, because I love that world, I love the people in them and I still see a bit of myself in them, I don't need to leave all of that behind.  So, it's almost this fear that we make that when we make a move, we have to be somebody completely different and operate in a completely different world.  Actually, if you can stay connected to the communities, then all you actually do is you build a bigger network around your career anyway, but you don't have to lose yourself when you leave a position or a company.

Sarah Ellis: I think for me what's been helpful here, because I really recognise this one as well, particularly when I left big companies to do our own thing, I still almost find that hard when I'm then surrounded back by people who are still in that world that I was in.  I think that's because the risk almost gets heightened for me sometimes by comparison. So you know sometimes if I'm catching up with a couple of people and they are where I was, but they've continued to progress and develop and do whatever they now do, and I made a different decision but I'm still really good friends and got lots of connections in that previous world, I will sometimes miss, like you described, Helen, I'll think, "That used to be me [or] I was more like that at one point". The thing that I find really useful if you are a bit prone to comparison from time to time, and that's not them making me feel bad, that is me comparing myself and for whatever reason going, "What am I now; who am I now?" having basically a bit of an identity crisis, is I always just ask myself, "What am I proud of?"  We talk sometimes about this idea of doing a pride postcard to yourself. 

And if I think about what I'm proud of, what I want to say about myself, it's not, "Sarah is a corporate high flyer"! My partner's mum, she always describes, "They're not like you, Sarah, they're not a businesswoman with a laptop"!  That's how she describes me; I feel like she's really committed to the laptop bit.  Her daughter also runs a very successful business so she's like, "Not like you girls.  You're so successful in business with your laptops"; brilliant!  I was like, "Probably not really how I see myself now", in terms of I'm not that proud of my laptop, which does seem to overheat on quite a regular basis. But I am really proud of the fact that we have created something from scratch, I'm really proud of our partnership together, I'm really proud of the difference we make in people's careers, the fact that we can support such a wide range of people.  So, when you ask yourself that pride question, I think sometimes it can help you to just let go of (a) some of your old identity stuff that might not be serving you any more; (b) any status stuff that's getting in your way; and also, (c) any ego that might creep in from time to time and comparison, all of those things which are actually quite tricky. And then lastly, on relationships.  So, the risk here is you feel like, "If I go and do something different, are people going to forget about me; will I feel irrelevant; will people still want to be friends with me?"  The resolution here is to involve the people that you already know in your decision-making. 

I think both Helen and I have done this a few times when we've been making these decisions, and it's felt quite high risk. Sometimes, you feel like you shouldn't involve other people, because maybe you're talking about doing something different, and I remember being quite almost apologetic or a bit embarrassed about talking about some of these things, because I was thinking, "But these people have really supported me to help me to squiggle to where I am today, and do I look ungrateful?"  I think that was what was going through my head.  I was like, "I don't want to look ungrateful, because they've really invested in me and now I'm saying, "I think I might go and move from marketing to corporate responsibility", but this marketing manager, or this person I've worked for has been here for me and I'm like, "Might just go and do something different, sorry about that!" or, "I'm going to go and work in a whole different industry [or] start up my own thing". But I think what you forget is that if somebody is invested in you, it's you that they are investing in, not your job title or not what you are doing today, and that was really true for me.

  Whoever I spoke to in terms of more informal mentors or peers or previous managers, they weren't invested in me as a content person in Sainsbury's, or as a CR person in Sainsbury's, or whatever job I was doing; it was me and they wanted to see me succeed in my Squiggly Career, they were really interested in supporting me with what that might look like, asking me some really good questions. So I think when we talk about progression, we'll often talk about prototyping your progression and involve, don't solve; don't feel like you have to solve everything for yourself.  Bring the right people into that decision-making process, because actually they can de-risk it for you.  It was definitely people that de-risked the corporate to Amazing If decision for me, and I can literally name them. 

There were three or four conversations I had where people were usually quite direct, to be honest, they were very good; they were very good at being direct, asked some really brilliant questions, and they were the ones who gave me the nudges to actually go, "Yes, this feels risky".  As I described, all of those six risks that we talked about at the start of the podcast were all very present for me at that moment, so it felt very, very high risk and I was really in danger of never quite doing it, never quite making that leap.  And it was this that really made the difference. Then, what to do if the risk does become a reality? 

So, let's imagine now you've made a move and you're like, "A couple of those relationships, people do seem a bit less interested in me, or maybe haven't got time for me now in the way that they did before".  I think there is an important point in terms of accepting the investment and the quality of all of your relationships in your career won't stay static.  So, there will be certain people where at certain moments, you might feel like you're spending a lot of time with them, you're learning a lot from them, and that just might feel less relevant and useful for them and for you for where you are now.  And again, that's definitely been true of me, and sometimes I'm guilty of thinking every relationship should be amazing and I should be up to date with everyone and I should be best friends with everyone all of the time.

But I think like any relationship, it has moments where you're really in it, and some of those people will stay exactly the same because they're so invested in you and your Squiggly Career.  But there will be certain people, actually a couple of people I can think about who really helped me to de-risk that big decision to move across to Amazing If.  They're not people I talk to now frequently.  They're definitely people who I could still get back in touch with, who I might see occasionally at the odd event, or we definitely have some people in common.  But it's not like I then spent loads and loads of time with those people after that moment.  So, I think again just not putting that pressure on ourselves to feel like every relationship, in terms of our career community, has to last forever.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I agree.  I think redefining that relationship so that it feels different and new and still useful to you and to them is also an important thing to do. So, just to recap them of what you'll get in the PodSheet, so we will cover the six risks that you might find relevant to you, and then think about a decision that you might have coming for you and your development, which risk might hold you back from making that decision, and then you can go to the relevant resolution.  And we just hope that will just give you that confidence and control, that is all we're ever really looking to do when we do these podcasts, is give you a bit more confidence and control over decisions you make with your development.  And if you've got questions or feedback for us, you can always get in touch; we're just helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: So, thanks so much for listening and we're back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.