Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:36: Contributors to a toxic situation
00:04:51: The toxic top five
00:07:15: Three areas of help...
00:07:43: ... 1: minimisers
00:13:57: ... 2: energisers
00:21:39: ... 3: protectors
00:29:02: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where every week we take a different topic to do with work, and share some ideas and actions so that we can all navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence, clarity and control. 

Helen Tupper: And all of our episodes are supported with some other resources to help you in your Squiggly Career.  So, we've got PodSheets, they're one-page summaries, and we've also now created our Squiggly Careers In Action weekly email.  So, as well as the links to learn from this episode, you'll also get some insights into Sarah's borrowed brilliance, things that she's been learning about, and also my Helen's how-to's, so I'm going to go through a tool that I think will help you with your career.  The link to sign up for that is in the show notes, or you can go to our website, amazingif.com, and you'll find everything you need.

Sarah Ellis: So, we've got a tough topic this week. 

Helen Tupper: I know, I think I'm taking a deep breath before we do it. 

Sarah Ellis: But it's an important one. 

Helen Tupper: It is, it is, and it's actually listener-requested, so I think we know that this is really very relevant for at least one person who's listening right now.  But when we look at some of the data, we know, I think, this is relevant for one in ten people at work right now. 

Sarah Ellis: So, we're going to talk about how to cope and stay confident in a toxic situation.  And that toxic situation could be anything from a toxic individual, so someone you work with who you feel like actually, this has gone beyond being a bit challenging, but really feels like it's starting to probably dominate your thoughts and your days; could be a manager; but also it could be a peer, could be someone in a different team.  Maybe it's a toxic team, so you feel like the team that you're in really is working against, rather than for you.  And it could be a toxic culture or a company, or even sometimes a community or a network can become toxic.  All of it is bad, there is no upside, there's no silver lining coming unfortunately today.  So, we can't go, "Oh, but the good news is you're going to learn this and this is going to get better". 

I think this is hard.  This is one of those knotty moments in your Squiggly Careers that is difficult.  I think it does happen to everyone.  We could both think of at least a couple of examples of where this has happened to us.  That's why we talk about coping and staying confident, because I think in the short term, that is your job to do, because most of us are not in a position where obviously, if you could just leave straight away, that's probably what a lot of us would choose to do, but usually that's not the option, that's not a decision that's available to us.  It might be what we're hoping to do, and we perhaps want to do that as soon as we can.  But while we're in this interim period of this kind of toxicity around us in some ways, what can you do to make it through?

Helen Tupper: Of the three, I don't know, contributors to feeling like you're in a toxic situation, so individual, team, manager, what have you, without maybe going into the details too much, but what have you --

Sarah Ellis: Exposé!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, exposé, "And here's the reveal!" 

Sarah Ellis: That'd would be a different vibe in the podcast, wouldn't it?

Helen Tupper: We'll do that in our Thursday episode, "Squiggly careers uncovered"!  The situational team, individual, company, which ones do you sort of relate to?

Sarah Ellis: Individuals, definitely.  I don't feel like I've ever been in a company that I would describe as toxic.  I think I've seen some toxic behaviours in companies, but I can think of multiple people in different organisations where sometimes as well, when you look back on it, you are just like, "How did that happen?" or, "How did we make it through that moment, because actually it was really tough?"  And I can probably think of four or five of those examples and at very different stages in my Squiggly Career.  And I think I coped with it differently, actually, depending on how experienced I was, but all of them, I found really, really hard.  And actually, every time it took me a while to just almost recover from that experience.  How about you?

Helen Tupper: I think I've been in a toxic team, but it was a leadership team.  So, it wasn't my direct one, it was people that represented different departments. 

Sarah Ellis: That you were working for?

Helen Tupper: I was in the leadership team.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, you were in, okay. 

Helen Tupper: And actually, I think when that team came together, there was a lot of blame.  So, when Amy Edmondson talks about psychological safety, which is a high-trust team, I think the opposite to a high-trust team is a toxic team.  I think about that team, there was a lot of finger-pointing and blame, you couldn't make a mistake, it was quite patronising, there was just a lot of behavioural things going on in that team that felt, I mean over time, and I think this is why it's so problematic for people being in these, I think you feel smaller.  You contribute less in toxic situations, organisations have less innovation because people are not sharing their ideas because they're fearful of what people will think or what will happen, and to your point, everyone loses.  The individual feels less confident, they don't feel good about their work; the organisation gets less contribution, less ideas, less innovation; and people leave.  That's the thing that happens in these environments. 

Sarah Ellis: Of course. 

Helen Tupper: People are more likely to leave, so this is bad.  I looked at an article, which we'll put in the PodSheet from MIT Sloan, which is like an academic institution in the US, and they analysed the negative comments on Glassdoor, so all when people are like, "One-star company".  They took all the one-stars and they analysed all of the comments there to say what are the, they call it the toxic top five.  So, these things are, I guess, your tick list.  If you're seeing this stuff, it's likely you're experiencing some kind of toxic situation.  So, disrespect, that was in that situation I had; non-inclusion, I would say that; unethical, I'll leave that one, I'm not going to go there; cutthroat, I don't know, they're hard words, aren't they; and abusive.  I think if you are seeing those behaviours in the situation that you are in, that's ticking the toxic box. 

Sarah Ellis: And I don't think this actually necessarily makes you feel better, but you are definitely not alone if that's how you're feeling right now.  So, when we were doing some research in this, so one in ten people are experiencing some sort of toxic culture.  And even worse than that, there's an interesting piece from Harvard Business Review around how toxic behaviours are actually contagious.  So, even though you'd never choose to behave in that way, if that is what's happening around you, sort of zigging when everyone else is zagging is a really hard thing to do.  So, actually, even your own behaviours can end up being a bit more toxic because that's how everything else is getting done around here.  So, without even noticing, that can happen.  Or perhaps people who are not sure how to behave, you look for signals and cues, right, from the people around you.  So, if you are in a lower-trust environment, where it's not okay to make mistakes, and perhaps you're receiving quite a lot of blame, what are you most likely to do?  Probably pass that blame on to other people, I guess.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I'm not really an expert in the Enron situation, but there's probably indicators there, where there were some sort of toxic behaviours where people couldn't speak up and then people started acting that way, and that led to some things that then caused lots of problems for Enron, and ultimately resulted in the company not being here.  But I think it just becomes the longer you're in there, maybe the more you conform to the norm, but toxic is not a norm that any of us want to conform to. 

Sarah Ellis: No.

Helen Tupper: We just need to go through some things that can maybe help us protect us in those situations. 

Sarah Ellis: So, what we're going to do is talk about three different areas that we think can help you, whatever your situation is right now.  We're going to talk about some minimisers, so how do you minimise the impact that this toxic situation is having on you; some energisers, which might sound slightly counterintuitive in this context, but we think there are some things just to keep you going; and we're going to talk about some protectors, because I think it is actually really important to protect yourself when you're in these moments. 

So, minimisers, three of these to think about.  One, pockets of light relief.  I think you do need some light relief in these toxic situations.  And can you build these into your day, so you have these small moments to look forward to, or just where you can sometimes forget, you know, I think just feel disconnected from something that is feeling really hard.  So, I was thinking back to one example I could remember, and I listened to a lot of podcasts at that time that were nothing to do with work.  I listen to a lot of comedy podcasts anyway, but I think I went really hard on the comedy podcast.  It could be things like, "Actually, do you know what, I'm going to take my lunch break properly, and I'm going to go and do some exercise, or I'm going to go for a walk, or I'm going to go and do a class", or even things like coffee chats with those friends that always make you feel better.  So, I think this is where you might go, "Not any friend", you need the light-relief friends.  And I do think there are some people that I know where I'm, like, I just know I feel better because I've spent time with them, maybe even when you're not going to have work chats.  Sometimes, there are moments where definitely you do want to talk about what's happening.  But sometimes, you're like, "I don't want to talk about it more, I almost don't want to give it more headspace or airspace".  So, maybe someone whose job is really different to yours, or where you just don't normally chat about work. 

Helen Tupper: I was trying to think, I think in the situation that I was in, I think my minimising it was in some meetings, I kind of thought, "You know what, it's okay to be passive".  So, because I think I'd been trying to respond to it and thinking, "I don't think this is right, I think we should do it differently", and I'd been putting so much energy into fighting what I was experiencing and it was exhausting, and so I think actually, to retain my energy, to minimise the effect it was having on me, in some meetings I think I was just like, "Just let them lead, let them lead", not in every situation, because I think I would have found that really disempowering, but there were other ones that I was like, "Take the lead here, you're going to make a difference there".  But in this situation, "Probably not going to win this battle in this moment, and so don't try to fight it all the time". 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's okay.

Helen Tupper: And then, I found that was useful, but I don't think that's a sustainable approach, because obviously something is going on that's not right, which we'll come on to, but just to minimise the impact on your energy level and think on your emotions, I find that useful.

Sarah Ellis: So, that's really well connected to the second thought that we had, which is, "Is there anything you can opt out of?" like feeling okay to think, "Do I need to be in that meeting?  Do I need to be involved in that project?"  I actually think, to your description there, like, "What can I let go of?"  Because if everything is draining and exhausting, the more you do, the more that all adds up to more-ness.  And I actually think here, we're trying to reduce or subtract.  So, I was thinking about a couple actually of particularly toxic people that I worked with, where I would dread spending time with them, and I felt like their behaviours were really bad and I probably wasn't in a position sometimes to call them out on that, and they seemed to sort of get away with it.  That's honestly how it felt.  And I do remember thinking, like your point, I remember going, "Do you know what, I probably don't need to get involved in that.  I probably, in an ideal world, would, and maybe I am interested in it and care about it, but for now, I'm just going to let it go".

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I think the 'for now' thing is really important, because I think if you do it for too long, you feel like a failure, that then they have won.

Sarah Ellis: Yes. 

Helen Tupper: And unfortunately, sometimes these people, I think, do win, but I don't think you have to feel like the failure.  So, this isn't giving up on what's important to you, I think it's just recognising that you need some energy to do some of the other things that we're going to talk about.

Sarah Ellis: The win-loss thing is really interesting, isn't it?  Because you said it a few times, and I think that's often what feels hard is because, especially if you're listening to this podcast, I bet you hold yourself to account to thinking, "Well, I want to make things better, and this isn't right, we don't want a toxic situation", and I think sometimes that can make it even harder to let go.  But I think you've maybe got to kind of forget this win-loss thing and maybe actually be a bit more selfish, and just think about, "Well, what's right for me for now?" and when we come on to protectors, we will talk about what might you do around calling it out in the right way. 

Then, the last minimiser, and I found this actually particularly useful probably more recently, so those first two is definitely what I did earlier on in my career, and then this third one, which is remind yourself, and maybe this is a bit about being more selfish, what's in it for you?  So, in this toxic situation, there's loads of stuff here that isn't in it for you, but is there anything that is going to be a good upside for you when you get out of the other side of it?  So, this could be skills you're building, experience you're gaining.  You know when people don't see the toxic side of the story, that you will probably tell later, what they are actually just going to see is, well, what was the job that you were in?  What was the role you were developing in?  How were you growing?  What were the talents and strengths you were growing?  And I remember thinking, "Well, these things will still be true.  I do think this is a toxic situation or a toxic person, but not everyone will always need to know that.  And I still will be able to talk about the fact that I have..." 

Now, I wasn't going to last that long with that, but those things were still for me, that is experience-building, you know, almost like, what's going to be in your CV?  What are you going to be able to say is true that isn't true today?  What's going to be in your LinkedIn profile?  And you don't have to share some of those harder things or you might choose not to, but I did actually find that helpful as just a sort of a bit of a, "Keep going, because some of this is going to be worth it". 

Helen Tupper: Yeah I think I had in mind, there was one relationship that was actually weirdly better because of it.  Because we were both experiencing it and we both seemed to have the perspective of, "This isn't right", we were able to talk about it.  And actually, that relationship was better, I'm still connected to that person, and that has been lovely.  And I could see that in the moment and it was just sort of, "What's in it for me?" was, well at least we're --

Sarah Ellis: In it together.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, a little bit, and we're spending more time together.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's true actually.

Helen Tupper: And, would I have wanted that to have that outcome?  Probably not, but did it really help in the moment?  It was definitely useful. 

Sarah Ellis: So, as somebody who loves energy, and who I think, I always find it hard to imagine you in these toxic situations because I'm like, well, you are so energetic and motivated by not only doing the right thing, but doing the right thing with energy, what things can help us to keep that motivation where it just feels really hard, you know, all of those words, even that word, 'exhausting', 'draining', 'depleting' is sort of the opposite of energy?

Helen Tupper: Well, I think the quieter and less I contribute and the longer that is, the more the sign that there's an issue going on.  So, a couple of things that are useful.  I think the first thing is, connect with a community that is not part of that day-to-day situation.  So, for example, I actually remember in that situation, there were some other people in that organisation who we were passionate about some similar things, and I would spend time with them.  So, I think often we think, "Oh, just go do something outside of work", and you can do that, but a toxic team doesn't always mean a toxic company.  And so, I don't think you have to just go, "It's the end for me in this business".  It might just be that particular dynamic that's going or that individual.  And so, there could still be people inside your organisation that you can connect with, and this might be, like, an employee resource group, or I've set up loads of internal communities in the past, ones on side projects, and loads of different ones. 

You don't have to join one that's existing.  You can create your own, but the idea is spend time with people who are outside of the situation, who you get energy from because they like the things that you do, they're curious about the things that you are, they want to achieve similar things.  And because it's something that you like doing and people that you enjoy spending time with, it will just be a bit of a boost.  Those are not the draining conversations.  They're the ones that remind you of who you are and what you love and all those kind of things.  And I think that also links to an idea here about sharing your strengths.  So, I think sometimes in these toxic situations, after a while if they're going on for a long time, I think you can start to doubt yourself.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, definitely.

Helen Tupper: I've had this, "Oh, maybe I'm doing this wrong, maybe I'm not that good".  Like, in that leadership team, "Maybe I'm not ready for this.  Maybe this is my inexperience that's resulting in this situation".  And I think the longer you're in it, the more the confidence gremlins actually start to really, really grow.  And so, going with the energisers, thinking, "What am I good at?  And how can I use that strength to help somebody else?" that's something that you are in control of, it's something that gives you confidence, and I think control and confidence are often the things that are lacking in a toxic situation.  So, starting with your strengths and using that as a way to get it back is something that can be really beneficial.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I think one of the things that we see when we get people who listen to our podcast coming together for things like PodPlus and Squiggly Career In Conversation, some of them are definitely going through a hard time, you know, they've shared it with that group before.  But that moment, that community is them getting some energy.  They're like, "Well, this is the boost of energy that I needed in my week", because what everybody there has in common is I think everyone just loves to learn and they're all really curious.  And so, if you can't find it in your company, I think this is perhaps a little bit easier in big companies.  I was just thinking about both of us have been in really big companies where there tends to be quite a lot of opportunity, but I've also been in a smaller company where that wouldn't have been true and that's where external things can be really helpful. 

So, networks connected to your industry, but maybe to a cause that you're passionate about, whether it's, I don't know, social mobility or gender equality, and getting involved in some of those things, again, you sort of find your tribe, and I think it's reassuring.  You're like, "Okay, I'm not loving the day at the moment", but it reminds you that there is another way and a way that's much better suited to you, and that is possible, even if you're not there right now.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and hobbies, that's another energiser.  So, you can do things outside of work that you love and that might be, I don't know, exercise, cooking, writing.  You know, I think sometimes we don't talk about hobbies that much.  I feel like hobbies have gone out of fashion, but actually this is the exact moment that a hobby can be really, really helpful because it is, yeah, I think it's kind of a form of active rest as well, which active rest is something that contributes to your resilience.  Toxicity is going to take quite a lot of your energy away.  So, these things that are your hobbies are things that you enjoy and provide you energy and act as a bit of a distraction from everything else that's going on in your head.

Sarah Ellis: I also wonder whether hobbies is a bit of a cultural thing.  So, some of the countries we work with, they definitely take hobbies more seriously.  Like, I see in some of the Nordic countries, they will finish work earlier and it's sort of a non-negotiable, not loads earlier than in the UK, but they go, "But that's because we've got our hobbies in the evening".  And everyone's quite committed to whether it's like, I don't know, they all go down to the tennis club, but their kids go as well.  So, they often kind of combine family and hobbies.  And some workplaces actually have hobbies set up.  

I went to one company where they were all playing board games and you could invite other people.  So, there were other people turning up who were their friends, and they were clearly basically just using the space to all play board games. 

Helen Tupper: I like the idea of a hobby day.  I feel like because we don't really talk about them that much, that people have probably got little hobbies that other people just don't know about, like the train enthusiasts, or what would you say your hobby was? 

Sarah Ellis: I suppose I play tennis, that's like a hobby.  I think exercise counts as hobbies to me, but I think there's exercise that I do because I think I should do it, don't like that exercise that much.  I don't think of that as -- because hobbies, I feel like I choose, they're things that I enjoy.  So, I enjoy playing tennis, I do not enjoy going for a run.  So, I divide exercise into the hobbies, which are the good ones, and then the ones that I do because I'm like, "Just to keep fit". 

Helen Tupper: Enforced activity is not a hobby! 

Sarah Ellis: But then, I was just trying to think, do I think reading is a hobby?  Probably. 

Helen Tupper: I think that you can imagine a little hobby group of little readers. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah and I think I -- oh, yeah, I don't need to do it with other people though.  You went straight to other people; I'm like, "I don't want other people"! 

Helen Tupper: I don't mean do it with other people, I meant just like talk to other people about books. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I've got one friend who reads, we sometimes WhatsApp each other about that.  But that's probably my most consistent hobby because I read every day.  And also, if I think back to being in this toxic situation, hobbies are a bit of an escape, and I think escaping is good here.  You're escaping to another world.  I think you also get into comfort, viewing, watching, listening.  When you're in a really tough situation, I think don't be afraid to fall back on, what is that programme that always makes you feel better?  Watch Schitt's Creek, basically, is the answer to most things when things are bad.  Or read the book that you fell in love with and you love re-reading.  It's probably not the moments where we have loads of capacity for newness.  Reading that left-field thing that's been on your list for a while, or that controversial documentary, you might just be like, "No, I want David Attenborough nature documentary.  That's going to make me feel good about the world".

Helen Tupper: I do think it's important though, you know, just because we're saying escapism and I said at the start, sometimes you might want to opt out so you can retain your energy, I do think there is at some point, and that we'll probably go on to now in terms of protecting, I don't think you have to just accept this completely.  I think you need to retain your energy, do things that help you with what you're going through; but I also think there is a point at which you have to go, "I'm not going to be a complete passenger in this situation, I'm going to do some things that make sure that other people are aware of it too.  Because if you feel like this is just happening to you and you've got no influence over it, I think that can feel very disempowering.  So, we want to protect your energy, we want to make sure that you feel like you can keep going in what's a tough situation.  But I think there are some things that you can do so that you don't feel like this is just being done to you and you have no autonomy.

Sarah Ellis: I think you are looking after yourself in the now and in the future, which I think is where this final area comes in, so protectors.  So, this is about protecting yourself in the moment and also protecting your future self.  So, in terms of in the now, it can be useful, depending on your toxic situation, to start writing things down.  And I know that it does feel a bit bleak. 

Helen Tupper: It's the moment it tips, isn't it, when you're like, "I'm now having to document this". 

Sarah Ellis: To document this.  But if I think about some examples and conversations I've had, actually documenting things is really helpful.  It's something to keep coming back to, it's a record of what's happening.  Also, just remember, your memories are usually quite inaccurate and it's easy to forget things.  And so, you might need to write things down in the moment.  So, just think about for you, is it worth starting to write anything down?  I have done that once, but most of the time not.  And actually, I think it would have been helpful to have written things down a few times.

Helen Tupper: Well, I've done it before, and I've shown it to somebody outside of the situation and said, "Oh, look at this", and they have actually challenged me and gone, "What's going on, because that's not as bad as you think it is". 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's interesting.

Helen Tupper: So, I think this doesn't always mean you're documenting it in order to send it to HR.  Sometimes, I think it just helps you to be a bit more objective, because if you're finding a situation uncomfortable, there's facts, what was done and what was said, and there's feelings, how you're reacting to it.  And I think sometimes, when you've just got it written down, you can show it to someone else and say, "Sarah, what's your perspective on this email, because for me, I'm finding it uncomfortable?"  You might be like --

Sarah Ellis: "It sounds fine"!

Helen Tupper: -- "This is quite direct, Helen".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, but because I can't see all of what's not being said.  So, it doesn't mean that it's not valid, it's just sometimes the facts versus feelings is helpful.  And the second part of this, which we were kind of going back and forth on, and I think this is very much something you have to judge for yourself, is do you have the conversation?  Do you give the feedback?  So, do you want to call out what's happening or not?  And I think this will be very personal.  So, I think we were both reflecting on, we have both done it.  We have had conversations, either with the individual involved or maybe someone connected to the individual involved to say, "We don't think this is right.  This is what I've observed with these kind of behaviours, this is the impact I think it's having.  And I think we should either do something differently or do something about that".  The reason we went back and forth on it was we both said, "We've both done that and both times, didn't make any difference"! 

Helen Tupper: Nothing changed! 

Sarah Ellis: Nothing changed!  And so, you do go, "Well, is it worth it?"  And the reason I think it is sometimes worth it, not always, is for your future self, because we also both reflected on that and felt proud of ourselves and happy that we did it, because we still showed up with integrity and authenticity.  We did it in our own way, in our own style.  Did it change anything?  No.  Earlier in my career, did I say nothing actually about probably the one individual that was the most toxic, where I think you're getting properly into unethical, perhaps even illegal behaviours, and I said nothing?

Helen Tupper: And how do you feel now?

Sarah Ellis: Bad about it, but sympathetic to my younger self, because I was young.  But me and another girl were in this situation, and I'm still friends with her now, back to your thing of it does make you closer.  And I think I was badly treated, I think it was worse for her.  But you know, like the whole positions of power, neither of us did anything.  I think what we both did was just left, which I think is often what you ultimately do, you need to get away from that person.  So, again, I don't actually look back on it and give myself a hard time, but I would hope that people always have someone they could go and talk to about it.  But I think it's almost a decision.  I think if you feel like you've made a choice about it, you will always feel better.  So, I think you can make a choice to not say anything, and especially if you feel like it's quite pervasive, this is not just an individual or a team, this is a company, you might just go --

Helen Tupper: "I'm just not -- this is not where I want to be". 

Sarah Ellis: No.  Whereas, I think the time I did have a conversation, it was more about an individual.  I actually think I thought I could maybe change something.  I mean, I couldn't, but at least I tried.  And do you know what, I tried a few times, I tried a few different ways, a few different angles, still nothing changing.  And then ultimately, I did get to that decision of like, "Well, if I believe in this, I think I have got to leave", which can feel really hard to face because you're like, "Well, I feel like I'm having to take the hit here", even though I'm not the person who I felt was being toxic, but ultimately it was the right thing for you.  Again, I think you have to let go of this win-lose thing.  So, I think that's the first protector: record things.

Helen Tupper: Just one more on the having a conversation.  If you can, if you feel like you want to, just having that conversation, even if it doesn't change the outcome, I think, as well as the future-self thing, so I now feel better because of that conversation that I had, I also if I was in that situation again, I feel more confident about having that conversation.  I'm like, even if I go into it and go, "Well, this might not change it, based on past experience, it might not change anything", but I know I will feel better because of this conversation.  So, it gives me the confidence to do it, because we probably are going to have some toxic situation in the future with an individual or an organisation, it probably is going to happen again.  And I think knowing that that isn't the end, and it doesn't have to determine what happens to you in your development, that you have an element of control, I think that conversation is an element of control that you have. 

Sarah Ellis: So, the first one was about recording and documenting.  The second one is a choice, I think, about what you want to say, how you want to share, and I think that choice can be nothing, it can be a conversation, it can be more significant than that.  And then, the third idea we had was about getting an influential mentor who is outside of your company.  And we both said we found this really helpful, partly because I think they're outside, they can give you a different perspective.  I think they can also motivate you and remind you that you're good at what you do.  And they can give you some of the pushers to be like, "Well, don't put up with this for too long.  Are you looking at other roles?  Are you looking at other companies?"  Because I think there is ultimately a point here where you go, you might set a time on something, because sometimes things do change.  If it is one individual, if it is your manager, they might leave, they might do something different.  But what's going to be that tipping point where you start to be really proactive about, "Okay, where else?  Where else can I go and work?  Let's start applying for jobs, let's start having curious career conversations". 

I think these influential mentors can open up opportunities, so they can spot opportunities on your behalf; yes, they can give you perspective; also, sometimes they give you a bit of power.  I think sometimes the connections I've had with some of those people help me to stay confident of thinking, "Well, if I do need to leave, I still feel like I've got a good reputation with people who I respect and I admire".

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  And I think sometimes you want that supporter don't you, want that friend, like I want a chat with you where you go, "That sounds really hard".  But then someone you need, "And here's what you need to do to help this out".  You kind of need that different input, I think sometimes, in these situations.  So, if this is you right now, like we know this is a hard time, and I think know that you are not alone in that moment, but these three particular actions will give you a little bit of control and give you, I think, something just to focus on.  So, the first one of minimising; the second one of focusing on the things that energise you; and the third one of making sure you take some of those protecting actions for yourself now and for the future version of you at work too. 

Sarah Ellis: So, we hope you're okay and we hope this has been useful.  If you've got any feedback or questions or other topics that you'd like us to talk about, you can always email us.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  But that's everything for today.  Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now. 

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.