Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:44: Introducing Katy Milkman

00:03:53: Tips for getting started

00:05:36: Using a commitment device

00:09:10: Temptation bundling

00:10:54: The intention-action gap

00:13:07: Katy's career advice

00:14:48: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah and this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  This episode is part of our Videobook Club series that we're running during January, and this is my expert interview with Katy Milkman who's going to be talking all about change. 

You are in for a real treat.  I really enjoyed my conversation with Katy.  She's smart, insightful, she's got really good ideas for action. It's really practical, I really enjoyed both watching the videobook, reading her book and talking to her.  I am confident that this is definitely going to be a good one for our Squiggly Careers community.  So, enjoy listening and I'll be back with you at the end to let you know what's next.  Bye for now. So, Katy, welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.  I'm really looking forward to talking about how to change.

Katy Milkman: Thank you for having me.

Sarah Ellis: So, we're going to dive straight in, and one of the things that struck me very early on watching the videobook and reading the book, because I've done both, was this idea of the 'fresh start effect', because I have to say, I think my initial view was maybe a bit cynical that actually, "Oh, do you know what?  New Year isn't a good time to set resolutions", probably based on my own personal experience.  Maybe you set them and then you fail and you feel a bit disappointed in yourself.  But the more I have read your work, I think I might be starting to change my mind, maybe a bit more nuanced than I was before.  What does this fresh start effect mean; and then, how might we apply that in terms of moments where we do want to make a change?

Katy Milkman: Yeah, well, the fresh start effect is this phenomenon where there are moments in our lives, moments that feel like new beginnings, when we are more open to making a change, we feel like the time is right for a variety of reasons.  One of the key reasons from our research seems to be that people at these new beginning moments, like 1 January, like Mondays, like birthdays, we can say, "Okay, last year or last week or when I was 23, now I'm turning 24", and say to ourselves, "That was the old me that didn't get in shape, or that wasn't really firing on all cylinders at work", or whatever it was, that goal that has been in our mind for a while and we haven't nailed it, we can set aside and say, "That was the old me, and the new me is going to be different".  That new beginning gives you a chance to think you have a clean slate and give yourself renewed optimism, and feel a disconnect between what wasn't working before and what could be a possible future.

So, it's sort of like a piece of a psychological immune system, if you will, that gives us a do-over or a chance for renewal.  That means that what we see in data set after data set is at moments that align with fresh start dates, there's upticks in goal pursuit.  Now, you began with the cynical take, and you said, "Maybe I should set that aside, but it seems silly".  I just want to actually say, I agree.  It is kind of silly, it's a strange thing we do in our minds, it's not rational.  1 January is not special relative to 31 December, except for the fact that we follow a calendar that happens to demarcate time in this peculiar way.  And yet, it turns out to have meaning for a lot of people and be a useful tool for a lot of people.  If it gives you that sense of, "Okay, I have a clean slate, I can do it now", and it gets you over the hump to begin trying, great, whatever it takes, because we don't achieve success if we don't try.

Sarah Ellis: And actually, what's so interesting, and you point this out, is so much of how our brain is wired works against trying to change.  But in some ways, what you've just described, you're like, "Oh, well, that's actually an upside".  

Even if it's a psychological thing, it doesn't matter whether 1 January, like you say, is probably the same as the day before, but actually that's a good example of where the way that we think works for us, because our brains love habits and we love patterns and we like doing the same thing that we did before.  So, if somebody is listening now, and actually probably a lot of people will be listening in January, when people are at the very start of that moment, so they've got the fresh start effect, they're probably in the right time of year, what would you recommend to people as the first thing they do to sort of start to set them up for success, so that I feel like if you start well, it maybe creates momentum?

Katy Milkman: That's right.  It does create momentum, and particularly if we put in a burst of energy when we are most motivated, it can help build habits, because habits come from repetition and reward.  And so, if you try to repeat the behaviour that you're trying to put on autopilot more often, just like practising the piano makes you a better pianist, practising a habit makes it feel more automatic as well.  So, what we too rarely do is actually think in advance, "What are the obstacles that could trip me up?  If this goal that I'm trying to pursue were to fail, what would be the most likely reasons for that?"  There may be things that are outside of your ability to control, but a lot of them may be internal barriers that may be obstacles to change you could plan better to overcome. So, one of them is just getting started, finding the moment to begin. 

That's what we're talking about here.  The fresh start effect actually knocks that obstacle out of the way for many of us.  But there are others too, like finding it really unpleasant to pursue your goal.  If you hate goal-pursuit in the moment, that can be a reason you won't persist.  Or it might be that you don't really feel confident that you have what it takes.  If you don't believe in yourself, it's really hard to keep making progress towards a difficult goal.  Or maybe you don't have the social support you need.  And maybe you don't have the right system for making sure you don't forget, or that you haven't built the right habits.  And so, once you learn what's standing in your way, actually there's a whole lot of scientific insights that can be very helpful.

Sarah Ellis: One of the things that you talked about, which I suspect is relatively universal, is this letting go sometimes of present bias versus basically delayed gratification.  And actually, one example that sprung to mind, it's a bit different maybe to some of the other changes that we might normally talk about, is obviously I hear a lot of people talk to us at the moment about wanting to change their relationship with AI, almost not being scared of it, embracing it, using it in the work that they do.  

But because it's technology, we sort of expect in the present, as soon as we start using it, it will just solve everything, like our work is suddenly twice as fast, and we're so much more efficient.  Because that's a really good example of something I want to change.  I want to change how much I use AI in the work that I do.  But I think if I have a present bias, I think I might give up.  I think I have given up already a couple of times because I've been like, "Oh, but it's not solved everything really quickly".  When people recognise that present bias, which we all have, who doesn't like stuff working really quickly, what helps us to get on board with delayed gratification, given we've got to wait it out, essentially?

Katy Milkman: Present bias, just to define this, I know lots of people have watched the videobook or read the book, but for anybody who needs a refresher, is the tendency to dramatically overweight instant gratification, whatever is in the here and now, the experience I'm having in this present moment, over the long-term delayed rewards.  And so, what that means is, "Yeah, I want to run a marathon, but that means I have to get off the couch right now, stop watching Netflix and run the 5K today".  And we can see the same kind of problem arising with AI.  Certainly, if you're thinking, "I would like to be extremely skilled at using AI to, say, edit the memos I'm sending.  But right now, I'd rather just shoot this memo off", you can imagine that kind of tension.  And the next time you think like, "Do I really want to get feedback on this memo from AI?"  Yeah, it might make it better, but it's going to slow me down.  And maybe you haven't figured out how to do this efficiently to use it in the crafting process. 

So, you keep kicking the can and say, "Well, next time, I'll figure out how to use it". There are a couple of solutions for when present bias gets in our way.  When we are present-biased, it can lead us to procrastinate.  So, procrastination is the flipside of present bias.  One of the best solutions for present bias is actually a very heavy-handed solution called 'a commitment device'.  A commitment device is a tool that literally constrains us.  It either changes our incentives or creates bans or restrictions.  We're very used to other people doing this to us, right?  You're used to having a boss who says, "You have to use AI at least once before you submit any prototype", or the state saying, "You have to follow the speed limit or else you'll get a ticket".  And the commitment device is a bizarre tool where we use the same insight to constrain ourselves. You could imagine creating a fine that you impose on yourself.  Like, "Once a day I need to try to figure out a way to use, say, ChatGPT to enhance my work, and if I don't, if I don't log in and use it for at least one use case per month, I'm going to fine myself.  I'm going to put $50 on the line per week that I will have to send to a charitable organisation I hate, say one on the opposite end of the political spectrum for me.  You need to have someone who's going to hold you accountable for that, some sort of referee, maybe GPT actually has users to just --

Sarah Ellis: Does it for you, yeah!

Katy Milkman: -- that you could, yeah, that you could like snapshot and report on; maybe it's somebody you work with who could agree to hold you accountable.  You send them an email every day when you use GPT.

Sarah Ellis: You also talk about the importance of fun and gamification.  So, what advice would you give to people if people are trying to work out for themselves, "I've got a change I want to make, how do I make it fun, or how do I gamify something that often doesn't feel that fun, you know, doing more exercise, eating less chocolate, drinking less, whatever it might be?"

Katy Milkman: One of my favourite areas of research that I've been involved in the last 20 years is research on a specific tactic for this that I call 'temptation bundling', which is when you only allow yourself to enjoy some temptation, say, you can only binge-watch your favourite show on whatever your preferred vendor is, you can only binge-watch that show, you know, Bridgerton, while you are pursuing your goal, like exercising.  Now, this is not going to work for ChatGPT, or for LLMs in general, right?  You're not going to be able to only allow yourself to binge-watch Bridgerton while using LLM; those things conflict!  So, it needs to be a complimentary activity, right?  So, you can see it with the gym, "If I work out, I'm only allowed to, say, binge-watch my favourite show while I'm working out". 

Now I'm going to crave trips to the gym to find out what happens to my favourite characters.  Time's going to fly while I'm there. It might be that you make it social.  So, maybe you have a friend at work who has the same goal and you check in on each other, and maybe even try to figure out how to use the tools together.  That could be one way to make something more fun.  When we coach other people, when we mentor other people, it actually helps us improve our own performance on the very dimension we're coaching them on.  When we say to someone else, "You should do this thing", there's something called the 'saying is believing' effect.  Once you say it to someone else, you believe it more, and you're going to feel like a hypocrite if you don't follow your own advice.

Sarah Ellis: We've all got these intentions, but often there is a gap between intention and action.  And I liked some of the ideas that you talk about around not just having reminders, but making sure that those reminders for the change you want to make are both timely and, ideally, unusual.  And actually, it's the unusual bit that kind of really stuck with me, and the alien example, which for people who have watched the videobook, you will have seen a little alien.  Oh, you've got him!

Katy Milkman: He sits with me to remind me of that project.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  What you were describing is the unusual helps us to notice, it captures our attention.  And in a world where we are easily distracted and there is a lot going on, you've got to do something that creates cut-through.  People listening now, they've got their change in mind, they've understood the fresh start effects, they're going to think about how to keep that commitment and temptation bundling, and maybe how to do it with other people.  What's this final piece here, which is around that reminder that we all need, because we are forgetful, so we don't want to rely on our brains?

Katy Milkman: We need reminders to be jarring and we need them to be timely, right?  If CVS texts me to come and pick up my prescription at the pharmacy, but I'm at work and I'm not going to be walking home for several hours, actually that reminder doesn't help me much, because by the time I'm walking home, I've already forgotten it.  So, we need to be thoughtful about when we're supporting others and ourselves.  How do we make sure that we can convert our intentions to actions by ensuring that we have really detailed action plans with reminders and cues that will capture our attention in the moment we need to take action? 

So, this is sort of, if you need to pick something up on the way home from work and you live by your calendar, then you'd better have the calendar reminder at, you know, exactly 5.00pm telling you to do that thing.  Don't just assume you'll remember. There may be people in your life who can also be supportive of this. 

We need to break down our intentions into bite-sized pieces and think about, "When will I do it, where will I do it, how will I get it done?  Think about that level of planning detail and recognise you need it, or else you won't follow through.  But it needs to be sort of placed in calendar.  You know, if you want to work out, that needs to be on your calendar; if you want to get a flu shot, that needs to be on your calendar; if you want to vote, that needs to be in your calendar.  Don't assume that you will just figure out a way to get it done because it's important to you.

Sarah Ellis: We ask all of our experts who we invite on the podcast the same question, just to finish our conversation, which is, what's the best piece of career advice that either you've had, or that you would just like to pass on to our listeners that you think people will find really helpful?

Katy Milkman: The advice I was given was not to be strategic about choosing my projects to come up with some optimal portfolio, but actually to pursue projects I loved, pursue research projects that I woke up in the morning intrinsically motivated to pursue.  If you are doing a thing that you enjoy doing, you will persist longer.  And ultimately, in my line of work and in so many, it's about seeing your projects through to the finish line and doing them to the best of your ability, that many people fail on. 

And if you're choosing things that you love, you will succeed because you will push them because you're intrinsically motivated.  And each day, we wake up wanting to do it, and that will lead to the best overall outcomes. It's not that we shouldn't ever be strategic in taking on projects or doing work that's good for our career, that certainly has its place, but I think it's a really refreshing and, for me, has been very valuable, is that if you're not passionate about the work you're doing, you're not going to give it your all and you're not going to have the great outcomes that lead to advancement.  So, you can be strategic all day, but if you're strategically doing things that you hate, you will not succeed.  Do what you love when you have the opportunity and good results will follow.

Sarah Ellis: Katy, thank you so much for talking to me.  It really made me reflect on my own changes.  I'm definitely going to go away and take some of the actions that I've reflected on from reading your book and watching you in action too.  So, thank you so much.

Katy Milkman: Thanks for having me and, yeah, wishing you a lovely holiday season and to everyone watching, Happy New Year and wishing you lots of success with your goals in 2025.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you for listening to the podcast today with Katy.  I hope you enjoyed it and found it as useful as I did.  It's really worth spending some time with Katy's work, so if you haven't had time to watch one of the videobooks yet, Katy's is a really good one to start with.  I think it's easy to make the transition from the research that she's done, to how we might apply that in the work that we do, and how we all work together. 

And I think we're all trying to change in some way, whether that's a personal change that you want to make, whether that's small changes you're making to ways of working, or whether that's big changes that your organisation are making.  I think it's such a relevant topic for all of us.  So, I hope you enjoyed listening and see you again soon.  Bye for now.