Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:59: Show structure

00:01:51: Reason for the topic

00:03:40: Significant statements

00:09:15: Surprising topics

00:12:13: Take-away actions

00:16:25: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And you're listening to the Squiggly Careers Videobook Club!  It's a new series, Sarah, it's a new thing for the new year.  Are you excited?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: She is excited and this is going to be very useful for your learning, everyone.  This is week one of the Squiggly Careers Videobook Club.  Thank you for joining us.  Hopefully, you're all signed up, so you've got all of your login to LIT Videobooks and you've got everything that you need to learn along with us this month.  This week, our focus is on change, and the videobook that we are going to be diving into and discussing is How to Change by Katy Milkman.  So today, you've got a conversation where Sarah and I are going to share our reflections from what we learned from the videobook and then tomorrow, so that you know what's coming, Sarah has a conversation with Katy to get her perspective directly.  So, you've got a sort of two-part podcast, short conversation today between me and Sarah with our learnings, and then a discussion with Sarah and Katy tomorrow.

Sarah Ellis: And so, the structure for our conversations together, we're going to start with why we chose the topic, why we thought it was relevant in the context of Squiggly Careers; we'll then share, from watching the videos, a statement that stuck out to us; then, something that surprised us, so maybe just something we didn't know before, or maybe something that was counter to our existing opinions; and then, an action that we are personally going to take having watched the videobook, because I think that's always what we're trying to do when we're learning, is you don't just want to learn in a vacuum, you always want to be thinking, "Well, how could this learning help me; how can I be better because I've spent time watching this videobook?" and that's where it starts to feel really relevant for you, for your roles, for your career. 

So, we've tried to do that as well, and hopefully that'll give you a bit of inspiration to get started too. So, change in a Squiggly Career, probably the easiest one to connect the dots between Squiggly Careers and change, because we will always say that our careers today are characterised by that change and uncertainty, the potential and possibilities.  And I was thinking, there's change that happens to us, so there is often quite a lot of change that we experience at work that is out of our control, we might not know it's going to happen, so we don't expect it or we're surprised by it; and then, there is change that you choose.  And I think changes that you choose can be really small or they can be really significant, and it's the second type of change that we're really focusing on today and that the videobook really focuses on.  So, whether you want to make a small change, like redesigning how you maybe get your work done, or just getting a bit better at setting boundaries in a week, or whether you're like, "No, I've got a really big change in mind", we're talking career change, we're talking, "I am going to exercise so much more this year than I've ever done before", or maybe you've got, this is the year you're doing a marathon. I saw someone we're connected with, actually Daisy Buchanan, who's been on the podcast before, is doing the London Marathon. 

So, you know when you're like, "Wow, she's got a significant -- I don't think she's done a marathon before", so that's a significant change that you're like, "Well, I've not done something and I'm going to do something".  I often think with change, it's a from and a to, I always think of froms and tos.  And so, I think we're all making changes all the time, we're all choosing these changes that we want to make and I think it's always fair to say that some of them are more successful than others, like some work and some don't, and I think watching this videobook helps you to figure out what to do to give yourself a better chance of succeeding with any kind of change that you choose.  So, Helen, what was the statement that stuck out for you?

Helen Tupper: And by the way, Sarah and I have not shared our answers.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, no.

Helen Tupper: So, there is a danger that it's the same statement, the same surprising thing.  And also, if you hear me flicking, it's because I made lots of notes.  I always think that's a sign of a good watch, is where you've made loads of notes.  So, the statement that stuck for me was, "Efficiency is laziness".  Did that work?  That's not yours?

Sarah Ellis: No.  I do remember that from the videobook and actually, I did talk to Katy a bit about that, so I think it's a good one to pick out.

Helen Tupper: So, my takeaway from that statement was, if you want change to happen, actually we can kind of play into our kind of human laziness.  So, you make it basically really, really easy to do something.  She talks about designing defaults into your work.  So, for example, let's say you think, "Oh, do you know what?  I want to start my day with learning", that's your thing, you're like, "I want to start my day with learning.  That's something that I want to do this year.  And so, I'm going to put ten minutes of learning in my diary at the start of every day". 

Now, I would say that's only 50% of how you will make that happen.  So, it's good that you've put that into your diary.  That does make it a bit easier if you've designed it into your day, it has become a bit of a default. But you haven't put the learning into that moment.  You've still got to look for the learning, right?  And so, I think actually, if you put a coach-yourself question in, so you put in your week, you put your ten minutes in your diary at the start of the day, and then you add the coach-yourself question in, so you would literally open up that meeting, the question would be already there, then that's lazy learning, right?  You've already done the hard work for you.  And so, I think those kind of nudges and moments where this thing that you want to do is designed into your day and it has become a default, I don't have to put a lot of effort into making it happen.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, so mine was slightly different.  So, there's a phrase that Katy says where she mentions, "Our mind is more like a sieve than a sponge".  And I think it's also a little bit surprising because I was like, "Oh, we always like to think of our minds as being spongy, when we're learning and we're absorbing a lot", but it is worth remembering how much we forget, essentially.  And she talks about this idea of the 'intention-action gap', and straightaway I think everyone goes, before we even describe that, you get what that is when it comes to change.  

We all have the best intentions, and there is a reason that we then don't quite follow that through to action, even though we want to, it's not that we're not committed to making that change happen.  And that's where she talks about strategies that just help us to close that gap, so that your intention is much more likely to result in action.  And so, whether that's things like commitment devices, and some of those are more, I think it's fair to say, more carrots and some of those are more stick.  And the stick ones tend to work better because we are more motivated by things like loss aversion. So, a commitment device can be, for example, like a financial penalty.  Some of the examples that she gives are like, "Okay, well if I don't do this, I have to give £10 or $50, I think the example is, to a charity that I don't support", which I found a bit -- I was like, "But surely all charities are fine?" but she was talking about them from a political perspective.  I think in the US, there'd be some charities that are more politically motivated.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, there's a guy on the video who put £7,000, what was that website?  I was like, "I'm going to look up this website".  Beeminder, and you can pay for your goals.  So, I think he had this thing, he was going to skydive, and if he didn't do it by a certain day, he'd basically lose $7,000.

Sarah Ellis: I know, that's really dramatic, isn't it?

Helen Tupper: Wow, you must really care about skydiving!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  And I do quite like, I mean, some of the videobooks, some of the images or the videos do surprise you.  So, there is knife-throwing in that video.

Helen Tupper: Yes!

Sarah Ellis: So, if you haven't watched it yet and you're like, "I wasn't really expecting to see knife throwing, but..."

Helen Tupper: The guy with no shirt on throwing a knife!

Sarah Ellis: I know, really good!

Helen Tupper: I was like, "Okay, good for you!"

Sarah Ellis: In every videobook I've watched so far, there is something slightly left field and random that I've been like, "Sure!"  The other thing that can close your intention-action gap is the people you surround yourself with.  So, if I've got something I want to change, if I can find someone else who wants to make the same change, and if you can have that accountability group or connection, that makes a really big difference.  And reminders, but reminders that cut through, so unusual reminders that capture your attention, so they're not too easy to ignore.  And there's lots of examples of those things.  It definitely did make me think, "Okay, I'm quite good at making intentions.  I like to look ahead and I'm always quite motivated by change", but there is definitely sometimes a gap in terms of those intentions and whether they come to fruition.  And there are things that you can start to see that you're like, well, if I put these things in place, it doesn't mean I'll do all of them, but I think your percentage hit rate of how many changes you actually make would definitely go up.

Helen Tupper: It sparks some ideas.  You know when she talked about the kind of surprising reminders, she had this example of there was an alien on the video in front of a till.

Sarah Ellis: I talk to her about that in the interview!  She's got the alien, like on the video she holds up the alien, she's kept it!

Helen Tupper: So, the idea of the alien is it reminds you to do something.  And it's almost, because it's surprising when you see it, it almost acts as a bit of a cue.  And I was thinking about our next book, which I won't go into too much now, but there are certain actions that we would want people to take as a result of reading our book.  And I was like, "Oh, how could we create the equivalent of the alien to help people remember to take action?"  But some insights for another day, but it definitely sparked my thinking there.  So, second thing, what was something that she talked about that surprised you?

Sarah Ellis: So, she describes this idea of the 'fresh start effect', and I think in my mind, this is one of those things that's almost become a bit commercialised, you know like New Year, New You, and I was a bit sceptical about it and I was like, "I bet it doesn't work".  Like, January is no different to any other month, almost you should just when you want to make a change, you should just make a change in that moment.  However, what her research has shown is that actually, the fresh start effect is useful, because it sort of primes us to want to change to do something different.  And so, it doesn't have to be January, it can actually be as simple as a Monday, like the start of a week; it could be post your birthday; it can be post a holiday. 

Finding those fresh start moments are actually good times to think, "That's when I will start to make a change". So, I think I'd probably just thought, "Oh, I just bet that's not true", because you know we always think about broken resolutions, you know, how many people actually stick to them?  But one of the points she does make, and I can't remember the exact numbers, is yes, lots of people don't follow through on their resolutions, but do you know what?  Quite a big percentage of people do.  And so, you often focus on what doesn't happen, but then we sort of lose sight of what does happen.  And so, if you are thinking about making a change and you're listening to this in January, that is a good time.  We're in the right kind of moment.  And if for whatever reason you're listening to this in another moment of the year, you can almost intentionally set a fresh start effect by thinking, "I'll start on Monday", or, "I'll start after this big event", or, I don't know, "If I've got Friday off, then the next Monday might be a good time to do that".  I think just not underestimating how useful the fresh start effect can be, that was what surprised me.

Helen Tupper: So, mine was also the fresh start effect, but so that I don't just repeat what you said, and I'm just going to flick through my notes, environmental changes can supercharge the fresh start effect.  So, you've got Sarah's thing of like the start of a week, or the start of a new job, or something like that are moments that create the fresh start.  But if you add that to an environmental change so, "I'm now working in a different office", or, "I'm working in a different space", those two things together, it's a new week in a new place, that really, really supercharges how effective this is for the fresh start and the re-committing to things.  We can't always move offices, but we could work from a different place.  I could think, "Do you know what?  On Monday, I'm going to start my day, I don't know, I'm going to work from home on a Monday and I'm going to work in a café in the morning", or something like that.  My fresh start commitment, whatever it is I want to achieve that week, is more likely to be effective if maybe I start the week working in a slightly different place.  Maybe it's the novelty of the new is compounded by those two things.  I thought, "That surprised me".  I hadn't really thought of adding those two things together.

Sarah Ellis: So, what action are you going to take?  So, you've learned a lot about change, and I think we both really enjoyed this videobook.  We were both quite fizzy, weren't we, after it?

Helen Tupper: Yeah!

Sarah Ellis: We were like, "Oh, this is really helpful".  It actually prompted loads of ideas for the work we do supporting people with their Squiggly Careers, as well as for the work do with organisations and for ourselves.  I think this is definitely one where we both felt like we learned a lot and there was a lot to apply, lots of interesting insights.  So, from everything, what was your action?

Helen Tupper: I mean, I did like the fresh start effect, so I did think, "I might just think about, across the year, where are my natural fresh start moments?"  I thought I might just map those moments a little bit.  So, Monday feels like a good one, how do I make that a fresh start?  So, I like that.  I also liked, so you know you talked about the reminders and closing the intention-action gap, and she talked about the alien, like a cue can be a powerful way to remind you of your intention?  I thought I might create a few more cues for things that I want to do.  So, what I wrote down was, "When, then".  I'm going to create a few cues like, "When I am on my Peloton, for example, then I might listen to a podcast".  I always go on about like, "Oh, I haven't got time to listen to a podcast".  I sit on a Peloton for like two hours a week.  I could probably Peloton whilst listening to a podcast.  So, I thought I might create a few more 'when, then' cues to help me stick to some of the things that I want to do.  So, that was just an idea that was sparked by listening to her.  What about you?

Sarah Ellis: So, mine was to be really specific about changes you want to make.  And so, one of the things that I want to do more in 2025 is just how much I'm using AI as part of the job that I do.  And so, previously I might have said, "I just want to use AI much more than I do today", and I'd be like, "That's the change I want to make".  And I think from watching and learning from Katy, I was like, "That's not good enough, that's not going to help me to change".  And so, something that would be much better would be, "I am going to experiment with adding AI into every consistent meeting and moment we have as an Amazing If team", so then you can really pinpoint.  

And there aren't that many of those, but I might say, "in January".  So, almost the more you can drill down into exactly what that change is going to be, what that's going to look like, when are you going to do it, how are you going to make that happen, it's kind of like visualising, I suppose, but you've written down with a lot of clarity what that change looks like. I think I could probably even go further.  That was my first attempt, and even talking to you now, I'm like, "Oh, and then I could…" like, I added January then when we were just talking.  

I hadn't actually got that written down, because I thought, "Actually, do you know what?  That probably feels realistic to do in a month".  And then actually, for February, I'd probably want to build on that.  Maybe February is more about trying out some new tools or some different tools.  And I think by adding that level of what it looks like, I feel like you're then sort of pre-determining, "I'm going to do it".  And she talks a lot about, when you say a change out loud, when you share it with other people, you sort of hold yourself to account so much more.  Even if you're giving advice to other people about AI, because people will ask us a lot more now about AI and careers, you're then much more likely to take that advice for yourself.  For something like AI, which I think is a much bigger part of what we're doing now with our learning and development around careers, I want to practise what I'm preaching, and to be able to give that advice in a really credible way. So, I like this idea of being really granular about change.  You know the 'five whys technique', where you drill down, you drill down, you drill down?  I think it's sort of applying that kind of logic to changes.  So, if you're listening now and you've got a change you want to make, I would really encourage you to bring it to life in as much detail as you can, because I think it's really helpful, and I think you spot the gaps you've got too.

Helen Tupper: It's quite a nice link as well with next week's topic on influence, you know that idea of you make a commitment, and then what people tend to do is they act in ways that are consistent with that commitment.  So, having now said out loud that that is what you're going to do, you are much more likely to then act in ways that reinforce what you've said out loud to our thousands of listeners and learners who are part of the Videobook Club. So, that is it for today, because we want to keep this short so that you go spend some time hopefully watching the videobook and taking your own learnings from it.  But Sarah will be back tomorrow for her conversation with Katy.  So, some quick insights into what we can expect from that conversation, Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: I think Katy does an excellent job of summarising the insights she's gained from her research, which is over a long period of time.  She's got really good examples.  And one of the things that we haven't talked about today, which we do talk about in our conversation, are things like gamification and play, and how important enjoying change is, and this idea of something called 'temptation bundles', which again, neither of us have picked out in our conversation today, but I did find really interesting.  So, there's a bit of reinforcing some of the concepts you and I have talked about, but there's also quite a lot of new news as well.

Helen Tupper: So, hopefully you found this a useful conversation and that you will join us for our community discussion, which is on Thursday.  You should have all of the links for that if you want to come and contribute to that, but if you haven't, just email us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  And thank you for joining us in the Squiggly Careers Videobook Club. Sarah Ellis: Thanks so much for listening everyone, see you again soon.