Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:06: Differentiating problems from challenges
00:02:27: A problem-solving scale…
00:02:52: … small, short-term problems
00:03:55: Sarah's example of a small, short-term problem
00:05:15: … significant long-term problems
00:05:55: Sarah's example of a long-term problem
00:07:59: Six ideas for action…
00:09:30: … 1: practise curious questions
00:12:24: … 2: channelling your inner imperfectionist
00:15:40: … 3: be a fly on the wall
00:18:42: … 4: trial and error
00:22:16: … 5: cognitive diversity
00:25:16: … 6: fast feedback
00:29:17: Summary of actions
00:31:37: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly show where we talk through the ups and downs of work today and help you to take action to support your development.  One of our business values is "useful" and we're now producing lots of different resources every week to make your time spent listening and learning as useful as possible.

So, we've got worksheets, we've got summaries, we've got live sessions; they are all free and you can sign up for them in our weekly Squiggly Careers PodMail email, so that you can get everything and never miss out.  The link for that is in our episode description.

Sarah Ellis: So, today we're talking about problem-solving.  We actually had some problem solving even first thing this morning, because for the first time in a long time, we are recording this podcast in the same room, which creates new challenges, and we've solved that problem by me recording this now with my microphone balanced on an ironing board!  So, I don't usually use an ironing board, but today it's come in very, very handy.

So, when we think about problem-solving, we're reflecting on what does this mean, and then how can we be helpful with the ideas for action that we're going to share today.  And problems, we think, are perhaps different to challenges, in that challenges are still complicated, perhaps unfamiliar; they're often more known.  I think challenges, you know that you've got a challenge to overcome or a challenge to think through, and that's how we've tried to make the distinction between the two; problems are, whether it's within a day or in a week or within a year, you didn't know that it was coming your way.

I think within Squiggly Careers, where we know there is just loads of complexity, lots of knotty moments, lots of ambiguity, problem-solving is something that I'm sure everyone listening probably does every day in some way.  And I think the better you become, the more tools and the more tactics you have to help you solve problems, the more you'll be able to achieve your objectives, and whether that's your objectives in your day-to-day job, or your objectives and goals for your career.

Helen Tupper: And actually, when you look at some of the reports that LinkedIn put out about the most in-demand soft skills, problem-solving is one of the top five skills.  So, I think if you can really invest in your problem-solving skillset, it not only helps you today, but it also helps in your career resilience too.  It's one of those transferrable talents that we talk about that's in demand by your employer today, and whoever you're going to work for in the future.

A useful starting place might be to think about a problem-solving scale today and what type of problems you might be spending most of your time on.  We think that there are two ends to this scale; there are the small and short-term problems; and there are some of the significant, harder, long-term problems.  And it's not that one type of problem-solving is better than another, but there are pros and cons to both.

So for example, the small and short-term problems; that's more like the everyday stuff, those unexpected things that pop up in your inbox or in a meeting and you're like, "Oh, I didn't know I was going to have to deal with that thing today!"  The advantage of it is, I think sometimes you can make quite a quick impact, you can get stuff done.  I think you can show your strengths quite quickly to people in those moments. 

But the danger sometimes, I think you can often get stuck solving the same problems, because the same things can pop up again and again.  There's this thing called, Tunnelling, which is where you get so focussed on solving the problems, particularly if they just keep coming up day after day, it's like that fire-fighting thing, that sometimes you don't look outside the problem to think, "Well, what's causing this; what's the root cause; how do I stop it at the root so I don't have to keep solving it every day?"

So, it's just a bitch of a watch-out if you find yourself spending most of your time on small problems, particularly if it's some of the same ones that just keep popping up over and over again.  Have you got an example, Sarah, of small problems that you've been solving?

Sarah Ellis: Well, I think when I think about when I worked in corporate affairs and you're working more with media and journalists, it wasn't that I felt like we were tunnelling, I think it's just it was naturally a very reactive job, where you never quite knew what problem you were going to need to solve that day; so, you were constantly having to reprioritise. 

It was quite a common occurrence that your day would go out of the window and actually, I always found that kind of problem-solving hard; it took me a while to get used to.  Because I'm naturally a planner, and we're going to talk about more significant problems in a minute, I think I am more of a natural big problem-solver and I don't think I was quite as good naturally at those short-term, unexpected, like you say, suddenly something comes into your inbox which throws out your day.  Almost getting your head into the right mindset to then solve that problem quickly and to feel comfortable about letting stuff go, I think that was a real example of where, you know you learn by doing?

I got better at solving problems quickly just by being in an environment where that was the nature of that job.  And I think it was why I felt so far out of my comfort zone for quite a long time, because it just felt really different; that kind of a job felt really different to anything I'd done before.  So, I think I got better at it through almost putting myself in that kind of team that that was the nature of the work.

Helen Tupper: So, the other types of problems then and, Sarah, maybe these are the ones that you're going to have to let me know, but these are the significant longer-term problems, the ones that just take more time to solve; and they might be bigger problems from the outset as well.  The advantage of these ones, if these are the ones that you are good at, these are the ones that you spend time on, I think this is where you can make more meaningful change sometimes, because they are more significant.

But sometimes the watch-out here is, you can get stuck in these, because they are so big, particularly if you might be approaching it on your own, or feel like this is a thing for you to solve.  I think sometimes, you can get stuck and maybe even stall in those situations, because they can feel quite overwhelming.

Sarah Ellis: And, we were talking actually about the different types of problems and whether some of the problems that you face might be more people-type problems, and some of them might be more about processes or projects.  And I think one of the examples I thought of about a more significant problem that was both complicated and unexpected was more of a people problem for me, which is when I first joined Sainsbury's, the manager who recruited me, very quickly, I think it was within about six weeks, was then off to do another job and was leaving the company. 

I was there, in a new job, I didn't know anyone, in a new company, no one really knew me or what I was meant to be doing; and actually, the person who I was meant to be replacing had also changed her mind, didn't end up turning up either.  So, I had this long period of time thinking, "Oh, wow, I seem to have got this problem that I didn't know I was going to need to solve, which is I don't know the organisation; I'm not 100% sure what my objectives are meant to be.  How do I craft my job, but also create the connections that I need to get my job done?"

So, it was almost like a people one and I definitely felt, to Helen's point about sometimes feeling quite stuck or stalling, I felt a bit stuck, because I was in that quite by myself, I wasn't really part of a team, because I was meant to be setting up a new team; and I felt quite lonely and quite isolated, I think, because I was thinking, "I don't know how to solve this.  I've not done this before".  I was very used to knowing people in organisations who could help me.

So, that was a really interesting problem to solve and as we talk about some of the ideas later in the podcast, I think a couple of the ideas for action we're going to talk about really helped me to solve that problem for myself in terms of how I felt about doing that job, but also then to do a better job of the job itself.

Helen Tupper: So, before we go onto the ideas for action, I think it is useful just to pause and think, what types of problems do you spend most of your time solving today; and what is the advantage that that creates for you in your career; and what sometimes might that cause in terms of a challenge?  It's just useful for you to think about that.  But when you've done that reflection, we've got ideas for you; we've got ideas for how you solve them. 

What we've actually done is we have taken a report that McKinsey have produced, which is all about a problem-solving mindset, actually.  It's got six different ways in which you can shift your mindset and take a creative approach to problem-solving.  We've taken that report and their six different ideas, and what we have done is thought practically about how you put them into action.  So, we've got some specific approaches, solutions, things that you can try out, so that you can take a more creative approach to problem-solving and do these things differently, so that you can unlock new ways forward.

There's a quote from Albert Einstein.  I always laugh whenever I quote Albert Einstein, because I think, "Just quote a genius, Helen"!  But he said that, "You can never solve a problem on the level on which it was created", and that's why we quite like these ideas, because they help you to get to a different level to approach a problem from a different perspective.

The idea here is that, as we go through these six different approaches, you don't necessarily have to take all these different approaches with one problem, it's just about picking an approach that might be appropriate for the problem, and trying some different things out, seeing what works for you, doing something that you've not done before.  So, it's not linear; listen as we go through these six different ideas and think about, for the problems that you might be facing at the moment, whether they're small and short-term, or longer-term and significant, which one of these approaches could you try out.

What we will do as well is we will put a link to the report and we will summarise these six different approaches in the PodSheet, which you can access on our website as well.  So, shall I go first with number one, Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: Go for it!

Helen Tupper: Okay.  So, the first approach is to practise curious questions.  The idea here is that, when you've got your first solution to a problem, it's almost just to probe around that a little bit, see if you can identify some things that might get in the way of that solution, so that you can think it through a bit further.  One of the things that we have done in our sessions and in our business that's helped us is, we take the name of our business at Amazing If, and we turn that into a question.

So, the question would be, "Wouldn't it be Amazing If we could find a new market for our product?" for example, whatever problem it is you're trying to solve.  "Wouldn't it be Amazing If…?" frames that problem quite positively as a statement, so that's your starting point.  Then, what you want to do is ask a curious question that can invite some challenge. 

So, the next thing you'd follow that question up with is, "It won't work because…".  "Wouldn't it be Amazing If we could find a new market for our product?  It won't work because our product isn't ready yet [or] we can't produce our product at scale yet"; really invite these challenges.  Then what you do is, you invite different ideas and solutions.  So, the third question that you ask then is, "One way we could overcome that is…?"

So, your three questions are, "Wouldn't it be Amazing If…?"; "It won't work because…"; and, "One way we could overcome it is…"  What we have done is in sessions, we have gone through those questions as a group and just started to get curious.  Sometimes you get to new solutions; you definitely get to a more open discussion; but it's just about exploring and not always going with the first answer that someone comes out with.  And I find it really good, particularly if you're like me and sometimes, you want to solve things so quickly that sometimes you move forward with the first answer, and it might not always be the best answer.

Sarah Ellis: The other thing that I think this approach does really well is, it takes the pressure off solving the problem, because you've created a bit of space almost to explore the problem before you get to solving.  So, I think this one is particularly useful for when you do have a bit more time.  I don't think for every problem in your day, you're going to be going, "Well, wouldn't it be Amazing If…?"  You'd probably get quite annoyed quite quickly!

But I think if you have had a problem come your way, you've not expected it, it feels quite complicated, maybe it feels overwhelming, you're like, "I feel stuck", it doesn't feel very solvable; having a very open conversation, even if it's just a couple of you, just going through this process, I think, as Helen said, you'll generate lots of ideas.  I suspect the conversation often goes in directions that you just hadn't anticipated. 

So, I think as long as you set yourself the goal for these kinds of conversations is just to explore and not to solve, you'll get to some really, really good opportunities and options that then you can figure out the case, "So, what do we do next?" but not feeling like you have to do that in the exact same moment.

So, idea for action two is about channelling your inner imperfectionist.  So, when we are solving problems, I think small or big problems, we have to embrace the ambiguity and uncertainty that comes with that, because if we try to be perfect with everything, we won't make progress.  I know that this is often really easy to say and much harder to do, because we want to do a really good job; we want things to do go well; we care about the work that we do. 

So often, we're a perfectionist for some very good reasons and with some very positive intent; but it can mean that when we're trying to solve problems, if we're trying to be too much of a perfectionist, we stall and it does feel like we're not moving forward.  So, for example, we were thinking about when has this been relevant for us in the last year. 

So, when we were trying to think about a problem where this has been important for us, we found that when we were thinking back to when the pandemic first started, we had a really big problem to solve which is, how do we pivot all of our business online?  So, in that situation, we could have wasted quite a lot of time trying to find a perfect solution that probably didn't exist, that we'll never know.  But the thing that I think worked really well for us was just to focus on, "How do you start making progress?" versus that problem; "How do you actually take action?" so you're not thinking about it; you're very much prioritising doing over thinking.

A really practical thing that we did that really helped us both was, we started to have a Post-it note wall.  And it's funny; we don't have it now, but it really worked for that moment in time, where on the left-hand side of a wall, we had lots of Post-it notes and each Post-it note had one small action, something we wanted to do.  And, each time we took an action, we moved that Post-it note, physically moved it from the left-hand side of the wall to the right-hand side of the wall.

I think, what that helped us to do was create the momentum that we needed to just keep making progress towards solving that problem; and also, not to see it as a binary thing, as a, "Oh, we've solved that problem now", just keep going and learn as you go.  And then I think from doing that, you start to figure out, "Well, what is really helping us to pivot our business; and what doesn't feel like it's a useful and we can probably do a bit less of that?"  So, I suppose this is very much solving a problem by learning by doing and a real emphasis on doing.

Helen Tupper: I think as well, just reflecting on that particular time for us and how we got over a need to kind of get it right first time, I think it's useful to have some kind of forcing function.  I remember for us, we had one of the clients -- so, our day-to-day role is delivering career development programmes for companies and we had a client that we were due to do something face to face with that was like, "Look, we still want to do this in two weeks' time, but can you do it all virtually?"  So, we were like, "Okay, we've got to find a solution for that.  We've got this date in the diary and that is a commitment that we want to keep".

I wonder whether as well, in creating that commitment that you want to keep, whether that's something that you say to yourself or say to other people, it's like a forcing function that you've just got to start; it doesn't have to be perfect, but you've got to get started and it might just give you that thing to focus on as well.

So, our third idea for action is all about being a fly on the wall.  The idea here is sometimes with our problems, we can get a bit lost in them.  It's almost like, "Well, what did we do last time we had this problem?" and you just use all the information and the insights that you've got today to try and solve them.  That might mean that you don't come up with new solutions; you get stuck solving the same problems, because you're not really getting that innovative or creative about how you can overcome them.

What you can do so that you can start to get a different perspective on your problem, is to get a bit of distance from it; that's this idea really of being a fly on the wall.  The most easy way to do this is to ask yourself, "What would somebody else do?"  So, let's say I had a work problem, like I was feeling really overwhelmed about my workload and I don't know how to take control of it; very realistic problem!  What I might think is, "Well, what would Sarah do?  I know what Sarah would do; she would just block out a day and communicate that boundary and make sure that nobody else would encroach upon that boundary".  So, I'd be thinking, "Okay, well I need to get much firmer about protecting my time".

Or, if I thought about, "What might my old manager, James, do?"  He would probably, if James was feeling overwhelmed, do you know what James would do, because he's a really social person?  He'd be like, "Screw it; let's just have a team day and have some fun"!  That definitely is what he'd do, because he'd be like, "Well, that will distract everyone from the day job, create some new energy and we can all bring that energy back to the day job and people won't feel so stuck in a solution.

Sarah Ellis: Probably not a bad shout!

Helen Tupper: I know!

Sarah Ellis: It's never what I would think to do, but it probably does work.

Helen Tupper: I honestly hadn't thought of either of those things until I said them, and they are both genuine things that both Sarah and James would have done in light of that problem.  It just starts to unlock your thinking, particularly if you'd just got stuck in the ways that you'd done things before, and therefore you just keep solving the same problem.

So, be a fly on the wall, think about some people who just approach things differently to you, and ask yourself, "What would they do; how would they approach this problem?"

Sarah Ellis: And we've used this a few times in our business in the last year.  And I think the really important point is that you are specific.  So, this is not asking yourself, "What would other people do?"  Make sure you insert the name, "What would Helen do?  What would Rob do?  What would Rachel do?" because as soon as you do that, you almost create in your mind that persona.  You almost imagine that person and you can start to think about, "Well, what's their default problem-solving mode; what do they do really well?" and then you can essentially borrow that brilliance from them, without even having to talk to them.  It's a really handy tactic.

Actually, I think this does work quite quickly.  I think when I've done this, it really helps you in the moment.  If you're trying to solve something quite quickly and you just feel a bit stuck, it just opens up a few different perspectives and you think straightaway, "Okay, yeah, I'll try that", and then you can just keep going.  So I think as well, if you're in a week thinking, "Why am I just not making any progress with this problem?", this can be really helpful.

So, idea for action four is all about trial and error and this is about, how do you create some tests that take you into the future?  So often, I think, when we're trying to solve a problem, we're very much in the here and now and we very much rely, understandably, on the data that we've collected before, or the things that we already know, but we're sort of assuming that we live in a stable, constant, consistent place.  So, we need to get into this creation and testing mode.

We thought, the best way to bring this live is to give you an example, and very relevant to the podcast is, we've recently tried to create lots more resources to help you with the podcast, so things like our PodSheets and our PodNotes.  So we thought, "Brilliant, we're being really useful there".  But that has actually created an unexpected problem for us in that people can't find them!  We'd thought, "Wow, we're doing something really positive here", which we hope that we are, but we've now almost created this problem for ourselves where people are like, "How do you find them; how do I navigate them?"  We don't necessarily have a community where everybody is all at the same time; you're all really busy.

So, we've now got this problem that we hadn't anticipated, where people will be messaging us on Instagram, or perhaps emailing us, or contacting us on LinkedIn going, "Where is this PodNote [or] how do I find that PodSheet?"  So, it's almost, we've created a mess for ourselves!

Helen Tupper: You're making it sound really bad!

Sarah Ellis: Well, the resources, once you find them, if you can find them, they're useful; but finding them is an unexpected problem that we hadn't anticipated that we were going to need to solve.  So, then what you can do is start to think about, "How can we just create some small tests to see, 'Can we create some solutions to that problem?'"

So for example, that's why we've now done this PodMail and before we even sent it out, we actually just put almost a mock-up of that PodMail -- I say "we"; the royal we, Helen -- put a mock-up of that PodMail on our Instagram and just said, "Does this solve the problem?  How helpful is this?"  And what's really interesting about that trial-and-error approach is, lots of people came back to us and said, "Sort of.  Some of this would be really good, but have you thought about this extra idea [or] would you test this additional thought [or] I've seen something elsewhere that's really helpful; why don't you borrow that bit of brilliance?"

So almost through some very quick trial and error, I think that's only been a week; over the course of a week, the problem started to come our way, and almost it came in dribs and drabs.  The problem built over time.  We were going, "Oh, this is becoming more and more of a problem".  Then in the last week, we've just done loads of trial and error to think, "How can we create data; how can we think about what this could look like?" and then just get that data back and think, "That works; that doesn't work", and we're still in that process.  I think we're still very in the, sometimes people call it the AB testing.  So we're just, "Let's just keep putting things out that give us data, and then we'll start to figure out what feels more useful and also, what doesn't work, as well".  But please sign up for PodMail!

Helen Tupper: That wasn't why we talked about it, but it was a very real problem and a recent problem.

Sarah Ellis: Or, tell us why it's not the right answer.  Either way, it's fine, because we're testing and we're trial and error, so it's fine!

Helen Tupper: I think that is the good mentality though as well, isn't it?  You go into it and you continue with that.  It's always work in progress; it's a work-in-progress problem and we're trying to keep collecting that insight and information and the data to solve the problem better, without ever thinking we're going to perfect it.

The fifth idea for action is all about cognitive diversity, and this is basically about bringing different brains into your problem-solving.  The advantage of this is that people will see things from different perspectives, they will have different insights and experiences, and even though one person might not have the solution, together the premise is that you can come up with better when you connect those dots.  That's the benefit of cognitive diversity and, if it's a topic you find quite interesting, it's something that Matthew Syed talked to us about on a previous episode, when we talked about his book, Rebel Ideas and just the benefit of bringing different people into a situation to solve a problem.

I remember, I think the time when I've really seen this in action was when I was at E.ON, because we have this problem and a bit of a challenge, to be honest, which was about, how do we create a new revenue stream for E.ON?  So, E.ON's a company that sells energy and people are using less energy to become more efficient, and this was a problem for the business about, what could we differently to sustain this, but do it in a way that was sustainable for the world as well? 

It was a really, messy, difficult, challenging problem.  No one had the solution to that problem, and we definitely did a bit of what Sarah was saying, trial and error, so there were lots of approaches of collecting data about what worked.  But one of the things that my manager, Phil, did which I thought was great was he brought this cognitive diversity into the team by setting up a board and he had brought in different brains from outside of the organisation.  Actually, there were two Tims and two Toms now I think about it; it's so funny!

There was one guy, called Tim, who had worked in financial services; another guy, called Tim, who had a particularly entrepreneurial, innovative brain and had done some stuff with government as well, so he was bringing a different mindset and a different skillset as well in terms of what he did; and then, there were the two Toms that worked in research, so they had a customer approach.  We had these people on our board and they just brought in lots of different ideas and perspectives and challenges, and it was so helpful for the team.  It really enriched our solutions and made us pause and think differently.

I think, if you think about, as you're approaching a problem, who are those brains that you're bringing into the room, or the zoom, however you're approaching this problem-solving at the moment, and what it is that they're bringing that you haven't got today; because, I think it's so beneficial to make time for that so that you can just explore a problem from a different perspective.

Sarah Ellis: And, if you think about someone like Priya Parker, where she talks about why gatherings work and when people come together, when is that particularly effective and useful in organisations, the thing that she often says is missing, the key mistake the people make, is not having that purpose.  And, I think that problem just gives you a very clear focus of people to gather around and all to apply their respective expertise to.  So, it's something I'm really fascinated in and I think is really interesting.

Then, the idea for action six is about fast feedback, and I really like this quote from IDEO, who are a design thinking company, and they say, "If a picture is worth 1,000 words, a protype is worth 1,000 meetings".  This is the idea of just, create something quickly.  Get it sketched out, get it onto a bit of paper.  This is where you can use all of your creative skills, but without any judgement, which is always the perfect scenario, right?

So, if you want to build a new website, just draw it first.  If you want to create a new product, have a go at building it.  If you were spending time in a room with someone like IDEO, they'd get the Lego out and they'd go, "Right, well try and build it in Lego".  It's this idea of going, the quicker you create something, the quicker you can get feedback, because the point here really is about that fast feedback.  Sometimes, I think we can just keep going, keep tweaking a bit, before we get that fast feedback, and then we learn slower.

It's funny; I'm definitely not a perfectionist, but I do find this one harder because it's this idea of, it's quite exposing, isn't it sometimes, to show someone something where you know already it could be better and you know there are things that you could improve about it.  And so, it does take confidence and a bit of vulnerability to go, "It is very work in progress, but we'd really appreciate just some fast feedback.  What do you really like about this; what could be even better if…?"

I think where we've done this the best in the past six months is showing people different examples for our book cover.  Even Helen and I, really quickly, we were, "Right, fast feedback for each other" and then, I think within that day, we had probably shared it with four or five different networks of people that we were part of, four or five different communities saying, "Here are three or four covers.  They are all work in progress".  I really wanted to tweak some of those before we even shared them, but you just have to let that go and just say to people, "What do you think; what do you really like; which one really appeals to you?"

What's so interesting about doing that is, I think the feedback that we had, the overall consensus in terms of the one that people found most interesting, the one that people responded most positively to, wasn't necessarily where I think I would have started.  So then, we made much more progress as a result, because we didn't waste time developing two or three options.  I think, you know when you do that "hedge your best", you always think, "I'm just going to…"; and that also appeals to me actually, "I'm just going to hedge my bets and just do two or three and just see how it goes", not really being more definitive and really going after maybe one option.

I think, because we did that fast feedback, we very quickly went, "Okay, so it's something a bit like this.  So now, let's work really hard on making that one absolutely brilliant", and then you can put all your energy and efforts into that and it's a much more efficient way, I think, of solving a problem of getting to an answer.  So, think about that; think about, if you're trying to solve a problem quickly, could you just create anything that will just give somebody the opportunity to look at it and give you some really fast feedback.

If you're like me, it does feel quite uncomfortable, because sometimes people will tell you things you already know and you know it's not right, but you know it's worth it in the spirit of going, you will definitely learn something new.  And, if you're like me and you're achievement oriented, I just hold on really tight to the fact that I will meet my objective, meet my outcomes quicker and better if you can incorporate fast feedback into how you work.  The smart thing as well is that I think people then becoming more invested in the outcome.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, they do, you're right, because they feel like they've put a bit of themselves into the solution; they've contributed to it.

Sarah Ellis: Which they have.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  And then, when you evolve it, they're like, "How's it going?  Do you need any more help?" and then sometimes, there's a bit of pride in there if the thing that they suggested is the thing that's part of how it's solved.  So, yeah, it's also quite, I think, a strategically smart move to make as you solve problems, particularly as you might need some support along the way to put them into action.

So, let's just really quickly summarise the six different approaches that you could take and as I summarise them, I think have this question in your mind, "Which of these six do you think you do well today?" that you're like, "Yeah, I do that one; that's one that I'm familiar with".  And which one of these do you think, "That's an area I could improve; that's a solution that I could try out to how I might approach problem-solving".

So the six are: the first one was about practising curious questions; the second was to channel your inner imperfectionist; the third was to be a fly on the wall; the fourth was trial and error; the fifth was about cognitive diversity; and that last sixth one was about getting fast feedback.  Sarah, one more question to you: which one of those do you well today; which one comes naturally to you; and which one do you think you could spend more time doing or improve on?

Sarah Ellis: I think the thing that I do well is, I'm good at ambiguity generally and uncertainty.  I'm happy to make progress over perfection, as in I will just start to get things done and I don't worry if I can't see all of the solution, particularly with big problems; so, that point about the Post-it notes and just figure out, "Well, what could we do today?" and almost have, you know people say, "Trust the process"?  I think I do.  With really big problems, I think I trust the process of, "If you make progress, you can trust the process".  So, that one I think I feel good about.  I think it suits my strengths and it's something I've got experience doing, so I know I can do well.

The one I'd like to improve on, so personally, I really recognise the value of fast feedback, but I know I find it hard; it takes me out of my comfort zone.  I really appreciate the fact that I think actually that's something you're good at, so we definitely do that, but I always have to take a deep breath before doing it.

But the one that I'm really fascinated about is the cognitive diversity point, around bringing people together with the purpose of helping to solve a problem.  So, I'd be really interested for us in thinking about, what problems, or when we have problems that come our way, who are the people that we could bring together and convene who might help us to think differently, act differently, because I think I'd just be really intrigued about that as process.  It's not something that we do today.

Helen Tupper: Do you know what's so funny listening to you as well?  That question is a curious question and that is such a Sarah thing to do, just to think, "Oh, a different question that helps me think differently about it"!

Well, we hope that has been helpful for you.  Have these in your back pocket so the next time you have something that's unexpected and sometimes might feel like it throws you off course, come back to this podcast, go back to that PodSheet, and try out one of these approaches to help you work your way through it.  Anything else, Sarah, before we say goodbye to everybody this week?

Sarah Ellis: Just really appreciate everybody who has been rating, viewing, subscribing to the podcast.  We read every review and we really appreciate them.  It's a small five-minute favour that you can do for us.  So, if you've been listening for a while and keep meaning to give us a star rating and/or write a review, you don't have to do both, you can just do the star rating; we would really appreciate it, because it helps other people to find our podcast.  So, if you can do that if you have a spare minute, we'd be really grateful.

Helen Tupper: Thank you so much for listening, everybody.  If you ever have any feedback for us, you're always welcome to get in touch.  We're just helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com, but otherwise we'll hopefully be back with many of you next week everyone.  Bye!

Sarah Ellis: Thanks so much for listening, everyone.  Bye for now.