Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:39: Why working with introverts/extroverts matters
00:04:38: A simple definition of extroversion/introversion
00:06:23: Some introvert traits
00:08:33: Some extrovert traits
00:11:58: Ideas for action…
00:12:26: … 1: you/me/we
00:15:35: … 2: notice what works
00:18:38: … 3: be on the lookout
00:23:37: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly show where we dive into the ups, downs, ins and outs of your world of work, and give you some ideas for action and some tools to try out to help you with your development.  We really, really care about you feeling confident about your career, about you having a bit of clarity about what you want to achieve, and you being able to go after what you want.  And so hopefully this podcast will be a useful lesson to help you to do that.  And if it is the first time that you are listening, it is worth knowing that we create lots of different resources to support you.  

So, we've got things like our PodSheets, they're one-page summaries that you can download afterwards and they'll help you to take action.  It'll have all the ideas that we talk about today.  We have PodNotes, which we put on social, so make sure you're following us @amazingif on Instagram or LinkedIn.  They're good swipable and shareable summaries, if you know other people that they might help.  And also, PodPlus, which is a weekly get-together with a group of like-minded learners.  It's completely free, it's 30 minutes, it's Thursday at 9.00am in the UK, and it's a good place to dive in a bit deeper into what we're talking about today, which is, how can introverts and extroverts work better together? 

Sarah Ellis: The way that you started that, that does very much sound like, particularly for our regular listeners who will know that I'm more of an introvert and you're more of an extrovert, that we now need to work better together because you were like --

Helen Tupper: Where could this idea have come from for this podcast?! 

Sarah Ellis: But actually, for once, that's not where this idea has come from.  I think it's more some insights that we've read and we know it's a topic lots of people are interested in.  And we also do recognise that as somebody who is relatively introverted, and I think it's probably fair to say very extroverted, we'll come on to that, we work really well together, but that has taken work.  So, for that relationship to be better, for us to see all the positive benefits of having different styles, I think over time we've been more and more intentional and thoughtful about that; whereas initially when we were just friends, I think you don't really care in the same way. 

Helen Tupper: Well I think now, I see it as like a real strength of ours.  I think, I don't know, five, ten years ago, I probably would have been like, "Oh, this difference can sometimes be a bit difficult"; whereas now, because Sarah and I are really getting into writing our third book at the moment, all I see is the benefits of it, because I just know that it gets better because of what Sarah brings and I know that I bring stuff too.  And it's not just the book, it's lots of things.  And so now, I just really value it and I see it as almost a not-so-secret strength of our partnership, is that we've both got these differences in introversion and extroversion. 

Sarah Ellis: And I think this matters for everyone for three reasons.  Firstly, most of us don't work alone, we work in teams, so there's always going to be a mixture of introverts and extroverts.  And some people will also identify as what's sometimes described as ambiverts, where they sort of go, "Oh, I feel like I'm a bit of both".  And as we've always said, or I always say, I always think labels are not helpful, it's just more about self-awareness.  So, as we describe this today, just see which one of these feels most like you. 

I think the second reason this matters is that when you do this well, you are just more effective, you achieve a better balance.  And actually, there's some really interesting articles and stories you can read about introvert/extrovert combinations.  Wozniak and Steve Jobs at Apple is probably the most famous one.  But that's because they bring very different things, they bring very different strengths. 

Then thirdly, I do think sometimes extrovert/introvert relationships can cause friction.  Those relationships can feel like there's lots of conflict, they can just feel challenging.  And maybe you recognise that in the work that you do, so you think, "Well, I've got to work with this person".  It might be a manager, it might be a peer, and you just know they've got a very different style and approach.  And you're thinking, "Well, how can we constructively move forward so that we can get some of these benefits that we're going to describe?" 

Helen Tupper: Well, I think until I'd really worked with you for as long as we have now, I think I'd probably only really thought about introversion and extroversion probably when it frustrated me.  Most of the time I don't think about it, but when you're kind of frustrated or find someone difficult, you're like, "Oh, that's because they're like this".  And I think now, since obviously we've worked together so closely for quite a long time now, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, there's a really different opportunity in this".  If you can start to really think about what's the benefit that, you know, me being an extrovert and you being an introvert, what's the benefit that that brings, and then I almost look out and look forward now to working with introverts because of it.  That's very different to where I probably thought about this years ago. 

Sarah Ellis: So, a very simple definition of introversion and extroversion, a sort of go-to one if you're looking for a real shortcut, is often, where do you get your energy from?  So typically, introverts recharge and re-energise.  I think of it as like, what does it take to plug your battery in?  If you've got to recharge your battery for your laptop or whatever, what does that look like for you?  And introverts tend to recharge solo, by themselves or perhaps in very small groups, particularly with people they know very well. 

Extroverts, on the other hand, recharge with other people, like to be surrounded by other people, probably quite happy in big groups.  And we'll dive a little bit more into just being a bit careful about making assumptions around introversion and extroversion.  I always think it's really important that people describe it for themselves, you know, like what does that mean; what does introversion mean to me?  Because for example, I think there are lots of people who are much more introverted than me, and I think their working style would probably still be very different to mine.  So, we both might be, on the surface, introverts; but then, say if you worked with that person versus me, it might feel very different.  So, I think just give everybody the opportunity to go, "Oh, and then this is how it shows up".  But certainly for the two of us, that's definitely true about how we plug our batteries in. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I think two good questions are, which one do you identify more with, introvert or extrovert; not putting you in a box, you're not only that, but which do you identify more with?  And, how does that show up for you, to the point that it can be quite nuanced and we're not trying to say, "As a result, these are five things that determine how you show up at work". 

Sarah Ellis: So, we thought it'd be helpful just to start by Helen sharing the introvert traits she sees in me, and then I'll share the extrovert traits that I see in Helen. 

Helen Tupper: So, these are some introvert traits that I definitely see in Sarah quite a lot.  She's very reflective and thoughtful.  So, Sarah stays in her head much longer than me and considers things, I think, more deeply, which is very, very useful.  Also, considers things from other people's perspectives as well, I see that a lot.  She has fewer relationships than me, but they're deeper, they're longer, and I think you are able to ask more of those people because of that.  So, I sort of see Sarah being able to make bigger asks of the people that she has these relationships with.  A definite discomfort with large groups, so we just avoid them basically, and the idea of large groups.  So, that might be creating a big Squiggly Career community, and Sarah will be like, "Oh, I'm not sure about that", just the idea of it, because she'll be thinking, "Is that effective?  Is everyone going to be comfortable in that?" just the idea of it.  But then the reality of it. 

I would say the reality of it is just, Sarah will only enjoy a large group -- it's not that she can't be in it, but she will only want to be part of it for a shorter period of time.  So, let's say we're having a big event with lots of people.  Sarah will definitely be there, and she'll definitely show up and engage with lots of people, but I can almost see the energy waning.  I can see when Sarah's like, "That's it now, I need to go".  It's normally a time when I'm kicking in, but Sarah's like, "Helen, I'm off.  You sort this bar bill and you start the next one, because you're obviously going to keep going"!  So I definitely see kind of a cutoff.  Doesn't mean Sarah doesn't get involved in them, but there's definitely a cutoff line when it's enough. 

I see a very different dynamic from Sarah in small-group situations versus social situations; just behaves really differently, in some way, surprisingly.  So, to the point about, don't assume all introverts are the same, sometimes Sarah can be much chattier than me in certain situations and I used to be like, "What's going on here?  I'm the chatty one", and I'd be quiet and think that actually it's nervousness.  I now know that it's the way that Sarah feels in control of that situation, is to talk in it quite a lot, because I don't know, I think it's nerves; whereas I never used to realise that.  

So, I think be careful not to make assumptions.  But they are some of the things that I see in you that I now know that that's how introversion shows up for you. 

Sarah Ellis: So, some extrovert traits that I see in Helen.  Firstly, she radiates energy in a room, so you're never going to miss her, you'll always know she's there.  And we've known each other for a long time, and even in our university cohort, that was true.  But I think particularly in big groups, it's almost like your energy gets bigger, the bigger the room, the bigger the group.  I'm looking for the fire escape and you're just like, I don't know, I feel just glowing. 

Helen Tupper: I'd been looking for the slide. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah! 

Helen Tupper: I'd be like, "Where's the slide in the room?  We can have a party! 

Sarah Ellis: It's really helpful because it just means I don't have to do it, so it's so good!  Socialising is definitely a source of pleasure and it's something for you to look forward to, and I just see how important it is in your weeks.  And it's funny, I think sometimes there'll be an evening where you'll be out almost partying and I might be sitting at home working and I just sometimes think, "Oh, well we're both happy in our work.  It just looks very different".  I see a lot more blurred lines and boundaries between work relationships and friendships with you.  I mean, I literally overheard you on a call yesterday suggesting to somebody like, "Oh, should we go out for a drink?  Should we get dinner?"  And I was thinking -- 

Helen Tupper: I mean, that's gone in the diary, that's totally gone in the diary. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I know, I heard you then doing it.  I was just thinking that happens a lot less frequently with me.  Some of my best friends are from people I've met at work.  But I think you do that very frequently and almost with lots of different people, and again, to the point where I'm not assuming you're a really good listener.  So, I think sometimes people have these very surface level assumptions, "Oh, extroverts, they're sort of, I don't know, loud, noisy, they always shout the loudest".  And I'm always like, well, you're unmissable, that's definitely true, but you don't feel the need to shout the loudest, you don't always feel the need to have presence through interrupting or saying the most.  And we talked before, I think you're a really good listener and getting even better all the time, and you don't have that nervous energy that I definitely have and kind of have to work quite hard now on trying not to have, because usually it's not that helpful.  So, they're the extrovert traits that I see in you. 

Helen Tupper: I think it's actually, it's a useful thing to ask yourself, you know, if I identify as an extrovert, how do I think that shows up?  But also, to get that played back by somebody else, because you might get some quite surprising insights in that, which I think could be just useful.  It's more data for your development, as we often say. 

Sarah Ellis: And I saw recently that Adam Grant, who has talked before about being introverted -- and there is a great book if you are an introvert called Quiet, The Power of Introverts by a lady called Susan Cain, and I think Adam Grant and Susan Cain know each other, and he talks about what an introvert means to him.  So actually, he said for him, it's not about where he gets his energy.  So he said, for him being an introvert is not about where you get your energy, it's how you handle stimulation.  Introverts are energised by people too, and I really recognise that, I'm still really energised by people.  But he goes on to say, "We're just easily exhausted by loud parties, close talkers and endless houseguests.  I'm not anti-social, I'm just pro-quiet".  And you know when you read something and you're nodding so hard, and you're just like, "Yes, that"?  So, I'm really happy to see people just as long as they go, as long as they leave! 

Helen Tupper: Some of the WhatsApp messages that Sarah and I have about social situations, in all kinds of ways, are very interesting and never to be shared outside of our WhatsApps!  So, we have got three ideas for action now, which we have definitely tried and tested these.  So, they're very much things that have worked for us in kind of managing this balance.  And I think what we're trying to say is, you might probably not have the sort of partnership where you've got somebody that you work with as closely as Sarah and I do, who's your opposite, but you can sort of spot people who might have a slightly different preference to you and use these ideas for action to work better together. 

Sarah Ellis: So, idea for action one we're calling "you/me/we".  And the first stage of this idea is to identify key categories where you think your differences might show up.  So, this could be as a project group, this could be kind of one-to-one, so like me and Helen talking about this together, you could do this as a team.  So, the three that Helen and I came up with were relationships, thinking styles, and how we progress projects.  Probably quite universal, so at least I'd imagine two of those three will be helpful for most people.  You also might have some other ones that we've not thought of.  And the idea here is that you sort of give everybody the opportunity to do, "Well, what does that mean for you?" in terms of like, so let's take "thinking style".  So, if I said to Helen, "So, Helen, how do you like to think things through?"  You'd say…?

Helen Tupper: "Out loud, with others, very quickly". 

Sarah Ellis: And then I would say, "Okay, that's really interesting.  What that looks like for me is time by myself, not being put on the spot, being quite reflective, and then sharing when I'm ready".  So, already you can hear, listeners, there's relatively high levels of difference there.  So, we've done the you/me bit.  So, then you move on to the we, which is the benefit of us working together and bringing our difference.  So, the we is the benefit of us then working together.  And try finishing a statement that starts with, "Together, we will be able to..."  So let's say, for example, Helen and I are working on a podcast topic idea, and we're trying to figure out, is this going to be useful for our listeners?  What we could say there is, "Together, we will be able to make sure we really think it through properly, that the research is there, really make sure it connects with our insights, with what we're here to do, because that's what I would bring.  I would ask and answer lots of questions of myself in my own brain without talking to anyone else". 

Helen Tupper: So true!

Sarah Ellis: "Whereas Helen would put that idea on Instagram and LinkedIn within a minute, and she'll get loads of live feedback".  And so then together, we've got all of those different data points that helps us to figure out almost, we get both quickness and quality to then go, is that a good podcast topic; is that something we should move forward on?  And so there, it's just a really specific example of how actually we are we are sort of better together.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and I really see that on the other things, so like on relationships for example, we have a better range of relationships, because Sarah has those people that we can make the big asks of because she's really invested in them deeply, and then I have just really random people that we can go and ask about, "Oh, I met this person at an event two weeks ago.  Let's tap that up".  And the way that we progress projects is I think because Sarah's naturally reflective, she's thinking through the implications of everything, the longer-term outcomes.  And because I'm just like, "Oh, I've seen this, why don't we give it a go?  Let's try it this week", you get quite a lot of pace and quick things from me, whereas you get the big wins from Sarah.  So, I see this all the time, but I think you have to have that conversation together.  I think that's the key bit, like what's you, what's me, and where's the we benefit in it? 

Idea for action number two is to notice what works.  And I want to start with a risk here.  So, I think the risk of this could be that you might look at other people and think, "I need to be more like them".  So, I might be thinking, "Oh gosh, Sarah's amazing.  She is; fact.  I need to be more --"

Sarah Ellis: Thanks!

Helen Tupper: It's all right, I'll give you that.  It's the end of a long day, everybody, everyone needs some positive reinforcement.  But I might be thinking, "Oh, I need to be more like Sarah in order to like, I need to just get rid of all of my extroversion and all of my Helen-ness, and I just need to be like Sarah".  And equally, Sarah as an introvert might think, "Oh, in order to succeed in this, I need to become an extrovert".  And we've talked about this before at the start of our careers.  Sarah, I remember when you were going into that sales role in early careers and you thought you had to be more like an extrovert and lose yourself and be more like that in order to succeed. 

Sarah Ellis: I think I thought that for quite a long time.  I think it took me quite a long time to let go of the sort of extrovert, maybe sometimes expectations, and I think I worked for quite a few extrovert leaders.  So, you can't help but sort of be what you see. 

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: And so, because I'd got those aspirations and those ambitions, I was like, "Oh well, if I want to do those kind of roles with that scale of impact, then I need to look and feel and sound a bit like that".  But inevitably, as soon as I let go of that, I was way better at my job. 

Helen Tupper: Well, that's the thing.  I think the problem with trying to turn yourself into somebody else is that it doesn't really make you very happy, and it doesn't make you as effective as you can be.  I remember when I used to work at Capital One, which was an organisation that I loved working in, but I would say that the profile of the person that succeeded was quite different to me, because they really valued these analytical deep thinkers, who I would say orientated much more towards introversion.  These are statisticians and analysts, they're like the super-brains, and trying to be like them would have made me very unhappy and probably very ineffective as well.  So, what we're trying to say is to notice what works.  So, in these situations that you're in, it could be a project, it could be the culture of the company, you're not trying to copy somebody else, but you are trying to notice what works. 

So, let's say I'm in an organisation, there's more people like Sarah than me, for example, I might be thinking like, "What is it that Sarah does brilliantly?"  And I think that's a really good question to ask because you're really seeing someone's strengths in that situation.  So, I might be like, "It's the way she pauses before she contributes her thinking, or it's the way that she reflects at the end of a meeting".  Whatever it is, I'm going to be very, very intentional about noticing what works.  And the idea is that you're adding that on to how you work.  So, rather than sort of taking me away, I'm not trying to be less extrovert, I'm not trying to be less Helen, I'm just trying to add on some of the brilliant things that Sarah does.  And then you're sort of just being yourself, but a bit better for that situation, rather than losing bits of yourself in the process. 

Sarah Ellis: So, idea for action number three, we're calling "be on the lookout", and we came up with this thought and then realised that neither of us really did it.  So, this is probably an action for both of us because we think this would be something that's really useful and we were both like, "Oh, yeah, we don't really we don't really make this happen".  So, the reason we've called this "be on the lookout" is we want you to look proactively for chances and opportunities to share your introversion, extroversion skills, because some of these things are traits but most of those traits then translate into skills for the benefit of other people.  And I think we probably all do this to some extent, reactively, accidentally, just through the course of our everyday doing our jobs, but this is about being much more proactive and intentional. 

So, if you said to me, "Okay, so you like to really think things through and you're reflective and you're good at kind of asking and answering questions of yourself, have you thought about how and when that could be useful for the rest of the Amazing If team?"  I would be like, "No".  So, I've not.  I don't think I have deconstructed the sort of skills that I've ended up with, the kind of learnt skills that I've got better at, partly because of my personality, and then gone, "Who else, when else, where else could those things be useful?" and then be really kind of generous in going, "Oh, well this is a project that feels quite complex or where we're going to need to do some deep thinking.  I've got some helpful skills here, maybe I can make some suggestions, maybe I can help to upskill some other people in the team". 

Helen Tupper: And I kind of think I know that I can create a quick community around an idea that we've got, to get some insights or to test something, and I think I could really help someone.  I've never thought about it before, but I was having a conversation with a friend last week.  He's launching something, it's quite early days of it, and actually, if I'd thought about it, if I'd been more on the lookout, I could have said, "Tell me three things that you're a bit worried about or three bits of support you need".  I could just create a little WhatsApp group of three or four people that I would think could be of help, and I'd be like, "Look, why don't we get a WhatsApp group?  They'll be able to give you some really quick ideas and recommendations that might get you started".  That is really easy and energising for me to do, but because I think I wasn't on the lookout, I hadn't thought how could my extroversion help that person; I just didn't suggest it.  It's only, "I will do that after".  After this podcast, I'm going to get in touch with that person and be like, "I was thinking about you whilst I was talking to Sarah, and I might be able to help in a way that I hadn't thought through". 

Sarah Ellis: I guess what this is, is essentially creating a positive bias towards sharing what you know.  So, we always say in Squiggly Careers, "We should all share what we know so everyone can succeed, rather than keep these things to ourselves". 

Helen Tupper: Well, I think it's less about what you know.  I think it's a positive bias towards helping people with your preference.  Some of these things aren't all knowledge.  It's that you prefer to think things through and so you're kind of going off, "I'm going to have a positive bias to help people with my preference being an introvert", then how are you -- I don't know, some of it's a talent, some of it's a skill, some of it's just more of a preference.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, though I guess to do it effectively, because I'm now thinking if I'm actually going to do this; to do it effectively, you've got almost translate.  Because a preference, I think you often don't think that -- because almost, it is part of who I am now, you know, and as long as you're comfortable with it, it's part of your identity.  So, you're essentially taking something that's more maybe personality, identity, preference, and you are going to have to do a bit of work of turning it into, "Well then practically, what might that look like for other people?" 

So, one example you gave me when we were testing this idea, and believably we do test these ideas before we talk about them, you said to me, "Oh, well naturally I'm good at doing introductions".  So, introductions, because you know lots of people, you can do lots of introductions.  So, that's almost like one of those things that you've got to give based on -- your extroversion means that you can give lots of creating connections, creating introductions.  So, I think I almost need to go through that process of going, "Well, what do those preferences and personality traits then mean in terms of what I've got to give?" and then be on the lookout for, "Who am I going to give them to, when I'm going to give them".  Sounds like lots of work to do, basically! 

Helen Tupper: But hopefully, like when we talked about at the beginning, what does this look like for you, that very first question, so I identify as an extrovert, what does that look like for me?  Or what does Sarah see in me as an extrovert?  I think those are some of the things that you can go, like Sarah said, "Oh, Helen puts energy into a room".  So, what does that mean that I've got to give?  I've got, you know, if someone wants to start something off, I've got a lot of energy, I could kind of create that in a room.  But I do think it is really, what have I got to give based on my preference?  And there'll be loads, there'll be absolutely loads.  And if you're struggling, because that could be quite a daunting question, I think, ask other people like, "What are the strengths that you see in me?" you'll get to some of those insights.  But that then might help you to connect the dots when you're sort of on the lookout for how you can help people. 

Sarah Ellis: So, we hope that's been useful for all you introverts and you extroverts, equally important extroverts out there.  If you have any other ideas, tools or techniques that you've seen have worked really well in your experience, or something that perhaps you've learnt that you'd like to share with our listeners, you can get in touch with us at any time.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  We also love to hear from you your ideas, so what would you like us to cover in the podcast?  Or, if there's any experts you'd particularly like us to approach to interview as part of our Ask the Experts series, let us know that too. 

Helen Tupper: And all of those ideas for action that we talked about will be summarised in the PodSheet.  So, you can find that on our website, amazingif.com, or on the show notes.  And if you ever can't find anything, just give us an email. 

Sarah Ellis: So, that's everything for this week.  Back with you again soon, but bye for now. 

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.