Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:00:53: Feedback and learning
00:03:41: Three stops and starts…
00:06:38: … 1: ad hoc vs always on
00:12:18: … 2: strengths vs weaknesses
00:21:28: … 3: outsourcing vs owning
00:27:48: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Each week, we take a different topic to do with work and share some ideas and actions that we hope to help you navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control. 

Helen Tupper: And it might be one of the first normal episodes that you have listened to, because perhaps you joined the world of Squiggly Careers for the Videobook Club.  And if so, this is what we've been doing for about 450 episodes. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, we're back!

Helen Tupper: Before the Videobook Club, there was this weekly show.  So, I hope you've enjoyed the Videobook club.  What we will now do is tackle one of those topics that Sarah talked about, and share some insights and advice that we hope will help you to take action.  And today's topic is all about feedback.  It's something we've covered before, but today we want to talk about some practices that we might need to stop in order for feedback to happen, and some things that we can start doing instead.  So, it's the feedback stops and starts. 

Sarah Ellis: And our framing when we think about feedback, and this is something that actually we often do a lot of work with the companies that we spend time with, is how can you approach feedback in a way that puts learning first?  And I think if we're always asking that question, it really helps us with what we need to unlearn and relearn for feedback to really work, because I think we all know feedback is important, and I think it is a classic knowing-doing gap when it comes to learning.  Everybody says they either want more feedback or they wish they had more feedback or they maybe recognise the importance of giving feedback, but then it just feels too hard and there's things that get in the way.  And so today, we're going to talk about some of those things and say, "Well, if we were going to stop doing these things, what would we start doing instead?" 

Helen Tupper: I was just thinking, we had our team meeting earlier today and someone in our team was talking about a programme that we were watching, where someone was getting some feedback in a kitchen, and they were getting some critical feedback about something.  And the person giving the feedback apologised and said, "Oh, I'm sorry, I'm giving you all this as feedback".  And the person receiving the feedback said, "Don't worry, I'm here to learn".  And I think that statement and that mindset, it's not always easy when we're getting some of these messages, but I think if you are approaching it with that, "I'm here to learn", mindset, it is a lot easier to take the information that people are sharing and see the insight, see the learning in that. 

Sarah Ellis: I guess the problem with feedback sometimes is the word itself.  So, you might be listening and just be like, "Oh, there's just too much fear around feedback".  And sometimes we will talk about feedback as instead being perspectives.  Some of the companies use that word instead.  Or, I think Helen and I will often describe it as, "Feedback's just data for your development.  It's just insights that you can choose how to action".  I remember Helen and I once running a big workshop with lots of people in a room, and we asked everybody to come up with their own definitions of feedback like, "How would you describe this in a really simple and straightforward way that would work in your organisation?"  And somebody did say, "Insightful actions".  They coupled together like insights that help you to take action.  And I remember thinking, "Oh, yeah, if all of the feedback that we asked for, that we received, had insights that you could then put into action or even inaction, but you understood them well enough to be able to make that choice, I always feel like that would be a good place to start". 

Helen Tupper: And I also think sometimes, I hear something and think it's feedback and then I reflect on it and I'm like, "Oh no, that was just you just venting at me", or something like that!  You know when you think about, "Well, what's that insight that helps me to take action?"  On reflection, I go, "Well, that wasn't insight that's going to help me take action, that was you saying something in that situation".  But then, I don't have to attach myself to that.  I think looking at feedback like this has made me actually a little bit more considered about what I spend time thinking about after someone has shared some information.

Sarah Ellis: So, we've got three stops that we're going to talk about.  We're going to talk about stopping feedback being ad hoc or occasional; stopping worrying about only weaknesses, which I reckon we all do because loads of us are our own worst critic; and stop outsourcing feedback.  And so, for each of those stops, we're going to talk about what a start would be, and then we're going to do our best to bring it to life in a really practical way.  What would that sound like?  When might we do this?  How would we do it?  Whether that is you doing this individually, or whether it might be something you want to try out as a team, or best-case scenario, we're all committing to it as a habit, as part of how we all work in an organisation.  But appreciating, I think, that can feel hard.  And in my experience actually, when I've seen feedback done really well, it's not always had to be absolutely everybody subscribes to this from day one; it can be a couple of people or a small team or a function or a department who start doing this really well, start role-modelling this really well, and I think it does often act a bit like osmosis.

So, I do appreciate that feedback can sometimes feel like, "Oh, this is quite hard to do by myself, if no one else around me is also on board".  But I think there is a way, with all of these, I think there is a way that you can take control for your own career development, even if you maybe feel like your organisation isn't up for this yet. 

Helen Tupper: So, of those three things, so the stopping ad hoc, stopping worrying about your weaknesses, and stopping outsourcing feedback, which is the one that feels like the biggest focus area for you? 

Sarah Ellis: I think for me, it would be the ad hoc one.  And I think I do take accountability for this in our organisation as a whole.  I still feel like feedback in Amazing If is quite ad hoc.  I think the flow of feedback could be increased.  And I think we have made one small change actually this year, which I hope might help that, and I'm actually already seeing that change, so I'll talk about that.  But I hope that that's the first of many, because I think when something is ad hoc, you're relying on yourself to remember.  And because it isn't something that's built in, it's not added into how you're working, the expectation then to be able to kind of do that is just what makes it harder, that you're making life harder rather than easier for yourself.  So, I think for me it's the ad hoc one.  What about you? 

Helen Tupper: In Amazing If, I'd agree, it's ad hoc.  That's probably the thing that I would most need to change in order to improve the flow of feedback, for me personally as well.  But I think in big companies, it was the outsourcing.  So, if I think back to, like, Microsoft -- and the reason I think was, well, I knew there was a process.  I knew at some point it would be feedback would be forced upon me as part of the process.  But then, I think I used the busy excuse quite a lot.  I was so busy being busy that I thought, "Well, I've not got time for feedback, and so I'll just wait for the annual process to force it upon me".  That's probably changed a little bit now, I think because we are so pacey and we build it in a little bit into the work that we do, that doesn't feel like my issue, but it definitely was in big-company land. 

Sarah Ellis: So, let's take the first stop, which is, "Stop feedback being ad hoc", and we would say, "Start making it always on".  And I think there are a couple of principles here to bear in mind.  The first one is, as I mentioned briefly just a moment ago, how can you add feedback into what you already do, rather than feeling like it's an add-on?  And the second, probably a slightly more practical question, because that's more of a principle, but I think a practical question that often people find helpful in workshops, is I just ask a 'when' question.  I am very on board with a when question these days.  And the reason I like when questions is, it prompts everyone, including myself, to be specific.  If I can't pinpoint when this action is going to be part of how we work, it's a really good way, actually, of spotting a gap.  It's almost spotting that you've got a knowing-doing gap before it even happens. 

So, if you're going to make it much more of a ritual or a regular habit, the thing that I would start with is, "When are all the meetings and moments I already have in my week, when I could add feedback in?"  So, if you just started with your diary or your calendar, it could be things like team meetings, it could be one-to-ones, it could be project meetings.  Look for those recurring meetings that sometimes get on our nerves, but those can be really good moments.  Look at those things that are quite predictable.  Anything that you've got that you feel happens quite frequently, is there an opportunity to add feedback into those moments in quite an easy way.  I think we are looking for easy actions here.  It's not like you're going to turn a one-to-one with your manager into a feedback conversation every time.  I think we are talking here about asking your manager maybe one feedback question in a one-to-one, not turning the whole conversation into feedback. 

I think that's sometimes, again, what stops us from doing this.  We kind of build it up as this really formal thing that almost then dominates the discussion and is going to get in the way of all the other work that everyone needs to get done.  Whereas I think we're actually talking here about like small tweaks that can actually make quite a significant difference. 

Helen Tupper: These are, as Sarah said, they're simple questions and we'll include some of them in the PodSheet so that you can copy and paste them into your meetings.  But it could be me saying to Sarah, "Oh, can I just get some fast feedback from you?  What do you think I'm doing well at the moment in terms of my contact with the team?  And what do you think would be 'even better if' that I could be a bit more intentional about for our next couple of meetings?"  And then, just get a little bit of feedback from Sarah in that moment.  Sometimes, you might want to send that to people in advance.  So, I might say to Sarah, "Oh, in our meeting later on, I'd love to get a bit of fast feedback.  Two questions on my mind are..."  So, it's still in the same meeting, but I've just given Sarah a bit of a heads-up.  I think that very much depends on the person that you're asking.  Like, Sarah would probably always benefit from a little bit of time to think, because you would always want to give me a really considered answer; whereas you can generally put me on the spot and I'll be able to think quickly.  But we'll include some other questions.  

But yeah, I think the adding-in thing are quick questions that you can ask people, they don't feel too difficult for them to respond to, they don't require a huge amount of preparation and really, the more the better, because the more of these quick questions you ask, the more data you'll collect for your development, and the more themes that you'll start to spot. 

Sarah Ellis: And in the words that Helen was using there, things like even saying, "Can I ask for some fast feedback?" you've framed it.  So, I think our top tip here would also be around when you're asking or kind of giving feedback, frame it in a way that makes it kind of easier and more in the moment.  So, rather than going, "Oh, what was good about our meeting today?"  So, Helen and I did have a team meeting today.  So, I could just say to Helen, "What do you think was good about today's team meeting?"  What would be much easier for Helen to answer is if I said to her, "Well, what do you think was the best thing about our team meeting today?  And what's the one change you'd make for next time?  Helen could probably do that right now, because I've put a one in there.  So, I've made it easier.  We don't need to get reams and reams of data.  I'm like, some data is better than no data.  I think most the time we're not getting it.

The risk here, I suppose, the stick more than the carrot, is that if we do do this in an ad hoc way, the quality of that feedback is so much worse.  Because we've got these patchy, inaccurate memories, typically if you wait for feedback, what you get from people is a lot of recency bias because that's just what's front of mind for people, and it's not going to help you to paint a picture of then what you could do differently or what you could keep doing to really increase your impact.  Often, like the usefulness, I always think for feedback and for anything we do, there's a usefulness scale.  And the more ad hoc feedback is, I think the further down the usefulness scale it goes; the more frequent it is, almost like little and often, that's often how you kind of get better.  So, I think anything that you can do to just think, "How can I just make this really easy?  How can I frame it?"  Fast feedback, like you even said the word, 'quick' there, quick questions.

Helen Tupper: Quick questions, fast feedback.  I think your framing and the format of feedback is really important for this one.  So, Sarah talked about framing.  Second thing on format, this doesn't always have to wait for a meeting to happen.  This could happen over, you know, if you use something like Teams Chat, or whatever you're using at work, it could do that.  We've done it on WhatsApp.  But really think about, "Where am I already talking to this person, and how could this be the place where the feedback happens?" rather than that kind of very ad hoc thing, we tend to get into the wait mode for feedback, "I'll wait until I'm together in person with my manager or when we've got a spare five minutes".  I mean, whoever has a spare five minutes? 

Sarah Ellis: I always find as well, if I wait, I just don't do it.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, of course.  It's all these reasons, particularly if you've got some confidence gremlins about feedback, they're just going to grow.  The longer you wait, I think the bigger the gremlins get.

Sarah Ellis: So, our second one is, "Stop worrying only about weaknesses and start diving deeper into your strengths, but also help other people dive into their strengths too".  I think really natural that we worry about weaknesses.  We're our own worst critics, we've got that natural negativity bias that already means we reflect and process the things that go wrong more than the things that go right.  Often, when you even hear the word feedback, I think people even make that assumption, "What do I need to get better at?  What have I got to improve?"  That's often naturally where people go to.  And sometimes, when you talk to people about delivering feedback, they don't think about delivering all types of feedback.  What they are thinking is, "Well, how do I have a difficult conversation?  How do I deliver a hard-to-hear message about something that someone might not be as good at?"  And so again, I think we're sometimes forgetting that actually the most opportunity we have for growth and to be brilliant and to have impact is always in our strengths.  It's like making our strengths stronger is kind of better for everyone.

We aren't suggesting you ignore weaknesses.  I don't think you do ignore weaknesses, but I just think it's kind of this unlearning and relearning around, what is feedback for?  And if it is to help us learn and grow, if feedback puts learning first, you're probably giving a lot more feedback on what someone does well than you are on someone's weaknesses.  If you were thinking about it in percentage terms, there's no right answer to this, people sometimes say 5 to 1, don't they?  They go, "Five pieces of strengths-based feedback for every 'even better if' or opportunity to improve".  I just think the point here is that we assume people can see their strengths, and most of the time I just don't think people do.  I think people are tough on themselves.  So, we can help people to have confidence in where they're great, and then they can do more in that and then they can grow more as a result.

Helen Tupper: I think the model that most helps me with this one, like almost visualise this, is a really old model.  It's the Johari window. 

Sarah Ellis: I like the old Johari windows. 

Helen Tupper: I know.  We learnt this at uni such a long time ago.

Sarah Ellis: We did.  But it's like an oldie but a goodie.

Helen Tupper: It is. 

Sarah Ellis: Whereas lots of the other ones are not good anymore. 

Helen Tupper: You just pass it by.  Again, we'll put it in the PodSheet, but if you've not come across the model, it's a matrix, I love a matrix, and it's about, if we use strengths as what we're going to put into this model, you have what strengths are known to you and what strengths are not known to you, and then you have what strengths are known to other people and not known to other people.  And the idea is, we want to make the open box the big box, and this is where a strength is known to you and it is known to other people too.  We want to make that box as big as possible so you're really clear and confident about your strengths, and you might get that by getting some strengths-based feedback.  So, I'd say to Sarah, "When do you see me at my best?"  That would help me to know a bit more.  And also, other people know what your strengths are as well, and you get that by showing up with your strengths, stretching them into new situations. 

The bigger you can make that box, the better it will be for your impact at work and to be honest, your engagement at work as well, because you're using the stuff that gives you energy.  And if we're focusing on our weaknesses, we're not getting strengths-based feedback from other people, that box will just be smaller.  So, I always think, "Make the box bigger!" and that's better for everyone; better for you, better for the people that you're working with too.  

Sarah Ellis: And a model that doesn't work, which I always think everyone knows, but do you know what?  I test this and sometimes people are still surprised.  It's, get rid of that feedback sandwich as a way of delivering messages around strengths and weaknesses.  So, the feedback sandwich is, "I'm going to talk to Helen about today's team meeting.  I'm going to tell her something good, something bad, and then something good again, probably in the hope that that makes it easier to hear and maybe easier for me to deliver".  But obviously, all that happens when we do that, 99% of the time, is people ignore all the good stuff, they fixate on the weaknesses.  You might have actually really meant the good stuff, but that's got lost.  So, that was a waste of time almost giving that data.  And also, it can feel a bit manipulative, it can feel like you're trying to hide it.  And in all of Helen and I's research, we have never found any support for that working as a way of delivering. 

One of the things that I think is often useful to remember is strengths and weaknesses feedback don't need to go together.  I think it is almost better, starting to connect the dots between what we're talking about first, better to have one bit of 'even better if' feedback at once, and just have the confidence and the clarity to just be really simple and straightforward about it.  And the same with strengths feedback.  I think people sometimes feel a bit apologetic about just asking for feedback on their strengths or just giving someone feedback on their strengths.  They almost feel like, "I must find something that isn't quite as good".  You're don't have to!  And on strengths feedback, one of the things that we often recommend is this idea of 'brilliant because'.  So, go beyond just positive praise and just add that 'because', add the 'why' behind the 'well done'.  It takes you 30 seconds more and actually just brings to life for somebody what is it that they've done that's been so great.  And we always love the 'three words' exercise, so, "What three words would you use to describe me at my best?"  And often, when people get that data back, sometimes there's surprises because maybe they have got those blind spots that Helen described.  Maybe it gives them confidence that they're doing things they want to do.  Or maybe it just makes them realise that actually they've got some gaps or some strengths they want people to see, that other people are not seeing at the moment. 

I do really like strengths feedback as team exercises actually as well, because I think it's a really uplifting, positive thing to do as a group.  So, you could go round, if you've got a smallish team, and go, "I see you at your best when..."  Like, everybody could go round and just do that.  You could put posts on the wall.  So, you could put everybody's name around the wall, and everyone writes the three words for that person.  So, all of you get loads of words all at the same time.  Also, maybe that's quite nice to do it in a sort of, you're moving around, you're on your feet, not quite as intense, like doing the eye-contact thing.  I think that would be really nice as well to see not just your own words, but to see all of the really positive words from everybody else. 

Helen Tupper: I have a slightly random version of that.  I think yours works much better, you know, a Post-it note, you're all in that room together.  I had a slightly weirder version of that on a course once, where there was about 12 people on the course, and you'd been together for a week on the course, and it was on a Friday, and individually each person got sent out of the room and then everybody had to talk about that person for about ten minutes and write on a flipchart basically all the brilliant things they'd seen.  So, it was all positive.  But that ten minutes. 

Sarah Ellis: Were you sitting there, just tense?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, really tense.  And obviously, you knew it was just going to be good stuff because you had done that for the other 11 people in that room, so you knew there's nothing really to worry about.  But sitting in there… and it was walking back in the room and they're like, "Here's your gift, here's your giant flipchart with words", and then you took it home with you!  What do I do with it?  So, that was a bit weird.  I prefer your suggestion of, we're in a room, we've got Post-it notes --

Sarah Ellis: We're all doing it at the same time.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  And then, I think you can cluster as well, which could be really interesting, like look at your clusters.

Sarah Ellis: You could go to your own board and you could do your own clustering, couldn't you?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, look at clusters.

Sarah Ellis: I think that'd be nice.  I had a version of what you've just described actually.  Maybe this is formal courses for you!  When I did that programme over at Harvard, because you lived with the people that you were doing the programme with, it was a bigger programme but you lived with like five or six people, and they were your group for the week you were doing case studies with.  And at the end, they wrote you a letter, but everybody contributed to the letter.  So, it'd be like, "Sarah, it's been a joy or a pleasure", they wouldn't have probably said this, "spending time with you".  I'm literally having to make it up because I'm thinking they probably would never have said that.

Helen Tupper: Have you still got the letter?

Sarah Ellis: I have!

Helen Tupper: Oh!

Sarah Ellis: As somebody who didn't keep their baby scans, it is weird I have kept that letter. 

Helen Tupper: But you kept a letter about yourself!  I love it!

Sarah Ellis: I mean, you know when you need to really keep your ego in check?!  It doesn't make me sound good.  But yeah, I'm not very nostalgic and I don't keep very much.  But that, I did keep, because it just felt like they'd really thought about it and they'd really thought about me.  And I was like, "Oh, I feel like they've also put quite a lot of effort".  So, I do remember keeping that.  And then, you read them and then you had to send a letter to yourself.  They posted it for you and it arrived six weeks later, and it was kind of you giving yourself a motivational speech. 

Helen Tupper: "I am good!" 

Sarah Ellis: "I am good!"  I think I have actually still got that as well!  And it does say something like, "You are good, you can do these things", because I think I got quite a lot of imposter syndrome when I went to Harvard being like, "Oh my God, everyone's going to be so much smarter than me".  And I was like, I mean that sort of is true, some of them were incredibly smart.  But it was also fine, I was smart enough, and I could still contribute and it was okay.  It's kind of like that feel-good folder that some people have, don't they?  I do think about where you're going to put this feedback.  So, you know when you've received it?  What we have both just talked about is, having somewhere that you can go back to or refer to in those moments where maybe you are doubting yourself, or those gremlins do creep in, could be quite useful.  And I hadn't taken it quite as far as that.  

But actually, when we've talked about it, what's funny about those experiences that we've described is they were actually really memorable, because it's something that's really stuck with us.  And I do occasionally go back.  Usually, we've done something for work and I'm keeping some sort of work memorabilia. 

Helen Tupper: I have a work memorabilia box! 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I know, so do I!  Mine's mainly got cups in it.  We just have a lot of cups from our career, it's so weird.

Helen Tupper: We won't go there.

Sarah Ellis: So, in my cup memorabilia box, which is what I've got, they are in there.  It does remind me.  Maybe it's helpful to have that data in of one place, so maybe think about what that might be. 

Helen Tupper: And so, our final stop is to stop outsourcing feedback.  And what we would want you to do is to start owning your feedback.  So, we tend to outsource feedback when we rely on a manager making it happen, or maybe it's an internal process, like the annual feedback cycle, and we don't take any personal responsibility for feedback outside of those times.  So, we're not thinking about it in the year, we're not proactively collecting it, we're just really in wait mode.  And that affects us in two main ways really.  It means that we miss out on a lot of information that could help us gain more insight about ourselves and our performance and improve our impact in different areas; but I also think, when we are in that outsourcing mode, that we don't develop the skills, we don't develop feedback skills --

Sarah Ellis: You're not practising.

Helen Tupper: -- we don't have these range of questions, we don't have the confidence to ask different people.  I really think it's a bit of a career catch-22, like until you start doing this more frequently and owning it, you can't develop the confidence.  So, if you're stuck in this cycle of outsourcing feedback, it will continually hold you back in your career.  I think that's the biggest issue.  And you can take action.  There are lots of simple ways that we'll talk through now that you can really start owning your feedback.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I think if you are a bit stuck about where to get started with owning your feedback, I would look at your week and think, where do you have the most control?  Maybe meetings that you facilitate or that you're running, projects that you're in charge of, anything that you lead.  I'd look at my own roles and responsibilities and think, "Okay, well, it doesn't matter what job you're doing or what career stage you're at, we all have something which we own".  So, I would maybe not start with owning feedback, I'd be like, "Well, what do I own at work?  Oh, I own this process, I own that project".  And then I would start to think, "Because I own this bit, that's the easiest place to start, rather than waiting for this feedback or expecting other people to give me that feedback".  If I was going to be really proactive rather than passive, what would I do?  And I think that is where having a couple of tools can be useful.  It's okay saying that, like, "I'll be more proactive".  You're like, "How do I do that?" 

Certainly, we used this at Sainsbury's, we use it all the time now, so we do use, 'what worked well, 'even better if', or 'what's working well, even better if'.  That has stuck, loads of companies we work with have used that.  That is balancing out both the good and the 'even better ifs'.  I think that often works really well to get started because it's not very personal.  So, if Helen and I today were like, there's a difference between me saying to Helen, "What did Helen do well at today's team meeting", versus going, "Let's do 'what worked well, even better if' for today's team meeting".  It's outside of us as individuals.  And so, when Helen talked about practising, doing things that aren't too personal, that are more about systems or processes, can just build up your confidence, also means that you can do it as a group, and also easy for everybody to have a go.  If we all did one 'what worked well', one 'even better if', usually most people can do that. 

The other thing that Helen and I were talking about is, and Helen and I do this actually, sometimes we will write them down first rather than being influenced by what's gone before you.  If we all wrote down one 'even better if' or one 'what worked well' and then you get everybody to say them, people are definitely saying their reflections.  And then you'll see, are there loads of similarities or actually are there are loads of differences?  So, I think I've found that, of all the tools that I've used, that has been the one that's stuck the most, plus people turning positive praise probably into strengths-based feedback.  Most people get the, rather than just saying 'well done', tell people the 'why' behind the 'well done', give people the 'brilliant because', because often there is a moment in our week where we are saying to someone, "Oh, great job", and it's quite easy to turn that into strengths-based feedback. 

Helen Tupper: I think the thing that helped me with the flip from the outsourcing it, waiting for the process, to the owning it, was I realised that outsourcing it actually created a bit more worry for me, because then, I was waiting for it.  I was like, "Oh, Sarah's going to say something about this presentation or session, or whatever, or my manager".  I'd be worried about it because I was just waiting for the inevitable bit of feedback that I didn't want to hear.  Whereas as soon as you start owning it, it means you're asking for it.  So, I choose who I ask, I choose when I ask, I choose how many people I ask, and suddenly I'm more in control.  It doesn't mean every message that you hear is what you want to hear, it doesn't mean that, but it does mean that I just feel much more in control of the conversation.  And so, I worry about it far less now because I'm just much more proactive about asking it.  So, I think that's been a real reframe of like, "Well, why bother doing this?"  It's just easier and you have more control over the conversations when you own it.

Sarah Ellis: And I think when you own feedback, it's a good reminder that you have a choice about what to do with the feedback that you receive.  I think this is a really fine line because we do want to be open to listening to people's perspectives.  Sometimes feedback will surprise us, it doesn't mean that it's wrong.  But sometimes people will give you feedback and you'll think, "That doesn't feel right for me, that doesn't connect with who I am and how I want to show up".  So, when you start owning feedback, you remind yourself, "I've got a choice.  It is ultimately up to me whether I choose to change".  I might decide to go and talk to some other people first.  So, if it has been a surprise, is that one person's point of view or is it actually ten people's point of view or five people's point of view?  Is this something that I want to do differently, or actually is somebody giving me feedback that maybe reflects more who they are?  I've definitely had that before from people like, "Be more like I am", and you'll think, "Yes, but I'm not you".

Helen Tupper: "I'm not you"!

Sarah Ellis: So, it's really hard for me to do that.  And then, I think people sometimes can be really good at getting more feedback, but then get a bit waylaid or a bit confused even by going, "Oh, but I'm not sure what to do and this doesn't feel quite right".  But if you're in control of it, you go, "Oh, okay, it's just insight.  I can choose about action or inaction".  We've got to be really careful, I think, it doesn't give us permission to just ignore it.  We always want to hold ourselves accountable for continuing to learn and grow, but it does mean that you can sometimes go, "I don't have to put everything into action straight away.  I have got choices here", and we all feel better when we are more in control. 

Helen Tupper: So, what we'll do is we'll put those three feedback stops and starts in the PodSheet, and we'll include some questions that you can take into your conversations and you can add into your meetings.  But I think the main thing is for you to maybe experiment with some of these things.  I don't think feedback gets magically better overnight.  It's small things that we do that help us to feel a bit more confident about adding this into our conversation.  So, the sooner you get started maybe experimenting with some of the things, the better. 

Sarah Ellis: That's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening, and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.