Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:23: Irrational decisions
00:04:13: Decision to leave work
00:07:42: "Try before you apply"

00:10:00: Lack of investment in self-development
00:13:18: Dan's career advice
00:17:07: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi everyone, it is Helen and you're listening to the fourth and final week of the Squiggly Careers Videobook Club.  And actually, today is the final episode, but there's still a little bit more learning to go this week.  So, make sure you join into the LinkedIn conversation that we've got going on tomorrow, and also make sure that you look at the Friday insights into actions so that you can take everything you've been learning and you could do something different with it.  So, today, what are we talking about?  Well, you're going to hear me talk to Dan Ariely about his videobook, Predictably Irrational.  And what I talk about with Dan is when, in our career, are we most likely to bring this kind of irrationality into our decision-making and what can we do about it.  I think one of the things that really sticks with me actually in the conversation is when he talks about being a prisoner of your past decisions, and that actually we almost need to be a bit more neutral.  When we're looking at choices in our career, we need to be a bit more neutral so that we can make better decisions.  You'll hear us talk about it, but it's definitely something that I have reflected on quite a lot since this conversation with Dan.  So, no more spoilers, let's get into it.

Dan, welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.

Dan Ariely: Lovely to be here. 

Helen Tupper: We're going to talk about careers and decision-making, and we're going to dive into Dan's book, Predictably Irrational, which is our videobook focus for the week.  So, I'm going to start with a really big question, Dan, what irrational decisions do you think people often make about their careers?

Dan Ariely: So, first of all, let's say something about what are irrational decisions. 

Helen Tupper: Okay. 

Dan Ariely: And irrational does not equal bad.  Many of the irrational decisions are bad, but not all of them.  Irrational decisions are decisions that don't take all the information into account, irrational decisions are not the ones that are self-interested, they are not the ones that maximise long-term wellbeing, those are irrational decisions.  But if we think about what kind of decisions I think people would make most mistakes on, I would say that people would be overly influenced by the salary when they make a decision of where to go.  And the reason would be that if you see two jobs, let's say you have two job offers, the things that are the most salient to you is the salary.  Lots of other things are fuzzy, what does it mean to have loving co-workers; what does it mean to have a good workplace; and so on?  So, people would overemphasize salary and underweight some of the important things that contribute to growth, career development, good collegial relationship, and so on. 

Another one that I would say is I think these days, I think people work too much remotely for their own benefit.  In my research centre, it's a small research centre, but when we were considering moving back to the office after COVID, I did not ask people, "What do you want to do tomorrow?" because I know what people want to do tomorrow.  People got used to their chair and they got used to the coffee, and so on.  I said, "What kind of researcher would you be in five years if you worked only from home?"  And with that data, most people recognise that they will not develop.  You might be more efficient, but the efficiency is coming at the expense of what?  It comes at the expense of social relationship with the people we work with, in caring about them, and from developing. 

So, I think lots of people are not wasting enough of their time.  In the pre-Zoom meetings, we never finished the agenda.  You know, why?  Because we had chit-chat, we learned about things, we had jokes, we cared about people, we learned things on the topic.  You can think of it as a waste of time, but you can think of it as also investment in the future.  And then the last one is that I think people are not courageous enough to leave work when they're not happy.  So, those will be my three. 

Helen Tupper: So, let's talk about the, "People are not courageous enough to leave work when they're not happy".  What is going on there in their head?  Because I think I have been in that position where I thought, "I don't think this is the right place, but maybe I should just stick it out".  So, what's going on in people's head in that moment where they're sort of torn between leaving to do something they love, and staying in a job that they really don't like?

Dan Ariely: So, the point is, staying where we are is not making a decision.  And because we don't make a decision, it is harder to regret.  No, you're not going to say to yourself, "Oh, on 17 January, I decided to stay in this boring job", there's not a day when you decide it.  If you decide to leave, you have a date, "On 12 March, I decide to resign".  And if it doesn't work out well, you'll hit yourself over the head, and we don't like that feeling.  So, what is called the path of least resistance, the default option, the doing nothing, is a big determinant of what to do.  And here is a way to think about it.

So, imagine you're in job A, and you're saying to yourself, "Should I stay in job A, or should I move to job B?"  That way of asking the question is not on equal basis, because A, you have to do nothing, B, you have to do something.  You have to resign, you have to do a new job, you're giving up the known, it's unknown, it might be better, it might be worse.  So, one mental exercise to do this is to say, "Imagine I wasn't at job A right now, imagine I was jobless and I had two job offers.  Which job would I take?"  I'll give you another example for this.  Imagine I went into your stock portfolio tonight and I sold everything.  Tomorrow, you have everything in cash, nothing in stocks.  Would you buy the same exact stocks you have today?  Most people say absolutely not.  That means that some of your stocks are not because you think they're good decisions, it's because you're stuck to them because you're kind of a prisoner of your past decisions.  Putting ourselves in what we call a T-intersection, right, when we are faced right or left.  It helps us understand whether we are keeping ourselves in job A or in marriage A or in stocks, whatever, because of the inertia or because we really want to. 

That's kind of a really important distinction for me, which is to basically be true to ourselves why we're in this position.  If somebody says, "Look, I understand, but I'm going to keep on job A because I'm there and I don't want to take risks".  Fine, I'm not going to argue with you, but at least be aware about this.  So, because of that, people say, "I dislike my job, it's like five on a ten-point scale.  The other job could be eight, but it could be three, I don't know, the average is better.  But I would really feel terrible if it's three".  Yeah, but the average is much better and we don't take enough risk.

Helen Tupper: I like the point about being a prisoner of your past decisions, and that combined with the aversion to risk is why so many people will stay in a job that they are unhappy in.

Dan Ariely: Yeah, and there's all kinds of things people can do.  For example, I don't understand why people don't take vacations and use it to be an intern in a new company.

Helen Tupper: So, Dan, this is something we are actually trying to do more broadly in the world of Squiggly Careers, are like sort of Squiggly Sabbaticals.  So, we think if you can give people the chance to try before they apply, because ladderlike ways of looking at your career are very high commitment.  You find a job and then you're committed and you're a bit stuck in it.  Whereas actually, if you can have more like Squiggly Secondments, a couple of weeks in a job, a try before you apply, then people have much more data to make a decision.  In my mind, you might tell me differently with decision-making, but in my mind, if they've got more insight and awareness, they can make a more informed decision; whereas without that, they're more likely to be swayed by some of the things, like a salary, like you were saying, or a job title, or maybe the allure of a particular person, like a manager or something like that, that could lead to a more irrational decision about a role.

Dan Ariely: So, I'll tell you my way of describing it.  Lots of things in life are about the experience.  And the experience, we just don't have a good language to describe it.  So, imagine I show you a box of some food and you read the ingredients.  Can you understand what the job would feel like?  Can you understand what the food would taste like?  The answer is no.  The list of ingredients, okay, so they have corn and they have this spice.  Maybe you can get a general sense, but you don't really understand what the experience is.  So, jobs, it's kind of crazy when you think about it.  First of all, we don't have the big book of jobs that we sell, it's kind of a random process.  And then, we know very little about the jobs we apply to.  So, it's not so much about intuition and so on, it's about the fact that we have zero understanding of what this is and because of that, we have a very hard time understanding whether what we are good at and we want to get good at would be the right approach.  I very, very much believe that we need the experience.

Helen Tupper: The other thing I wanted to talk to you about was something that I see a lot in my work and I think, "Oh, this is not a rational decision", so I wanted to get your perspective on it.  And that is where people, week after week, prioritise their day job, so doing their day job, over investing in their development.  And so, they will say to me, "Well, Helen, I have no time to learn".  And I'll say, "I understand that day jobs are demanding, but if you don't make time for your development, you're not going to be able to create opportunities outside the one that you've got today".  So, I see this real tension between a decision to prioritise the day job day after day after day, and to never invest in the development.  And I just wondered, I guess it's a short-term, long-term thing that's going on in someone's brain.  And I wanted to get your perspective; and also, how can I, or someone who's listening, help somebody else who might be a bit stuck in this kind of short-term way of thinking that is affecting their long-term development?

Dan Ariely: Yeah, and multiple things are happening at the same time.  So, first of all, we have a tendency to deal with the urgent over the important.  But it's not just that.  We also end up dealing more with things that we get immediate feedback over things that we get delayed feedback.  So, at work, we have commitments and we have deadlines and we have people that we work with, that we care about.  We don't want them to suffer because we were not prepared, and so on.  So, it's urgent over important and it's immediate satisfying somebody rather than doing something that works for the long term.  And the way that work works is that our bosses pile things on us until we collapse.  So, this is a tough challenge.  It's actually an impossible challenge, because something has to give.  We certainly don't want to live a life in which, at the end of life, you say, "How did I live my life?" and you regret staying in this job. 

The literature on regret is really interesting.  In the short term, we end up regretting things that we did compared to things we didn't do.  I think that a mechanism for this is the calendar.  And the calendar in general is not a good tool.  The calendar is a tool that gets us to have too many meetings.  The calendar is a tool that takes our time and breaks it into sections where we can coordinate with other people.  I dislike the calendar as a tool.  It means that we are people who open the calendar and we do what we're told.  So, my first recommendation is schedule time in your calendar for long-term development, invest in yourself, and do it first thing in the morning.  Why do I do it first thing?  It's a time where I can create a ritual that is enjoyable.  If I open my email and I knew all the things I would have to do, it would be there.  I would say, "Oh, so Joe, what do I really need to do?  Yes, I'm trying to work on this, but what…", there's a little voice inside.  So, first thing in the morning with a positive thing and try to do it every day.  Try to do it.

Helen Tupper: And so, one last question to help our listeners.  I would imagine half of our listeners are going into this year and they are thinking about a career change.  They're thinking they want to work in a different team, they want to work in a different business, and you've already shared that kind of one advice to us about that T-way of thinking about decisions.  Is there any other advice that you would share with a listener who is thinking, "This year, I want to do something different", to make that decision, I guess, as rational as possible to caution against some of the things that you know affect the quality of decisions; what advice would you give them?

Dan Ariely: So, I think that every job, people should think of it as another degree.  When I graduated and I looked for my first academic job, one of my advisors said, "Go to the place that you will become the most different person from what you are right now".  And it was kind of interesting.  There were some universities that were a good fit, because I could keep on doing the kind of research I was doing.  And what he told me was, "No, pick a place that would not let you do what you're currently doing, that will force you to change".  And I chose MIT and I was there for a very long time, and I learned a lot.  And I think that because people move so much, careers, and because careers are becoming so interesting and because we end up working for many more years and work life is so fascinating and interesting and there's so many things to do and many people have multiple careers at the same time, I think that you should look at it as not just, "Is this the job I want?" but you should look at, "What kind of skills will I get in this place?" 

So, I think everybody should have a five-year plan, but the five-year plan should be about what kind of skills do I hope to gain?  It shouldn't be in terms of what letters will I have in front of my name, or what's my salary, but what do I want to get better at?  Imagine you write your future CV, but it's in terms of skills.  And then you say, "Which place would give you those skills?"  That I think would be the next.

Helen Tupper: You know, it's super-aligned again with when we talk about Squiggly, we often talk about these Squiggly Swaps, so that when you're climbing ladders, there are certain things that determine your thinking about your development.  So, for example, levels, you know, "What level do I want to get to?"  Whereas we talk about a Squiggly Swap, which is in a Squiggly Career, talk about learning, "What learning do I want for myself?  And I think that's really aligned with the advice that you just gave there.  Dan, any final words from you on anything about decision-making and careers that you think people need to know this before they approach their development in the next 12 months? 

Dan Ariely: I think that switching jobs is an option and people should have less risk aversion and so on, but I think that also changing the job should be considered as an option.  So, you basically say, "I want skill X, is there a way for me to get skill X in my job?  I want to learn how to do experiments, I want to practise this.  I'm already here, can I use my capital at the current company to get them to do something more interesting, something different?"  So, I think that it's very tempting to think that we just need to learn outside, but I think there's lots of opportunities to do bold projects within the company and make yourself happier and also, it's sometimes much easier. 

Helen Tupper: Dan, thank you so much for your time and your words of wisdom and your advice for everybody today. 

Dan Ariely: My pleasure, lovely to meet you. 

Helen Tupper: Thank you so much for listening to this conversation.  We'd love to hear about your reflections and your insights more broadly on the topic that we have been focusing on this week.  You can either email those to us, we're just helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, or you can join the LinkedIn live conversation that we've got for the videobook community tomorrow.  Whatever works for you, do it, we'd just love to hear from you.  Thanks so much for listening today.  Bye, everybody.