Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction 00:02:04: The disappointment equation 00:03:41: Some 2022 disappointments shared 00:06:42: Categorising types of disappointment 00:08:19: How to respond to disappointment 00:09:53: Default disappointment response 00:13:45: Idea for action 1: disappointed and… 00:19:40: Idea for action 2: get data on your disappointment 00:26:01: Idea for action 3: don't dwell, but do something else 00:31:51: A related podcast Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah Ellis. Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen Tupper. Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we chat about how to navigate the ups and downs of our Squiggly Careers, so that hopefully we can all navigate them with that bit more confidence and control along the way.  This week, as a word of warning, we are going to focus much more on the downs, which is not very like us, because usually we're pretty positive and optimistic, and hopefully you'll still get that vibe from us today. But today's topic is about dealing with disappointment, which I think is something that is inevitable in all of our careers, so we thought it was time to take on the challenge of talking about one of the downs that I think is probably some of the knottiest moments that we have to deal with in our career. Helen Tupper: And Squiggly Careers, so careers that are full of change and uncertainty, as well as all of the opportunity and possibility, are just designed to have some knotty moments along the way, we can't deny them, they just come with the Squiggles.  And interestingly, there's an article that we've read that says that over the last couple of years, because of the pandemic, we've all probably had more disappointment than we might possibly have wanted or expected to have.  So things like cancelled weddings, holidays, just missing moments in time. I've cancelled the same holiday I think three times!  I've basically honestly just given up on this holiday, this family holiday that I was going to go on now.  That's a nice thing that I have cancelled.  But people have been disappointed about missing much more significant things, to do with friends and families and work opportunities, and that's hard to deal with, and we can't get away from that.  But we hope that in listening to today's podcast and some of the ideas for actions that we've got, we've got some things that might help you. Sarah Ellis: And I was really interested, as we started reading about disappointment, about what it is and how is it different to things like resilience or failures or setbacks, because often I think those things all almost get lumped together.  And I do think disappointment is something different and it feels different, and we're going to talk about some of our own experiences, our very recent experiences of disappointment.  And it has felt very different to me to set back some challenges and failures and mistakes. I really liked this definition, which I found in an article written by a company called BetterUp, and they'd almost turned it into a bit of an equation.  And they say, "Disappointment equals expectation over reality", and it's when we feel unhappy because someone or something was not as good as you hoped or expected.  When we feel unhappy, because our hopes and our expectations are unfulfilled, we feel sad and disappointed; that's the experience that we feel.  And I thought that did a really good job of just describing what that sense of disappointment is. I think expectation is actually a really important word.  We're going to explore that a little bit more, and I think it's when there's this gap between our hopes and our expectations and then the reality of what happens, and how do we deal with that gap; what does that mean; how can we find our way through that gap and get to the other side? Helen Tupper: So, Sarah mentioned that we've had a few disappointments at the start of this year. Sarah Ellis: So, we've produced the podcast for our own purposes, basically! Helen Tupper: Oh my gosh, I know.  Here's the therapy section!  The thing is, it's really interesting, because on the surface, I think the start of the year for us has probably looked amazingly shiny, and in lots of ways it is.  So, we've been working on this book for two years and that went out into the world, and it's been really exciting to see people sharing it.  And we had an event that people wanted to come to. There's lots of good news, but actually behind the scenes and behind the screens, there have been some really hard moments that have created quite a lot of disappointment.  And we don't want to delve into it too much, but just to share some of our reality with you, because I feel we're all friends in the Squiggly Careers podcast community. So, the first one that you may know about or not know about is, the day before our first book tour day, which was in London on 19 January, which was the first event with people for, what, two years, Sarah, for so long, and there were 200-odd people that had bought tickets and were really excited.  The night before, I remember I was sat in my kitchen on the floor, because I always sit with my back against the radiator like a cat, and I got this message from Sarah that said, "Just so you know, I'm doing a second lateral flow test". I was like, "This is a strange WhatsApp message.  Why am I getting this message?"  And I was like, "Why are you doing a second one?" and there was quite a long pause, and then Sarah WhatsAppd me back saying, "Sorry, dude, I've got COVID" and it was just your first thought is, "I hope Sarah's okay", but then the second thought that followed pretty quickly was, "Oh my gosh, we've got this massive event tomorrow and I really wanted to do this with you, and it feels so strange to do it without you".  And it was just this really strange emotion of being so happy to be there with lots of people, but then a little bit empty, because you weren't part of that moment, which is quite a hard thing.  What else has disappointed us, Sarah? Sarah Ellis: That's one of many, there's a few more.  We'll speed up a little bit just so you don't all feel like, "Oh, God!"  I feel like we're spreading our disappointment to our listeners. Helen Tupper: Let's not do that. Sarah Ellis: As Helen said, You Coach You came out into the world and we've had a brilliant reception and I am so grateful to everybody who pre-ordered and bought the book really early, before you can read any reviews or get that much insight into the book, because I think you're trusting in us that it's going to be good.  Also, we really then appreciate people who are getting in touch with us and saying, "I love this chapter, I'm finding this tool really helpful". So, we are so proud of that book, and the book has already had a really good start.  So, it's sold loads of copies, more than 10,000 copies in the first month, which is brilliant.  All that and you're like, "That doesn't sound very disappointing, that sounds amazing", and that bit is amazing.  However, when books go into things like sales charts, like in the Sunday Times and those kinds of things, lots of our book orders weren't counted towards those sales, for loads of reasons that we won't chat through.  But it did mean that then the sales that were published were about half the actual sales. That just felt really disappointing, because it didn't feel like it reflected the level of support that we had had for the book.  We argued it very hard, and it was an ongoing disappointment.  And each time we felt like we were making a bit of progress, it was one of those where it was one step forwards, two steps back, "Maybe there's a bit of hope, a glimmer of hope", and then all of that hope would be taken away from us. Helen Tupper: It's like this expectation/reality cycle.  It was awful. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, a new expectation, but a lower reality.  But every week for four weeks, it was not fun.  And it was a process and something I would never want to repeat again, just in terms of that sense of, I don't think I've ever had anything in my career where it was continual expectation and disappointment.  So, that happening constantly for quite a few weeks was a really new reality, I think for both of us.  That was another one. Helen Tupper: I think just to categorise these a little bit, because I think they are two outcome-oriented disappointments, that we had an expectation of an outcome and the reality was different.  But it could be a disappointment in other people, in the way that other people might have behaved.  So, maybe you had hoped to get some support from someone to do with a situation, and you're a bit disappointed that the reality of their support wasn't what you had expected, so that's more about other people. It can also be disappointment in yourself.  Maybe you were in a situation, maybe it was a work meeting, and you just didn't respond in the way that you would have hoped to or wanted to or planned to, and then you might come away from that moment in time and be disappointed in how you showed up or what you said.  So, I do think it's almost useful sometimes to think about when you're listing your disappointments, should you wish to do that, is it about an outcome or is it about someone else's behaviour or is it about your own behaviour, just so that you have that insight into, can you see anything in that in the types of disappointments that are really bothering you. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I actually did do that exercise.  I actually did list all of my disappointments, because I didn't want to just focus on the last month or the last couple of months.  It's actually an interesting exercise, if you feel like you're in a good place to do that.  I wouldn't say that's something to do all of the time.  I think because I was interested in almost interrogating how the last six weeks has felt versus how all of my career has felt, and I did notice some differences in terms of patterns and some of my responses, so I actually did find that useful to compare and contrast.  So, if you want to do a list of your disappointments and see what you learn, it's an interesting exercise to do in terms of your awareness. Also, one of the other things that you start to notice is, "How do you respond to disappointments?"  There's sort of three ways that really we can choose to respond.  We can be passive, which I think is often quite childlike, but this is where maybe you're sulking.  We all love a good sulk from time to time!  Or, you give up, you think, "I'm going to give up, this feels too hard [or] I'm trying to protect myself from this disappointment".  Maybe you deny it, so you don't really see the reality, you avoid the reality.  So, you can have quite a passive response. You can have an aggressive response, which is where you get more into blame and maybe blaming other people; revenge-type thoughts, which we'll talk a bit more about.  I recognise some of these.  So, both passive and aggressive we know; and I suppose if you put them together, you get passive/aggressive.  None of those three things are particularly useful in our responses, but also, I think, understandable, when you've had particularly big disappointments, as I think there are lots of levels of disappointment that we can feel. Then you get the one that we all aim for when we're all adults in grown-up mode, which is you can respond in a more assertive way, where you're thinking, "What have I learnt?  What feedback can I get?  What might I do differently?" and we all talk about getting to the learning, but I think there's often quite a lot of work to do actually.  It's very unlike us to say, "We're going to get to the learning last".  But actually, when we've looked at disappointment, I think you do get to learning last, because I think there's some other important stuff that has to come before.  We're going to categorise this as your "default disappointment response". So, do you have a default disappointment response, do you think, when you look back on your disappointments; do you have one way that you go, or does it change? Helen Tupper: I'm loving/hating this deep dive into disappointment! Sarah Ellis: Yeah, we had a debate about whether this was even a good idea to do, everybody, and we were, "No, it is a good idea".  But I have to say, we did wait a little bit longer. Helen Tupper: We were going to do it a couple of weeks ago and we were like, "No, we're not ready for that episode!"  Let us know what you think about this episode.  I think it would be interesting to know what you think.  I think mine is mainly passive, so almost denial, "I'll just work a bit harder, I'll just try and make it better".  It's the opposite of giving up, but it's keeping going, but keeping going from a point of denial, rather than going, "Do you know what, this is a bit rubbish and I just need to press pause".  I'm not great at that and I just keep going.  I think it's denial for me. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think you keep going regardless, because I think that's your coping mechanism.  I think we all have coping mechanisms that we go to when we're feeling disappointed, and I think yours is, because you're naturally an action, make-it-happen person, you're like, "I can fix this if I just keep going.  It will fix itself".  I see that in you a lot over the last month!  Just work harder, it will be fine! Helen Tupper: Until I break! Sarah Ellis: And it turns out, it's not always fine, unfortunately. Helen Tupper: No.  Go on, Sarah, I know what Sarah's going to say. Sarah Ellis: I don't think I get as passive, but I do think I get a bit aggressive.  At my worst, and I don't think that many people would see this, I hope not many people would see this, because I would say I don't feel very proud of it. Helen Tupper: I concur with your assessment! Sarah Ellis: Yeah, great, at least we can laugh about it, if nothing else.  I'm very competitive and I've always been very competitive and I think what happens here, you know when you sometimes talk about, your spikes get spikier under pressure and stress? Helen Tupper: Yeah. Sarah Ellis: I think your make-it-happen sort of relentless spike gets spikier, and I think my competitive streak gets very spiky, and it doesn't happen very often.  When I looked back at my disappointments, I think I might have done that to make myself feel better, to be honest, because when I looked back to lots of disappointments in my career, because we all get disappointed when we go for a promotion and we don't get it; every time I've been for a promotion in my career, I've not been successful the first time around. I have responded to those in a very different way to perhaps how the last six weeks have felt, in the main, and I could think of other disappointments where I was like, "Oh, actually, I felt quite proud of myself, I did quite a good job of finding my way through that".  I think I'm rarely passive, it's obviously not quite in my personality traits.  But I think, at my most disappointed, where the expectation and the reality gap is at its biggest, yeah, my default is more anger. Helen Tupper: Not to build on that, that's the wrong thing, I would say you don't act with aggression though, you respond with it. Sarah Ellis: I'll vent! Helen Tupper: You'll vent in an aggressive way, but you don't act with aggression, just to reassure you. Sarah Ellis: No, I would hope there are probably only three people who would ever see that aggression, and then probably just back away quite quickly, "Back away, everybody!" Helen Tupper: "Let's just work through this moment until Sarah gets the adult assertive response to the situation"! Sarah Ellis: Yeah, "She'll get there". Helen Tupper: Which is where we are now, everybody, as we go to ideas for action. Sarah Ellis: Here we are.  So, you can tell that we are really doing this just to help ourselves, to be honest, today!  So, we've got three ideas for action for you.  We've done quite a lot of reading about disappointment in terms of, because I think it is a different emotion, it's a different feeling, to some of those other things, as we said, if you go to learning too soon, you're often not ready for it. So, it feels that often, the pragmatic, grown-up response should be straight into, "What did I learn?  What am I going to do differently?"  Certainly, if I think about the last six weeks or so, there is no way I was ready to be able to do that in a useful way, where that learning was going to last, or be that helpful for me. So, this first idea for action we're calling, "Disappointed and…", and this is really just about recognising your emotions.  The reason we're calling it "disappointed and…" is we want to go further than just, "I feel really disappointed", because disappointed is the start, but usually there are some other emotions as well.  When we name how we're feeling, it does really help us to just accept those feelings.  We're not trying to beat ourselves up about those feelings, we're just trying to acknowledge them. I do think if you can have a conversation with somebody else about them, that can also be really useful, where you've got a work best friend or someone you really trust.  And there is a brilliant quote that Helen and I found, and we were WhatsApping it to each other going, "This is so true!" which just shows you how much we have felt; I think we're very much in feeling mode at the moment, which probably everybody can hear, and the quote is, "Expectation is the root of all heartache", and I just read that and I was just, "Yeah, that's what happens", when there is this really big gap. So, the idea here, really, really simple exercise is, when you are feeling disappointed, when that expectation/reality gap has happened, it could be a small gap, it could be a really big gap, write down for yourself, "I'm disappointed, and…" and then try and get to three more emotions.  It actually took me a bit of time to figure out and to name those emotions when I tried this, because I tried this a couple of times for a couple of examples.  But I did then find it interesting and useful. So, Helen, shall we talk through a couple of ours?  So, I get COVID the day before book launch, so how did you feel?  You felt disappointed, and…? Helen Tupper: I felt frustrated at this moment that we'd built up to had been taken away from us, and actually that followed another event that we'd had to reschedule, that we haven't even mentioned, in January, so I was frustrated that I felt like it was happening again.  I felt disappointed and sad that I didn't have this moment to share with you, which would have been a special moment.  I felt disappointed and nervous, because I was doing something on my own.  And I felt disappointed and I can't quite -- I find it hard to name this emotion, but almost like betrayal, it's a really weird one! Sarah Ellis: From me? Helen Tupper: No, not from you, from me! Sarah Ellis: I was like, "Oh my God!" Helen Tupper: No, as in I felt like I was stealing your spotlight a little bit. Sarah Ellis: Oh, okay, the opposite of what I just assumed then! Helen Tupper: The opposite of what you just assumed, that's interesting, isn't it!  But no, I felt like I was not a fraud or an imposter, it's not that; that's why I'm finding it hard to name the feeling.  But I felt like I was stood on the stage representing our work without you being there, and it felt like a little bit of a betrayal. But the reason I found it quite helpful to name the emotions is because I think every emotion for me had a different action.  So, feeling like I was betraying you meant that I needed to let you know how much I wanted you to be there, so that you didn't think I was stealing the spotlight. Sarah Ellis: Well actually, you definitely did. Helen Tupper: And then feeling sad about it made me think, "Well, try and find the nice moments in this, like talking to some people that you've met only on Instagram, for example".  For me, that is a particular thing about naming the emotions, it's the action associated with each emotion was actually slightly different.  And if I'd just said about disappointment, I probably wouldn't have been able to take those different actions. Sarah Ellis: And it's interesting because I think again, if it's a shared disappointment, because sometimes I think we have individual disappointments in our career, but sometimes they are shared; we're disappointed as a team that something doesn't work out, or perhaps you're running a business like us and you're listening to it and there are disappointments along the way. My words were quite different, because obviously I was having quite a different experience to Helen.  So, mine were, I felt disappointed and deflated; disappointed and defeated, and I think that was a few disappointments coming together at one time, I did feel quite defeated at one point; and disappointed and, I can't work out how to do this in one word, but sorry for myself.  And actually, what's interesting, I talked about feeling new feelings, it felt very passive. So, I think I'm more comfortable with aggression, because I think that feels more familiar for me, because I get that I'm competitive, I know that about myself, so I can see why I would react in that way sometimes, and then I can figure out what to do differently.  Whereas there, I just felt this has happened, it's completely out of my control, I felt I think disconnected, that's a good one!  This is why this works, you see, it does work!  I felt disappointed and disconnected. To your point on action, I think because I did recognise that, we had got a few people, we have a Squiggly Careers advocates programme, and we knew there were some people going to that London event, and some of my friends were going and they knew that I'd got COVID; and I think because I felt disconnected, I was explicit about saying to people, "I'd love to see some photos.  Send me some photos, how are the guests getting on?  What did you love?" and I lay in my bed in my study, because I wasn't leaving my study so my partner and my little boy hopefully didn't get COVID, but just seeing those pictures coming through, actually I just felt really proud; I felt really proud. I obviously wanted to be there, but for that specific disappointment, I think because I'd spotted, without actually naming it as well as I've been able to this evening, that disconnection, I'd done something about it.  I wouldn't normally say to someone, "Send me loads of pictures" or, "Let me know what's happening", but I was a bit more on Instagram, I was on WhatsApp and I felt it helped to feel part of it, and just to find my way through something that was incredibly disappointing and that we'd worked really hard to get to, but felt okay about it. I think there are other disappointments that we've had, in the list, that I've found harder.  And also, I think I was really confident that I knew you would be brilliant.  So, I think that also leaves you feeling better about it, because I was like, "Helen will be brilliant.  I know she doesn't need me.  I know you might want me there, but I know she doesn't need me", and that was all true.  So, I think we did find our way through that, but I do find that naming really, really helpful. Helen Tupper: So, idea for action number two is to get a bit of data on your disappointment.  So, rather than feeling stuck in a situation, actually put yourself into a slightly different mental mode when, rather than experiencing it, you're trying to mine it for some data so that you can do something with the disappointment, rather than just sit in the situation.  There are a few questions to ask yourself which can be very useful in gathering some data.  I wonder if I ask you these questions, Sarah? Sarah Ellis: Which disappointment are we talking about? Helen Tupper: Well you can just pick one, you don't have to name it. Sarah Ellis: Okay. Helen Tupper: So, the first question, everybody, when you're gathering a bit of disappointment data and you're reflecting on a situation that feels hard, and maybe the emotions that you've identified is, "What have you learnt that you need to let go of from this situation?"  So, Sarah, over the past six weeks, what have you learnt that you might need to let go of if you're faced with those sorts of trials and tribulations again? Sarah Ellis: I'm very committed to outcomes, because I care, because I care about those outcomes, and it's a good way of knowing that you're making progress, and I don't want to stop caring about those outcomes; so it's not about not doing that.  I do think though, when an outcome doesn't go your way, you have to learn to let go of it.  So, that feels unfamiliar and not very enjoyable, I think.  You know when you're hoping a certain outcome, you know, you were hoping you were going to get a job and you don't get it?  There's no going back on that, there's no negotiating. I pride myself on being able to think creatively through most problems.  Things that can feel hard or quite big ambitious goals, I think I would always back myself and back us to go, "We'll find a way, we'll figure it out.  We might not figure it out tomorrow, but we will talk to different people, we'll learn and we'll get there, slowly and surely, but we'll get there".  I think the difference with some of the disappointments of the last six weeks or so is you go, "You can do everything right, but you don't always get the right outcome". So, you've got to remember that just because you've done everything right doesn't mean that you will get the right outcome, and that doesn't mean that you've done a bad job.  And I think we both fell into a little bit of blaming ourselves on some things where there wasn't really anything we could have done differently; there's just some things outside of our control that didn't go our way, and we tried really hard and we tried lots of different approaches and different ways, and I think we thought and we tried as hard as we could, and sometimes you do have to let go of an outcome and just go, "I can't keep thinking about that outcome, because there is nothing I can do to change it". So, I think it's how much headspace I give an outcome once it's determined.  Because, once it is determined, you can't change it, and try not to stay awake at night thinking about it. Helen Tupper: So, what you have learnt to let go of is maybe an outcome you can no longer influence. Sarah Ellis: Okay, well that's the short version; I hadn't quite got to that yet! Helen Tupper: And that might not be the answer for everybody, but I think it is getting to that kind of clarity, even if you have to talk around it a bit first.  So, that's number one, as you're gathering some data. The second thing in your disappointment data gathering is, "What have you learnt about yourself through the process that you've gone through?"  So, if I think about that for me, I have learnt that I'm quite tenacious, I kind of come away from that, I think I've been quite tenacious.  And also, as a positive person, I think I've learnt that I can sit with some negative emotions.  There have been times when I haven't tried to positive our way out of the last couple of weeks, I've just actually gone, "This is a bit hard, and that's all of it", and then I'm not going to try and make it better.  So, that's what you've learnt about yourself. Another bit of data that's useful to gather is, "What have you learnt about other people?" so maybe the people around you.  That could be at work, so that could be professional relationships that you might have.  It might also be personal relationships, in terms of what type of support they've given you, has there been a way that has been more comfortable for them to support you?  At times, have they seemed uncomfortable in supporting you through something that's quite emotional?  It's quite useful to know about that, because if you're in a situation in the future, it might result in you going to different people for different things, if you've got that insight about what you've learnt about them in the situation. The last thing, when you're gathering data in disappointment is, "What have you learnt about the task or process?"  I think I'm just getting there now.  I'm just getting to a point where I think, "I want to write this down", I didn't want to write it down two weeks ago, but I'm thinking, "I want to write this down so that if we do this again, I know or I can remember this without the emotion".  But also, I've got to a point now where I'm thinking, "I want to write this down so I can help other people.  I don't want other people to have to do some of the things that we've had to do.  And if I can take something beneficial away from this, by thinking about what I've learnt from the task or process, that's useful to more than me". Sarah Ellis: And I would say, with disappointment data, only do this when you feel ready, because we were both talking about this beforehand and saying that we genuinely have put off doing this podcast for a couple of weeks, because we were not quite ready to talk about this yet.  We knew we would, but we just needed a bit of time just to assimilate and figure our thoughts out, and we would have been so messy.  I mean, we might have sounded very messy anyway, but we would have been in such a mess, it wouldn't have made any sense, or been useful for anyone. I do think some of these questions you can perhaps answer at different points.  So, to Helen's point around, "What have you learnt about the task and the process?" for some people, depending on what your disappointment is, you might be able to get there on that one really quickly.  It might take you a bit longer to think about what you've learnt about yourself; or maybe you do the self-awareness bit really quickly, but you're not quite ready to really think about the ins and outs of the task or the process. I don't think I'm actually quite where Helen is in terms of being able to write things down on the task or the process just yet.  I mentally have got a couple more weeks left.  I don't think I would do a very job at the moment.  I think actually, if I did it now, I could almost spiral back into some unhelpful feelings, and I can just start to feel myself, like some of the letting go.  So, I think you've got to make sure that you have let go enough to be able to do some of those other things.  Honestly, I think if I had to do that tomorrow, I think that would be a bad thing for me.  So, I won't be doing that tomorrow, FYI! Helen Tupper: So, we talk in You Coach You about whether you're more of a thinker or more of a doer, and I think that Sarah's more of a thinker and I'm more of a doer.  I think that's playing into this now, which is why I'm ready to move on and do, and you're perhaps still needing to think it through a bit longer, which is just how we respond to different situations more generally. Sarah Ellis: You're good, that's good! Helen Tupper: Thanks! Sarah Ellis: Right, so final idea for action number three, which is when disappointment happens, we are desperately trying not to dwell on it and that can feel really hard.  I think this is something that I've really learnt in the last six weeks.  This has almost been probably like a surprising insight for me.  So, I would automatically have thought, "Right, don't dwell.  What really helps when you're disappointed is getting perspective, so you need to zoom out, you need to see the bigger picture, you need to think about all the things that are good and that are going well". I've found that's not helpful.  When things are really hard, it doesn't matter what anyone says to you, and some people have tried to do this and I completely get why you would try to do this for someone, so someone will try to go, "Oh, but that's really good still [or] this is going well".  It's a fact and they are right, but it didn't help me because I think in those moments, you're not ready, you're not ready to maybe zoom out or get that perspective. Usually, I'm someone who loves zooming out and I like that bigger picture, and that does really help me in lots of the other work I do.  I think I naturally think in that way.  But in the moment, instead of that, what often is more useful, and there's a brilliant quote by Alain de Button which I'll share in a second that summarises this, is rather than trying to zoom out from your situation or do the big picture, it's do something else, do something different; you actually need to escape. I was reading a brilliant article by Amy Gallo in Harvard Business Review, and she talks about the Great British Bake Off, but I think it's called something different in the US, I think it's called the Great British Baking Show, she calls it in the HBR, and I was like, "I think she means the same thing", it sounded very similar.  She was saying, "You sometimes just need to escape.  It's not about staying with that disappointment, it's about doing something different.  Focus your energy elsewhere".  It just stops you from dwelling on the disappointment, and it stops that spiralling and that overthinking. So, one of the things that Alain de Botton says, which I just think is very -- we were chatting a bit about stoicism and how that can be useful in these moments and he says, "One of the best protections against disappointment is to have a lot going on", and I do think that has helped me.  Because we still run a busy business where lots of things are happening, and it's not even lots of good stuff, it's just lots of things are happening, there is only so much space to be disappointed. Then, because you've also got your kids; Max, my little boy, doesn't care about those disappointments.  What he cares about is, "How many books are you going to read me?  Will you play Top Trumps with me this evening?"  And all of those different things, where you're escaping away, you're spending time away from the disappointment, actually really helps you.  Then I think often, it helps you to do the letting go, it helps you with some of the emotional stuff, it means you don't stay in it, you don't get too deeply stuck. I think you could get stuck in disappointment.  I can see how I could get stuck in disappointment, particularly really hard disappointments, and I think this has been really useful for me.  Just other stuff, essentially, not even worrying about it, not thinking about it, do some other things and then move on and maybe do some of that disappointment data when you feel ready for it.  That could be 24 hours, a couple of days. I remember someone saying to me, one of my friends, he was like, "Oh, I just have quite a lot to drink, play some computer games, see my friends and then I'm sorted", and I was like, "Okay, fair enough".  And he was talking about he just needs a weekend sometimes.  Sometimes, it could be a bit longer, where you just need to not think about it too much.  It might be a couple of weeks or a month. So, I think just think about that, and I don't know whether that helps anyone else, but certainly that automatic assumption that I had that zooming out would be useful, and looking for the good stuff; we often talk about the very small successes, I was like, "That doesn't help, I still feel exactly the same". Helen Tupper: I've actually found Alain de Botton's work sort of depressingly useful to do with disappointment, do you know what I mean by that? Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's so pragmatic, isn't it? Helen Tupper: Yeah, it's so pragmatic and when I was reading a lot around this, because I started reading An Emotional Education again recently, The School of Life book, and he basically says that we almost create a situation where we are exposed to disappointment, because of the expectations we place on ourselves that life has to be perfect, and work has to be perfect.  Then you get into this cycle where you have created a reality where you're going to be disappointed, because of course nothing is perfect. It's not really about lowering your expectations, so it's not about, "Well, if I just expect every day to be awful, then it can only get better", but there is a little tinge of that in his work, which is just know that nothing is going to be perfect and everyone is going to fail and disappointment comes with success.  If you can accept that in the round, you're less exposed to the fluctuations.  So, it's not supposed to be a philosophy podcast, but I have found his work a bit of a bomb, I would say, over the last few weeks. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I've found the same.  And I think one of the things actually that Amy Gallo says in that article that really stuck with me is, we don't want to lower our expectations.  You don't want to let a disappointment dint your hopes for the future.  She was like, "It's good to be hopeful, and it's good to care".  They are really good things.  Being hopeful and with really caring and being really committed, inevitably at times there will be disappointments. There was this great quote where it said, "Disappointment is inevitable, but being discouraged is a choice".  I don't think I could have read that quote about three weeks ago.  So I think that quote, I definitely needed that quote at the right moment, but when I read that, I just about felt ready to go, "Yeah, do you know what, it is inevitable and it has been hard, but it's because we really care and you hope for certain outcomes, and that gap felt quite big at times". But I don't want to be discouraged, and I'm really committed to what we do and I do love what we do, so we're finishing on a high and I feel like we'll make it until next week -- Helen Tupper: I feel like that's a highly helpful conclusion! Sarah Ellis: -- and I hope it will be quite a good one as well, we should think a bit about that.  That would be an interesting topic to talk about. Helen Tupper: Well, that's been cathartic, everyone! Sarah Ellis: So basically, if you get really stuck, turn to philosophy, is our conclusion for today! Helen Tupper: Or just relisten to this podcast.  Actually, if you are a bit stuck in this situation in the moment, and I hope this has been a helpful conversation if you have; but if you do want something else, another follow-on listen, Episode 157 is all around getting yourself unstuck from pessimism and practising the art of optimism. So, to Sarah's point, you have to deal with the disappointment stuff first before you can flip into that mode.  But if you feel like you've done some of the things that we talked about today and you've got all the data and you're ready for it, you're ready to say, "I'm not going to be discouraged by this situation", then maybe that episode on optimism could be the next best listen for you. Sarah Ellis: So, as always, thank you for continuing to listen, thank you to everybody who recommends us.  We know loads of you recommend our podcast to your friends, to your family, to the people that you work with.  And if you are listening for the first time, or you've not had a chance yet, if you do get the chance to rate or review the podcast, we read every single one, and it always gives us that burst of optimism in a week. So, thank you so much for listening, thank you for bearing with us this week as we dealt with our own disappointments, but we do hope it's been useful for you too and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now. Helen Tupper: Speak to you soon everyone, bye.