Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:10: Inclusivity
00:02:55: Sonya's background
00:06:45: Inspirational role models
00:10:28: Where to start to make change
00:12:25: Discover your "why?"
00:14:02: It's okay to fail
00:16:43: Career advice
00:18:05: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hello, I'm Sarah Ellis and this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  This episode is one of our special series of short conversations that we've had with this year's LinkedIn Changemakers, which we're also really proud to be included in.  Each of these people is pioneering really important change in the world of work, making an incredible difference across areas including equality, mental health and sustainability, and we're looking forward to learning so much about how they've made change happen, their hopes for the future, and also how we can all get involved.

Today, you'll be hearing my conversation with Sonya Barlow.  Sonya is championing change across inclusivity, and really is just a general, I think, champion of change across all of the work that she does.  What I particularly appreciated in our conversation is just how honest Sonya is about all the stuff below the surface; what hasn't gone to plan, what's been really hard, and the challenges she's had that have really spurred her on to make changes. 

Also, it was so nice to hear her talk about her role models and learn a bit about her family and how that's really helped and supported her with where she is today.  I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation and I'll be back at the end to let you know how you can learn more, and also who else you can hear from in this series.

So, Sonya, thank you so much for joining us today on this special Squiggly Careers podcast episode.

Sonya Barlow: Thank you for having me, I'm very excited to be on here, especially because I've been listening for so long that it just feels like one of those things that you tick off your own individual professional bucket list.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, that's so nice; I didn't know that you were a listener until you just told me right now!  So, let's start.  I would love you to just share with our listeners, who might be new to you and to the work that you do, and you do so many interesting things that I was going, it was really hard to know where to start; because simultaneously, there are about six or eight things I'd love to talk to you about. But let's really focus on change, because that's what we're here to talk about today.

So, what is the change that you're really passionate about making and that you've been pioneering over the past couple of years, and longer than that really?

Sonya Barlow: Yeah, thank you.  So, I guess my change is changing people's perceptions of themselves, and most importantly what their journey, their life, their career means to them.  For me, it's about providing confidence to them so they can redefine their measure of success and then go out and achieve their best life.

I guess the umbrella around that is to be authentic, to be inclusive, but most importantly to come back and be your biggest cheerleader.  It comes from a place of curiosity, it comes from a place of confidence; but most importantly, it comes from the fact that change is healthy, and if the world is evolving, why are we as individuals so adamant in staying still, or staying in the same or traditional path, as one may say?

So, I graduated in 2015.  I did everything you were meant to do.  I come from a fairly working-class background, I'm the first of my family to go to higher education.  I got my grades, I came out, that's what I was told.  That's what you're told after 18 years of education to be, "You've made it.  You need a degree and then you'll be taken seriously".  Then, I walked into the world of corporate work and starting in the tech industry, and every time I went to a new company, I'd be keen, I'd be eager, I'd be willing to learn, I'd be curious, I'd ask the right questions, or I'd ask some questions at least, and then there'd be someone there either trying to bash you down, or trying to tell you to conform into this space that wasn't necessarily my space.

So, in 2018, I founded Like Minded Females Associate Enterprise; but back then, it was just a brunch club, because I was lost and I realise that I was lost without any real sense of community or other women to talk through the same experiences.  But when I went looking for that support, it was very expensive, especially in London.  I'm like, "Well, I don't have that kind of money, I don't have a disposable income where I can just spend £100 on networking and drinks; one, because I don't drink, and two, because networking should be free".

Then, at the end of 2019, unfortunately or fortunately, my career came to this really weird pivot point and that's where the idea of change was spotlighted.  I came to these roads to say, "Okay, do I carry on in my corporate career; do I go on to another job?"  At that point, I was looking at jobs that were six figures and I was very young in terms of data and stats-wise to be on that amount on the work that I was doing in tech, especially as a woman of colour.  Or, was it a chance to believe in myself and give myself a better chance?  I decided on, let me give the next 18 months to give myself a go.

So, I started 2020 with absolutely no real understanding of business or what I was going to create, but I knew that (1) companies were not getting inclusion right, (2) normal, ordinary people were feeling like they didn't have the confidence, the capability to launch their careers, and (3) young women, especially professional women, were feeling like they didn't quite know what the next steps were, and I wanted to help solve all of that, or at least give people the opportunity to figure it out themselves.

So, I started my Diversity in Business Consultancy, and then the pandemic hit.  So, for about four months, I had no income, so I thought, "Let me just launch my personal brand".  So, I started doing a lot of content on LinkedIn and on Instagram, and just talking to people and not being afraid to try something new for the sake of it.

I started a podcast called Strategically Winging It which, as per the title, is what I think most of us are doing anyway.  And by July 2020, I was talking to a publisher about writing a book.  That got signed off in September.  It started running in September at the same time when both my businesses, so Like Minded Females and my own consultancy, really had a point where they blew off.  So, I had all of these new clients come through and I was trying to balance all of that.

Then, once I finished writing my book around April 2021, I was scouted, or approached, by an audio company that was working on behalf of the BBC and then, through that process, eventually was able to accomplish my own radio show.  Then, a month after that, I was notified that I was going to be a LinkedIn Changemaker.

So, I would say in 18 months, when we're talking about change, yes, my life changed absolutely and it changed for the better, but a lot of that change came from the little baby steps that I'd been doing in the background and most importantly, that change came from giving yourself a chance to actually go into a new path or a new wave that you wouldn't have expected before.

Sarah Ellis: Who do you look to for inspiration, so who are your role models, whether they are people that you know, or people just that you look up to or that you've read or spent time with?  I'm always really fascinated to know, when you hold quite a lot of the weight of the world on your shoulders, so people are looking up to you, who provides that role for you?

Sonya Barlow: If someone is like, "Who is your role model?" mine isn't the Beyoncés of the world, or the Kamala Harrises of the world, let's say.  I am the kind of individual that likes to pick great qualities from a number of people and see how I can learn from them and do better. 

So a great example being, my first role models have to be my parents, just purely based on the fact, not because they're my parents, but because they're two individuals that gave up their life in Pakistan and moved to the UK without any real financial support or understanding.  Yes, they had family here, but they didn't really have anything substantial.  So, they gave up what they had to come here to provide for their kids, to give them a better life and to give them opportunity.  So absolutely, them being the first and foremost.

Then, my second, especially in the last years, has to be my partner, because we met at a time where both of us weren't established, but we were trying to figure it out.  And in all of this, a lot of times when we're talking about successes, or being a businesswoman or the achievements, we forget about the people in our lives that have also had to sacrifice to make that possible. 

I give a lot of credit to him, because he's put a roof over my head, and also gives me the constant encouragement, be that going through the chapters of the book, or listening to my TED talk before it went out, or even the radio shows, giving the constructive criticism to be, "This is what you could do better [or] here's where you can improve"; not to mention the many trials that you bring during the night-time because you're just running late.

Then, I'd say it's the mentors of the world.  So, two of my mentors that I always reach out to is, one's Devina Paul and one's Mamta Gera, and they are two women of colour in senior positions.  Devina was actually the first woman of colour in a senior position that I've ever met or I've ever seen, and I was 24 at the time.  I was like, "It's taken me 24 years to see a woman of colour", that's nearly a quarter of your life, "in a position which you can possibly reach", and Mamta herself, she came on the show a couple of weeks ago.  She is a South Asian woman who is figuring it out herself, but is also embracing her sexuality, and I think that's so beautiful, because a lot of people don't have that.

Then obviously, you go online and you look at the likes of yourself and your co-founder, who have made a career and a journey out of encouraging people to consider the different routes and paths, or Deborah Kemler or Abadesi, or Charmaine Reed, who are beautiful women who have just created something from a seed and said, "Do you know what; if we can do it, you can do it too". 

Then, not to mention the South Asians of the world.  So, random things, so you have Malala, who obviously is a Pakistani woman herself and has gone through her own circumstances and is there to be a good force of the world.  But then, you see brown woman now on the likes of Never Have I Ever, on Netflix; it's just an example.

It's like, okay, when I was growing up, I'm 28 right now, so when I was 8 or even when I was 18, and I was like, "I want to go into media [or] I want to be on a book [or] I want to go into TV", it was often, "Do you know what; girls don't do that, brown girls don't do that.  Your voice has to be timid, you have to be reserved, you have to keep yourself to yourself".  I think, to go back to your original question, my role models are women who are challenging that norm to say, "We're here, we're in this space; we can do it and you can do it too"; that's all it is for me.

Sarah Ellis: And, if someone is listening to our conversation today and perhaps is in a tough place, it's been a tough 18 months for lots of people in terms of their careers individually, and perhaps they are thinking, "I feel really stuck.  Perhaps I feel a bit lost", where would you suggest people get started, and what might be useful advice that you could offer to those people who are listening and they really recognise feeling the way that you felt maybe two or three years ago, before you started to make all these changes that you've described?

Sonya Barlow: If anyone is out there feeling disconnected, the first thing I would just want to say is, you're not alone.  One in four of us are feeling disconnected; one in four of us are mentally not doing very well, and over 70% of that is because of the work environment, or working environment.  I would say initially, I just want you to stop.  It's okay to stop.  Use your sick days, use your holiday, just take some time off.  If you're a business owner, just take a bit of time off and take some time back.

Then you want to go and do something which is fun for yourself.  That could be everything from taking a walk to sitting down and having a warm cup of tea, to going and getting some ice cream from outside; whatever it is that you want to enjoy that takes your mind completely off it.  We live in this hyperconnected reality and there are negatives, but there are more positives I believe. 

Over 50% of the global org are online, so jump online, find your people.  That could be going on LinkedIn and sending a message to myself, for example, and saying, "Hey, Sonya, I've seen your journey from A to B.  I am really interested in forming my own business, but feel really unsure as to how to start.  Do you have 15 minutes for a conversation?"  Or, joining the many communities that exist out there and giving them all a go.  You don't necessarily have to pay for them; you can ask to be a test member or give it a go, but you want to do that research.  It goes back to being curious and it goes back to exploring the options.

Then, ask the questions, ask any and every question, because you don't know what you're even searching for when you're at a point of disconnect.  I originally thought that I was searching for a brunch club and I was searching for women to make friends with.  It turns out that I was searching for a wider purpose; I was searching for, "What else do you do that isn't just a job that I do, and how did you get there?"  I was searching for, is it really money that I chase, or is it impact, or is it being able to manage my own calendar?  Or, is it the fact that I personally am a sufferer of chronic migraines and depression, so I want to be in a place where I can coordinate my own calendar so that I can take the time off that needs to be?  What is your "why", really simply?

It's then acknowledging your power, so what makes you different, and then really owning those skills, those strengths, building those muscles and carrying it on.  I always relate it back to the theory of being a child, or when you're young and when you're learning to walk or learning to run for the first time, and you're going to the park and you're trying all these different things; you're falling down and you're hurting yourself, but you're not stopping.  I don't know why and where it is as adults that we lose that, but for me that's something that I really embraced over the last, I would say, about 18 to 24 months is, "Let me give it a go.  If I hurt myself, cool.  Let me just put a bandage on it and try again".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  And I think sometimes, that expectation that we have on ourselves to get things right first time, there's always this gap, isn't there, between of course often, in my experience, people are very understanding of other people and of course you should take a break and slow down or think a bit differently but, "Oh no, I couldn't possibly do that". 

Sonya Barlow: But also, it comes from social comparison.  So, don't compare yourself online.  Just because I have a post and it says I've won an award, doesn't mean that I haven't been rejected three times to get there.  So, in April, I put a post out to say, "I didn't achieve Forbes 30 Under 30".  Last year, I didn't even make it to the shortlist round; this year I made it to the shortlist round, but I didn't achieve that.  But that post went viral, because it was the honesty about not achieving something, about failing, about trying again.

Similarly, on my social channels, I make it a point to talk about the good and the bad, because the bad is the reality, right?  I've done all of these great things.  Unprepared to Entrepreneur is a book that comes out in October but actually, the first time I wrote my first chapter, it was not great.  Actually, it was pretty terrible and it took my editor and my friends to be, "That's not good.  Go and do it again".  The first time I did a podcast, it wasn't awesome.  The first time I did a workshop or a talk, it didn't go very well.  I stumbled on my words, I didn't even know what to say and the audience attraction wasn't great.  Now, public speaking is one of my fortes.

So, everything you do, the first, second, third time, you'll get wrong.  And on social media, if you're following accounts which are just showing those successes, then you need to stop following them, because that's also not great for our mental health.  We spend over three hours online.  Over 70% of us feel like imposters, or have imposter syndrome, which is where you feel like a fraud or you're not good enough or you doubt yourself.  Much of that is because we're online socially comparing.

So, think about when you have a bad day, what do you do; do you turn your tech off?  No, you probably go and scroll through Instagram or Twitter or LinkedIn and make it worse for yourself.  Think about, how are you handling those negative moments, how are you handling your stresses, be that reading a book, be that going on a walk, be that turning your phone off, or being that binge-watching on Netflix, whatever it is that you're doing, just make sure that you're not there comparing yourself to a person on the internet, because that person on the internet, to create that one content piece, may have spent three hours doing it, or may have spent three days doing it.

To achieve that one award may have had ten rejections.  I mean, I won a grant for Like Minded Females earlier this year for £9,000 from the National Lottery.  It took me 12 months and three rejections to get there; about four weeks' worth of work, but no one really knows that side of the story.  But I make sure that we share it online, because not everything is the gold at the end of the rainbow, or that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow doesn't always have to be money.  It can be time, it can be resources, it can be health, it can be confidence, it can be career, it can be change, it can be whatever it is that your version of gold is, and that's really important to remember.

Sarah Ellis: And, we always ask every guest this as a way to finish our conversation today, and I suspect it's going to be quite a hard one for you, because I feel like you've already shared so many words of wisdom, and this is sort of how you spend your time; but if you were to leave our listeners today with one bit of career advice, or one thing that you would really like them to remember, whether it's just your own advice, or whether it's advice you've been given from other people that you really want to pass on, what would that one piece of advice be?

Sonya Barlow: I guess my one piece of advice is, go give things a go; what's the worst that can happen?  I spoke about the failure aspect and it's my mother who calls failure, "a temporary disruptor", and just hearing those words changed my life and changed the way that I viewed failing.  It's always come from my dad, the essence of, just go and give things a go.  At least you've given it a go and then you're, "Okay, I can't do it [or] I don't like it [or] it's not for me", rather than not even giving it a go and saying, "It's not for me".  What's the worst that can happen?

If you try, do you know what; you might get a LinkedIn profile boost, you may get a book, you may get a talk show, you may get an episode on this podcast out of it.  Or, you may just learn that it's not for you and all of those things are just as good as the other.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you for listening to today's special episode of the Squiggly Careers Changemakers podcast.  If you'd like to learn more about the work that Sonya is doing, you can find loads of links in our show notes to her LinkedIn profile, to her book, to her website.  So, please take a minute to check those out if you think it could be useful.

Don't forget, you can also listen to other short conversations with LinkedIn Changemakers, including Leyla Acaroglu, who shares her work with me on sustainability, a really fascinating conversation; and Martyn Sibley, who discusses disability equality with Helen.  That's all for today.  Thank you so much for listening to this special episode, and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.