Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:26: Finding your first job
00:04:53: Turn expectation to experimentation
00:07:44: Early career memories
00:10:38: Interview 1: Yemurai Rabvukwa ...
00:14:00: ... dealing with failure
00:14:58: ... upskilling for a squiggle
00:17:18: ... advice on approaching the first job
00:20:19: ... the role of mentors
00:21:45: ... building relationships in a hybrid world
00:24:02: Interview 2: Sarah Gregory ...
00:25:51: ... feelings on entering new roles
00:29:01: ... advice for employers
00:32.42: ... working hybrid or remote
00:35.41: ... the first 100 days
00:38:42: ... Sarah's career advice
00:39:56: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  This episode is part of the Squiggly Career Stage Series, try saying that all together, where we're talking about five different career stages, and sharing insights and advice that we hope will help people succeed.  So, these are some specific episodes where we cover career returners, career changers, career setbacks, career continuers, and today we're talking about career starters. 

Helen Tupper: And as well as me and Sarah sharing some of our perspectives on this particular career stage, we've also interviewed a couple of people to get their insights too.  So, you will hear Sarah's conversation with upReach, a social mobility charity that we actually came into contact with when we did our Careers Collective Live, for any of you who think, "Oh, I've heard of upReach before", and I have a conversation with a brilliant recent career starter who also did an early squiggle, but I won't spoil it too much, Yemurai Rabvukwa, who's got some very insightful and specific advice for people who might be starting out in their career.  We've also got a guide.  So, all of the episodes that we are releasing this week as part of this Career Stage Series come with a guide, so you can learn a bit more and also reflect and take action.  Each guide has coach-yourself questions, a tool to try out and an extra interview.  So, the guide that comes with this episode has an interview with Jack Parsons, who is the CEO at Youth Group.  We'll link to that in the description.  You can also get it on our website at amazingif.com.

Sarah Ellis: So, recording this episode has really taken me back to looking for your first job and getting your first job.  And I do think it's the start of your Squiggly Career, but I'm not even sure if you'd use the word 'career' at that point, because I think you are just so focused on getting a job, it has so many emotions.  You're probably excited.  It's a transition phase, it's where hopefully you're going to use those skills or those qualifications that you've got so far and put them to good use, and hopefully see them come to fruition.  But I also think it's incredibly daunting and can feel really overwhelming.  And certainly, when I've done some Squiggly Career sessions, particularly with people who are just about to graduate, so they've maybe just finished their degree, you can see that actually when I talked about Squiggly Careers and things like, "Don't put too much pressure on yourself, and you will develop in different directions", actually people feel really relieved.  It's quite a daunting prospect, isn't it, the idea of finding your first ever proper job I suppose? 

Helen Tupper: Well, I think there's quite a lot of self-pressure like, "I want to make the right move, I want this to be the right choice, the right start for my career", and then I do think there is also peer and potentially parental pressure as well, whether that is intentional or not.  There is just a lot of expectation on making the right first move, which I think means that when you are then looking for opportunities, you might be filtering a lot of things out because you might think, "Well, that doesn't look the right match for me", or, "That doesn't tick all of my boxes".  And I think that that pressure and expectation can make the whole process of starting your first job, finding it and then getting started and feeling like, "Have I got the right thing; have I done the right thing?" a lot harder.

Sarah Ellis: I also wonder whether it's the first time in your life, maybe not for some people, but I'm just thinking back, I think it would have been for me, where you do get quite a lot of rejection in quite a short space of time.  So, I applied for lots of graduate schemes and they probably were nowhere near as competitive as they are today.  But I remember not being successful on some of those; some of those you don't even get through to the first round; some of them you do get through to the dreaded assessment centre, I have done a lot of assessment centres in my time; some of those are more successful than others.  I think it must be very rare that you just apply for one job and you get that job, so it's quite a tough time in terms of you probably haven't felt like that before.  And also, on one hand, you're like, "I've got these skills, [maybe] I've just got this qualification", and you expect that to be able to turn into a job, but it's really competitive.  And I think you found a stat, Helen, was it something like 100 to 200 applicants for each graduate role now? 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, for one job offer, 100 to 200-plus applications, which means you've got an 8.3% chance of getting a job interview from a single job application.  So, if you're finding it tough, it's really normal, but actually that doesn't always help you in the moment when you think, "Well, I've worked so hard and now I can't get to do the thing that I want to".  Also, I think it's compounded by lots of financial issues for lots of people.  They might have debts to pay off, they'll have rent and cost of living increases.  So, I think there's just quite a lot of hard things happening at once.  And so, when Sarah and I were reflecting on, "Well, what helps you?"  If you've got expectation and you've got pressure and you've got rejection, where's the light?  What helps me in the moment?  And one of the things that we think is important to hold in your mind if you are at this career stage is taking that expectation about finding the right job and actually reframing that more to experimentation. 

So, there's some interesting research that shows that the first five years in your job, learning is the most critical thing that you can do for your long-term financial success in your career.  So, basically you will earn more over the long term in your career if you learn more in the first five years.  So, experimentation is a really, really good way to approach learning, not trying to be perfect, not thinking you've got to get it right all the time, not seeing failure as the end, but just to see it as an opportunity to learn what didn't work so you could rethink what you might do next time.  Really approaching the first moves you make and the first roles that you take with experimentation and learning in mind will very literally pay off over the long term for your career. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, because you read a lot of research where things purpose, connection, sustainability are always shared as, "This is what really matters", actually to I think lots of people in their careers at every stage, but particularly people starting out.  And I think that's often the challenge, is the disconnect between going, "Well, I could describe the perfect job and the perfect company", but then the reality is there aren't that many of those roles and also, even the best companies aren't perfect.  So, maybe letting go of that high bar where we're really hoping that the perfect thing is going to emerge and going, "Well, actually, as long as I feel I'm going to be learning".  Maybe I wanted to work in a really big company and it's a bit smaller, or maybe I wanted to work for a brand that I really love, and this is not such a well-known brand. 

I was talking to somebody earlier today, maybe the most important thing when I reflect back on all of my early career was actually the people that I was working with and for, because that's who I was learning from and it didn't matter what the job title was, what the team I was in or the sector, and I had lots of non-glamorous jobs, but actually I had the best jobs in my early career where I had brilliant people around me, and I feel like that's what helped my first five years.  I don't think I necessarily looked for learning, but I think I was good in an interview at spotting like, "Oh, I like the energy from these people, I feel I can learn from them, I feel they're interested in me and what I can bring".  And they were always the people where I was like, you know, that osmosis of like, I got to just absorb all the good stuff from them and then think about what I wanted to do next.  So, I think looking for the learning times by the people you're learning with and from would perhaps be my filter. 

Helen Tupper: So, just before we go into our first interview, question for you, you talked about you did lots of non-glamorous things in your early career.  What was the least glamorous thing you did in your early career when you were a starter?

Sarah Ellis: Trying to sell Lucozade to offices in industrial estates, basically taking samples from the back of my car that they give you, because you're working in sales.  And, oh my God, it just was awful in so many ways.  I was really lonely, I had no one around me because I was just by myself, I was rubbish at sales.  That is a really good example of where I got a job that on paper probably did tick a lot of boxes, but I wasn't the right person for that job, and I hadn't really got anyone to learn with or from because it's actually quite an individual role.  So, yeah, that never felt very glamorous, driving in circles around industrial estates!

Helen Tupper: I remember one of mine.  Sarah and I actually had a similar first role when we were in Boots' head office in Nottingham.  So, we were both part of the launch of a new Boots brand called Minimode.  It was a children's clothing brand.  I look back on this now and I'm like, "Why did you do that?"  There must have been a more efficient way of doing this.  I was in charge of the weekly newsletter --

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah, I remember that.

Helen Tupper: -- that was going out to all the stores that had Minimode.  But this newsletter, so you had to create the newsletter, that wasn't the problem.  The problem was sending it to stores, 500 stores I think, so it was a lot of stores.  And we had to print it off on the local printer and then putting it in an envelope and then labelling it up.  And 500 labels, you know how labels never work on printers?  I mean, it used to take up a good two days of my week every week putting those newsletters in envelopes and putting labels on.  I mean, I'm not sure, I don't know how much I learned from that particular role but I do remember it not feeling very glamorous, and getting quite frustrated by labels!

Sarah Ellis: Perhaps, knowing there'll be some things that work out and there'll be some things that you'll probably be surprised that works that, or, "Oh, I thought everyone would be more efficient than this", and they're just not.  I think as well, if you can surround yourself with other people who are also going through their first roles, that's probably helpful, like networks and communities, where you can basically all laugh about sometimes how rubbish work can be and how unglamorous some of your days are.  I think when you're going through it for the first time, if it's just you by yourself, and I remember feeling this way, I remember feeling really isolated and I didn't really have anyone else to talk to.  And tech wasn't quite so good in those days, so people weren't as connected.  And I think that would have actually really helped me through that time, because I'm sure other people would be like, This is a bit of a disaster too", but I just didn't know that.  I think your friends can really matter during this time, and making time to talk to your friends, who will probably also all be having these stories to share too. 

Helen Tupper: So, let's hear some stories and let's get some practical insights on what you can do if you're a starter.  So, interview number one is me talking to Yemurai Rabvukwa, who started and studied science at university and then decided that that wasn't what she wanted to do, and then ended up squiggling into cyber security.  So, I think she's got some really interesting insights about what you might be expected to do can be different from day one, and then also how you start with success.  And she's definitely worth a follow on LinkedIn as well, because Yemurai is a Squiggly Career advocate and talks very positively about Squiggly Careers particularly in STEM.  So, if that's you and that's where you are at the moment in your career, I would highly recommend giving her a follow. 

Welcome to the Squiggly Career Podcast.  Can you just let our listeners know who you are, what you do, give us a window into your world?

Yemurai Rabvukwa: My name is Yemurai.  I'm a senior cybersecurity associate, tech career strategist.  So, I'm really passionate about helping people understand their transferrable skills and how they can leverage that into a role in tech that complements their background.  And also, I'm a Squiggly Careers advocate, I guess, because I had a Squiggly Career from chemistry to cyber security.  So, I like to push forward this mission that Helen and Sarah are working on, because I think it's really important for people in all stages of their career. 

Helen Tupper: That sounds like a very fancy and impressive job, and it is.  How did you find your way into the workforce?  Did you find it easy or did you experience some challenges in terms of getting your role and getting started? 

Yemurai Rabvukwa: Yeah, so I think there's two challenges here.  The challenge was first of all finding a role, and then the second challenge was navigating the corporate world when you first start.  So, with regards to finding my role, I was really confused, I didn't know where to start.  But what I didn't realise at the time is that there are multiple pathways of entry into the corporate world.  So, there's the graduate route, there's the entry-level route and there's the startup route.  And I remember being a graduate thinking, "I haven't secured a graduate job.  I've basically failed and I'm not going to get into the corporate world".  But upon realisation, there's actually multiple methods.  So, definitely those of you who are embarking on that journey, consider what entry routes are there and the best way to get in. 

The second thing I found as well was understanding the recruitment process and application process for those various routes.  So, for example, the graduate route requires you to do an application test and so it's really important that you prepare beforehand about assessment centres, interview preps, etc.  When it comes to the entry-level route it's really, really important that you update your CV, update your LinkedIn and they're more looking about the skills that you have, so what skills do you currently have that will actually match the role; whereas a graduate programme is more like, "You might not have the skills but we're going to train you".  So, entry-level role, you might have to upskill or reskill in a particular area to make you more applicable. 

Then, you also have a startup route which is more of an unconventional way, and the experience of working in a startup is a little bit different to working in corporate but the option is there.  Fortunately for me, I had the opportunity to land an entry-level route, and I was able to do that through upskilling in tech, updating my CV accordingly and then interviewing and getting through. 

Helen Tupper: So interesting, just the different routes, because that gives people more possibilities.  Can I just touch on a couple of things that you talked about?  So, maybe we start with failure.  If it doesn't go the way you want it to, what is your advice for people that might just be feeling a bit disillusioned, a bit disappointed, those sorts of feelings? 

Yemurai Rabvukwa: So, I totally understand because I was there, three years at uni, £67,000 worth of debt, and I didn't secure a graduate job.  Like, what was the point of going to uni if you're not going to secure a graduate job?  But what I've come to realise is that each individual person has their own journey to their career success.  So, I did chemistry and pretty much everyone on that course is doing completely different things.  Now that we live in a digital world and careers are evolving, it's expected that career paths aren't always necessarily going to be traditional in terms of going down the graduate route, your journey might look different and that's okay and you're not the only one.  So, I think once I realised that, it gave me confidence in knowing that my journey didn't come out how I wanted it to be, but I ended up where I was meant to be regardless. 

Helen Tupper: So, you talked about the upskilling, you made a big squiggle early, chemistry to cyber security.  So, what helped you upskill into this new area? 

Yemurai Rabvukwa: Yeah, so I think the thing that really inspired me to get into technology to begin with was, there was a lady who looked like me who was talking about her career success within the industry and how she was able to make that change, and also it was during that time I explored my curiosity and interest, because I started to learn about technology and how it was changing different industries, including chemistry itself.  So, I said, "You know what, I know I'm not interested in pursuing a completely chemical role, but I'm seeing this technology thing and how it's impacting the world in my industry as well.  What can I do to upskill in this area and explore this curiosity?"  And that was provided to me by a university support group. 

So, one of the university society groups, called Women in STEM, they had a partnership with the training academy at the time.  I upskilled in technology, was jobless for a little bit because I was trying to find my feet, and then I joined another career support group and they had a recruitment event highlighting the different roles in tech that they had.  And yeah, I just applied for one of the roles, which happened to be cyber security, was able to talk about my transferrable skills, the soft skills, but also the technical skills that I developed meant that I was a suitable candidate for the role.  The thing I would highlight, in terms of what's been pivotal to allowing me to enter into the corporate world, is the fact that I was part of groups.  So, the first one was women in STEM and then the second one was Coding Black Females, because oftentimes they have resources and provide opportunities and partnerships with organisations.  So, they bridge that gap between you, as the one who's looking for jobs, and organisations, who are looking for talent.  That's been pivotal to my success, as well as having a mentor, and I think organisations upReach also provide these programmes as well. 

Helen Tupper: I think it's very inspirational how you approached that early stage of your career.  Even though you'd spent several years learning about one thing, you're like, "I'm open to learn about something else".  And then also, your willingness to learn from other people, to put yourself into those groups where you probably didn't know those people to start with and it's meeting lots of new people.  I think it's brilliant advice but it's also very inspirational how you approached it.  And you got the job.  That is the first time, you're in a corporate environment, it's the first time, that's potentially daunting and scary, you can let me know, it's a while since I did this, how do you think you could approach getting that first job, growing in that first job in a way that helps you to be at your best as quickly as you can, given you've never done this before, what's the advice? 

Yemurai Rabvukwa: The first part is, give yourself grace.  You're not going to know everything, you're not going to be the best at what you do when you start with, and there's other people in that position as well.  Because when I started, I was like, "Oh my God, am I stupid?  I'm not getting this right, I'm not delivering this, the report is making mistakes".  Just understand that you're getting paid to learn a set of skills that you've never learned before.  I think in the corporate world, there's two aspects to your job.  There's doing your job, and navigating the organisation in and of itself.  So, understand, what does your job entail and what does that look; but also understand, where does your line of work sit within the organisation, and how can you utilise your organisation's resources effectively? 

So, for example, I would just turn up and do my job and hope for the best.  But what's actually required, as part of navigating the corporate world, even in your entry part is networking with other people within your line of work and outside of your line of work.  That also involves having mentors who have just finished what you've done and then who are experienced, so you understand how your career could progress.  Another thing is joining business resource groups, so things like Women in Tech, or whatever's appropriate for you, because then you're being mixed alongside other people in industry who you might not necessarily have come in contact with if you didn't necessarily make those moves.  Another thing is the logistical aspect of it, and I think that's probably one of the hardest things, is understanding what it means to manage time in your calendar, understanding the soft aspect of things, communication, how to communicate with this person, how to communicate with seniors via email, via Teams, how do you manage your time effectively to ensure that you do the work in the time that's given, but also you're able to articulate when you need extra time in that? 

The third thing, I would say, is start having routine habits of documenting your career success.  So, every time you do something well, you document it, keeping an Excel spreadsheet with the date, the time, the project, the outcome and the result.  In addition to this, when you get emails and stuff praising you for the work you've done, keep that backlog of emails because for two instances: one, if you're ever feeling down or not feeling good enough or you feel like you're not progressing, you can always look back at the emails that talked about the work you did and you delivering it well; and the second thing is, when it comes to performance review, it means that when you're talking to your manager, you can be like, "Oh, when I delivered this work, this is the piece of feedback that I received, here it is", and it really helps to strengthen your profile within your organisation and ensure that everybody else around you knows what you're doing. 

So, I think one of the biggest traps is we just do the work, hope that other people see that we're doing the work.  But if you don't remember what you did a year ago, how do you expect everybody else to do so? 

Helen Tupper: You've mentioned the role of mentors when you were starting, and I would imagine it's still important for you now, but particularly in that point where you're starting.  How did you approach finding a mentor? 

Yemurai Rabvukwa: I think when it comes to mentorship, you need to be able to find a common ground in which you're going to approach them for mentorship.  For example, I work in cybersecurity.  In order for me to find a mentor within that field, I probably need to identify people who I think could be good mentors, open those lines of communication from a, "Hi, hello, how are you doing?  Would love to know more about your work", and just building that rapport to begin with.  And then you can invite them to be like, "Oh, do you know what, I really enjoyed our conversations.  Do you have capacity for me to be your mentee?" and I think it works really well.  By you joining business resource groups or you attending any events that your organisation may have where you're meeting people in these environments, you build that rapport with them, they get to see you physically and they understand who you are, they're going to be more welcoming to you inviting them to be your mentor. 

They're really important because if there's ever a situation at work, you can be like, "Is this the best way?  Is this expected?  What would you recommend?" and they can give you advice based on their previous experiences.  But I think the thing about approaching a mentor builds that relationship first based on a common ground, and then they're going to be more receptive to inviting you to be their mentee.

Helen Tupper: I started out on a graduate scheme, so of the three options, that was the one that I went into.  But when I started, I was with people every day, we were in the office.  I mean, my first job was in sales, I was driving around all the time.  But I think a lot of people starting now are starting in a team that isn't in the office every day, all that learning isn't at their desk with all the people that are around them, they have to work a bit harder.  And I just wondered if you've got any advice on learning, building relationships, building your brand when you're not physically with people every day? 

Yemurai Rabvukwa: Value the time you get to spend in person with your work colleagues when you can, if it's hybrid.  I think it's really, really, really important in the early stages of your career, where you can be in person, be in person so that you develop those in-person interactions.  If that's not feasible, the next best thing I would suggest that you do is to schedule in coffee chats, informal coffee chats, maybe at a time that they're not busy, just to have a chat about them, what they do, their interests, so that you start to build those relationships and especially with people in your team, let's say you're in a virtual meeting and they say something, you might message them and say, "Oh, I can help you with that", or, "If you need any support in that, I'm available". 

So, I think in some cases, when you start off, it might be an informal chat, but later you might have an agenda set so that they know what they're going to bring to the conversation and how they can help you, and vice versa as well. 

Helen Tupper: You're such a star, thank you.  I think your advice is so specific and so practical.  If people want to connect with you, follow your journey and also follow your words of wisdom, where can people go? 

Yemurai Rabvukwa: So, I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram.  On Instagram, I share loads of opportunities.  So, if you're a graduate or even a career changer who wants to make a change into tech more specifically, I'm always showing resources and tips.  And I'm on TikTok and YouTube as well.  So, on LinkedIn, I'm yemurai-r and on the other platforms I'm STEM babe.

Helen Tupper: So, I hope you enjoyed that.  I wish I had been that clear and confident at that particular stage in my career.  I think I was still trying to work things out, where Yemurai's got a lot of things sorted.  So, hopefully you've got that insight from her too.  So, Sarah, where are we going next? 

Sarah Ellis: So, you're going to hear me talk to another Sarah, so apologies for the double Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: You just collect Sarahs! 

Sarah Ellis: I do collect Sarahs, I do feel like I do sometimes!  So, Sarah Gregory is the Senior Delivery Project Manager at upReach.  As Helen mentioned at the start of the episode, they're a social mobility charity, and they particularly support undergraduates who are graduating but who come from disadvantaged backgrounds, to get into what they describe as top jobs, is the way that I would think of it.  And actually, a really compelling stat that they share is, a student from a disadvantaged background who gains a first-class degree from a top university is less likely to secure an elite job than a more privileged student with a 2-2.  So, I think that is very disheartening, but that is why they exist, to support people to get people who've got brilliant degrees into brilliant jobs so they can have an impact.  And obviously, they have the advantage, so Sarah has the advantage of working with lots of this community, so she sees firsthand both their experiences of getting a job, so she's going to talk a little bit about that; and then also, once you're in that job, what can help you, regardless of where you've come from or what you've done before.  I think she has some really useful reflections on what you tell yourself, so staying confident and keeping belief in yourself, but also just how to stand out in what can be a really competitive market. 

Sarah, thank you so much for joining us on the Squiggly Careers podcast.  I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. 

Sarah Gregory: Thank you so much, I'm really happy to be here. 

Sarah Ellis: So, you work with lots of people going into their first jobs, and particularly you work with people who are from a disadvantaged background who are going into really quite high-pressured, really impressive jobs.  What do you hear from people when they're first starting out in their new roles?  How are they feeling; what are they excited about; but also, what are they worried about? 

Sarah Gregory: This is such a fantastic and exciting moment in a young person's career journey, it's the first step.  You've worked so hard at university, you've put in so much effort there, and then you've finally got your degree, you've secured that graduate role as well, which is so demanding and competitive.  So, first of all it's a feeling of accomplishment, especially if you are from a more underprivileged background and there have been different barriers in your way to be able to access that achievement.  We then move from that achievement and you've got the summer, and then you start your new job.  Something here I think that is really daunting is that you're going from one environment, which is you're taught, you turn up but you don't turn up that many days a week, and then you go into a full-time job.

I remember for myself my own experience, I was a couple of months into my first job, and my manager asked how I was doing and my answer was, "I'm just really tired".  And that was just because there was so much learning and also, as I said, I had to be there five days a week.  Of course, we're in more of a hybrid environment now so it's slightly different.  But also, being from a lower socioeconomic background, you might have also not had those experiences in the workplace, so you're coming into a completely new environment where you're not as familiar.  And something that can be really overwhelming at first is those unwritten rules of the workplace.  And what I mean by these are things like the norms, the cultural norms you get used to and you pick up.  But when you're first starting and you don't have the network, you don't have maybe a mum or dad to ask, what do I wear; how do I communicate with others; how do I send emails; how do I send a professional email?  That is something that can be difficult at first and is a steep learning curve.  And this can definitely also have knock-on effects with the unwritten rules of the workplace.  If you're feeling quite isolated and you're feeling those symptoms of imposter syndrome, it can definitely build up and up, it can be very difficult. 

Lastly, I would say another key theme that we hear a lot from our alumni are the financial barriers, which I don't think is spoken about as much as unwritten rules of the workplace.  But if you've just finished university, you might have been living at home or living in accommodation, you might be moving to a new city to take this job, which as I said is a really exciting experience, but also is financial pressure.  You're having to move with potentially not a lot of money, you're then also having to buy a new wardrobe, all of those professional clothes that you might not have.  You might have one suit that you wear to interviews or one professional looking work dress.  But then having to build that wardrobe, move to a new place and set yourself up is also another key theme that we hear.

Sarah Ellis: How can employers help?  So, if you've got people starting in your team or your organisation, and you're thinking, "Well, I can't remember being that age now", you're not in that lived-experience moment, what are some good advice or top tips for if you're someone like me going, "Oh, maybe we've got someone joining Amazing If, it's their first ever job", what would you be saying to me so that I can do a good job in helping them to succeed?

Sarah Gregory: I think you're in a good position if you're listening to this podcast.  It shows that you care and you want to do better, which is the first step.  Secondly, I would say, yeah, definitely trying to continue to upskill yourself and here, those experiences are really important.  In terms of practical advice I could give to an employer, manager, a leader in the organisation, is first of all being clear in your expectations, so what are the deliverables?  What do you expect from me?  What do you want to get out of me in my first couple of months?  And then secondly, the workplace norms, so those unwritten rules.  Be clear with me about them, whether that's through a handbook where you can talk through different things as in, "This is how we communicate [maybe] over Slack, this is how we use Teams, this is how we use emails", so somebody is able to pick that up a little bit quicker. 

Secondly, that sort of inclusive and welcoming culture.  Senior leaders in particular, I would really encourage you to think about how you can get involved in staff networks.  Staff networks are a really fantastic resource for young people starting out in their first jobs, gives them that ready-made community.  And that senior leadership buy-in shows that you care and also ensures that it's not an echo chamber of people with the same opinions, but that there's going to be impact afterwards, the senior leadership is there listening, and they are going to make sure there's change if anything comes up. 

I would also say, in terms of further support that you could offer, buddy systems and mentoring, particularly considering, is there a way that you could introduce role models through this?  So, if you've got a new starter and they are from a lower socioeconomic background or a different gender or ethnicity, is there a way that you could match them with a mentor who has had those similar experiences in the workplace?  It gives them somebody that looks like them, potentially talks like them, who has been successful and helps to motivate, but also gives somebody to go to with those problems.  And finally, I would say continue to consider those career development opportunities, and think about how you can align your goals and what deliverables you want to see from this person with training opportunities, thinking about not just the technical skills but also those soft skills, what can I really support you with, and continuing to offer feedback and coaching throughout.

Sarah Ellis: A learning curve in any new job is always really steep, we know that for the first six months.  So, imagine if it's not just a new job, but it's your first job.  I feel almost that learning curve gets even steeper as a result because there's just so much more to absorb, which is why, as you described, people probably feel really tired.  You do feel really drained and also you probably want to be looking out for, I think as a manager, how are people feeling, how much are people working.  You almost don't want people to be doing too much extra because there'll be so much that they're absorbing in that day. 

I'm really interested, I was thinking a bit about when you described when someone starts inductions and that process, what have you noticed in terms of, and you mentioned earlier, more people working hybrid, more people working remote?  And there's lots of assumptions I think people make about that, in terms of for younger people, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, and I think I've seen people argue quite strongly both ways.  What have you noticed in terms of people starting out?  How has that changed maybe that experience?  And has it been good, is it bad, or is it mixed? 

Sarah Gregory: Yeah I think it's definitely a mixed picture.  If we consider work-life balance, it can definitely either improve somebody's work-life balance, when they shut their laptop, they're at home and they can go out and do different things, they don't have to spend 45 minutes to an hour commuting.  It can also worsen somebody's work-life balance, because you're more tempted to stay online. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, no boundaries. 

Sarah Gregory: Yeah, also if you have something like Teams and you're very conscious that people might be watching that green, making sure it doesn't turn to red, or on Slack.  I think another aspect here is for employers and for people who are starting out in the workplace, is the concern that if you are not seen then you are not working, and there's a perceived lack of commitment from somebody who isn't going into the workplace.  And I know we're seeing that more now, in the news and seeing so many articles about CEOs saying, "We're going to be back in the office".  And for some people, that can be helpful, if we consider the digital divide as well, and having access to Wi-Fi, having access to a calm environment to at home; if you have to look after children and it's half term and they're running around everywhere and you're trying to have a meeting but also manage your life and those responsibilities you have. 

So, yeah, I think it's definitely a mixed picture, and if you are from a lower socioeconomic background and those unwritten rules do come into place, you can become quite concerned around that perceived lack of commitment, "Am I doing as much as I should be doing?"  When you're in the office, you can see when people finish working.  Virtually, that is a lot more difficult.

Sarah Ellis: I was thinking about, again, as a manager, as a leader, what can you do?  I always feel asking rather than assuming is a good place to start.  So, I think sometimes I might assume someone would love to work from home because then they've got the flexibility.  But actually, you don't always know someone's situation or what works best for them.  And I think to your point on clear expectations, as a team manager or as a leader, letting the whole team know, "Well, this is how we're going to manage if we do work in a hybrid way.  So, maybe the expectation is we all come in on a Tuesday because that's the day we do team meetings and get-togethers, and beyond that, talk to me about what pattern works best for you". 

So, last question.  So, if you're listening and you are now starting out and someone's in their first 100 days, so we've talked about how you're feeling and trying to get clear expectations, and I do think that first 100 days often can set the tone and you don't want people to be losing confidence during that time, any other advice you'd give to somebody when they're like, "Right, I want to set myself up for success this first three-and-a-bit months", because then after that, it does all start to fall into place a bit more; anything else people should be thinking about?

Sarah Gregory: Yeah, I think I'm going to start with probably something a little bit more like emotional support and then moving into more of that practical advice.  First of all, you have got the job that you've worked really hard for.  That should fill you with so much confidence.  You've been hired for a reason and make sure you keep that in mind.  Your employer can support you with those technical skills that you'll need to develop on the job.  What they can't teach you is motivation and passion and drive.  So, make sure you're showing them that.  Ask the questions, be curious, get to know people around you, get to understand their role and how it intersects with your role.  Also continue to think about that ongoing skill development.  So, what does your university offer?  A lot of universities have fantastic alumni programmes, where they offer lots of different events and skill development sessions, as well as career coaching.  What can you take from that?  How can you continue to develop there? 

Secondly, using LinkedIn, connecting with people before you even join the job, maybe reaching out if you know somebody's going to be in the same team as you, connect with them on LinkedIn, drop them a message.  It can feel very overwhelming and you're worried about how that might be perceived, but a lot of the time people are really happy to take 30 minutes or a quick Zoom call or a quick coffee to talk about the workplace and talk about themselves.  I would also consider, as we've been talking throughout, this is a big change and although you've worked really hard to get here, but also make sure you're looking after yourself.  Consider that mental health support.  There's a lot of charities.  Make sure you're having a look at that, reach out if you need help.  And a lot of employers as well have their own systems in place, so an employee assistance programme, where you can seek that mental health support. 

Sarah Ellis: Young Minds is a good charity who I've come across before, so that they might be a good one to look at if you're looking for more support with mental health, wellbeing, those kinds of areas.  And like you say, actually organisations often offer more than you think but sometimes people just don't know about it.  So, again, don't be afraid to ask and just say, "Are there things that we can get involved in?"  And I think if there are things that you're interested in, if you've got personal passions, often bringing those into the jobs that you do, people really appreciate.  And, Sarah, we finish all of our expert interviews with a final question, which is more about your words of wisdom.  So, if you were leaving our listeners now with your best piece of career advice, so maybe something that someone's told you and it's just been really helpful, or just something out of your own head, some words to live by, what would you to share with our listeners?

Sarah Gregory: Especially at the start of your career, take every opportunity.  You'll have so many opportunities, whether that's relocating to a different country, taking on a new project at work, having a new manager, see everything as a new challenge and a new way to continue to learn.  Make sure you meet all of them with motivation and passion.  And you'll do some things that you don't like; that is still a good learning and make sure you just continue to drive and find your motivation.

Sarah Ellis: Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today on the Squiggly Careers podcast.  All the links to upReach, to the work that upReach do, and lots more support for anyone starting out in their careers are in the show notes and also in the toolkit.  But thanks, Sarah, it's been brilliant to get all your insights and expertise today.

Sarah Gregory: Thank you so much for having me.

Sarah Ellis: So, I hope you found that conversation with Sarah interesting and I'd really encourage you to look at the work that upReach do.  Maybe it might be for you personally, they're upreach.org.uk and that link will be in the toolkit.  Or maybe this is something you could share with someone else, or maybe you're in an organisation where actually you could host things like insight days or internships for students from disadvantaged backgrounds.  And I know upReach are always keen to talk to more organisations. 

Helen Tupper: That is the end of this episode, it's the first one in our Squiggly Career Stage Series.  So, if you've got any feedback, let us know, or any recommendations that you think, actually, if people are at this stage, they should be aware of.  You can always email us.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  We've pulled everything that we have found together into the guide that you can download.  We will link to it in the show notes or you can get it from amazingif.com on the podcast page.  Also worth following us on LinkedIn because we're going to be posting all those resources on LinkedIn on the Amazing If page throughout the week. 

Sarah Ellis: Don't forget, we've got four other episodes as part of the Squiggly Career Stages Series, on returners, setbacks, changers and continuers.  So, please check those out or share those with people if you think they might be useful.  But that's everything for now.  Thanks so much for listening, and we're back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.