Timestamps

00:00:00: Announcement!

00:00:59: Introduction

00:02:49: What it means to be sensitive

00:04:17: Why sensitivity is viewed as a negative trait

00:05:19: Questions to ask yourself to discover if you're sensitive

00:07:28: The benefit sensitive people bring to businesses

00:12:40: How the workplace may work against sensitive people

00:16:28: Dealing with change in big organisations

00:17:23: Managing sensitive people, and job-crafting

00:22:01: Sensitive people setting themselves up for success

00:24:34: Seven types of rest

00:26:35: Final tip, and Jenn's career advice

00:28:57: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi everybody, it's Helen from the Squiggly Careers podcast and before today's episode starts, I want to let you know about some news that Sarah and I are really excited about.  Ten years ago in October was the moment that Squiggly started.  We sat down together, a squiggle was drawn on a napkin and this idea to help people with their careers came to life.  Since then, things have grown a bit, and we would love to celebrate that growth with you.  On 17 October we will be holding Squiggly Careers Live in London. 

The show starts at 7.00pm.  We've got four brilliant guests who are going to be talking to us about meaning, motivation and money.  Come and join us!  Tickets are limited, they are £30 each, and there will be a chance to connect and talk to each other after the event as well.  All the details are on our website, amazingif.com/squiggly, so we hope to see you there.  And now let's get on with today's episode. Hi, I'm Helen from the Squiggly Careers podcast.  This is a weekly podcast where we talk about the ins, outs, ups and downs of work to give you a little bit more clarity, some controls, some tools to support your self-development. 

And ordinarily, I say "we", because it's normally me talking to Sarah about all things Squiggly Careers, but this episode is one of our Ask the Expert episodes, and today's topic is Sensitivity.  I am talking to Jenn Granneman on the episode today, who is the co-author of a book called Sensitive.  It's a book that I got gifted about four months ago now, and I absolutely loved it.  I've got Post-it Notes all over this book.  So I was like, "Oh, that's really interesting", and there's ways that you can self-assess your sensitivity in the book, there's ways that you can create environments where sensitive people can thrive at work in the book, and that is what Jenn and I dive into in this episode today. So, whether you're thinking, "Oh, I'm a sensitive person, what could I do differently to help with my development?" or whether you're thinking, "Oh, how could I help other people to be at their best at work that might identify as being more sensitive?" we are covering it all in this episode today.  Some of the things we talk about are going to be summarised in the PodSheet.  So, if you want some of the ideas for action, some of the links and things that myself and Jenn reference, download that; it's on our website, amazingif.com.  Just go to the podcast page and you'll find it, and I will also link it in the show notes as well.  But let's get onto the episode and my conversation with Jenn. Hi Jenn, and welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.

Jenn Granneman: Hi, I'm so excited to be here.

Helen Tupper: I'm really excited too.  I didn't know we were going to get a chance to talk.  When I first read your book, I was like, "Gosh, this book is really interesting".  And then sometimes, that doesn't actually transpire to me getting the opportunity to talk to someone.  So, I'm really happy that I get to meet the person behind the book and talk about the topic that I found really intriguing.  I know our listeners will as well.

Jenn Granneman: Oh, thank you, yeah, that's such a nice compliment.  Thank you.

Helen Tupper: So, the book is all about being sensitive.  One of the things that struck me when I was reading it, particularly the first couple of chapters, probably the first chapter, I was like, "Oh, maybe I have had a very narrow definition so far of what it means to be sensitive", because I really feel that you kind of expand what it means when someone is sensitive.  So, to start with, when we're describing someone as a sensitive person, what do we actually mean; what does it mean from your perspective?

Jenn Granneman: Right, so I think you're not alone in having a narrow idea of what sensitivity is.  I found that when I was writing my book, a lot of people had misconceptions about what it means to be a sensitive person.  They thought it meant that you cried all the time, or that you were someone who got easily offended.  But that's not what we're saying when we're talking about the trait of sensitivity.  So, if you're a sensitive person or a highly sensitive person, it simply means your body and mind respond more to the world around you.  You respond more to heartbreak, pain, and loss, but you also respond more to beauty, new ideas, and joy.  So, in other words, your mind is wired to go deep, where other people's might only skim the surface.  And a lot of this deep processing that you do is automatic and unconscious, so you might not even realise that you're doing it.  But sensitive people pick up on details around them, they might pick up on other people's emotions or social cues, and they generally reflect on that information more, then their brains are able to do more with it.

Helen Tupper: You know what, that's really interesting.  Listening to you talk about it, I go, "Oh, that sounds brilliant", you know, sensitive people pick up on details that other people don't, and sensitive people are really good at deep processing.  I'm like, "Wow!"  But I don't think that is a commonly held belief at work.  I don't think we go around a corporate environment going, "Oh, isn't it great to be sensitive?"  In fact, I think sometimes it's used almost quite a negative, like, "Oh, Helen's being a bit sensitive", you know, that kind of term.  Why do you think that is; why have we taken this trait of sensitivity and turned it into something almost seen as negative?

Jenn Granneman: I think it goes back to the misconceptions about sensitivity.  Sensitive people certainly do feel emotions in a strong way sometimes.  So yeah, maybe sometimes they are getting tears in their eyes at work, or maybe they are reacting to something a little bit more, or needing a little extra time to answer a question, or needing a little extra time to adapt to some sort of change.  We've looked at the downsides or the challenges of sensitivity and we haven't been celebrating the gifts and the strengths of it enough.

Helen Tupper: How do I know if I am sensitive?  One of the things that I was reading in the book that I thought was really interesting was quite a long list of really good questions to ask of yourself to see whether you identify as a sensitive person.  What are some of those questions that people listening could ask themselves if they're like, "Oh, do I process deeply?  Do I tune into some of those things that you're talking about?"  What sort of things do they ask themselves to identify as a sensitive person?

Jenn Granneman: There is a good checklist in our book in the first chapter, so I would encourage people to turn there if they want the whole checklist, but I can give you a rundown of some of those things on the checklist.  If you're a sensitive person, you might pause before acting so that your brain can have time to do its work; you are someone who might notice subtle details, like a slight difference in shade between brush strokes on a painting, or an expression that just quickly vanishes from your co-worker's face; if you're sensitive, you might feel strong emotions, you might have a hard time shaking intense emotions like anger or worry. But on the flip side, you feel joy and happiness in a more intense way; you have a lot of empathy, even towards strangers, or maybe people you only hear about in the news; sensitive people easily put themselves in other people's shoes; and then, as a result of that empathy and those strong emotions, other people's moods can really affect you, you might absorb emotions from other people and almost take on their feelings in your own body as if you're feeling them yourself.  But, you know, there are some challenges to sensitivity. 

So if you're a sensitive person, you might feel stressed or fatigued in loud, busy environments, like let's say, a crowded shopping mall, a concert, a restaurant, or just maybe like a bustling office that can be draining and fatiguing to a sensitive person.  So you need a lot of downtime to maintain your energy. If you're sensitive, even if you're an extroverted sensitive person, you can be introverted or extroverted, even if you consider yourself to be extroverted and sensitive, you might still need to withdraw from other people sometimes so that you can calm your senses down and process your thoughts, because that downtime is really important.  There's more, but I will leave it at that for now.

Helen Tupper: I guess from a work perspective, you know, I was talking about, I think this is almost the traditional narrative about, "That person's a bit sensitive".  Like I say, it's almost a bit derogatory about what that trait can mean.  But when I was reading the book, you're really explicit about actually that sensitive people bring huge benefit to organisations.  Like, if we can treat this trait as a talent, then actually we can really acknowledge the value it brings to teams.  And so I wonder if you can share a little bit about if we create an environment where sensitivity is seen as a talent, what is the benefit that brings to businesses?

Jenn Granneman: Yeah, I think there's a huge benefit sensitive people can bring to businesses.  There was an interesting study that we talked about in the book.  It found that sensitive people were often named among the top performers in the workplace.  But on the other hand, they were also the ones who were feeling the most burned out.  So, we've got these high performers, and they're also feeling the stress of the work environment.  So, sensitive people, they can bring a lot of amazing talents to the workplace. If you're someone who notices details, right, well, you're going to notice things that other people miss.  If you're someone who is a warm and empathetic person, you're going to be able to have good relationships with the people around you.  And sensitive people are often good at, I like to say predicting things, right?  Not that they're mind readers or fortune tellers, but they notice patterns and trends and details, their minds are often very intuitive.  So, often they can be the one who can say, "Hey, this might be what's coming down the road", and I think some of that future forecasting can be really helpful in certain roles too.  Basically sensitive people, they can provide a lot of strengths and I really hope that we can get past this idea that sensitivity is something that you don't want to be, and instead start celebrating those strengths of sensitive people.

Helen Tupper: I really like the point about future forecasting, because I guess they're seeing things in different people's perspectives, they're able to see those scenarios and think them through and kind of maybe an assessment of the impact.  That's such important talent because I think work is so busy, and I say this as sort of like a busy-brained person.  I don't think I am a sensitive person.  I hope it means I'm not insensitive, but I don't think I am a sensitive person.  My brain is very tuned into the now and the doing, and I really admire a lot of what you're saying about what sensitive people can bring.  I don't think they are some of my natural talents. So, I think my business partner, Sarah, I think she is a sensitive person.  I actually haven't asked and answered all the questions in the book, but I should do that afterwards.  But I think together we are better, because I'm kind of pacey and in the moment and I'll suggest things.  But I think because she is a sensitive person, she considers the implications of it more than me. 

She sort of sees the ripples of my role a little bit more than I do, and it's really, really helpful, because I kind of have that drive and that clarity and that momentum and she has the sensitivity to see the impact of it all in a way that I don't automatically do.  And I see that, I'm like, if that's me and Sarah, you know, we're a small team and a small company, but if you take that to a large organisation, you have that respect for what different people bring and you build teams based on that kind of diversity.  I really think that that leads to better outcomes.

Jenn Granneman: Oh, I love that.  Yeah, I mean, she definitely sounds like a sensitive person from the little that I'm hearing about her.  But yeah, it kind of goes back to the idea to have sensitive people reflecting more on things, you know, needing a little more time themselves to answer a question or process what's going on around them.  A lot of times they can be the ones who are saying, "Okay, hold on a minute.  Let's wait, everybody.  Slow it down, calm it down.  Let's take a minute to reflect on this before we make a decision".  And I think that can bring really good balance to certain teams.

Helen Tupper: I don't know if you've done any research in the area, but a couple of months ago, we did a podcast on Neurodiversity in the Workplace.  And we had a really interesting person talking to us, Dr Samantha Hiew, about ADHD.  In my head, I'm sort of joining a few dots between what you're saying about sensitive people are processing an awful lot of information because they're absorbing so much around them because of that stimulation, and it really resonates with me with what Samantha was saying about, people with ADHD, they're doing that all the time, they're so stimulated by what's going on around them.  And she also talked about very high performing, but often very prone to burnout, and that could be, for someone with ADHD, that was kind of a pattern of their behaviour because absorbing so much, high-achieving, burnout, and then it's a repeated pattern.  Have you seen anything that connects, or the sensitivity and maybe some of those elements of neurodiversity at all in your work?

Jenn Granneman: I can't say that I know that there is any connection between sensitivity and ADHD, as in like, "Oh, people who are sensitive are more likely to have ADHD", or something like that.  I don't know of any connection like that.  I do consider sensitivity to be a form of neurodiversity and I can certainly see some of the connections between processing a lot of information but also feeling burned out.  That's an interesting topic to consider.

Helen Tupper: So just in terms of work then, when I'm thinking about sensitivity as a talent in work, are there things that are common ways that we structure work or manage work, I don't know, if that's from meetings to the way that managers do things, that maybe work against people who have sensitivity as traits or as a talent, as I might like to think about it; is there anything that sort of happens as a bit of a norm which isn't really very helpful?

Jenn Granneman: Yeah, I think there are some things that take place in the typical workplace that make it challenging for sensitive people.  I think sometimes just the pace of the work environment can be tough for sensitive people because, like we've talked about, sensitive people like to take their time.  They like to reflect on things.  Sometimes they can even be a bit of a perfectionist, right?  A lot of times they will dislike that feeling of being rushed and they prefer to do things carefully.  And of course, you don't have to be a sensitive person to not like being rushed, but being rushed tends to add an extra layer of stimulation to the sensitive person on top of all the other stimulation they're already taking in. I think sometimes, just being in an environment where there are a lot of people can feel draining to a sensitive person, so maybe if you're in the office and there's people around you, or even just you're doing a lot of online meetings in a day; you're taking in all that information all that social information, you're taking in information about the other person's state of mind, their mood, their emotions, and you're reflecting on it all.  And if you're a sensitive person, you have empathy, you're perhaps thinking about that other person's perspective.  And just doing that all day long, repeatedly, that can be really tiring.

I was a teacher for a few years before I returned back to a writing career.  I love my students, but it was really draining for me just to deal with all the emotions happening in the classroom in any given day.  And then I think sometimes just the physical environment itself can be draining for sensitive people.  You know, our workspace is not necessarily introvert-friendly, or not introvert-friendly, sensitive person-friendly, but also not introvert-friendly.  We were talking about introverts earlier, so now that's on my brain.  But you know, the lights, the noise, just kind of the grey, drab decor, maybe chairs that are uncomfortable, or just overhearing coworkers constantly, although I know a lot of people are working remotely these days.  So, I think on some level, that can help alleviate some of those physical environment concerns.  But it isn't always easy to work from home too, because maybe you share a space with other people, maybe you have neighbours who are making noise.  So yeah, when your brain takes in so much and it's processing so much, everyday or common things that wouldn't necessarily drain someone else can feel draining to a sensitive person.

Helen Tupper: It makes me think about those companies that I've worked in and the people that I've worked with.  I think I've worked in some really large organisations where lots of change has gone on.  I worked with Microsoft, for example, during the largest organisational change.  It does make me think, for a sensitive person, I'm going to call myself insensitive, but for me as an insensitive person --

Jenn Granneman: I would not call you insensitive!

Helen Tupper: I know, I don't know what to call myself.

Jenn Granneman: Call yourself whatever you want.

Helen Tupper: But basically, I really appreciate the talent, but I don't think it's me naturally.  So, I go through those periods of change, really significant change, and I think part of me kind of says, "Oh, this is just what big organisations do, it's just what we go through in the work here, we've just got to kind of find our way through this", and that's sort of my boundaries around it.  But it really makes me think, actually a sensitive person, probably feeling more of this impact for themselves, because more of this is affecting them in more ways.  But I would imagine they're also feeling other people's emotions too. So, those periods of change in large organisations are probably much harder for a sensitive person to go through than somebody like me, who I'm going to categorise as insensitive.  I don't think I absorb quite so much.  So, the other stimulation and what other people might be sort of experiencing, it's not natural that that kind of comes to me.

Jenn Granneman: Yeah, that makes sense.  Change can be extra challenging for sensitive people because when things are changing, there's new stimulation to deal with.  There's new procedures, there's new ways of doing things, new routines, new concepts to understand.  The sensitive brain is very hardworking and change means new information to take in.  Change is hard for everyone, right?  But if you're sensitive, it can add an extra layer of complication.

Helen Tupper: If you were a manager, so obviously a red flag of where someone might need some more support might be in times of change, because a sensitive person might find there's more stimulation in that situation, so might need some different support, so that could be a bit of a red flag for a manager.  But if a manager is thinking, "What could I do differently?  I haven't really thought about sensitivity in this way before.  I want to make sure that I help the people in my team and sensitive people in my team to be at their best", what could they do in terms of how they might manage the working week or the meetings that they do, that could help set everybody, but especially in this context, sensitive people, up for success?

Jenn Granneman: Every sensitive person is different.  So if there are managers listening to this, I would say, talk to your sensitive employees, ask them directly what they need, because each one of them might say something a little different.  But in general, I think sensitive people do well when they have more time, time to adapt to change, right, more time to complete a project or even respond to an email or respond to a question.  That's not to say that we just let sensitive people miss deadlines or something like that, but a lot of times their minds just need a little extra beat or a little extra time to reflect before making a decision. I think sensitive people are also especially tuned in to the emotions and the relationships in any kind of team.  So, if there's some sort of toxicity in the team environment, I think that can get really wearing on sensitive people.  A lot of times we talk about, "The lights are too bright and the noises are too loud", and that is true to some extent, but those physical things are easier to fix, right?  Turn the lights down or maybe wear headphones or, you know, they're a little more straightforward to fix.  But I think it's a lot of times those emotions and those relationships that are not so straightforward, simple fixes that can be wearing on sensitive people.  So, I would have regular check-ins with sensitive employees, make sure they feel safe and comfortable coming to you with concerns, and just overall try to cultivate an emotionally and mentally healthy work culture for them.

Helen Tupper: In the book as well, you mentioned that managers could help give people permission to job-craft, and that permission to craft their roles could also be quite an important way of engaging a sensitive person.  Could you share a little bit more about why that is; why does job-crafting work for sensitive people particularly well?

Jenn Granneman: Yeah, so I think sensitive people often have that mind toward thinking about how something can be improved.  And so job-crafting gives them a chance to change the way they do tasks or maybe even change some of the tasks they do.  Job-crafting also can help them, you know, just change who they might interact with or how they might interact with those people.  And a lot of times it's just a little change that might make a big difference for a sensitive person.  Maybe it's allowing them to block out a few hours every day to have uninterrupted time to work instead of scheduling meetings during that time or expecting email or Slack responses. I think sensitive people are often particularly drawn to finding meaning in their work.  And of course, right, everybody wants to do work that's meaningful.  Nobody wants to feel like their job is meaningless or the effort they're doing is for nothing.  But sensitive people often have a really strong desire for meaning in their work.  There was some interesting research that we talk about in the book about how a researcher followed around janitors in a hospital.  And those who were happy about their jobs were the ones who had found ways to think about their jobs in a more meaningful way.  So their work wasn't just sweeping the hall or cleaning the toilets, they were thinking about their job in terms of, "I'm creating an environment that are going to help patients heal and recover".  So, they were thinking about the larger purpose behind the actions they were taking every day. In that way, I think sensitive people can look for the meaning that they have in their jobs, maybe by thinking about the larger purpose of their work.  Anytime we can find that personal meaning, like "I did something today that made someone's day go a little smoother.  Maybe I didn't cure world hunger, but I made someone's day go a little smoother today by what I did".  So, any way that we can find that meaning or craft that meaning into our work, I think is going to help sensitive people in the workplace.

Helen Tupper: What else do you think a sensitive person could do to set themselves up for success?

Jenn Granneman: While we talked about job-crafting, we talked about looking for meaningful work, I think overstimulation tends to be something that sensitive people struggle with in the workplace.  Like I said, they need a little bit more time to process and work can be fast paced.  There can be a lot of demands, projects to complete, people who need your attention.  So, I think sensitive people really need to protect themselves from overstimulation, even to take a look and say, am I chronically overstimulated?  Is my job creating chronic overstimulation in me, which puts chronic stress on the body?  We're all going to deal with overstimulation from time to time, whether we're sensitive or not, but sensitive people are more susceptible to it. So, I think sensitive people need to have good routines and rituals to help them calm over stimulation because it's going to happen, right?  Like, no matter what you do to try to protect your time and take care of yourself, it's going to happen because things happen.  So, I like to encourage sensitive people to tune into their body and their emotions.  I think a lot of times we've been trained to ignore signals from our bodies.  We push through when we're tired, we don't stop to eat when we're hungry, or we dismiss feelings that come up when we're interacting with a particular person, because we've been told to toughen up, we've been told our emotions are too big or we're overreacting.  So, a lot of times sensitive people have been trained to ignore those signals. I think one of the best things that sensitive people can do is to just start tuning in and trying to notice before they really tip over into full-blown overstimulation, right?  Maybe they can feel their stress meter rising a little bit and before they become very overstimulated, that's when they want to take a break or do some self-care or step away for a moment or do whatever helps them to feel more emotionally regulated.

Jenn Granneman: I think sometimes it's about moving on, you know, all that kind of pace is like on to the next thing, on to the next thing.  And I think it's really interesting that rather than move on, that tune-in is a really important thing for a sensitive person to know, but also a manager maybe to make time for, like you need to give that person that space.  It's not like they're moving on all the time, it's not going to help a sensitive person feel their best. I was talking earlier about collecting dots and connecting dots, listening to you, it's reminding me, ages ago, a couple of years ago now, we had someone on a podcast called Alex Pang, who's written a book called Rest, and he talks about this idea of active rest, and the more I got into it, there was a great TED Talk about the seven different types of rest.  And I wonder whether it might be, I don't know if you've come across it, or it might be helpful to people, but it talks about there's different types of rest that we might need.  So, there might be mental rest, like you've got so much thinking, there's a new project going on; or for example, sensory rest that we've talked about; or sometimes, it might be emotional rest, if you're with a lot of people who maybe you're carrying a lot of people's emotions; or spiritual rest, like maybe you're feeling like you haven't got that kind of sense of purpose, you're feeling a little bit lost.  And just in terms of that, stimulation can come from lots of different places, therefore the rest that people need might be quite specific. I might make sure -- we create a PodSheet for all of our episodes and just in case it helps people, I might link to that TED Talk, because if someone's feeling really overstimulated right now, then the type of rest they might need is probably quite specific to them.  And I think that TED Talk might help people identify what does good rest look like for me right now, as well as the points you're saying about tuning into how your body and mind is responding to the situation.

Jenn Granneman: Oh, I love that.  I want to see that TED Talk myself.

Helen Tupper: I will send it to you.  I'll send it to you after this conversation, because it's a good one.  It's one I go back to quite a lot, actually.  So, I think I'm definitely a lot clearer from having read the book and talking to you today, about sensitivity is a trait and a talent, and that what sensitive people can bring to the organisation is this ability to see things from other perspectives, to pick up on the detail, and to sort of dive a bit deeper; and that managers can help sensitive people by creating some space and helping them to craft their role around them; and that sensitive people themselves can help themselves to be at their best by tuning into how they're responding to situations and how they're feeling about it, perhaps rather than feeling that they have to move on really quickly.  Are there any other tips or insights that you think are important for people listening to know about sensitivity?

Jenn Granneman: One of the biggest messages I want to send is that sensitivity is a strength.  We often see it as a weakness, we see it as a flaw or something that needs to be fixed, but sensitive people have incredible strengths and a lot to offer the world, and I hope we can start seeing it as the gift and the benefit that it is.

Helen Tupper: I love that, thank you and that is a really lovely place to end, but before we do end, we always ask our guests on our podcast for a piece of advice that has helped them in their career and it can be connected to sensitivity, or it can be something completely different to that.  But is there a piece of advice as help to you that might help our listeners too?

Jenn Granneman: You know, I can speak to my own career.  I was a journalist for a few years, I did newspaper reporting and editing.  Then I jumped into marketing, then I jumped into teaching, and then I went back to writing and I started my first blog, called introvertdear.com, where I wrote about introversion and sensitivity.  And then slowly that started to take off, and I quit being a teacher and I started working for myself full time.  I would say don't be afraid to try things.  I had to jump around a lot in my time working, and I just kept looking for things that excited me.  And I kept tuning into myself too.  I loved teaching, I loved my students and the relationships I have with them, it felt very meaningful to me as a sensitive person.  Whereas, marketing just did not feel very meaningful to me. At the same time, being a teacher, it got really draining.  And for a while I wasn't honouring my body and honouring the fatigue that I felt at the end of the day.  So yeah, I just had to try a lot of different things, I had to fail at a lot of different things, I had to switch course a lot of times, but I just kept trying to tune in to myself and notice how my body reacted to different things and follow what I was excited about.

Helen Tupper: Feels like it's to try things and tune in, it's feels like it's a nice way of thinking about it.

Jenn Granneman: Yeah, that's a great summary.

Helen Tupper: It's also very supportive of the Squiggly Career philosophy as well, which is the moves we make allow us to collect lots of data for our development, and it sounds like you were doing lots of that too.

Jenn Granneman: I think I was.  Yeah, I think I was doing that on a personal level in my own life.

Helen Tupper: Jenn, thank you so much for talking to us about the book and your insights on the podcast.  We really, really appreciate your time, and I know this will connect with lots of people.  Other than finding the book, is there anywhere else that our listeners can go if they want to learn more?

Jenn Granneman: Yes, you can find me on Instagram under my name, @jenngranneman.  You can also visit my blog, introvertdear.com, like you're writing a letter.  And you can find my book, Sensitive, wherever books are sold.

Helen Tupper: Amazing.  Thank you.  And we'll put all the links to all of those things in both the show notes, the podcast, and also on the PodSheet that comes with the episode too.  Thank you so much again, Jenn.

Jenn Granneman: Awesome, thank you.  This was lovely.

Helen Tupper: Thank you so much for listening.  I hope you find it really interesting.  I hope it's made you think about sensitivity maybe slightly different than you did at the start of the episode.  As I said right at the start, if you want to get any of the links that we talked about, best place is the PodSheet; that is on our website, amazingif.com and go to the podcast page and you will find it.  And if you've got any feedback on the episode or suggestions for future episodes, just email us; we're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  But I will be back next week with lovely Sarah to talk to you about another topic on the podcast.  Bye for now.