Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:00: Why it's so hard to say no
00:03:52: The five stages of defiance
00:10:17: Questions on values
00:11:17: Gaining the confidence to defy
00:14:10: Starting small
00:17:24: The risk factor
00:24:44: Self-talk and the power of the pause
00:27:16: The most helpful actions
00:30:18: Sunita's career advice
00:32:21: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah and this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  This week you're going to hear me in conversation with Dr Sunita Sah, and she's going to be talking to us about how to say no in a world that often demands yes, and her new book, Defy.  I can promise you this is one of the most practical, useful and insightful conversations I've had about this topic.  Dr Sunita Sah is brilliant, she has so much to offer from her reflections and her research, and I think you're going to find this a really brilliant listen.  Whether it's something you want to get a bit better at or whether something you're just getting started with, I think there's something for everyone in today's episode.  I hope you enjoy listening, and we'll all be back at the end to say goodbye. 

Sunita, thank you so much for joining us on the Squiggly Careers podcast.  I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.

Dr Sunita Sah: Thank you very much for inviting me.  I'm excited to be here.

Sarah Ellis: So, your new book is called Defy, and the subtitle, which I particularly like, and I know from experience subtitles are hard to write, but yours is, "The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes".  And I remember reading that subtitle and straight away, I think you can think of examples of where you wish you'd said no, but for some reason you didn't, you said yes instead.  And very early on in your book, it really struck me that saying no is so hard because compliance and obedience is our default.  It took me back to being at school and growing up, right, and you don't want to get things wrong and you learn to follow rules and do what you're told.  I felt like we were conditioned to behave in that way.  That feels like often what's expected of us and the right thing to do.  Why is it so hard for us to say no?  Almost when we grow up, and I feel like we should have more agency and I should be able to make a choice, and yet it continues to be hard, even when we're not in that school setting.

Dr Sunita Sah: Yeah, I mean, there's numerous reasons, but you're right, for many of us, we were socialised to comply.  And that means when we were younger, we received those messages to be good, which really meant to obey, to be polite, to do as you're told, not make a scene.  Then, that becomes our default response, is to comply with other people, and our brains become wired to comply in a way.  And so, when we grow up, we're still operating on that system, especially if, like me, you had a masterclass in compliance, you're still operating on that system.  And even though you would like to say no and you feel tension, it becomes very difficult.

I've discovered multiple reasons for this, but one major reason that we find it difficult to say no, even when there's two consequences, is in my research, I've discovered a psychological process that makes it difficult for us to reject other people's suggestions, orders, or even expectations, because we don't want to signal to them that we don't trust them.  So, when you say no to someone, it's really sort of saying that you don't believe what they're suggesting that you do.  So, if your boss, for example, or your co-worker suggests that you take a particular action, if you say no, it's insinuating that they're incompetent or cannot be trusted or that they're even doing something inappropriate, and that becomes really difficult for us to do.  And I call that psychological process 'insinuation anxiety'.  It's the anxiety that we feel to insinuate that somebody is untrustworthy or incompetent.  And we don't want to do that for our advisors, our managers, our co-workers, or even our family or friends.  We find it really difficult to say no in those situations. 

Sarah Ellis: So, I think this is a tough process for us to learn and in lots of ways, as I was reading your book, I was thinking, "Okay, we've got to do some unlearning and relearning here.  We've got to let go of probably a way of working and a way of being that lots of us would be used to, and you've got to choose to do something different.  And I found it particularly helpful where you describe these five stages of defiance.  And even that word makes me feel a bit like, "Oh, I'm not sure I'm up for being defiant".  But actually, I think it's a, I don't know if 'gentle' is the right word, but it's a gentler definition I think as I read your description and the definition that you use.  So, I wonder, before we then dive into what this looks like and how we do it, I found those stages useful as a way of thinking, what does success look like?  What am I aiming for here?  So, I wondered if you could just talk us through briefly each of those five stages, so we all know together, "Okay, this is what I'm aiming for".  And then we'll talk about, "Well then, how do we do that?" 

Dr Sunita Sah: Just to first of all take a step back and really understand what I mean by defiance, because as you said, there is this negative connotation about defiance, especially when we're children, right?  Like, a defiant child is seen as a negative thing.  And I grew up believing that, because we start equating our socialisation that compliance equals good and defiance equals bad.  But when you delve into it, there's serious problems with compliance.  Even if we think about in the workplace, one survey found that nine out of ten healthcare workers on average, which is a huge amount, nine out of ten, most of them nurses, don't feel comfortable speaking up when they see a colleague or a physician making a mistake.  So, we really do want to think about what we're doing when we sacrifice our values or find it so difficult to speak up at certain times.  And there is a myth that defiance has to be loud, aggressive, violent.  But my definition of defiance is that it's simply acting in alignment with your values when there is pressure to do otherwise.  It's a skillset that's necessary and available for all of us. 

So, the five stages of defiance, the first stage is tension.  And that's when we feel that tension between what's expected of us and what we think is the right thing to do.  That tension can manifest in many different ways.  So, some people can feel it in their stomach, they can feel a dry mouth, their throat constricting, a headache.  So, there's many different ways that we feel that tension, but we can really try to understand what we feel in our own bodies, because that tension is actually a very useful warning sign for us that something is wrong and perhaps we do need to defy in this situation.  So, what we often do when we feel that tension is that we disregard it.  We think it's not worth our doubt or the other person probably knows better, especially if they're in authority.  And so, we try to sweep it away and we shouldn't do that.  We should move to the stage two of defiance, which is really acknowledging that tension to ourselves.  So, rather than disregarding it, we feel it and we acknowledge there's something I'm uncomfortable with.  So, that's just to yourself. 

Now we move to stage three, and this is a really critical stage and this is about vocalising that tension to somebody else or asking questions.  Why I say this is a critical stage is because the research shows that if you can get to this stage, where you externally vocalise your uncomfortable feeling or you're asking questions, then you're more likely to get to the last stage of defiance, stage five, because you can't go back in time now and say, "Oh, you were fine with it all along", because you've told someone now.  And so, that cognitive dissonance would be too much.  So, at this stage, you're still in a subservient position.  All you're saying is, "I'm not comfortable with this".  Or you're asking people, "What do you mean by that?  Can you clarify this?"  Or, "Have you considered this instead?"  So, you're asking questions.  This is not about confrontation, this is about curiosity in a way, curiosity and clarification. 

But why it's so important is that that clarification really raises the volume on the situation.  And so, you're not disregarding your attention, you're acknowledging it to yourself, and now you've vocalised some questions to someone else or some statements that, "I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this, I'm not quite sure about this".  Stage four, it could be seen as a threat of non-compliance, but you're simply saying, "I don't think I can do this.  I'm not comfortable with going ahead with this.  I can't do this".  And this is the stage where you have to continue to say that, but you can't just say it once and then if you're pressured, go back down again.  But if you stick to saying that, then you will get to the final stage of defiance, which is your act of defiance. 

Now, the wonderful thing about that is, right at the beginning, when I spoke about the tension at stage one, if we just try to disregard it, what I found in situations where, "Okay, I'm just going to go along with this", is that tension usually grows and you remember and you regret afterwards and you feel awful.  But if you can get to stage five of defiance, that tension just melts away.  It feels really good to act in alignment with your values.

Sarah Ellis: And that's really interesting because we talk a lot about values at Squiggly Career.  So, we have a free values toolkit that lots of our community use, which is about exploring your values.  We describe them in a very similar way to how you talk about them in the book.  We talk about them, they're a really useful compass; we talk about it in the context of careers, they're a good filter for your future; and we describe them in a very similar way.  We say they're pretty constant, they rarely change.  What is interesting though when it comes to defiance and your values is, and I think you've got a student who used a lovely phrase around, when it comes to our actions, values can show up more as sort of aspirations.  And even when something is counter to one of our values or something that really matters to us, we can still sometimes struggle to get to defiance, because almost maybe the power structures or that need to just say yes, because that's the default that we've got so used to, almost overrides our values which are so important to us. 

There were these three great questions which I think our listeners will really appreciate that you shared, which is a, "How do we decide how to behave?"  Maybe we're presented with something we don't agree with, but maybe the rest of our team at work do you think something's a good idea, and we're thinking, "I don't think I agree with this".  And those three questions were, who am I; what situation is this; and, what does a person like me do in this situation?  And I was thinking back to all of those moments, those real memorable moments where you felt like you've been trying to say no or defy the norm in some way, you wanted to do something different.  And actually, I think when I've asked myself those questions, it has helped me act in a way that was aligned with my values and given me the confidence to do that.  Because I'm guessing confidence is a really big part of going through those stages, because often you are doing something where maybe you're feeling like the only person saying that thing or with that point of view. 

You share lots of stories in the book, lots of different examples from loads of different contexts, and some of your own personal stories about maybe when you haven't been as defiant as you'd like to be, and then where you have been, having used some of these techniques.  And I wondered whether you'd seen confidence play a part in that, in terms of that ability to get through those stages.

Dr Sunita Sah: So, I mean the three questions that you mentioned, "Who am I; what type of situation is this; and, what does a person like me do in a situation like that?" I basically designed them around a defiance compass, because that last question of, "What does a person like me do in a situation like this?" goes back to who you are, right?  So, your actions really define who you are. 

Sarah Ellis: That cycle you said, yes.

Dr Sunita Sah: Yes, because so often we hear people saying, "This isn't me".  And what they're saying is that they don't want to be the person that's taking the action that they're taking.  But if you are continuously doing that, it does become you.  And in terms of confidence and skillset, what I've discovered about defiance that really substantially changed how I think is that we have misunderstood so much what it means to defy.  We think it's a personality trait and actually, it's just a practice, it's a skillset.  And the more that we practise it, our confidence and ability increases.  So, that last step requires two elements actually.  So, "What does a person like me do in a situation like this?" it requires both responsibility, so connecting with your values.  Are you going to take responsibility in the situation, or are you just going to put it off onto someone else?  So, "What does a person like me do in a situation like this?"  Connect with your values, take responsibility, and then to actually do something, you need the confidence and ability to defy. 

How do we get that?  We get that by practising.  And the reason that practice is so important is because if we have been wired to comply, like many of us have, we have to change those neural pathways.  And the only way to change those neural pathways is with practice.  So, if you have complied, like many of us have in the past, you can learn from that.  You can think about the situation where you complied, start visualising it, and then even role-playing or scripting what you wish you had said or what you wish you had done.  And once you start practising that, that starts changing the neural pathways.  And the next time that situation, you can use some of the scripts that I have in the book or the step-by-step process, but you could just ask simple questions, "What do you mean by that?  I'm not comfortable with this", and then that starts changing those neural pathways and making it easier for you next time you have to defy.  Because the practice is way before a moment of crisis.  You can't just wish that you had the confidence in the moment.  You've got to build it up before then.

Sarah Ellis: So brilliant and really practical.  And one of the things actually I started to do was, I think you could make a list and pre-empt the moments of saying no and defiance at work that you're likely to experience.  So, I was starting to write down, there will be moments where you need to say no to your manager or just to someone else senior, so someone in a position of power or authority.  There might be a moment where you want to defy a policy or a practice or a decision.  So, again, I think you can think these through ahead of time. 

Dr Sunita Sah: Absolutely, yeah.

Sarah Ellis: And exactly to your point, I was like, "Oh, that's where the scripts come in handy".  Also, you can use words that work for you.  We sometimes share Squiggly Scripts.  So actually, when I saw those in your book, I was like, "Oh, brilliant.  That's so helpful".  We have shared before something called a 'no-cabulary', and said, "Just here are some examples of what this could sound like, but now obviously do it in your own way and in your own words".  And I think you could also start small.  So, some of the examples I read about in your book, I was like, "Wow, those are really inspiring examples of defiance", that made me think, "Well, crikey, if that person can do that, I should be able to hold myself to account", you know, much smaller examples.  And I think you don't have to go straight into, "Well, I'm going to challenge absolutely everything all of the time", especially if this is a new behaviour for you.  I think you could start really small, like when your manager asks you to do something in a timeframe that feels unrealistic, being able to say no to that.  That's a really small act of defiance.  But if you're not saying no at all, I was like, maybe just spotting those situations that you can already see is a useful way to practice this. 

Dr Sunita Sah: Absolutely, and I think that's a great way to go about it, is to start small and start practising, because there's this wonderful quote that I keep with me that really helps me in situations where I need to defy and understand how important it is to practise, and it's often attributed to Bruce Lee, and I can see why it applies to exercise, maybe martial arts and training, but it applies to defiance as well.  And the quote is, "Under duress, we don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training".  And so, we can start training in small ways for defiance. 

So, if there is someone that is less intimidating to you, for example, but like a co-worker asking you to do something, you can start there and just ask those clarifying questions or just say, "I can do that, but I will need more time.  Oh, I can do that, but I won't be able to do this instead", and just practising those statements and scripts so really your mouth gets used to saying them and your ears get used to hearing defiant words from yourself.  Because we often think, like you mentioned some of the big examples in the book, again, another myth of defiance is that you have to be superhuman or heroic, and again you don't have to be that.  You can be defiant in your own unique way with far less angst, something that's much more natural to you. 

Sarah Ellis: And I think the idea of defiance, even in a small way, has some risk.  I was like, "Oh, some of this feels risky".  And when we're thinking about the work that we do, it's interesting, how do we apply a filter or a judgment about whether this is the right time or the right moment to defy?  Because I think what would stop a lot of people is thinking, "If I say no to my manager, does that mean that I'm going to get a bad performance rating or review at the end of a year?  If I'm seen as being difficult, is that going to be really career-limiting for my progression?"  And actually, I think there's a good intersection between your work and some of the work of Amy Edmondson around safety.  Often, the reason people don't speak up and do those things is because that interpersonal fear is just really high. 

You had this really nice phrase, and I always like things that feel pragmatic, where you talk about, it's got to feel right enough, safe enough and effective enough in that moment.  So, I wonder if we could just talk a little bit more about that, explore what would that mean and how could we learn from this idea of like, how do we judge the riskiness associated with this?

Dr Sunita Sah: This is often the thing that keeps us silent, is that we worry about the consequences.  And even though I've said that, people struggle to say no, even when there's little consequences; we need to take that into consideration.  But very often, there are consequences for being defiant, and we need to be aware of those.  So, it's often never risk-free, and so, there is some cost to defiance.  And also, there's more cost to certain people than to other people too, so we need to be aware of that as well.  And so, the two questions I ask when it comes to -- actually the second question in the defiance compass, which is, "What type of situation is this?" what you're really asking when you're looking outwards is, "Is it safe enough and is it effective enough?"  In other words, would it have positive impact?  And here, what I'm saying is that defiance is rarely risk-free. 

So, if we just ask those questions, "Is it safe enough?  Will it be effective enough?" it's very easy to come up with rationalisations that it's never going to be safe enough or it's never going to be effective enough.  And sometimes, actually all the time, we want to be aware of the fact that not speaking up, not defying, going along and simply bowing your head to other people and complying with them constantly also has a cost, and it has quite a large cost, it's not just neutral.  If you're like, "Oh, I'm worried about losing my job, but I really wanted to say something in that situation", or, "I think this is wrong", we need to ask, "Is this situation going against my values?"  And if it is a strong violation, then if you don't speak up, it really has effect on you, psychologically for sure, you're thinking about it, you're regretting it, and that can lead to other emotional problems, stress, chronic stress, inflammation.  So, it affects you physically too.  And we need to be aware of that because as I said, if you can get to the final act of defiance, a lot of that tension goes away and you actually feel more authentic, you can be more yourself and have a more joyful, honest life in a way. 

So, what we want to ask is, "Is it safe enough for me?  Will it be effective enough for me?"  And those two questions, "Is it safe enough?  Is it effective enough?" are actually deeply personal questions, because for some people it's never going to be safe, but it's safe enough for them.  So, if you think about Rosa Parks' famous 'no' on the bus, she was facing death threats and she had lived in a time of segregation, so it was never going to be safe for her to say no.  And she had also complied many times before.  She had anticipated it, it wasn't a spontaneous decision for her, she had been thinking about that decision for a long time, I would say practising for it all her life.  So, what we want to do is really think about, is it safe enough for me; and, is it effective enough?  And again, for some people, they don't consider whether it's going to have a positive impact.  Sometimes they just want to stand up, or as in Rosa Parks, sit down for what they actually believe in and take a principled stance.  So, these are deeply personal questions and nobody can tell you when it is exactly the right time to defy, but we do need to think about the defiance calculus, "How costly is this?  What are the benefits?  And is that safe enough for me?  Is it effective enough for me?" 

Sarah Ellis: I just find that really helpful as a filter.  So, when I was looking back on a couple of examples where I felt like I was defiant, but I think I definitely did it in an enough way.  So, this was where I was observing behaviours that were a contradiction to my values.  And I found that really hard, because I was also I was in a job and I needed to be in a job, and I was trying to figure out really how to call that out.  And I definitely did it in a sort of safe enough way, and it was gradual.  I think the other thing is you don't have to do -- all of your defiance doesn't happen in one moment in time.  And so, over time though, I think I became almost more defiant, and it did get to the point where I was like, the stress of not doing something was definitely higher than the stress of the status quo of continuing with where I was. 

But I couldn't have gone straight to that, because also I needed in the background, as I think I was figuring that out, I needed to figure out, well, what would the consequences, what could the cost of this be?  Can I live with that?  What could I do instead?  What might I want to do instead?  But I think it's such a good insight around the cost of not doing it, because that period of time, where I wasn't as probably defiant initially as I would have liked to have been in hindsight, where I was going along with it, I was incredibly unhappy.  So, I was really stressed, I was physically in quite a bad way in that moment.  And so, you're like, it shows up in so many ways.  And so, this is I think often when we hear from people who are in quite toxic, very low-trust work environments, that's why people get to burn out, into really difficult situations.  And you're right, you can't always fix these things really fast individually.  But I think knowing that there is options and that you can do small things is reassuring.

Dr Sunita Sah: Absolutely.  And what you described to me is your sort of small acts of practice to begin with, that build up.  But we do need to think about the cost of compliance.  And we also need to think, is it bad to be so good sometimes?  Because it harms ourselves and it harms other people too, and that's when we really do need to speak up.  But the defiance is not a knee-jerk defiance and also not knee-jerk compliance, we're talking about.  The times when we think about it and we think it's too costly, this is what I call 'conscious compliance'.  We're doing it now, we're deferring defiance to another day, that doesn't mean that we're just always going to comply.  At some point, our no is just lying in the waiting.

Sarah Ellis: I really like that, that's a really smart way to think about it.  One other area I just wanted to touch on, because I think this is a really good action for people to take, and we've mentioned it before on the podcast, I think it's good to bring some of these ideas, you know when you start to connect dots, and it's this idea of self-talk, and actually in the third person self-talk.  So, we've had Ethan Kross on the podcast, he wrote Chatter, who talks a lot about confidence and self-belief.  And we often talk about when you get distance, when you're a fly on the wall, you get a different kind of data for your development.  So, I wondered if you could talk to us a bit about in this context of saying no and defiance, why that skill can be really helpful.

Dr Sunita Sah: It's really helpful because one of the things you want to do when you get put in that situation and somebody is asking something of you or even expecting something of you, and you don't want to say yes straight away, you want to take what I call the 'power of the pause', because that really gives you some time to think through the step-by-step process that I have and other elements of, "Should I defy or not", in this situation.  And you can work through, like a flowchart I also have.  But sometimes we can't get away physically from the moment we're asked to make a decision on the spot.  And there's some scripts you can use in that situation where you can actually ask for more time and other things.  But sometimes, you might just have a few seconds where you can just close your eyes and ask yourself, is this something you really want?  What does this tension mean?  And you can talk to yourself in that third person, "Sunita, is this what I really want?"  Or, "Sarah, should I really be doing this?" and that gives some psychological distance from the actual matter at hand.  That allows us to think about, "Does this align with my values or not?  What is it that I really want?"  Rather than just completely 100% thinking about the person that's in front of us, we're also thinking about, "Does this align with my values?  What about my needs?  What is happening in this situation?"  And so, it gives us that chance to really step back and take that pause, even though we're still physically in the moment. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and that power of the pause also really stood out to me.  Like you say, whether it's five seconds, five minutes, five days, giving yourself the permission to pause and not feeling the pressure to default to, "Oh, yes, of course I'll do that, of course I agree", and knowing that's okay, I think we sometimes describe that as like slowing down to speed up.  You just need to give yourself that little bit of space. 

Dr Sunita Sah: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm interested to know from the work that you've done, because you've done lots of research, you've spoken to lots of people, and also obviously been on this journey for yourself, this is an individual thing for you, but then also you're an academic and a doctor with lots of the science too, what's the one thing that you think has helped you the most?  So, when you know about all of these, whether it's mindset or skillset, ideas and actions and what's worked, but what's one thing that's worked really well for you?

Dr Sunita Sah: Am I only allowed to say one thing or can I be five?

Sarah Ellis: Oh, you can have a few extras.  Because now you've said that, all our listeners will be like, "Oh, what else?  What else did you want to say?"

Dr Sunita Sah: So, let me say a couple of things.  One that I think everybody should really be aware is just shifting that mindset about what defiance is.  We've misunderstood what it means to defy.  It's a positive thing, not a negative thing, and you don't have to have a particular type of personality or be superhuman.  So, I think that's a really important thing to first of all acknowledge.  The second thing is to really then practice, because defiance is not a personality, it's a practice.  And once we do that, even if we've been wired to comply, even if compliance is our default, it isn't our destiny.  And I think that's something that we really should take away with us, that it's available, it's necessary for all of us.  And what I hope to do with this book is make defiance accessible to everyone.

Sarah Ellis: And I think you definitely do that, I think, as somebody where very quickly I recognised the tension bit, but then I probably got mixed experiences of whether I've made it through the five stages or not.  And I think it is a very optimistic and very positive read.  So, like you say, because you're not sure about that word, and I was like, "Oh, I don't know how I feel about that", as I was going through, I was like, "Oh, no, I'm much more on board with it now".  And I was thinking it could even be interesting, I was getting to by the end, not only how I could do this, but also how could we do this?  How could we do this as a team?  How could we do this as an organisation?  Because actually, when people defy in this useful and positive way, you'll get to better work, you'll get to better ideas, you'll get to better suggestions, people will say things that you've not thought of.  So, I was thinking, this is a really positive practice for yourself, but it's also a really positive practice in organisations generally.

Dr Sunita Sah: Yeah, absolutely.  I mean, how much creativity can you have if everybody's complying?  You need to have defiance for innovation, disruption, new ideas, and really to have people speak up about errors.  That's really important.  If people are too scared to speak up about errors because they fear the consequences if they don't feel safe enough, or even if they feel safe enough that it's not going to make any difference if they say anything, as a leader, you can manage that environment to model that type of defiance and listen to your employees, and there's going to be less burnout, less stress, more creativity.  And so, there's lots of positive benefits for the workplace.

Sarah Ellis: And we always finish our expert interviews with the same question, which is, what's the best piece of career advice that you would like to leave our listeners with today?  So, these can be some words of wisdom that someone shared with you that's helped you throughout your Squiggly Career.  And actually, if people do a bit of research on you, your career has been really squiggly, and you've transferred your talents in all sorts of different directions.  Or maybe it's just something that you live by that you found really useful. 

Dr Sunita Sah: Sometimes when we're in organisations and we think we're being the good employee by complying and things like that, but we feel disconnected, there's some kind of tension there that we're not really addressing, we do need to go back to who are we and what are our values and really thinking sometimes it's not you, right?  A lot of us, we beat ourselves up about, "Oh, I've done all these things, I've done everything that I was asked, and I'm not getting where I need to be, or this is not going the way I exactly thought".  And the best piece of advice I ever got given by someone, that's always stayed with me and actually was a big relief burden off my shoulders, was that it's not you, it's the system.  Sometimes the system is set up in such a way that it makes it very difficult for people to defy, to communicate, to do their best work and live up to their best potential.  And there are ways that you can stay in the system and change it.  And I describe some of those things and steps of defying within organisations.  There are times that you don't need to take a principled exit immediately, there are things you can do.  But we should remember, in certain situations, it's not you, it's the system.

Sarah Ellis: Dr Sunita Sar, thank you so much for joining us on Squeaky Careers podcast today.  I've really enjoyed the book, I really enjoyed the mix of the science and the stories and the practical ideas and tools, and our conversation today has been absolutely brilliant, so thank you so much. 

Dr Sunita Sah: Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure. 

Sarah Ellis: Thank you for listening to today's episode of the Squiggly Careers podcast.  I hope you found it as useful as I did.  If there are other experts that you'd love to hear from, please do email us.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  And good luck putting into practice some of those ideas and tools and hints and tips that Dr Sunita Sah shared with us today.  But that's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.