Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:03:53: Quickfire questions

00:08:50: Finish-the-sentence statements

00:18:10: Five skill areas…

00:18:34: … strengths

00:22:28: … values: pride

00:26:37: … values: tough times

00:36:30: … values: looking to 2023

00:39:42: … confidence

00:40:33: … networking

00:41:22: … possibilities

00:52:21: Looking-ahead lists

00:58:20: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And you're listening to the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly podcast where Sarah and I talk about the ups and downs and ins and outs of a Squiggly Career, and share with you some ideas for action, some practical things you can do after you listen today to support you with your career development.

Sarah Ellis: And this is our final episode of the Squiggly Careers podcast for 2022.

Helen Tupper: Not ever!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I know, that sounded dramatic, "That's it!  We're going out with a bang!"  But before we do talk about today's episode, we wanted to start by saying thank you.  We have such a brilliant group of people who listen to our podcast every week, who send us messages, telling us what's worked for them, who share it with other people, who share it in their organisations, with their friends, with their family.  I do love seeing those Spotify lists that come up with what you've been listening to; and when you see the Squiggly Careers podcast alongside, I have to say some absolutely brilliant podcasts that I also listen to, that I know have a lot more listeners than us, it does always make me feel really proud, and also just incredibly thankful, because we know that our listeners keep coming back, that you keep listening. Everybody has got choices to make about how you spend your time, and the fact that you choose to spend your listening time with us is something that we will never take for granted, and that's why we are going to keep going.  So, yeah, there is no end in sight!

Helen Tupper: Well, I also really respect it from a learning point of view, because sometimes I find it hard to prioritise listening to podcasts.  I love listening and learning from podcasts, but I don't always find a time to do it in my week.  So, when I see people who've made us their priority, I also think they've made their career development a priority too, and I just respect that because that means week after week, they've made some time to learn, and I think that's a big pat on the back for doing that as well, regardless of whether it's with us or another podcast that helps you with work; I think that's an important commitment to make to your career.

Sarah Ellis: So, this week's podcast is about reflecting on 2022 and it's how to look back to look forward, so how to reflect on your year, but also to use that to propel you to make some positive progress ready for 2023.  And one of the things to say in terms of the way we've structured today's podcast, is we really hope we have come up with some questions that you will all be able to use for yourselves.  So, you are about to hear quite a lot from us, perhaps in a way that you don't usually on the podcast, because we are going to talk about our years to bring these to life; but in the PodSheet, you'll be able to get all of these questions, you can just follow this format for yourself.  So, that's the first thing. The second thing that both Helen and I have found as we've prepared for this podcast is, watch out for recency bias. 

It is really hard when you're doing this to not just think about basically the last week or the last month.  And so I literally went back to my calendar at the start of the year and just did a quick skim through, "Okay, what was happening in January, what was happening in February?" to try and improve basically the quality of my reflections, because I could spot that that was happening. Then, Helen and I were even chatting before we got started and saying, we think this format actually is probably most useful if you use it more frequently, more quarterly.  And then if you've got quarterly reflections to come back to at this point at the end of the year, I think your self-awareness would be even better.  So, it's just two things that we found, because I wrote these questions and they are not easy! So, we've got some quickfire questions and finish-these-sentence statements to start with, which are just going to warm us up. 

Helen and I don't share beforehand what we're going to say in response to these, so it will be interesting.  And then we have got coaching questions around strengths, values, confidence, networking and possibilities, so those five skills to succeed in a Squiggly Career; we've taken each of those and we've thought, "How would you usefully look back to look forward on each of those?" So, Helen, are you read for the quick fire questions?

Helen Tupper: I am ready.  I've cut and pasted all of Sarah's questions into a separate Word document so I could fill it out and not give it away, so we'll see whether she's still talking to me after this!

Sarah Ellis: So, I'm going to ask Helen the quickfire questions, then she's going to reciprocate and ask me, and then we can't resist but talk a little bit about them in a bit more detail, I think.  And then we'll do the finish-the-statement sentences and follow that same format.  Right, are you ready?

Helen Tupper: It will all make sense, everybody!  Yeah, I'm ready to go.

Sarah Ellis: One word to describe your year?

Helen Tupper: Stretchy.

Sarah Ellis: One word to describe Amazing If's year?

Helen Tupper: Expanding.

Sarah Ellis: One word to describe, I wrote "each other", but basically me?

Helen Tupper: Do you want some love?!  Perspective.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, interesting!  Okay.

Helen Tupper: Okay, one word to describe your year?

Sarah Ellis: Rollercoaster.

Helen Tupper: One word to describe Amazing If's year?

Sarah Ellis: Growth.

Helen Tupper: One word to describe me?

Sarah Ellis: Supportive.

Helen Tupper: Oh, that was nearly my word for you and I was like, "I always say supportive.  I feel like I want a different word", but that was my first word for you; how funny!  So, your first, your rollercoaster word then, do you want to give a bit of context?

Sarah Ellis: And you were stretchy for your first word to describe your year?

Helen Tupper: I was stretchy, yeah.

Sarah Ellis: How easy or difficult did you find it to come up with your word?

Helen Tupper: I found it quite hard actually, because this year has just been really, really stretchy at times, to the point of like, "I'm feel like I'm stretched too far", either because of some challenges that we were going through, or the demands on our time, or the things that I was trying to do outside of work at the same time as inside of work.  So, I found it hard.  I didn't want to be negative about the year, but also it hasn't all been sunshine and laughter, there's been some hard -- so, stretchy was the word I felt that just got that across.  Your rollercoaster?

Sarah Ellis: At least it wasn't "snapped"!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I know!

Sarah Ellis: You're like, "Stretchy, but it didn't quite snap.  Nearly, but didn't quite!"

Helen Tupper: "Broken"; that was the word I crossed out!  So, you had rollercoaster?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I mean I don't like going on rollercoasters.

Helen Tupper: So, there you go!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, very similar sentiments to you.  And I think what it made me realise is, I am somebody who I actually enjoy change, I love newness, I like doing things differently, I definitely like to feel like I'm in control of those things; and I think this year for me has felt almost like, even the highs, it's too high and low for my liking.  I think I am pragmatic and calm, I like to be in control, and there are things, personally and at work as well, where I didn't feel like I was driving that rollercoaster. As one of our listeners pointed out to us, I think we used rollercoaster as an analogy in a previous episode and we'd said about driving, "Do you feel like you're driving it?" and he was like, "You do realise, you don't really drive a rollercoaster?" 

But when I was thinking about that rollercoaster, I definitely feel like I'm riding it, rather than at the front going, "Now I'm choosing to go in that direction, and now I'm choosing to go in this direction". There have been moments where I've edged forward, you feel like you're making some good choices and doing some things that are smart that are going to help you, with inevitable ups and downs because it's never going to be all smooth sailing, we know that.  But I think the last two or three years, which have been challenging for everybody, I wonder for some people, maybe like in 2020 when we had our first lockdowns, or then 2021 when it felt like we were a bit on repeat but even more uncertainty, then you had 2022 where there's been, as someone said to me about compound uncertainty the other day, and I was like, "Yeah, there has been a lot of that".

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: And if I think about the last three years, this has been my hardest year of the last three years.

Helen Tupper: I agree with you.  I almost think for us, it's almost like compound challenge.  At the start of the pandemic, we pivoted; and then the second year, so 2021, we were kind of experimenting with growth in a few different areas, which was interesting; and then this year, I've sort of had some growing pains, I think.  That's what it's felt like.  And I don't think it's bad and I think we probably would have always had it, but I think we've just really experienced it this year.  And then obviously we've both had some stuff personally going on that just that space you need to reset to cope with that hasn't been there.  So, it's been challenge in work, challenge outside of work.

Sarah Ellis: Someone said to me that at some point when you're running your own business, you go through your teenage years, you know like Adrian Mole's diary; it really reminded me of that!  It's a bit awkward and things are changing, you're trying to figure stuff out and you do have growing pains, don't you, and that's how I think it's felt a little bit for us at times.  And then that's why those last words are so important, because perhaps if I didn't have perspective and if you weren't supportive, perhaps at times you would have snapped.  I think we came close a couple of times, which I'm sure we'll talk about! I think there were two quite obvious moments during the year where you snapped and I snapped, at different times and places, and if anything I think it's good that you can laugh about them.  And also that whole point about, "It is okay sometimes to be like, 'Well, no, that's felt really difficult'".  But let's do the next bit, because the next questions, I think, are slightly more upbeat, because I feel like we've started on a real downer!

Helen Tupper: Okay, well, real!

Sarah Ellis: "How's your year been?"  "Erm…!"

Helen Tupper: "Quite hard!"  Okay, right, I'll ask you these first and then you can ask me.

Sarah Ellis: Okay.

Helen Tupper: Okay, you had the most fun at work when…?

Sarah Ellis: When we went away as a team.  So, as somebody actually who doesn't really like going away with other people particularly, I was quite surprised by how much fun I had.  I think it reminded me of what we were building, of why we do what we do.  I loved learning more about our team.  I do think you connect with people in a different way when you're in an immersed environment.  We went away for a night and you'd discouraged me from putting too much work on the agenda. I'm always really tempted in those moments to be like, "Right, how do we need to spend our time together?" and for it to be quite work-focused, and we had very intentionally, and you'd talked me down from having too much work, we had some learning, we did a brilliant workshop with Amy and Nicola from Good Shout and we learnt a bit about copywriting and just writing generally, and that was amazing. 

But again, that felt like a team experience, it felt like a learning experience. I think I just look back on those couple of days as a really important part of our year, and that didn't feel like growing pains, that felt like good growth.  And one of the things I've been thinking a lot about recently is, because everybody's always obsessed with growth, and I think growing is important for us, but good growth is important for us, and being really clear about what that looks like.  And that just felt like we were growing together, and for the first time it felt like we were making this transition away from it being you and I to all of us.  There was a "we-ness" here that we'd never had before. I loved the fact there was some learning, I liked the fact there was chat over food, but also there was time for people to be by themselves.  There were also some quite difficult moments in that couple of days, which we may or may not talk about, because it's more your moment to share whether you want to or not.  But I still look back on that and think I had a lot of fun.  And fun for me is probably slightly different from fun for you, but I found that fun.

Helen Tupper: I'm going to hold that moment, because I will come back to it with a different context.  It was lovely to spend time with the team.  So your second question, finish this sentence: what surprised you was…?

Sarah Ellis: How many applications we had for some of the jobs that we advertised this year; and connected to that, how small changes to a recruitment process can make a really big difference.  So, we put a lot of effort into thinking about how we were going to recruit.  We shared interview questions beforehand that had a way bigger impact than I'd imagined in terms of people feeling like they could be at their best in those interviews; we created some questions as part of the application process, asking people to share what they were proud of and some of their strengths; and we just had so much positive feedback on just the process, people enjoying applying for that role. I thought, "That's amazing, that we can make it something that people enjoy doing, whether they get an interview or whether they're successful or not".  I think people felt like it was helpful for them, so I was really proud of how we did that.  And just the number of applications that we got, where people were talking about how excited and energised they would be by the prospect of working with us.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, it was amazing, it was really nice.  Even people that didn't get the role that then got in touch about how positive the experience was, it was lovely.  Last but not least, finish the sentence: a new connection that you've been inspired by was…?

Sarah Ellis: So, I found this one really hard, which I think is a reflection potentially also how I've spent my time over the past year, and I can think of a couple of recent connections who I've been really inspired by, back to the recency bias.  I've had a couple of Ask the Expert interviews for the podcast: Sharmadean Reid and David Erixon.  David Erixon's episode is coming up in January, so people won't have heard that yet. Both of those conversations I came away from just feeling brilliant, almost like you know when your brain is on fire in a brilliant way?  Both of those people, the conversation had gone on, it had felt intense and interesting and lots of sparks going in all sorts of different directions, because they were both individually brilliant.  And it reminded me of the importance of those kinds of conversations, how much energy they give me, how much I enjoy them. But I think a lot of my new connections this year have been almost through those Ask the Expert conversations.  There have been some moments where I've done a slightly better job of some curious career conversations that I'll take about a bit later when we get to "network", but almost a new connection outside of our Ask the Expert podcasts, I actually really struggled.  And I can't work out whether it's because I can't remember, almost because of that point about going back and trying to think about all the people that you've spoken to; or just whether I haven't spent enough time doing that this year.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I agree on the Ask the Experts.  I sort of miss doing those a bit this year, and the more the year has gone on, the more I've realised what a gap that creates when you don't have them.

Sarah Ellis: Okay, should we swap; ready?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: You had the most fun when…?

Helen Tupper: We're filming together.  We've done quite a lot of filming, we have.  And do you know the one I really remember?  Sarah and I have recorded a video book for the Squiggly Career which we'll talk more about very soon.  We had to do some late night filming in a studio, and it's really weird because sometimes it's not what you want to do when you've been at work all day doing something else, it's like, "Okay, we're going to go to a studio". But Sarah and I actually don't spend lots of time together, which might sound really weird, because if you listen to the podcast, you must think we're always together, "You talk to each other every week".  But this is probably one of the few moments that we have a chat with each other quite so openly and curiously about where our heads are on topic.  In the week, we're both quite often working independently and keeping in touch via WhatsApp with what's going on.  But when we're filming, I feel like, I don't know, there are funny moments, we're quite --

Sarah Ellis: There are quite a lot of sweary moments!

Helen Tupper: Yes, quite a lot of sweary moments!  We get through it and then we give ourselves a little high five when it's done.  But I just really enjoyed, when I think about the year, they have been some of our most memorable times, us in the studio, sometimes quite cold, sometimes quite sweary.

Sarah Ellis: Always cold.

Helen Tupper: Always cold!

Sarah Ellis: Why are studios always cold?

Helen Tupper: And then normally at the end of the day, then I stick a camera in Sarah's face because I'm like, "I need some content for social".

Sarah Ellis: And at that point, I get really angry because I've reached my limit of how much I want to be in front of a camera and then you're like, "Let's say Happy Christmas and do a Christmas book competition".  At that point, I think I said something really quite aggressive to you!

Helen Tupper: You did!  You just get meaner and meaner.

Sarah Ellis: I don't want that hour of tape to get shared; I'd get cancelled, I think!  What surprised you this year?

Helen Tupper: That we published a book!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I know!  How is that this year?

Helen Tupper: So, in January, if you don't know, maybe if you're a more recent listener, we published our second book, and it went quite well.  It was a Sunday Times bestseller, called You Coach You.  But the experience of that and then just the length of this year, which I appreciate 12 months is 12 months, but it hasn't felt like 12 months; it felt like they've stretched, to the previous word of the year.  But yeah, we published a book this year; congratulations!  There you go.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, to be fair that I am very, very proud of.

Helen Tupper: Me too.

Sarah Ellis: I'm almost surprised sometimes, you know when you go back and you're like, "Yeah, that page is good; that's a good coach-yourself question!"  And I love hearing when people tell us they've read Squiggly or You Coach You and it's helped them, those moments where it has felt hard this year, just know if you have ever written a review for the podcast or got in touch with us about reading one of those books, honestly that is what keeps us going.  That's what makes us think, "Oh, it is all worth it, because we are being useful and we are making Squiggly Careers better for everyone".  So, thank you to everybody who's done that. Who's a new connection that you've been inspired by?

Helen Tupper: Well, this is a bit of recency bias definitely, because I met with him last week, but I also met with him in January, so it sort of closes the loop on the point!  So, James Routledge, who was previously the CEO of Sanctus, spoke at our book launch for You Coach You in London, along with Adrienne Herbert, and then I met with him again last week in London because we've discovered that we both have a connection from where we are from, Stoke-on-Trent, and I was just really inspired by the journey that he's gone on. He built a business, scaled it, and then he stepped away from that business as CEO, he remains on the board contributing to it; he's moved back to Staffordshire because he believes there is an opportunity to shine more of a spotlight on Stoke-on-Trent and the creative talent there.  And this person that is getting clearer and clearer about the value that they add, which is that he's great at starting things off and creating energy around something, and then constantly reinventing his career, while keeping the strength that he brings at the heart of it.  I found it really inspiring that he's not defined by one thing, he's doing a lot of what we talk about in terms of transferring the talent.  So, yeah, I'm inspired by him.

Sarah Ellis: He wrote a great book, didn't he, Mental Health at Work, I think it's called?

Helen Tupper: Yes, one of Penguin Business's shorter books.  So, yeah, good read on mental health.

Sarah Ellis: Great.  So hopefully, that helps to get you started.  I mean, I say they are quickfire, they weren't that quick, were they?!  But I do think knowing a word to describe your year generally, a word to describe your year at work, and then maybe a word to describe if you've got a close relationship with someone you work with, that can be really helpful.  Think about when have you had your most fun; I think it's a really good question.  I think fun and play at work is so important, and if you can't think of those examples, I think that also tells you something.  And if you can think of loads of examples, again that gives you probably a good lift. The surprise one is interesting, something that was just a bit leftfield, or you hadn't expected; and that new connection, I think probably like Helen and I, it's prompted us both to, you know, when those conversations are brilliant, you really remember them but if you're not having enough, you sort of feel their loss.

Helen Tupper: So, we are now going to get into our five Squiggly skill areas for you to reflect on the year, so we'll go through each one.

Sarah Ellis: For some of these, we're both going to talk about them but for some, we're going to alternate, just because this feels very much about us but it is really more about you; we want you to all be thinking about your years.  So as always with these podcasts, it definitely helps us a lot as well.  So, we're going to start with strengths.  I'm just going to talk to Helen about strengths and then we're both going to do values. So for strengths, three questions for you all to have a think about: when have you been at your best; who are you sharing your strengths with; and, how could you use your strengths more in 2023?  And then using your reflections on those three coaching questions to just summarise by thinking, "My strengths action is…".  So, Helen, where did you get to on strengths?

Helen Tupper: So I said, "When have I been at my best?" I think in the programmes that we deliver for clients.  So in that moment, no matter what's been going on in work or outside of it, in that moment I've been present and I believe that I've delivered high energy, high effectiveness career development sessions, I've been really proud of those moments and there's been a lot of them this year; so, felt good about that. "Who am I sharing my strengths with?"  So, at the moment, brilliant person that I'm sort of mentoring, called Marie, who is looking to develop and grow her business in lots of different ways, and I feel like I've got lots of ideas and suggestions and ways of making her ideas happen that I'm quite excited to do to support her with, it's given me lots of energy to do that.  And, "How can I use my strengths more in 2023?"  I had an idea that I've not talked to you about, which is about helping one person a month. 

It sounds a bit weird, because we have sessions and we'll have sometimes 1,000 people in a session, and you're like, "Well, you're helping quite a lot of people at once then". But for me, there's something in the one-to-one, the small bits of help that you give one person, that have a big difference to how you feel.  So, I've decided that for next year, I'm going to focus on one person, or a pair, a month to really help them with something specific they're working on.  So, maybe someone's trying to write a book proposal, or maybe someone is trying to create a commercial proposition, and I've already got the first three people in mind.  They're not necessarily going to know that they're on my list!

Sarah Ellis: Do they even actually need any help, or are you just going to be like, "You're getting helped, whether you want it or not!"

Helen Tupper: "I think you need some help though!"  No, I think they will have probably asked in some way, and I probably haven't made that specific commitment.  But in my mind, I'm going to put the date in the diary, like I already know one person I'm dealing with in January, and I will sit down with somebody else in February who I talked to towards the end of last year, but I just want to be a little bit more intentional about the small-scale help that can make quite a big difference to that one person, but also makes quite a big difference to how I feel about my impact. It's not always the massive stuff, you know?  I want to keep the small stuff in.  So, my action for 2023 is to create what I'm calling a "care-and-share list"; who's working on something that I care about, and how can I share my strengths to support them?  So, I want to get that list and just be very intentional about it for the year.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's really interesting, and I think like you said, sometimes if you're not intentional, you're either doing it but you don't give yourself credit for it, or you're just not getting those small wins along the way that are always so important.  I've realised this year, and I don't know whether it's just by accident, or whether it's just something that I end almost offering without realising, I'm really good at helping people to leave well. So, if they're trying to leave a team or an organisation or career change, and sometimes those can be quite knotty moments in your Squiggly Career, they can feel hard for lots of reasons, there are two or three people, it's not like there are multitudes of people, but there are two or three people who I can see that they've done what I would always describe as an elegant exit; so they feel really good about themselves, they've kept really good relationships, and they've done that in a way that's worked for them. 

I feel like I have played a really important part in helping someone to do that in a time that is often quite overwhelming and nerve-racking. So, yeah, it's a very specific thing, but you know when you start to spot, "I'm obviously quite useful in those moments".  So again, that's often quite helpful to then think, "That's obviously using my strengths, maybe about being supportive, maybe giving people perspective", so perhaps I could do that for more people next year who are in that knotty moment, and then you could think, "Well, what does that look like?"

Helen Tupper: Okay, so the second area we want to talk about is values, so Squiggly skill number two, and this is one we're both going to talk about, just because we think it's so fundamental, and also we think that this year has played a role in terms of our values quite a lot, in terms of our happiness and sometimes challenges at work.  So, Sarah, one moment you felt proud of?

Sarah Ellis: I felt really proud this year when we did an event for our Lead, Learn, Connect community.  So, this is a community of people who work in learning and development.  We get together every six to eight weeks, pretty much always virtually, and for the first time in three years, we got over 100 people in a room together.  And I think the reason I felt really proud of that day was the agenda, was the people that we brought together.  So, it wasn't really about us, it was what we could bring to that community.  And I think what we can bring to that community is curiosity, thinking differently, challenge and build, and I think we got brilliant people in the room to inspire and to share those ideas, and to teach people to draw and to do all sorts of interesting things. I think that is one of the unique things that we offer to the people that we work with and we put a lot of effort into designing that day and thinking about how to make it a brilliant learning experience, because you do get that classic cliché, don't you, of you know the area that you work in is often something you neglect for yourself. 

So, I felt like we gave a day of career and learning development to people who work in that area and spend most of their time supporting other people with their careers.  And it's loads of work, everyone knows events are always loads of work and there's lots to sort out and to organise; and obviously we didn't have it in our plans at the start of the year, so we'd not created all this spare space to make that happen. But I do remember afterwards just feeling incredibly good about what we'd achieved and the impact that we'd had, and that we'd been useful; that benchmark that we always have week in, week out, "How are we being useful; how could we be more useful?"  I felt like we created an incredibly useful day of learning and development for people, so I felt really proud of that.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and it wasn't the moment that I'd written down actually, we'll talk about those in a minute.  But when I reflect on that, I feel like there's something, and it's not one of our values actually, but there is something for me that we do PodPlus every week, which is something that we do for free to help people who want to dive a bit deeper into their development.  That event as well, those people that are part of that community, we put that on, we funded the whole thing, and for me there is something really important in that sort of generosity of learning that we enable; I feel like that's something that's important to both of us, that we create those moments for people to come to and be part of.  It feels like a big part of our brand and how we do what we do.

Sarah Ellis: So, what did you have?  Let's stay with pride before we move onto the next one.

Helen Tupper: So, my moment I felt proud of?  Book launch resilience; I wrote, "Book launch resilience"; that's exactly what I've written, everybody, because I'm not sure of my emotions of that time!  So, the context was, when You Coach You came out in January, we had a few tough times with the publishing process, the ups and downs with numbers that were being reported and all kinds of things; it was really hard.  That felt like a very rollercoaster month for me of, "Oh, it's going well.  Oh no, it's a disaster!"  Then we had a great idea of putting personalised covers together, so you got, "Sarah Coach Sarah", which basically meant me, for two months with some other people in our team, printing and packing up and posting books and setting up a mini operations process that was just exhausting and difficult. Then the team got COVID during that time, you got COVID; I just felt like that was hard.  But I'm really proud of the resilience of us all getting through that, and that we delivered on all of our commitments at that time.

Sarah Ellis: And we sold a lot of books.

Helen Tupper: We sold a lot of books and we did live events with Penguin, and we showed up for all of those moments and we covered each other when it felt tough.  And I'm just really, you know like you can do hard things?  I look at those couple of months and I go, "Do you know, we can do hard things".

Sarah Ellis: We can do hard things!

Helen Tupper: We've done hard things, and we can do hard things!

Sarah Ellis: If nothing else, this year, we can do hard things!

Helen Tupper: We can do hard things!  That was a bit of a prove point; a prove point and a proud point for me, that we could do that.  All right, so the next one: one time, Sarah, where life felt tough this year and what you learnt from it?

Sarah Ellis: Well, for people who listen to the podcast who really do listen, when we did our review this time last year, I talked about having a bit of a meltdown on Clapham Junction Station.  So this year, apparently, that's where I have all my meltdowns; train stations!  I was like, "Is there some sort of metaphor in this; or, is it to do with transitionary moments?  I don't know, maybe it's just pure coincidence. This time it was Paddington, Platform 1, very specifically, and again it was just one of those moments where everything -- you know when you can cope with a lot, people talk about that stress bucket.  When you do your mental health first-aid training, I always find it helpful, that idea of your stress bucket gets filled and filled and if there's no one turning on the taps to relieve some of that stress, at some point it will overflow, and then that's it, that's all you can cope with.  And that's very hard to anticipate for me when those moments are going to happen, but they do.  And when they do, they feel so different to hard things. So you know we've described, "There's been hard things and we've found our way through, and some of those things have been stressful"?  There is something very different for me about when I have these platform-related mini meltdowns, where I feel completely numb.  For somebody who is quite feeling-related most of the time, I go completely numb, very blank and lose a real sense of connection to work, to people --

Helen Tupper: It's coping, right; it must just be a coping mechanism?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it must be.  What was different this year was because I've had it before, I was like, "Oh, it's that again".  I mean, I will say I suspect he doesn't listen, but there was a guy on Platform 1 who saw me walking up and down this platform; I couldn't find a building I was trying to get into, and that turned out to be the final straw.  And this guy saw me, he worked for Great Western Rail, and I think he saw me on the edge of tears I think looking incredibly distressed.  I must have looked really on the edge.  And he came over to me and was like, "Hello, I was just wondering if you were okay and if I could help you?" and I was just like, "No, I'm not okay!"  But you know when you're also like, "And I cannot tell you how to help me, other than practically I do need to find this building"? It was incredibly kind, because actually all I really needed in that moment was him -- I did need somebody to come and talk to me, or I think I might have just capitulated and sat down on that platform in November, or whenever it was.  And what's interesting I think when you do feel that way, is letting go of trying to fix it.  So I think when it has happened to me before, I've been like, "Well, how do I fix this?" whereas actually this time, I was like, "Okay, I've got that weird blank feeling again", and you just go, "It feels weird, but I do know it will go away", and trusting in that and not worrying about it too much, and just letting yourself be for two or three days.  Then, you do find your way through those moments.  I mean, it's not something I'd look to repeat.

Helen Tupper: You're not looking forward to train station 2023 meltdown?!

Sarah Ellis: No!  I was reading an article about -- this is so boring; but I should pick the nice train stations in London and be like, "That one's got a nice coffee shop where I could have the next mini meltdown"!  But I saw my friends actually, I think it was literally the next day, some very, very good friends, and it was funny that I just couldn't quite connect with them in the same way, it didn't feel like it would normally feel seeing them, and it just took me two or three days. I think I'm always trying to reflect on, "Could I have prevented it?" and actually I think the answer to that is yes.  It was an unfortunate time and mix of circumstances and mix of actions, but it was definitely at least partly due to overload; not all, but partly due to overload.  And I was being really, you know, if you're trying to do that control versus out of control in a very table-like way, what in that moment was in my control, what was out of my control, I still believe there was enough in my control that I could have avoided the overload. There were some other things happening in my life where nothing I could have done about it and they were always going to be hard, and some of those things were more personal; but there were some things where if I'd have just probably looked ahead a little bit more, been a bit more ruthless about prioritising, said no a little bit more, asked for help a bit more, I probably could have just turned on the tap a little bit with that stress bucket. But in some ways, I'm sort of used to it now.  We'll all be excited to see which platform it is and which station it is next year!

Helen Tupper: None of us will be excited about that.

Sarah Ellis: Place your bets now!

Helen Tupper: I hope that's not a reality of next year.

Sarah Ellis: I did tell a couple of my friends who had listened to the podcast and they were like, "Why is it always at a train station?" and I was like, "I don't know", but apparently it is.  They are not fun.  I mean, I can laugh about them now, but I really, really don't enjoy it, because I think I find it so alien to feel that disconnected. I think if it had been any more than a couple of days before you start to reconnect, it's a problem, you've got to go and talk to the doctor.  I honestly don't think I could feel that way for very long, it would be a real red flag.  I don't want to make too light of it, because I think feeling like that for any longer is actually really serious.  For a few days, it was kind of copable with, and it wasn't the first time that I'd felt it.  So, there you go, you go now!

Helen Tupper: Oh my gosh!  So, I don't know what I learnt from my time; so the question, everyone, just in case you forgot the question, "A time when it felt tough and what did you learn?"  Sarah talked about one of her favourite moments of the year was when the team got together, and not because of the team, that was one of my least favourite moments of the year, because Sarah and I just had a very tricky conversation about all kinds of stuff in terms of the business, a growing pain thing with the business, and that was probably my breakdown moment.  I mean, how many times have you seen me cry in the time that we've been friends?

Sarah Ellis: That time?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, so it's not that I'm unemotional, but I think that I'm quite managed in terms of my emotions.  And there was something about that situation where I didn't feel -- and I still get upset thinking about it now, and I don't really know what I learnt from it.  I think what I learnt is that when there's a problem, I like to have it out; not like an argument, it's not that, I like to discuss it, I like to just get it out in the open and then feel like there's an ongoing discussion about what's going on, how are we doing; even formalising it in some way probably helps me with the feelings and being like, "Okay, we've got a red-flag situation around this thing". Because I'm a fixer, I don't mind issues; issues are unavoidable.  But what I do like to do is fix it, and I also like to fix it fast.  And that situation was probably -- and it's also not fully been resolved now, because it's not the most fixable fast thing.  For context everyone, it's about some financial stuff and legal stuff that you have to get other people involved in that Sarah and I had sought.

Sarah Ellis: It sounds like we're divorcing!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, we're divorcing!  We're not divorcing, it's just some structural stuff and it's really important.  And I can't fix it fast and I also can't do it myself, which then introduces other dependencies.  And I think the year plus that was possibly contributing to the emotions, and it just felt really, really hard.  And so, I don't know what I learnt from it, other than that there are some things that I can't fix fast and I'm going to have to accept that that's going to feel hard to do.  So maybe even calling out like, "This isn't one you can fix fast and that's okay for now", maybe it's that that helps.  But I found it very uncomfortable. I've still found it uncomfortable since, because I'd like to forget about it but I feel like until it's resolved, it's not a thing you can move on from, because the issue that created it is still there.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it is interesting.  It caught me off-guard because it is so --

Helen Tupper: Un-me.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, atypical in terms of your behaviour.  But then I think in some ways, I feel proud of that moment, because money is always hard to talk about, finance is always hard to talk about, isn't it?  But we had a very grown-up conversation and we talked about it very quickly.  I think we spotted very quickly that also we were feeling very differently probably, because actually we were; it wasn't like we were both feeling the same way.  I think we both knew we'd got some stuff to fix, but I think we were feeling like we had different emotions about that. So, I think you should feel really good.  We sat down and we talked about it very quickly and we've kept coming back to it and we've tried to be really transparent, haven't we, with where we are and what we need to do.  I would observe the thing that you found hard is partly because you go, "I just want to move on from it", and you can't, and it's the not being able to fix it fast.

Helen Tupper: I hate it.

Sarah Ellis: I can almost see the pain, the physical pain that it causes you to be like, "I can't just sort this".  I think probably I'm way more okay with that and just going, "It's okay, we're talking to the right people and we're getting some of this stuff sorted".

Helen Tupper: Do you know what's interesting just on these moments, it's really interesting; it's very opposite to us.  Yours was really hard because you stopped caring, not for long, but for a moment your feelings disappeared because you'd disconnected and disassociated so much from a situation that you had no feelings left; and mine was so hard that all of my feelings physically came out!  Some kind of metamorphosis went on where I became you and you became me and we're like, "Take us back to normal; this is horrible!"

Sarah Ellis: Neither of us enjoyed it, let's be honest!  But it goes back to the thing as well, doesn't it, you can do hard things and sometimes feeling like things are not always going to be easy, you can't always fix things fast; sometimes I think if you just learn that, it doesn't mean that you're going to enjoy it the next time, but you're probably a bit more prepared.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  And I mean there's good things in it, but I think it takes you a while to get to the good things.  They're bruising, those moments are bruising, and you just grow through what you go through and you can be more lobster, and all those other brilliant things that we've said in previous times!  But they're not easy, they're not easy in the moment, and you can't get away from that.

Sarah Ellis: So, what does living one of your values more next year look like?

Helen Tupper: This one, I found much easier.  I have four values; freedom, growth, energy and achievement, and it's the growth one that I really want to focus on actually.  So, growth to me means making things bigger and better.  There's lots of things that I want to do in terms of how we scale Amazing If in different places and different ways; but I'd also really like that "even better if" focus to be something that I have the mental space to do.  Because, I'm very often delivering as part of the growing, but what I'd like to do is more of the developing, "How could this be better; and what could we learn from other people; and how could we innovate more in this area?"  I get really excited about that part of my growth value next year.  What about you?

Sarah Ellis: So, my values are: achievement, ideas, learning and variety.  The first thing I wrote down actually was, "When we are making choices and decisions, to keep connecting them back to our values, our values as a company and our values as individuals", because you know that's the why behind the work.  And sometimes I think some of the time trade-offs that we have to make and some of the decisions we're making about what we do in what order, I think if we more regularly use those values as a filter, it would give us more confidence around those decisions.  I think generally we make pretty good decisions, but it might give you an extra boost of confidence. I think it would also just challenge you, and us together from time to time, to be really brave about things.  We did have a moment this year where for two or three weeks, we worked very differently, and that was quite a brave call for us to do, because we were going to make less money during that time and we were spending our time in a different way.  And I think we both did that because we recognised that we need a bit of space for ideas and learning and freedom and growth. 

We were both living our values very much in that time. So for me, it was less about one of my values more and it was more about continuing to keep your values really visible, our collective values and our individual ones.  And I was also thinking about that for our team now as well.  And then just keep coming back to, "Are we growing aligned with our values; are we living aligned with our values?" because all of those, if anyone's ever done that career graph exercise that we talk about in Squiggly Careers on values, where you plot what your highs have in common, what can you learn from your lows; all of those highs are always when those values are really present.  So, just continuing to remind yourself of that and remember that can be incredibly useful. Almost as we're looking into 2023 and thinking the classic, "What are you going to do more of; what are you going to keep the same; what are you going to less of?" keeping those values really front of mind throughout, I think, to help us make some trade-offs, because you're always making tough decisions; that was front of mind for me.

Helen Tupper: So, just a recap them on those questions on values, it's one moment you felt proud of; one time when it felt tough and what you learnt; and what does living one of your values more in 2023 look like? So, for the next two, we're just going to read you the questions, because we're conscious that there's quite a lot to listen to and don't forget, as Sarah said, this will all be summarised in the PodSheet for you, so just the things for you to reflect on.  I might see if we can create a little asset, Sarah, as well, like a "2022 in Review" thing that people can fill in for themselves as well.

Sarah Ellis: That would be really useful.

Helen Tupper: Something to take away from today.  So, the confidence questions are: number one, "When have your confidence gremlins come out to play?"  Number two, "What's one example of when you've caged a confidence gremlin?"  And number three, "What's one way you'll continue to build your self-belief in 2023?"  And if you want any support identifying your confidence gremlins, if you go onto amazingif.com, onto our free toolkit, which you can get from if you click on Learn With Us in the toolbar on our website, you'll see loads of resources.  But there is a free e-book there on How to Cage Your Confidence Gremlins, and we've listed out the top ten confidence gremlins that we see most frequently. So, if you need a little bit of a nudge to get to the answers on that one, that could be a good book for you to read.  And then, when you've reflected on all of that, you want to get to your 2023 action in terms of your confidence, what would that be?

Sarah Ellis: So, for network, which as a reminder we describe as "people helping people", question one, "Who have you been learning from over the last 12 months?"  Question two, "What networks have you neglected in 2022 you might want to look after a bit more in 2023?"  Question three, "What do you want to learn from your network next year?" I do really like that last question, I think it gives you a real focus for creating connection.  And that might just be for me, as an introvert who, I have to find focus here to make this happen.  We have answered these questions as well, but when I wrote that down, that gave me a real sense of purpose in terms of, "How do I be purposeful about who I'm connecting with and why I'm connecting?" because I think that last one is a really critical question, "What do you want to learn from your network next year?" Helen Tupper: And the fifth and final area, and this one we will both answer, is around possibilities.  So, three questions here for you to reflect on, so I will ask Sarah them.  So, Sarah, how do you feel about your career opportunities and options after this year?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's interesting!  I found this quite a hard question, that I wrote, and I was like, "Why am I writing really hard questions?"  What went through my head was, "Am I more or less employable than I was at the start of the year?" and, "Do I feel like I've got more or less options?" because I always feel like you want to be opening up options.  I think that just appeals to me in terms of my own values, but also I think that's a smart thing to do. So, despite what we've talked about today, which at times people might just be like,

"Wow, they sound like they've had a really difficult year", I've come to the end of this year and I have never felt more convinced that I'm doing the thing where I can make the most difference, in terms of I have found and discovered the work where I can be at my best, where I can be useful, and things that I'm good at, that benefit from my strengths.  And I can imagine using those strengths in other ways.  So, can I imagine transferring my talents?  I don't actually find it that difficult to imagine that, because both you and I have both done lots of other things before. But what I'm more interested in is, how can I use my talents in a way to support us in terms of that good growth that we want to achieve for Amazing If?  If we're here to make Squiggly Careers better for everyone, how do I connect what I do really well and where I'm brilliant and at my best, to help us to do that?  That's what I want to do, that's what I get really excited about.  Whenever I talk to people, from the outside in it's always interesting, isn't it, to see what people's perception is of what we do and how we spend our time; people always say, "You can just see and hear from you both", when they've seen you as well, "that sense of care and commitment that you have to people's careers". 

That is because it's so genuine.  We're not making it up or pretending or trying to do that.  So, even when it's been really hard this year, I don't want to do anything different. A friend, one of my best friends, actually asked me this year, I went to visit her and she was like, "What can you imagine yourself doing now in five or ten years' time?" and I was like, "I want to do this!" and I have never answered that question in that way before.  And I don't want to be living the same year twice, because that's my favourite bit of career advice, is never live the same year twice, but I just want to keep expanding and growing from where I am, and I can see loads of ways to do that that I get really excited about. I do also think asking this question did make me reflect on, variety is one of my values and I am always better in whatever I'm spending the majority of my time on, I am always better if I have something else alongside that, I always have been.  So, when I worked at Sainsbury's, I did a four-day week, I spent one day on volunteering in Amazing If, and I've just always had this slight mismatch within my working week and I enjoy that.  I think I've had less of that this year than I've ever had before because we have been so in Amazing If and so in our world, and it's needed that for loads of reasons; all of those growing pains and all of the good growth and all of the things that we do, it must be 97%, 98% of my time, with the odd exception along the way, has been fully in Amazing If. It's made me think, "That's not what I want", as I say to Helen!  She's like, "When you say, not what you want…?"  I don't quite know what that looks like yet.  I've got some ideas and I know that will feel hard, back to those trade-offs and back to where we are.  And in some ways you might listen and be like, "It sounds really counterintuitive".  But I know that will be good for me and I think that's what I've missed a bit.  I think also doing that for me opens up options and opportunities and it creates connections. I feel like I am doing what I'm meant to be doing and I'm really excited about how else we could do that and where else and be even more ambitious for where our careers could take us, individually and together, and I think I want something slightly different within my working week, and I think I've missed that.

Helen Tupper: I only ever get excited about enabling you.  I just go, "Well, I know we have a team now, I know we have a business, and lots of people who look to us for support with Squiggly Careers, but ultimately this business started with you and me, and if I can enable you and enable the business…"  So, if you were like -- I'll make it happen, because that's what I do, that's my strength, whatever works for you!

Sarah Ellis: What I really like is your initial reaction to that is just to go, "Okay, so what do you need?"

Helen Tupper: Decide now; don't make me sit with the uncertainty!

Sarah Ellis: I'm like, "Let me explore, for God's sake!"  I'm joking.  How do you feel about your career opportunities; are you about to apply for another job?!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, so, newsflash…!  No, I actually feel quite, excited is the wrong word, to take this year on, because I haven't got the energy to be excited, I think I need a break.  But I feel that this year has been the year that the business has most felt like a business, an actual business.

Sarah Ellis: A real-life business.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, an actual real-life proper business, with real-life proper business things and challenges and all that kind of stuff.  And we've also made some real-life business decisions about people that we're bringing into the team.  So, when I look ahead to next year, I can look at some of the people that we're bringing in, and I can see how that might reshape my role a little bit. What I'm quite looking forward to, in terms of this question being about my career opportunities and options, I think my role could look a little bit different next year, in terms of how I spend my time in the business.  I think I don't need perhaps the same variety you do because it's not my value in that way.  What I do want to make sure is that my time is high achieving for the business.  And what I'm quite looking forward to is sitting down with you and almost redefining my role a little bit, in terms of the strengths that I bring and what the business needs; if we were to allocate my time in a way that worked best for me and the business, what would that look like, and I feel like I've maybe not had that flexibility for a while, because there's been quite a lot of demands --

Sarah Ellis: On your day.

Helen Tupper: -- on my day, in terms of what the business needs.  But because we're now bringing in people that will be far better at that stuff than me, I think it will create some space for me to use that time for us in other ways.  I can see us, maybe March, because there's a little bit of onboarding and all that; but I can imagine you and me in March sitting down and going, "Let's redo your week.  What do we need it to be; what do you want it to be?" and I find that quite exciting in terms of the impact that I can have. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, so it's a hard question, but it's a good one, is the conclusion I've come to.

Helen Tupper: It is a good one.

Sarah Ellis: We've talked about this a little bit, so perhaps we'll do this one quite briefly, but when we're thinking about possibilities, we know that people are really pivotal to supporting our progression.  And in Squiggly Careers, no one succeeds by themselves.  So, it's worth just asking yourself, "What curious career conversations have you had this year; and, would you like to have next year, particularly with that framing of exploring career possibilities?"  So, these are not "applying for job" conversations; these are "windows into other people's worlds" conversations.  So, any that particularly stand out for you, Helen?

Helen Tupper: Rob Pierre at Jellyfish.

Sarah Ellis: I think he'd be brilliant on the podcast.  I'm sure we'll get him on the podcast at some point.

Helen Tupper: Okay, I'll speak to him!  So, Rob was a recommendation from one of our Squiggly Career advocates.  He was like, "I really think you should talk to him, he's got a managers' organisation.  And I had a couple of brilliant chats with him.  Then I was like, "We need Rob at Lead, Learn and Connect", which is the event that Sarah mentioned.  He inspired everybody because he is just counter to a lot of modern structures of organisations in terms of what he's building at Jellyfish and his approach, and I think it's really refreshing to hear.  Refreshing Rob, I think, would be my career conversation of the year!

Sarah Ellis: Or, Relentless Rob, as I think I actually called him on the day!

Helen Tupper: Yes, that too!  Refreshingly Relentless Rob at Jellyfish, but I think what he's doing there is really interesting.  What about you; what sticks out?

Sarah Ellis: I've actually had a few conversations through a coffee roulette that's set up through a community that I'm part of for people that run their own companies, probably people who are more experienced at running their own companies than we are, companies that are slightly bigger than ours, but not completely different.  And in the past three or four months, I think because I'd recognised that maybe I'd not had that many curious career conversations, I signed up to this coffee roulette, and then literally you just get an email and they're like, "This is the person you've been connected with". Those people have been really good every time at getting in touch with me and saying, "Sarah, we've been matched, shall we have a chat?" and you think, "I don't know, when is that going to happen?"  It's the prioritising of that chat that I think has been difficult.  But I have prioritised them and I'm so glad that I have because I've spoken to two or three people now, from very different sorts of businesses, and every single one of them has been really useful. It's really interesting to see what questions they ask about our company, so that gives you just some insights; really interesting to hear their reflections.  One of the ladies that actually I'm talking to soon runs a quite posh, I think, hairdresser.  I'd heard of the brand and then I was like, "Do I have to sort my hair out before I can talk to her?" because I'd be really self-conscious!  But those curious career conversations have really stood out for me, where the thing you've got in common is that you run a company.  So, it takes you out of your world, so you're less in career development and learning world; you're just more in the, what are the challenges of running your own company, being a founder, being a co-founder. So, I would say one of the really common themes I hear is people are just so jealous of our relationship, and I never really know what to say, because people go, "I'd really love to have a co-founder", and I'm like, "Okay, yeah, I mean it is really great".

Helen Tupper: Co-founder!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, but it does make you realise there are some things about structurally how we are set up which I think have been very organic for us, it's just we've made those decisions because they felt right for us along the way, that it makes you very grateful for, things like we don't have external investment to worry about, we don't have some private equity company saying, "You must tick this level of growth", because I don't think I would enjoy that very much; and you're not doing it by yourself.  Even if I think about, "Could I have done the last year by myself?"  No, I don't think so. So, some of it is a bit about, it helps you to spot the good and the grateful; you're like, "Okay, these things are good and we should protect those things", and just how important those things are, and also people asking some really good questions that just unlock your thinking.  So, I'm going to keep making time for those, because I didn't in the first half of this year, and then I have since October time; and every single one, without fail, has been useful.

Helen Tupper: And the last question in possibilities, which we'll just say this one so you can reflect on it yourself is, "Which of your transferable talents do you want to make stronger in 2023?  So, just to recap on those questions, the first one was, "How do you feel about your career opportunities and options after the year?"  "What curious conversations have you had about your career?" and, "Which of your transferable talents do you want to make stronger in 2023?"

Sarah Ellis: So, just to finish, we thought it's always helpful just to do a bit of a, we call them looking-ahead lists now in Amazing If, which we always find quite useful.  So, one work thing that you're looking forward to, that's on your looking-forward-to list for 2023; and one home thing that's on your looking-forward-to list for 2023.  Helen, do you want to go first?

Helen Tupper: I've got two, because one of them I was thinking you might be like, "I don't know about that one", so I was like, "I'll do another one in case she dismisses it!"  So, I'm looking forward to next year, this is the one I think you might dismiss, scoping book three, because I think Sarah's like, "We haven't decided we're doing book three yet", and I know we haven't, but I'm looking forward to the discussion about potentially doing book three, so that's going up there. Then the second one, which you're not allowed to debate with me, is about learning innovation.  I really would love to spend a little bit of time, and I used to do this in other industries that I worked in and I really enjoyed it, just looking at innovation that's happening in different areas, and just thinking about, if we were going to do something really different with how we taught people Squiggly skills, what would different look like, in terms of the tech that we use and how we do it.  I think Sarah is so good at learning design, in terms of the questions and how we use visuals, and I think sometimes how I can think about how we can use tech is the bit of value that I add as well, and just looking at different industries and what do they do.  So, I'm looking forward to spending a bit of time doing that, I think that could be interesting. Then the one home thing on my looking-forward-to list is working in the Squiggly studio!

Sarah Ellis: She's got a Squiggly studio, people!

Helen Tupper: I'm very excited!

Sarah Ellis: It looks really cold and bleak at the moment, I can see her on screen; it doesn't look that nice!

Helen Tupper: It's quite warm, but it's very white, it's not very Squiggly.  But I've got a new building.  So, we've had various different offices over the last 12 months that we've been doing our Squiggly sessions from and for me this year, as in 2023, I have a new studio space which is in my home, which is really exciting, and I'm just looking forward to doing it up so that I can feel I can come in here and I can be work me, but I literally have to go across the grass and I can be home me, and that just feels like the two things are very connected, but also quite nice to have a little bit of Squiggly separation as well.  So, yes, that's mine.  So, your looking-forward-to work list for next year, Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: The work one is hopefully realising and seeing the potential, as we've described, now having Team Amazing If, rather than Sarah and Helen Amazing If, because I think it's going to make a really big difference.  I'm really interested in how you create high-performing teams, high-trust teams, to deliver those high-performing teams; and also how we can share what we're learning almost about creating a high-performing team, in a really open way. Until now, and we've actually found this year, to our detriment, we don't write that much stuff down because we don't need to, because essentially as long as Helen and I know, it's all sort of fine.  But once you start to have other people, it's not fine because how does somebody understand what a working week looks like, what you do, what's your culture, what defines your ways of working?  So, I was just almost looking forward to understanding a team, spending time with a team, almost creating a culture that is Amazing If, rather than just feeling like we are just Helen and Sarah. Then, what we've probably done over the last year or so is, we're sort of a bit more of a collection of Amazing If people who are all very good at what they do, and we've started to come together more and more as a team.  I can see and I can feel so much potential in people, and I'm just really excited about that and what that could bring and what that could become.  So, that's the work one.

Helen Tupper: That's lovely.

Sarah Ellis: And the home one for me is --

Helen Tupper: Is it a holiday?!

Sarah Ellis: No, it's not!  Well, actually, it sort of is connected to that.  So this year, I've got quite into, my five-year-old really likes looking for crabs and fish and stuff at the seaside in the UK, and we go to the seaside quite a lot.  Him and I have also discovered a shared passion for finding sea glass.  If anyone's never found sea glass before, you kind of comb the beaches for these small bits of sea glass that look beautiful.  So, I absolutely love discovering all of this wildlife and the sea glass and have got very into it.  Me and my son have this little rock pool book and we like ticking off that we found a rock goby, or a certain kind of crab. This year for the first time, I got in cold water in a wetsuit, which I think I did talk about on the podcast, so I'm getting more adventurous by the day. 

And we now have this cool snorkelling stuff for the UK, and we've got this cool camera thing where you put your iPhone into your camera, so you can do underwater pictures of, I don't know, a crab or whatever.  It is actually a bit more of the same thing.  When I was thinking about my day-to-day, I'm very lucky that I do lots of things that I really enjoy with my friends and my family, and that's really important to me.  I don't want to lose that, I think I've discovered that really in the last couple of years. I've also rediscovered a few things this year, like playing netball, which hasn't happened all the time, but it's happened some of the time.  And every time it has happened, I've felt much better about myself and much better about my life and my work and everything.  So, knowing to protect those things that are already important to you, I think that's what it reminded me of, rather than thinking about newness.  I'm always quite attracted to newness.  There's lots of new stuff workwise in my head, but actually home-wise, there's not newness.  I want my family to be happy and okay and feel like I'm there to support them for everything that they need and that's going to be important next year, because lots of things are happening in my family next year, and I want to keep going with some things that already make me very happy.

Helen Tupper: I like that.  Also, it could be good social content, Sarah, pictures of you discovering -- no, she's not happy!

Sarah Ellis: I've already made you take one down this year!  A picture of me suddenly appeared somewhere and I was like, "Take it down.  I'm not having that!"  My question as always is, "How is that useful to anyone?"  No one needs to see a picture of me in my wetsuit.

Helen Tupper: People might like your journey with sea glass.  So, let us know, everyone, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com --

Sarah Ellis: Really, don't.

Helen Tupper: -- if you would like some pictures of Sarah!

Sarah Ellis: If that's what people are spending their time on in terms of their content, I can give them ten better things that they could be doing.

Helen Tupper: Okay, don't email, she's going to give you a to-do list.  You don't need this, everyone!  But thank you, everybody, for listening to our reflections.  We've done these sort of end-of-year review podcasts in a few different guises now, but I always look forward to them because it's a real press-pause moment to look back on the year.  And in us pressing pause and learning, I hope we share some really useful questions with you.  But also, it's a nice thing for us to do, and I know that at some point in the future when Sarah and I are older and greyer than we are now, we will probably listen back to these and be like, "Oh, gosh, do you remember that Clapham Junction moment?  That hasn't happened for 20 years", I hope! But there's a lot of memories for us that are captured in these episodes, so thank you for giving us the space to share them with you too.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you everybody.  We hope you all have a brilliantly Squiggly and very happy 2023.  Please keep coming back, please keep recommending and supporting everything we do with the Squiggly Careers podcast; we really appreciate it and we love having you along with all of us on all of our Squiggly Career journeys.  Thank you so much and bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everybody.