Timestamps

00:01:20: Stats on career breaks
00:06:03: Different career break scenarios
00:07:35: Interview 1: Julianne Miles...
00:09:03: ... biggest challenge to returning
00:10:10: ... where to start
00:11:43: ... tackling current tech and AI
00:13:27: ... gaps in your CV
00:15:47: ... timescale for return
00:19:03: ... recommended resources
00:20:35: ... Julianne's career advice
00:21:53: Interview 2: Mila Fadeeva...
00:22:17: ... a return experience
00:25:35: ... surprises in returning
00:27:15: ... Mila's career advice
00:30:10: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  And today's episode is part of our Squiggly Career Stage Series.  And we're going to be talking about career returners.  So, we've got five episodes in this series, we've got career starters, which is our first episode, one on career changers, one on career setbacks, one on career continuers, and then today on returners.  And as well as us sharing our thoughts on this stage, why we think it's such an important squiggly moment to focus on and get a bit of support with, we've also got some interviews with other people to give you a bit of a wider perspective on this stage.  So, Sarah's going to be talking to Julianne Miles, who is the co-founder and CEO of Career Returners, and I'm going to be speaking to a returner, Mila Fadeeva, who returned to work after a ten-year break, and she's going to be sharing her experience, some of the fears that come with returning when you've been out of the workforce for that long, and some of the really practical things that helped her to return with confidence as well. 

Sarah Ellis: And don't forget, every episode has got a Career Returner Guide, where we've put together links, coach-yourself questions, tools to try out.  Julianne has actually written a few extra bits of advice, and she's supported all of that with how you can follow that advice and what might be helpful, which is brilliant.  You'll find a link to that guide in the show notes and also on our website, which is amazingif.com. 

So, we found a stat, and I think you can find a stat to support most things, which Helen and I were talking about before this podcast, that 62% of employees worldwide have already taken a career break and 84% of millennials, which Helen and I have decided that we just about still count as, plan to take one in the future.  So, Helen, what have career breaks looked like for you so far and any career breaks in the offing that you've not told me about?

Helen Tupper: Oh, so do you know what?  The breaks I've had feel less exciting than the ones I might like to in the future.  So, I would consider that I have had two career breaks and both of them are family-related, which is not to say that that is all career breaks are, but that's what it's looked like for me.  So, I have two children and I had a break for my first, my son, Henry, when I was at Virgin, and then I had a second break for my daughter, Madeline, when I was at Microsoft.  And I think returning from both of those felt challenging for very different reasons.  The first one, because I felt like I wasn't very confident in the decisions that I'd made about how I was returning and what I was doing.  So, I think I was tired and probably emotional and all kinds of things.  So, that break felt hard for different reasons.  The returning second time round after the career break was hard because of the changes that I was returning to in an organisation.  So, both of them were hard for different reasons. 

When I think about breaks that I might like to make in the future, I think they're probably more about nice learning things that I'd to do.  Like we talk about Squiggly Career sabbaticals or just, yeah, I'd like to go study something.  I wouldn't just do nothing, I'd like to go study something without work, but that would be a very different type of break than the ones that I've done.  What about you? 

Sarah Ellis: I do struggle with the idea of 'break' and being on maternity leave, because it did not feel a break to me.  So, same as you, I mean I took a break from my career to have a baby but that was awful.  I suppose it was intended and he was very much wanted and he's a lot better now, eight years on.  But certainly, I suppose like you said, if someone said to me when you're imagining a career break, do I want it to be the career break that I've had?  Absolutely not.  I don't plan to repeat that anytime soon.  I think much more like you, I think I'd like to go and live in another country, which I very briefly got a taste of earlier in my 20s when my partner lived in Switzerland for a bit, and we both really liked it, and I think we were quite tempted at the time and perhaps just a bit scared of the language, not being able to learn a language, which is a very, very fixed mindset.  But Amazing If hadn't emerged then, I didn't know about it!  But I do remember really enjoying it.  It's a different way of life, living in a different way, and so that I can definitely imagine myself doing. 

Then I think also shorter career breaks.  I think often when you imagine career breaks, you think about quite big periods of time.  But I could imagine, and we sort of do this actually, thinking about career breaks, every August, you and I work very differently.  So, we don't do lots of our work with our learning partners, we tend to be reading, researching, writing a book, which again doesn't necessarily feel a break, but it is sort of a break from the day to day.  And actually, that August, we've done that for two years now, that's become really important for me as sort of a milestone during the year, because I think it is doing something different and my rituals and rhythms and routines feel different then.  And I always feel better because of it in September.

So, I think we can be really creative and flexible when we say, 'career break', what that means.  And I am starting to see, and you've mentioned you noticed it as well, on LinkedIn, which I think is really different to, say, when you and I started work, people actually now just talk about their career breaks, what they've been doing.  They will list that as part of what they were doing at that time, and they provide details on what they accomplished.  And I just think at one moment, when everything was very ladder-like, the idea of a career break just felt so unacceptable and something to hide like, "Oh, well, why have you got a gap?  What were you doing?"  You know like, you can never leave a job without another one to go to?  It was such, I don't know, like an assumption around how work worked.  So, I love reading those things now because you just go, well, for some people they're taking career breaks because they might be unexpected caring responsibilities.  Some people might be making a choice, like you say, to learn and do something different.  But I always find that really reassuring when people can just share much more openly what they've been doing at different moments during their squiggly lives, not only their Squiggly Careers. 

Helen Tupper: So, best-case scenario, a career break can be a differentiator.  It creates a bit of a Squiggly Career story, it might help you to develop new skills.  Worst-case scenario, a career break can feel hard for you to return from, and it can feel quite difficult.  And we were looking at something around the career break penalty, where it said, "92% of professionals find it challenging to return to professional role after a long career break".  So, that's the vast majority of people in the current workforce find it hard to come back after a long break.  And lots of people feel like the CV gap is a bit of a barrier to them.  And one of the things that I found really interesting in the research that we did around career breaks was both the perception of other people and what that break means for you and your potential, but also the perception you have of yourself and so confidence.  A lot of people lose confidence after a career break.  And so, they're coming back into the workforce that might feel like it's up against them, to be honest, when you look at the applications and people feeling rejected at this stage.  So, it feels like actually, it's difficult to come back, and that is compounded by a lack of confidence. 

I hope that you can hear in some of the conversations that we have today, particularly my discussion with Mila, how she had those fears after a very long break, but how she responded to them.  I think she's got all sorts of practical insights for people.  And also, if confidence is a factor, which might be affecting how you're feeling at the moment about making a return after a career break, then we've got lots of extra resources that we'll put in the guide that can help you. 

Sarah Ellis: So, first up, you're going to hear my conversation with Julianne Miles, and she is the co-founder of Career Returners.  So, she absolutely knows her stuff.  She has spent so much time with this community, with people who are experiencing returning to work, usually after a break of a couple of years or more.  She gets it and she knows what it looks and feels like.  She knows what helps, she knows what hinders, and what gets in the way.  So, as well as having lots of expert insights, she's also got lots of really practical advice.  So, I hope you find the conversation useful.

Julianne, thank you so much for joining us on the Squiggly Careers podcast.  I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. 

Julianne Miles: Oh, thank you so much, Sarah, for inviting me.  Very much looking forward to our conversation too. 

Sarah Ellis: Our focus for today is all on returning to work, and I think this is really hard for people.  There are lots of barriers, it can feel really daunting where you've not worked for a while, for whatever reason, and then you're now in this position of thinking, "Actually, I do want to go back to work".  It can feel really unfamiliar and people can feel really out of the loop.  And you've been working with communities of returners for a while now, you've got a lot of expertise in this area.  What gets in the way the most?  Because I can think of so many different challenges, but I'm like, well, what's the biggest challenge, I guess?

Julianne Miles: The biggest one and the one that comes up most frequently is a loss of confidence.  We found in our career returners indicator last year, 89% of returners said that their confidence had taken a big hit.  And I think what's interesting about confidence is it's this aspect of a sense of yourself as a competent professional that gets lost and eroded.  So, it's not, "I've lost confidence in my everyday life", but it's, "Do I believe I can do what I did before?"  And that's where we hear these questions from returners, "Am I too old?  Have I been out too long?  Am I even employable?"  Underpinning all of that is a loss of confidence.  So, I think that's the biggest one, and that's virtually ubiquitous. 

I think the second one is feeling really disconnected from the working world and feeling that things have moved on so much, "I don't even know how to get out there and apply for a job.  Never mind, I've got to decide what I want to do, I've got to decide how to get there", so there's so many challenges involved in that.  What comes up is the loss of networks and this sense of feeling isolated.  So, I think that's another bit, the lack of feeling of support there.

Sarah Ellis: Where do you prompt people to start?  Is it just start applying for roles; is it start having conversations?  Like, how do you start to nudge your way back into this? 

Julianne Miles: I think what not to do is don't start immediately, get out there, applying for roles.  What's better initially is to first of all build yourself up from a mindset perspective, because you need to have that belief in yourself in order to start confidently targeting a job.  So, it's a simple exercise, just looking back over your life and listing those achievements and experience.  And then, linked to that is really reconnecting with your strengths and what you're good at.  So, one of the best ways you can find out about your strengths is go and ask other people, get feedback from other people, and that's really reinforcing as well. 

So, the second thing is then far more practical.  So, it's rebuild your networks.  And again, this is tackling this problem of, "I've lost all my networks".  Now, you haven't.  And the wonderful thing about the modern world is you can get there on LinkedIn, you can find out people that you used to work with, and you get back in touch with them.  And it's a little bit daunting at first.  But the more you do that, and the more you talk to people, and the more you say, "I want to get back to work, this is what I'm thinking about doing", the more likely you are to find opportunities out there.  And do get support; get support from friends, from family, from other returners, don't try and do it all on your own.

Sarah Ellis: What would you recommend to people returning, around if they do feel out of touch with technology and AI, is it, "You've just got to have a go, have a play", or is there anything else that I might be missing? 

Julianne Miles: So, I think when you're considering going back to work, some of these challenges that you have, AI can be incredibly helpful.  So, it's just asking simple questions, starting to put in some information about the types of thing you're looking for, see what feedback you get, using it to clarify your transferrable skills.  And then, as you get down the line, you can really use AI to help you to refine your applications and practice your interview skills.  I would say this isn't to write the application for you.  Yeah, big caveat, don't do that, but you can really use it to help you along the way.  It's like a helpful friend.  If you're somebody where that feels too daunting, you're more of a learner, I would say there are many free courses out there.  You can get onto LinkedIn Learning, you can get onto many sources of support online where you can do a simple course in AI.  And once you get into it, you will find that it's much easier than you think.

Sarah Ellis: I'd also reflect and say, don't assume that everybody else is so much further ahead of you.  No one needs to watch you play with ChatGPT.  You could put in a question, "What are the big barriers to returning to work?" and it would give you ten, because it always seems to give you lots rather than a few.  It's often a good place to start. 

Julianne Miles: Everybody is learning.  You don't need to fill your gap in terms of learning, you just need to learn the current tech.  And I find that quite reassuring as a message.  You just need to get up to date right now, rather than filling in everything that happened over the last ten years, say.

Sarah Ellis: What about organisations?  Have you found over the past few years that now organisations are much more receptive to people returning to work, because I guess from a distance, these people could be seen to be more high-risk, they're not in it right now; and so, it's not hard to imagine the barriers that people might see when you see a CV where you're like, "Oh, somebody's not worked for the past five or six years"?  I'd just be interested to know what you've observed there. 

Julianne Miles: The world is changing and there are still barriers and biases out there, so I think there's good and bad news here.  There are still strong biases in mainstream recruitment against people who have a big CV gap.  You can be seen too often as a risky candidate, somebody who can't hit the ground running.  And again, this is the downside of a lot of the technological advances, is you can be screened out by automated systems, just simply because you don't have recent experience.  So, that's the downside, and I think it's important for people to be aware of, because that feeds into some of the reasons why if you just get out there and apply for jobs online, you very rarely hear back.  So, that's the bad news. 

The good news is that more and more employers are recognising what returners can bring.  This is beyond, "We will ignore the CV gap", and more, "We will value the maturity, the fresh perspective, the motivation that returners bring, together with all those skills from before and during their career break".  And that's why, so at Career Returners, we've worked with over 180 employers to bring returners in a supported fashion back into organisations.  So, this is very much targeting returners as a great talent pool who can really offer something special to an organisation.  So, I think as a starting point for somebody coming back, it's worth looking at those employers who are really proactively targeting returners, because you know that they will have really aimed to lower those barriers against you when you're coming in as a returning candidate.

Sarah Ellis: How long does it typically take for people, from maybe that moment where they're like, "I'm going to return to work", I don't know, is it a year, or is it just so different depending on obviously what people want to do?  But I'm imagining it's not quick. 

Julianne Miles: Typically, it takes longer than people think.  It does partly depend on whether you want to go back to exactly what you did before, or whether you are thinking about a pivot or a complete career change.  And tied in with what you just said there about career change taking longer than people think, I think by the time you're combining career change with returning to work, you do need to recognise that there's quite a journey there involved, and not hold yourself back by aiming for perfection straight away.  So, I think the main thing is to start to take action towards where you want to go and to be a bit more creative in your job search.  So, I think not just sitting behind your laptop and applying for hundreds of jobs online and getting very, very disillusioned because you don't get anywhere.  We do find that large numbers of returners get their jobs through network contacts.  And obviously, that takes a bit of time. 

Sarah Ellis: There are moments in your Squiggly career, I think, where spotting what good enough is great, like what does that look like?  "This is actually good enough for now.  This doesn't have to mean that this is what I'm going to do forever".  And I really remember a mentor once saying to me, "Never forget, your next job is not your last job", and I found that really helpful.  You've got to move from thinking into doing.  There's got to be that transition, I guess, to help you move forward.

Julianne Miles: Yeah.  And I think as well to see it as a bit of an exploration phase.  I think particularly if you've had a very long career break, you are easing yourself back in, and that's where things like, you know, taking on skilled volunteering roles as a stepping stone can be helpful if you've had a long career break, but also just getting out there.  Maybe you try and find a project role; you step yourself back into the world of work.  And I think that it helps with your confidence-building, it helps with your network-building, and also helps you to think, "Have I changed what I want at this phase of my life?"  That's where a career break is a fantastic opportunity.  

We've talked a lot about the challenges, but actually you've stepped off the career ladder, and it's one of those rare moments in life you can think, "What do I want to do with the rest of my life?  Has what I want changed?  Have my motivations changed?  Has my life as a whole changed, so what I want from work-life balance has changed?  Or have my values changed?  Or not?  Or, am I actually just super-excited to get back to what I did before?  Or anywhere along that spectrum".  But this is a chance.  This is a chance for you to either do something different or to really re-establish and get very motivated about picking up where you left off.

Sarah Ellis: We spoke beforehand about all of the different resources that are available for people, and people's journeys returning are really quite individual, just all Squiggly Careers are really individual.  But if people are listening now and they're like, "Right, where can I go to get started, to find out more?", where do you want to point people to?

Julianne Miles: First point of call, I would say is get to careerreturners.com.  And we run a pay-if-you-can community.  So, we want to make that accessible to everybody.  It's very low cost to join, but if you can't afford it, then it's free of charge and you can come in and get a wide range of support.  We want every returner to feel as you're not alone out there.  We're here to support you at Career Returners, but also there is a fantastic source of peer support.  And what is really heartwarming is we always see how returners will support each other.  So, also, we have a Career Returners podcast.  Again, that really is helpful for that sense of, "It's possible", you hear other people's stories, it brings it to life.  And, yeah, we've got a Cisco Academy, where you can find some free training courses.  So, we've got a wide range of resources, but also in there, signposts to other, and it might be books to help you build your confidence, or it might be organisations who are job sites for family-friendly working.  So, there's a whole range of other resources that you can find via our website and our community.

Sarah Ellis: That sounds great, thank you.  And our final question, which I always ask all of our guests, partly because I'm curious/nosey, with your experience in mind and your experiences of your Squiggly Career, if you were going to leave our listeners with your best piece of career advice for everyone listening, what would it be? 

Julianne Miles: The most important thing is to value yourself and value what you can bring to an employer, and recognise that all the skills, the experience from life, from work, from study that you've built up during your life makes you special and unique, and you can bring something really, really valuable.  And I think that's incredibly important for returners, but important for everybody out there who is looking for work.  So, value yourself, is my top tip. 

Sarah Ellis: So, Julianne, thank you so much for joining us on Squiggly Careers podcast today.  I've learned a lot from listening to you.  And also, I feel reassured that we are making work and careers better for everyone, wherever you are in your Squiggly Career.  So, thank you.

Julianne Miles: Thank you, Sarah.  It's been a pleasure.

Helen Tupper: So, I hope you found that interesting.  We are now going to move on to a returner.  So, you're going to hear my conversation with Mila Fadeeva, who just talked through, very practically, her experience of returning and what helped her to return with confidence into a role that she now loves, after a ten-year break.

So, Mila, welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.

Mila Fadeeva: Thank you, Helen.  Hi. 

Helen Tupper: To just start with, can you share just on a high level with us what your personal experience of returning in your career has looked like?

Mila Fadeeva: Very hectic.  It was very hectic and I didn't expect it to go this well and this quickly, just to be honest with you.  I actually had a ten-years career break, which is a super-long time, not many career returners have that.  I come from a very competitive corporate world.  I used to work in the Process Excellence department in Maersk Line, the largest container shipping company in the world.  And with the corporate world, you get all those exciting opportunities and projects all around the world.  You can participate in those, you can cherry pick what you actually like to do.  But the bonus that is actually a downside is super-long hours, super-high pressure, and you're always rolling in it and it's impossible to start a family. 

So, I started my family and we had an agreement with my husband.  So, he built his career first, I'm staying at home, I'm raising our son.  And then whenever I'm ready, whenever our son goes to school, not even nursery school, I'll jump in and I'll start my career again.  And that was my biggest fear, to not be needed, to just show up and realise that my skills are out of date, that I'm not good enough.  That was my biggest fear, and that's something that I noticed that many career returners have.  With the women returners, it was a group of us, it's been three girls actually, and we all shared the fears and the ups and downs and everything like that.  That was the biggest fear for many of us, just not being enough, to not fit in, and to not be able to create that rapport, that new routine. 

When you're at home, you're doing whatever you like.  You're practically not bound to any schedules, timings, or anything else, and you plan your own day.  But when you jump into the career world, then it's your job, it's what you need to do, it's all the meetings that you need to attend and you can't just skip and say, "Oh, sorry, I don't feel showing up".  That was really, really scary at first.  But just to jump in and say the best part of it, it was nothing like it.  Returning to the career world was nothing like I actually expected it to be.  It was a lot better.

Helen Tupper: And so, what role did you return to?

Mila Fadeeva: I returned to the same role, to be honest.  It's the Organisational Excellence Manager.  So, it's the same thing, it's improving the processes, it's the change management.  Everything that just pops back in.  So, when I was hired, it was a perfect match.  Probably, that's why I was hired so quickly.  It was shipping and the process improvement.  But that's why I was so excited to start this new job, because it was everything I already knew, just the new industry.  It was very, very transferrable, and that made it a lot easier.

Helen Tupper: And so, what surprised you about that process of returning?  You mentioned that you found a community through Women Returners, and that was very helpful for confidence.  And you talked about actually, you found a good fit.  What else surprised you about that process of returning?

Mila Fadeeva: What surprised me was that the Women Returners offered not just a so-called matching service.  They didn't just match me with the company, they provided the guidance, counselling, the help, and they literally talked us through all the questions we might need to ask the managers, all the questions we might need to prepare, what to discuss, the re-evaluations and everything.  So, there was a huge support there, but the company did a lot as well.  The industry we work in is very specific, but totally expected nothing short of half-an-hour timed puzzles or IQ tests or personality tests at the first interviews.  Nothing, none of that was present.  Only very friendly and professional chats with very nice people.  Lots of laughter, still very professional.  We didn't just sit and laugh around, but it was very relaxed, very nice atmosphere.  And that's when it clicked.  I just realised, people doing these serious jobs naturally laughing about it, there must be something good about these companies, so that's why I joined them.

Helen Tupper: It sounds to me like if I almost have circles and a Venn diagram coming together, there's sort of your readiness, so this is the right time for me to return; there is your relationships with other returners, so I feel a sense of connection and community; there is an organisation that provided support, so the Women Returners for you; and then there is an organisation that's open to returners.  Almost these four things that come together to create a really positive experience for somebody who wants to return to the workforce after, I mean for you it was ten years, for other people it might be shorter, but they're quite significant elements.  I wondered what, I mean, obviously I know that you found that community, you found Women Returners, but for somebody else who might not be connected to that community, just independent of that, what would your advice be for someone who is thinking, "I've been out of the workforce, I want to return, I'm feeling the fears that you talked about", they're in front of you now and you're giving them your advice, what would that advice be?

Mila Fadeeva: Take the leap.  Take the leap, don't be afraid.  The person that's sitting opposite you, they're probably running the tenth interview this week and they're desperately wishing for you to be the right candidate.  They're not there to pull you down or to ask you tricky questions or to make sure that you fail.  Their biggest wish is to hire you.  They're just pecking whether you're the right match.  If it's a match, that's it.  All you have to do is just show up and be yourself.  And what actually helped me as well, to boost my confidence by getting new industry certificates.  I refreshed some of the industry-specific certificates that I knew I needed for my next job, and I got the new ones, got the change management, I think, and it helped me a lot, just to feel more confident, to answer the questions, and show that I'm still probably a bit behind, but I'm still ready to learn, ready to pick it up and trying to keep on top of things, not yet there, but making an effort. 

Just be yourself and whatever makes you confident.  Oh, and wear your best clothes.  Wear your best clothes at interview, even if it's an audio one.  You will feel a lot more confident just wearing your best outfit, it will help you find the right answers and go with the flow.  You'll be successful.  I'm wishing that for anyone who's actually just returning to work, whoever is thinking about it and whoever is literally just in the process of taking a career break, you'll be fine, I promise! 

Helen Tupper: Oh, Mila, thank you so much.  Congratulations on your return, all the things that you're achieving, and thank you for sharing your insights with our audience too.

So, we hope you found those conversations useful, and obviously if you are somebody who is thinking about returning, we want to make sure that you've got all the support you need.  So, please download the Career Stage Guide that supports this episode.  It's in the show notes, it's also on our website at amazingif.com.  That guide also features an interview with Jane van Zyl who is the CEO of the Working Families charity.  There is a lot of support there if the reason for your break is related to family reasons, so all of that will be together.  If you can't find any of the resources that we've created, please just email us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, and we will send you the links. 

Sarah Ellis: But that's everything for this episode.  Thank you so much for listening and we're back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.