Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:54: Systemic causes of burnout

00:04:18: Significant statements

00:11:11: Surprising topics

00:16:30: Take-away actions

00:20:40: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And you're listening to week three of the Squiggly Careers Videobook Club.  So, this is the series that we are running in association with LIT Videobooks in January, where LIT Videobooks have given everybody who's part of the Videobook Club free access to their library of videobooks.  And we have selected four to focus on, four that we weren't necessarily that familiar with beforehand, that we have watched for everybody and we've tried to take our insights and think how they would apply to career development.  But you can also watch it along too and get involved.

So, this week our focus is on Burnout, that is the videobook that we have been watching.  So, today in this episode, Sarah and I are going to talk about our takeouts from watching the videobook, and what we found interesting and useful.  And then tomorrow, you're going to hear a conversation with Sarah and one of the authors of Burnout, Amelia Nagoski.

Sarah Ellis: So, it's worth saying, with this videobook, that the focus isn't really burnout at work, it's more the systemic causes of burnout.  And their focus is in particular on women, why women might experience burnout.  And so, I think if you are curious to learn more about that, there's some really interesting research and they go way, way, way beyond work and into kind of lots of different areas of life.  If you're more interested in burnout at work, I think you can watch the first chapter and probably listen to our conversations, and you'll probably get what you need to apply to your job and your day-to-day work.  So, it is quite a different videobook. 

There were some surprises along the way, made Helen and I kind of -- we were like, "Oh, okay, this is quite different to maybe what we would normally focus on".  And so, have a go.  I think it's one of those where you have to see what you think, see whether it works for you or not.  But I do think some of the ideas are really useful once you connect the dots between the research that they've drawn together and done themselves, and then how you can apply that in your day-to-day.

Helen Tupper: And the 'them' is two sisters, so they are twins, the book has been written by twins, so you get to see the twins talking through their insights.  One separate thing, which has nothing to do with burnout really, but it was more something that I found useful yesterday.  So, I watched this videobook when I was on the train going into London, and I thought it was really good.  So, I logged into the LIT videobooks and then I was making my notes at the same time, and it was on my phone so the screen was hovering over my notes so I could watch it at the same time.  So, I opened my notes app on my phone, and then the little video was just sitting on the top of it and I actually found that really useful, so that I could just type up my notes as I was watching.  I was like, "Oh, that's actually quite a useful, efficient way of learning.  I liked it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that is good.  And with the videobooks, you can download them before commuting so you don't need wi-fi.  So, I did that actually for a few of them when I knew I'd got a train journey, so that's good.  And actually, you're right, because I found I was often watching them at home on my laptop and I would have to pause or be like, "I just need to write that down" or, "I just need to go back over that bit".  That would have helped me actually to be simultaneously making notes. 

I do fine with the videobooks actually, I definitely engage with them the most when I was making notes, writing things down, which we know, we know you learn more from that.  But the minute I just relaxed too much, almost like sat back in my chair and just watched it, I got distracted.  I was like, "Oh, I need to just do this, or what about this?" and I found it quite hard, I found it quite hard to just stick with it.  Whereas when I was like, "No, what's standing out for me?  What's surprising me?  What action am I going to take?" and then actually, almost to be able to do that, I had to get rid of the distractions. It's quite interesting, I think, the process, because it's like a new way of learning, you have to figure out how to make sure you are actually learning from it, rather than just a few times I was like, "I'm watching a squirrel out of my window, and I've just missed the last five minutes.

Helen Tupper: "Back to it"!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, totally!  And so, Sarah and I have watched all the videobooks with three questions in mind.  And the questions are, what statement has stuck; what surprised you; and what are you going to put into action?  And I would say, whether you watch the ones that we've recommended or any of the other LIT videobooks in the library, just to be a bit more intentional about your watching and learning.  I think it's quite useful to do it with those three questions in mind.  So, Sarah, from Burnout: Solving Your Stress Cycle, what was something that stuck?

Sarah Ellis: Well, there was a phrase they used, which was, "Meaning is something that you make". 

So, one of the points they make in burnout is that you're less likely to burn out if you are connected to something bigger than yourself.  And that doesn't have to mean saving the world, but that, I suppose, does mean that you feel that you are contributing in some way.  So, that might be you've got a very clear sense of legacy, they use the word legacy like, "If I've managed to do these things through the work that I do, I will feel good about that".  It can be to do with community. 

And actually, they use a phrase that we use, which is they say, "A good way to figure out your meaning in a very practical way is just to ask yourself, 'What do we want people to say about us?'"  And I was like, "Oh, okay, yeah, I think that is a good starting point". Also, I could quickly then connect the dots, because I was really watching this through the work lens and thinking, "Well, what do I want people to say about the work that we do at Squiggly Careers and at Amazing If?" 

And then I can connect those dots to go, I want people to say it's useful, I want people to recommend it by saying, "This has really helped me.  This has practically made a difference to how I approach a career conversation or an interview or increasing my confidence".  It definitely resonates with me that when you are feeling more stressed, if you go back to the 'why' like, "Why does this matter to me?" often you can find your way through those more stressful moments, because it gives you that boost of motivation.

So, you might be thinking, "It has been a really busy couple of days", or I don't know, if it's you and I, usually we've over committed, we're doing too much.  We had that chat before we even started this podcast.  But I was like, "Oh, but do you know what?  If we do things that are useful and that people use in their work, that's great, that's what we are here to do".  So, I found that really helpful.  And it reminded me actually of a quote that I'll come back to in a second from Natalie Campbell. 

So, Natalie, who is the Co-Chief Executive of Belu, which is a water brand, which I think they're either a social enterprise or a community partnership, so they give all their profits, I think, to a water charity, she ran to be mayor of London.  She's really inspirational, she's been on the podcast before.  She gave us a quote in her best piece of career advice for You Coach You, which I think has that same sense of when you're thinking about purpose and meaning.  And she says, "Start by letting go of the idea of finding your purpose.  It is not in lost property somewhere, it is in your consciousness.  So, the first step is listen to the moments that bring you the most joy, comfort and ease.  This is where the core of your purpose resides".  And then she goes on and describes a bit more about it. But you know when you hear common threads and themes in different places, I don't know, it reinforces to you, like, Natalie wasn't talking about burnout, but she's come to some of the same conclusions as maybe the research.  So, that stood out and I really like that phrase, "Meaning is something you make".  What about you?

Helen Tupper: Well, the statement, it was, "Do a thing", which I'll come back to and explain why it stuck for me.  But on the meaning, because I wrote that bit down as well, I find it useful and I liked, they talked about three ways that you can get meaning.  So, legacy, so I guess the dent that I have made through my work, that idea; services others, meaning because I make a difference to other people; and also connection, like I'm part of a community.  I just thought, if people are thinking, "Oh, how do I get to meaning?" I wrote those things down, I thought that was quite useful.  And they also said, as well as asking the question that Sarah talked about, the obituary thing.  So, imagine you're 90 on a park bench, what do you want people to say about you, all that stuff. 

Just interesting, isn't it, "What does meaning mean to you?" and, "If you've got more meaning, it might help you to manage your stress".  I definitely took that away. The statement that stuck, "Do a thing", so they talked about learned helplessness, which is something that Martin Seligman talks about in his work on optimism.  The learned helplessness is when we're in a situation and I think we feel like we can't influence it, and so we don't take action over time.  And so, maybe you're at work, you're going through a restructure, or maybe you feel like you've got a bad relationship with your manager or, you know, learned helplessness means over time, we just don't feel like we can have control over that situation or influence it in any way.  And I think lots of people have that sometimes, they're just like, "I've just got to accept it, I've just got to get on with it", and then it's a continual source of stress. What I liked was that they said, basically, the best thing to do in that situation is, "Do a thing". 

It doesn't have to be the thing that solves the situation.  So, it's not like, go and fix a relationship with your manager, or you don't have to resolve the restructure, or whatever is going on, but actually just doing one thing, some little thing that's in your control, which might be, I don't know, even take a day's holiday and go and do some learning, or go and ask for a mentor or something.  It doesn't have to be that the thing that solves the source of stress, but just taking some kind of action can be a reaction, a positive reaction to a situation where you feel very out of control.  Just do a thing, pretty much anything; but doing nothing means that you're stuck in this stress situation, and doing a thing is one way that you feel more control over it and over what you're doing.

Sarah Ellis: We talked about it before on the podcast with people like Jen Moss, I think we talked about burnout before, but it is something to take seriously, because when you look at the consequences of burnout, whether that's in a different part of your life or at work, over and over again it shows that if you get burnout, you get to the point where you have a decreased sense of accomplishment, so you just feel like what you do doesn't matter; you're less creative; your processing capacity goes down; you're not as able to solve problems; and you can't do large-scale thinking.  When we've talked about it before on the podcast, I think I'm never sure I've been fully burnt out where I've needed to do something very dramatic in terms of taking a break. 

But every time I've got close to, I think, burnout, I do notice that all of those behaviours diminish.  My ability to zoom out, to think big, to think creatively, you get smaller in every way. I think if you can notice that happening, because I do think it tends to creep up, it's lots of repeated actions.  So, if you're at work, for example, it might be you feel a bit overwhelmed, but then the next week you're still feeling a bit overwhelmed, and then the next month you're still.  It tends to be like that.  

And I'm thinking gradually, and maybe before you even notice it, it has got to the point where you're like, "I can't remember the last time I didn't feel really overwhelmed and I don't feel very creative and I can't think big and I'm struggling to solve problems".  I think the more we can spot those signals for ourselves and also for each other, I think it can be really helpful to see in each other, the more we can support ourselves and support other people too.  So, what surprised you?  Did anything surprise you?

Helen Tupper: Well, so in the first chapter, and again, that's probably the one that, as we said, is most relevant to work, there's quite a lot in that.  Just this idea of the stress cycle surprised me, I think. 

So, they talk about, when you're getting stressed, the thing that stuck with me was that you need to discharge the stress.  But it's just this idea that if you don't build into a busy day or a stressful week, if you don't build some way of discharging stress, and finding meaning is one of them, exercise could be another one, I think we all might have different ways in which we discharge stress and they do talk through some ways, then basically your body can't complete the stress cycle.  And what they say is that your body basically then holds on to that stress, and it can result in health problems, and that's some of the things that Sarah just talked about there. 

I think just literally thinking like, "How am I discharging stress?" They talk about the power of exercise and whether that can be a physical thing, or actually just sitting at your desk and kind of tense breathing or even tensing all your muscles up, that's one of the examples that they give; tense all your muscles up for a minute and then letting go.  So, it doesn't have to be crazy physical exercise.  But it did just make me think, you know, I go on about my peloton all the time, I'm actually dressed to peloton today, but for me that is actually, I think, part of how I complete my stress cycle, because I get on there and afterwards I just feel like I can get back to it now.  And, yeah, I just like that idea of if we don't complete this cycle, then our body holds on to the stress and that has negative outcomes.  So, think about this thing as just a way of keeping your body healthy, just discharging whatever's built up.  That just definitely stuck with me.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, the same for me.  I think it was this idea of releasing the stress.  It's a different process to coping with stress in the moment.  I think that's what they are very clear about.  You've got to disconnect coping with the stress in the moment.  And I think sometimes we would think, "That's it, I've coped with the stressful moment".  But actually, you need a separate process, which is kind of the releasing.  I was talking to Helen about this before and I was like, let's imagine, and obviously this is imagining, I'm really annoying Helen.  We're having a difficult conversation that feels stressful.  We would have those conversations and I might think, "Oh, okay, well I felt like I stayed really open in that conversation and I dealt with it, I dealt with maybe some hard-to-hear feedback well and we got to some good outcomes".  And so I might think, "Oh, that's okay, it was stressful but I did the right things", and you might feel good about yourself. I think the bit that I wouldn't have then always thought about is going, "Oh, yes, but I've not released that stress. 

I did well in that moment and that is a good thing".  So, at work, I think we can all identify those moments that feel stressful to some extent, depending on what that scale is, from a very difficult manager, because it tends to be people-related, or it could be workload, I guess, rather than people, could just be like, "I dealt with the stress of my day.  Something new came in that then I had to change my priorities", and so we might almost go, "Well, I did it, I dealt with that stress", and you did.  But then thinking about, "Okay, well, what action do I need to take to release that stress so that it doesn't build up over time?" and then if it builds up, that's when you're get to burnout. It did really remind me of just how important it is to find active rest.  And we've talked before about active rest.  And active rest can be, and they do give this an example, maybe you're making something, could be anything creative.  So, actually I had some people in workshops this week talking to me about knitting, how much they like knitting and gaming.  So, knitting, gaming, both good examples of active rest, as well as the more classic examples, like go for a run, lift some weights, go and play table tennis.  I say that because me and my partner bought each other a table tennis table for Christmas!  That's going to be my active rest in 2025.  I'm very excited about it.  But jokes to one side, that would probably be good for me.  So, almost going, "Do you know what?  That has been quite difficult.  I am just going to go and play table tennis for five minutes or 10 minutes".  I'd have to be fully in it, because obviously I'd want to win.

Helen Tupper: Sarah's quite competitive at everything.

Sarah Ellis: I'm quite competitive.  But that would be a good release of stress for me.  I guess it is potentially some of the logic behind why, for a while, workplaces went crazy with the, "We're going to put all of these fun things in the office".  There probably is some rationale behind why that might be good, but not if that's a substitute for actual meaningful work and being paid well.  A table tennis table doesn't make up for that.  But actually, if all the hygiene factors are in place… I saw a company recently, one I went to visit earlier this year, where they have loads of board games.  And actually, I saw loads of people playing board games and just having fun.  And I have to say, it wasn't in the UK.

Helen Tupper: What's your favourite board game, Sarah?

Sarah Ellis: Interesting.  I don't love board games.  I'd rather play a game, you know, like table tennis.

Helen Tupper: So, more active.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I actually do like charades, because my 7-year-old likes charades.

Helen Tupper: I feel like that's not a board game!

Sarah Ellis: Oh, isn't it?  Does that not count?  Okay.

Helen Tupper: That is an active!  I love that, I love how you've taken board game and turned it into an active!

Sarah Ellis: Oh, it doesn't count?  I feel like you've asked that question because you are -- what is your favourite board game?

Helen Tupper: Well, you know I'm board-game-y, because that's the sort of thing that I would do as a family, like play a board game.  No, my son, who is the ultimate strategist, beats me on everything, so, any board game he's got.  So, it's like Cluedo; wins every time.  I feel like every board game.  But yeah, I like all board games, they're fun.  So, what might you do as a result of having watched this videobook?

Sarah Ellis: I think the key action for me was recognising the different ways to complete the stress cycle.  So, it's not like there's one way, you can quickly complete the stress cycle by some four-box breathing.  So, you know if you just wanted to do a bit of decompressing, and I know that, but I don't think I do that particularly regularly, but also making more of a commitment to active rest, I think in 2025.  It sounds like a small thing, but I've recently moved house and I'd got active rest in place close to where I used to live, so it was convenient to active rest, and so it really worked for me.  And then I've moved and I need to rediscover what that might look like, just because actually there are some practical constraints that make it a bit harder where I am now, like we only have one car, I don't live as close to somewhere that I can just walk to, and I just need to think about it. But I know, we always know, exercise is good.  

But you know when you watch these things and it just really reminds you, it's like basically do anything, do any exercise.  And I think it's so easy to get into the habit of not.  I'm good at walking, I do go out for a walk, but I almost don't count that as exercise because I think, "Well, my heart rate never goes up for a start", and I'm almost using that more as a kind of getting some energy and moving my body, because I'm about to start work and it's maybe my own version of a commute if I'm working at home.  And I don't think a walk releases my stress cycle, because usually I'm thinking about work or I'm preparing for work, and it's at the start of a day, not at the end of a day.

 And so, I think I need to end my days releasing stress and I don't think I do that at the moment, because I think often I'm working where I will just walk downstairs, and maybe not have that boundary of like, I've gone and done something, not done some active rest. This one combined with talking to Katie about change, I'm definitely starting to do that fresh start effect, and it always starts with like, "Right, in 2025, I will do these things".  And also, trying to be really realistic about how to make that happen, rather than too vague.  What about you?

Helen Tupper: Mine was the meaning thing.  So, Emily, one of the sisters, was very articulate, because she could just say what her meaning is in a statement.  And I thought, "Oh, I know what our company's meaning is, about making careers better for everybody.  But my personal meaning, I think, might be slightly, well, just a little bit more individual.  And I don't think I could -- well, I can't say it now.  If you said, "What gives you meaning at work?"  And so I thought, I started to write it down, like I said, when I was on the train, because I had my notes open, I started to write something down.  I was like, "It's getting there". 

And then, one of the things that they said is, you can ask other people.  And I could say to you, "Where do you see me get meaning in my work?"  And I might ask a couple of people that and just see if I can get to a statement that I can identify with that I go, "Yeah, that's why I do what I do.  That's the thing that gives me the most meaning". 

I'd like to take that as an action away from it.

Sarah Ellis: It's a good way of doing it, because I was like, "Oh, yeah, if I was thinking about you…" and obviously company missions and purposes are always more universal, like, "Oh, we want to make Squiggly Careers better for everyone", it's not going to be an individual statement.  And also, I was thinking, well, for you, I'd be really surprised if there wasn't something more people-y in there.  And I'd expect there to be something around energy.  The energy and the people and bringing people together and the energy that you get from that, I was like, "That feels more like you".  I think mine would be about ideas, like ideas that are useful for people, probably as simple as that.  That ability to do something maybe that hasn't been done before, but that then you see people use and that you're like, "Oh, yeah, people could point to that", and be like, well, you've created something here that's made a difference. 

Because when I think about what I'm proud of it, it's always where we have created something. Probably also, I'd have something about creating with other people, because my favourite creations, the ideas that I feel most connected to, are never the ones that I've done solo, they're always ones that we've worked on together.  So, maybe it's about collaborative creation.  But it's a good question you see.  So, yeah, it makes you think it through

. Helen Tupper: I've added energy into my work-in-progress statement, so thank you for that little build.  So, that is it for today.  Don't forget that tomorrow, you've got Sarah, who's going to be talking to Amelia, just to get her direct perspective on the work, and also make those connections to career development.  And then next week is the last week of the Videobook Club, where we are going to be looking at Predictably Irrational, a videobook by Dan Ariely. 

So, we'll be diving into that, and then I've got a conversation with Dan about that as well. Sarah Ellis: So, that's everything for this week.  Back with you again soon.  Bye for now.