Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:59: Why influence is important

00:02:36: Seven skills of influence

00:04:03: Significant statements

00:10:27: Surprising topics

00:15:01: Take-away actions

00:20:21: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And you're listening to the second week of the Squiggly Careers Videobook Club.  So, this is something that we have created to kickstart your learning in 2025, and also create a bit of a community around something we really care about, which is development and focusing on your career development.  Today, Sarah and I are going to talk about a videobook which was recorded by Bob Cialdini and it's called Influence: the Psychology of Persuasion.

Sarah Ellis: And so, why is influence important in our Squiggly Careers?  I think there are a few things when you think about influence.  I was reflecting on, when do we need to have influence in Squiggly Careers, and I think there's two 'whens'.  There's the when that's connected to your work, to your day job, and then there's the when that's connected more to your career. 

So, I think in your career, there are certain moments that matter where you are looking to have a lot of influence.  So, if you're in an interview, you're trying to influence that person to give you a role; if you are making a career change, you're trying to influence somebody that you've got those transferable talents, you're trying to persuade people; and I think in a more day-to-day way, which I think is how influence typically probably shows up more commonly, we are all trying to influence each other, I think, all of the time, which can feel a bit uncomfortable.  I think as I was going through this videobook, quite a few of the concepts and ideas did make me a bit uncomfortable.  But I think here, this is really about just being smart.

So, if we want to have impact, often we need to share our work with other people, we want other people to be on board with that work, to support and to sponsor that work, so I do think influence doesn't have to be -- we're not manipulating.  As I was going through, the reconciliation I think I got through in my own mind with some of these ideas was, there is a difference between influence to increase your impact, and manipulation, which is more, I don't know, seedy, and you're doing something in not a very nice way just to get a yes or just to get your own way. 

And then, when I think about the people I've worked with who have really incredible influence, I would never describe them as manipulative.  I would just always describe them as, they knew how to build really brilliant relationships.  And I think there's a really strong connection between your ability to build brilliant relationships and then your ability to influence.  That was the process I went through as I watched the videobook!

Helen Tupper: Well, to be fair, I think Bob Cialdini in the videobook does acknowledge that on quite a few points.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, he does.

Helen Tupper: So, if this is the first time you're coming across his work, he basically talks through these seven different skills really of influence, these different things that you can do to influence an outcome.  And I've come across his work years and years ago.  I mean, his book is a New York Times bestseller, and then some.  And I think I came across it in the context of marketing probably like ten years ago, because in marketing, a lot of time you're trying to influence someone to purchase.  And so, they're particularly relevant to that profession, as well as work and careers more broadly.  But he does talk in the videobook about when somebody might be using this particular skill of influence in a way that is a bit more manipulative, and what are the watch-outs for that.  So, I think he does cover it.  And his insights about these skills are based on years and years of research. 

So, in the videobook and his actual book, there's a lot of research that he talks through to bring these things to life. So today, Sarah and I are going to talk about some of those skills. 

We're going to talk about things that stuck with us and things that we found surprising and things we're going to do as a result of watching the videobook.  And then tomorrow, you'll hear a conversation with me and Bob, where he actually shares a few more of those sort of research stories.  You'll hear a little bit more from his perspective, several years on after writing the book, his sort of updated view, because in fact there's a new skill that he added more recently, which is something called 'unity', the power of unity in influencing people.  But we shall see whether that was something that stuck with Sarah or not.  So, go on, let's start.  What was something that stuck with you from watching the videobook?

Sarah Ellis: Well, the phrase that I wrote down was this idea of 'peersuasion'.  And this is the concept of what he describes as 'social proofing', which is essentially we are really impacted by our peers, so what other people are doing, people that we maybe feel are similar to us, or even just doing a similar thing to us.  When we make decisions, we are almost less influenced by what we think and more influenced often by what other people think.  And again, I go, "Oh, I can see how that is true, but also I want to be influenced by what I think". 

But if you then think about shopping, so when you go onto lots of websites now, it always says, you know, "29 other people are looking at this item", really a boring item I'm usually buying for my new house, like this bin, it's usually a bin.  "29 other people are looking at this bin", or things like, "5 other people have got this bin in their basket" and I think it creates a sense of urgency and he talks about this FOMO, Fear Of Missing Out.  And I almost felt like actually understanding that, sometimes understanding some of these tactics, you can make a choice about whether to be influenced by them.  So, rather than just thinking, "Well, I'll buy this bin because everybody's buying this bin", you think, "Well, do I really want this bin?  Is this the right bin for me?" which tells you a bit about what's happening in my life right now and how boring it is!

Helen Tupper: It's a lot of bin chat!

Sarah Ellis: It's a lot of bin chat.  But I was thinking from a work context, I do think it is interesting, because often I think when you're trying to influence, you think about the person.  So, I might be like, "Oh, I need to influence Helen around this decision that I need her to say yes to".  And that might be true.  But one other thing that I might want to do is think about, well, who does Helen spend time with?  And who is Helen influenced by? 

Because I've often seen this with leadership teams.  Like, this is why people end up, maybe before decisions, going to have conversations with quite a few different people, because if you can get a few people on board and then if Helen wasn't that sure but her peers were all saying, "Oh, yeah, I think this is a good idea, I think we should be investing in this", then Helen might have been on the fence, but maybe that's the kind of tipping point to think, "Okay, well, I respect the opinions of the people that I work with, the peers that I work with, and so actually, it's an interesting way of influencing. I was starting to think about careers and taking actions around careers, and how we could help people with that by sort of going, well, actually, if you create a really strong community, if you think about peersuasion as community, which is another take on it, actually communities acting together and sharing what they're doing will help to influence, have a really positive ripple effect.  So, someone could say, "Oh, well, I tried asking this strengths feedback question.  This is the question I asked, and do you know what?  It worked really well".  And then in that community, you go, "Oh, okay, well, they're all part of the Squiggly Careers community, maybe I'll have a go at asking that question".  I could imagine then the ripple effects of peersuasion actually being really positive if you put that community lens on it, "Oh, but he doesn't talk about that, but this was me making my own connections", so that's where I got to.

Helen Tupper: I think that is also why we are asking people to share their badges to say, you know, "I'm part of the Videobook Club", because when you see people like you learning, it makes you want to learn too.  There's something he said, I wrote down, in the videobook on this point, and he said, "If they can, I can".  That's kind of part of the peersuasion.  And so, if you haven't shared your Videobook Club badge yet, please do, because then more people will want to learn like you are. The thing that stuck for me was the points he said about authority. 

So, one of his principles is that we are influenced by people in positions of authority.  And there's something I think in what he said, which is helpful for you to know, so how you can influence people with your authority.  And then I think it's also, you know, Sarah talked about the watch-outs.  I think there's a bit of a watch-out to this as well.  So, specifically what he said that stuck with me was that, "You can get authority either because you are in authority", which is positional power, you know, you're a manager, you're a director, you're a head of the project, whatever it is, so positional power, "or you are an authority", so you are seen as somebody who has expertise in that area.  And I think we are not always in authority, we've not always got that role in a company, but I think that you have the power to become an authority. So, if I think about us, I haven't had a Head of HR job in a big corporate, but I would argue that we are an authority on career development, because we have really focused on that area and we've done a lot of work on that area and we've written books on it.  But that is something that no one said to us you can or can't do that, we decided to do that and we've become an authority in that area. 

I do like the idea that that is something that's in all of our control.  We might not be in authority, but we can all become an authority, and that has influence over others.  So, I like that, that stuck with me, because I felt it's far more liberating than the ladder, right?  The ladder is all about being the authority because of positional power, and I find this thought more liberating. But the watch-out is the fact that we are influenced by these things, particularly people who are in authority, so they've got that positional power.  That can be everything from they're a senior director or they're a doctor or, you know, these things where we put labels on people because we see them as someone who is in authority. 

But just because they are in authority does not mean that what they say, you have to go along with or believe.  I think just having a bit of a pause and saying, "Just because you are in authority, does that mean I really want to be influenced by you?" and just asking yourself that question, because intuitively, that does have an impact on us; but if you pause and just question, "But do I really want to be influenced by you just because you're in authority?", I think it's quite a good behaviour to build in the way that you think and the way that you want to be influenced by things.  So, what surprised you then?  What was something you were like, "Oh, didn't expect that"?

Sarah Ellis: There was an example that he shared about shopping trolleys or shopping carts, as I think they're described in the US.  It surprised me and felt really memorable as often, I think maybe sometimes we'll make the mistake of thinking, if you have a good idea for something, that will create influence, like if the quality of the idea is good, that's good enough.  So, I'll share an idea with you, and I'll be like, "I feel like I'm really confident in this idea and actually, by me sharing the idea, that will influence you, because as long as I share it in the right way, it's a good idea". 

But this example proves that a good idea is often not good enough to persuade people, to influence people, particularly around, I guess, behaviour change or doing something different. The shopping trolley example is, years and years ago, there's basically the guy, he owned some supermarkets and he went and watched his customers, which I always think is a really smart way to think about influence, like go and spend time with people.  We sometimes talk about empathy experiences, you know, spend time observing, watching how do people actually behave rather than claim they behave, which often there's quite a big difference between those things.  And from spending time in his supermarkets, he realised that people's baskets, which is all people had at that time, when they got too full, obviously they got too heavy and then you spend less money, you stop shopping.  And he invented the shopping trolley.  And I was like, "Amazing, what an innovation!"  And you would imagine that idea would speak for itself.  I'm like, you shouldn't have to influence people, surely you're just like, "But look, it's bigger and on wheels!"

Helen Tupper: "A bigger basket on wheels, amazing!"

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, but nobody used them.  So, people didn't use them because people would literally walk past them and everybody defaults back to old behaviour.  And the way that he got people, the way that he influenced and persuaded people to at least give them a try, was he basically used his own people to then go and basically role-model the behaviour that he was looking for.  And so, then I think it does need to be a good idea, because if you go and try it and it doesn't work, then obviously it does fall down.  But I thought it was a really useful reminder, as somebody who loves coming up with ideas, that ideas alone are often not enough. 

You need to get people trying it and you need to think about how do you make it easy to do that, how can you get other people role-modelling it, those kind of early adopters.  And sometimes, you might have to think really creatively about what that looks like, and that can start the influence and persuasion that then gives your ideas the legs that you're looking for. So, yeah, I mean partly probably because I've worked in supermarket, but I just loved the example.  I thought it was a really interesting story, and I could really connect it to the work that we do, where sometimes I think I would be a bit guilty of sometimes thinking, "Well, what we've come up with is so brilliant, it'll be fine, because it's so brilliant.  Why would people not want to use this?"  Whereas you're like, "Okay, actually, we've got to work a bit harder".  It was a good reminder.

Helen Tupper: There was one thing that I was like, "That is a good point", which is the, 'get a small yes to a bigger yes'.  I was like, "Oh, I'd forgotten about that point".  So, again, in the videobook, there's this example given about they wanted people to put a big sign outside their house about, was it about environmental things or something, recycling?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: I can't remember.  They wanted people to put a big sign and people just wouldn't do that, because who wants a giant sign outside their lovely house?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, on their lawn.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  And so, that was a big ask and they got a big no.  So, what they did instead in the experiment was they knocked at the houses and they said, "Would you support this campaign we're doing by putting a small sticker in your window?  And because that was a smaller ask, they got more yeses.  But the really interesting thing is, when they went back to those houses a week or two later and said, "Thank you for your support, would you be willing to put this sign in your garden to help us?" far more people said yes. 

So, I think at work, if there's a big ask, maybe don't go in first with a big ask.  Think about what would be a smaller ask that is more likely to lead to a yes, and then you've got that small commitment. 

And it means that then, when you go in with a slightly bigger ask, you're starting from a slightly different place.  I'd sort of forgotten that point, and I thought that's quite a good way, because sometimes you just focus on the big thing that you want, and then you get a no and you feel a bit defeated by it.  But going, "Well, if that's what I want, what's the first thing I'm going to ask for?" to almost warm the conversation up, and then I can go back to that person for the bigger thing. So, moving on to action then, what are you going to do differently as a result of having watched this videobook?

Sarah Ellis: Well, one of the things that did stand out for me was exactly what you've just described, around small actions lead to significant actions.  And he describes in particular, if you do want to influence someone to do something, if they have an action that is consistent, really active and public, like you've actually shared an action, I guess it's like sharing a videobook on LinkedIn, that's a public forum; I bet, it's a hypothesis, but I bet if you share that you're part of the Videobook Club on LinkedIn, you are much more likely to watch all of the videobooks, just because you have publicly committed, even though no one's watching you or holding you to account.

Helen Tupper: I am everybody, I am!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, apart from Helen, who somehow is watching you all!  So, I was thinking about, I wonder what this could mean for how we approach career development.  So, often we do, in our workshops and in our programmes, we will talk about small actions.  So, I was like, "Oh, that's a good thing".  So, rather than us saying, we might talk about strengths-based feedback is a good thing, but then we would always drill down to it; one small action you can take is, ask your manager or a colleague three words to describe me at my best.  Or rather than saying, explore your values, we would say, write down three things that matter to you at work.  So, I was like, "Oh, that's good". 

So, I think we do the small action thing well. What I don't think we do as well is the making it public.  So, often at the end of a workshop, I will say to people, or at the end of a programme, I will often say to people, "Share in the chat now the one action you're going to take", and I get some people doing that, but way fewer than I would have in that group.  And so, I'm not getting that many people to share publicly their action.  And then as a result, I'm probably influencing those people less than I would want to, because I want those people to go and take those actions.  And I remember the example in the videobook of, Bob Cialdini was trying to get his students' parents to fill out a form, and basically none of them did it because who likes filling out a form?  And then he changed his approach where he said to the parents, "If you fill out this form, your kid will get one extra point in their assignment", or whatever it was.  And I was like, "Oh, that's interesting".  You're just giving people a small motivator to do something that you want them to do. 

You're trying to influence them to do it. I was thinking, there's no payoff really.  There's no promise or no payoff that I give people as part of our learning to share their action.  I just basically say -- I do say, "Share it, and if you share it, you're more likely to commit to it", like sharing works.  But there's no immediate payoff, there's no in-the-moment payoff.  And so I was thinking, how could I end those sessions differently that would mean, let's say 25% of people share their small action now, what would it take for me to influence 85% of those people to share their small action? 

So, I was thinking maybe that would be, for everyone who shares their action, could we then immediately send them something for free?  Could we send them a short version of Gremlins, like how to overcome your confidence Gremlins?  Could we share with them some exclusive content that you only get if you've shared your action. So, I hadn't quite got to what I would then give that people would really value, because I think it's got to be something like, everybody wants one more point on their assignment, right?  So, I like how simple and easy and compelling that is.  And so, I hadn't quite got yet to what our thing would be, but I did like the psychology of that.  And I believe that that was a win-win.  It's a win for us if people go away and take action, like we're influencing people to take action because it will create a snowball effect of development and learning; and I believe that I am influencing people for the right reasons, it felt like a good thing to influence.

Helen Tupper: So, I did have the peersuasion thing as well, but I think one of the actions I would like to take is, one of the principles that we haven't talked about too much yet is reciprocation.  So, if I help someone, they are more likely to help me, so I can influence them by giving first.  And I kind of knew that, we've talked about that before, it's something that comes up in Adam Grant's work on Give and Take, and we have this principle in our work called, 'people helping people', which is sort of based on that, that people like to give and givers get more.  So, I kind of already knew that. 

But the thing that I took from the videobook was that the timing is really important.  So, if you are giving to somebody with the intent, I think, of influencing, and I don't think all giving is with the intent of influencing, but if you are giving with the intent of influencing, then the timing of that is important. So, I'm not going to give to Sarah on a Monday and then in two weeks' time, make an ask.  I just need to think about, well, when is Sarah going to be almost most receptive to reciprocation, and just think a little bit more intentionally about who I'm giving to and what I'm giving and when I'm giving.

  Because I think I like giving, giving feels good.  But if I want to influence then I just need to be a bit more intentional.  That's probably just the action I've taken away from it. So, that is the end of today.  We would love to hear your reflections if you've been watching the videobook.  So, you can either email us those thoughts and insights.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com, or you can join the community conversation which is happening on LinkedIn live this week, the week of the podcast, on Thursday.  So, we'd love to see you there and hear what you've got to say if you want to join that.  And we also want to say a big thank you to Lit Videobooks, who have made it possible for everyone to learn in the Squiggly Careers Videobook Club, because they've given you all free access to their videobooks for two months.  So, don't worry if you haven't watched it yet, you've got until the end of February to get access to the videobooks.

Sarah Ellis: Next week, we'll be talking about burnout and stress, which I promise will be more fun than it sounds.  So, join us for that, but that's everything for today.  Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.