Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:02: Quick-fire questions…

00:02:23: …1: your year in a word

00:05:02: … 2: most memorable day

00:09:09: … 3: mistake moments

00:15:46: … 4: an improved skill

00:20:48: … 5: appreciations

00:24:36: Reflective questions…

00:25:01: … 1: positive impact

00:28:30: … 2: learning sources

00:35:14: … 3: this time next year

00:37:50: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work and share ideas, tools and actions to help you, and it always helps us, to navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and clarity.

Helen Tupper: And today is a special episode because it is our Year in Review episode, which is mainly for our most frequent listeners.  If this is the first episode you are listening to, I'm not sure it's going to be the most useful, but it's insightful.

Sarah Ellis: I think the questions are going to be useful.

Helen Tupper: That's true.  We're going to ask each other a series of questions, some quick-fire questions to reflect on the year, and then some slightly deeper ones to get some insight from what we've done and what we might do differently next year.  So, the questions are useful, our answers might be irrelevant.  But if you are a long-time listener, you might find it interesting to hear a little bit about our journey in running our business, Amazing If, and working together as friends and business partners, and all the things that go with that.  Are you ready?

Sarah Ellis: Ready.

Helen Tupper: Okay, so we've got five quick-fire questions.  I feel like I'm a bit more in control today, because I've got them written down.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, she has the iPad.

Helen Tupper: So, we've got five quick-fire questions and then we've got three slightly more thoughtful reflections.  So, maybe I'll ask you yours and I'll do mine, so we'll do back and forth?

Sarah Ellis: Yes, yeah, let's do it.

Helen Tupper: All right, okay.  So, the first question, quick-fire question --

Sarah Ellis: And we don't know what we're going to say, so we don't share these with each other beforehand.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, well I know what I'm going to say, but I don't know what you're going to say!

Sarah Ellis: No!

Helen Tupper: I have done some preparation!

Sarah Ellis: We know half of it.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, because these questions I think, actually, just a side note, if you are going to do these questions, I think putting people on the spot with them, I think you want to give people these questions in advance of a conversation, just so they can think about it a bit.

Sarah Ellis: And so you don't have recency bias, because you do need to reflect.  You're reflecting on your whole year, you're not reflecting on what happened in the last two or three weeks, and it's so easy to get distracted by that.

Helen Tupper: And we will get on to the questions, but I was going through, I did a LinkedIn post, I do sort of memorable moments from the year, where I go through my phone, 9,000 photos from --

Sarah Ellis: Oh my God!

Helen Tupper: I know, I looked at like my phone, I was like, "2024, it's like 9,000 photos, that's a lot to scroll through!"  And then I tried to pick one photo from each quarter that was a real memorable moment for me.  And that was actually quite a good prep for today, because it just reminded me of certain things that had happened that I'm not sure were top of mind when I was answering these questions first time around.  You ready?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: Okay, so your year in a word?

Sarah Ellis: Gritty.

Helen Tupper: Oh!

Sarah Ellis: What is your year in a word?

Helen Tupper: Grit!  Yay!

Sarah Ellis: It turns out we spent quite a lot of time together!

Helen Tupper: Okay go on then, why was it gritty?  You went 'gritty', I went 'grit'.

Sarah Ellis: Yes, I think gritty, because it wasn't like the whole year needed lots of grit.  But I thought there were particular moments in every quarter of the year where together, actually, we had to be very gritty to get through them, either because it was a challenge that we'd not anticipated; we were trying to finish something, and we're both more starters than we are finishers, so it wasn't necessarily always something had gone wrong; or that we were just finding something hard and it's difficult, which I think that's a good thing.  It challenges you, but often then that's where you need to be at your grittiest to make progress. 

So, when I think about when we were gritty, the actual examples, the situations and scenarios, are quite varied, but it was sort of the same skill that I felt like we had to keep drawing on to find our way through those moments.  And I always feel really proud of them as well.  So, I don't think grit is a bad thing.  I don't look at all those moments and think, "Oh, that was because something was wrong", necessarily.  Sometimes it was, but it's kind of the, what do you need to do in those moments?  You need to be gritty.  Why do you say grit?  The same reasons, or different?

Helen Tupper: Well, before I had grit, I had the word, 'push', and I thought you wouldn't like it!

Sarah Ellis: Push?  How do you describe your word of the year?  Push!  What were you pushing?  Me?!  Push Sarah, do some more work!

Helen Tupper: Well, I think at first I was like, at times I felt we were pushing against each other a little bit when we were trying to create things.  We were trying to push things.  I felt like actually, it would have been easier not to do some of the stuff that we did, but we were like, "No, push on".  And then I was like, "Push is just a rubbish … I mean, the word, 'push'!"  So, I went with 'grit'.

Sarah Ellis: That was quite bleak!

Helen Tupper: I know, that's what I thought.  So I was like, "I can't have push", but I did have push and then I scratched it out.

Sarah Ellis: So basically, grit was your nice aversion?

Helen Tupper: Yes, and then, you know why grit?  Because I was going back to, the definition of grit from Angela Duckworth is, "Passion and perseverance for long-term meaningful goals".  And I was like, well, that's why we pushed, right?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: Because we are passionate about what we're trying to achieve.  And we recognise that what we're working on now is more than what's happening in this year.  It's the longer-term things.  So I was like, "No, it is grit", but at times it felt, 'push'!

Sarah Ellis: Or, 'pushy'!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, but then I got into, "Was I being pushy?" and I just scrapped it.  But I've talked about it now anyway, so.

Sarah Ellis: Well, at least we're consistent.

Helen Tupper: Yes, but let's see.

Sarah Ellis: Let's see.

Helen Tupper: Let's see how consistent we are.

Sarah Ellis: Could be a bit boring if we're the same every time, so let's hope we're not.

Helen Tupper: I know, gosh, can you imagine?  Okay, what was your most memorable day of the year?

Sarah Ellis: I did struggle with this, to really pick out ...

Helen Tupper: Have all the brilliant days suddenly blurred into just …

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, yeah, definitely that.  I did struggle to pick out one day where I was like, "Oh, it was definitely that day".  I think when we do events, that always really sticks in my mind, because I think a lot of work goes into events.  And then it's a very much kind of a moment in time where you get to, you know, we've done some live podcasts this year, we've done some work with our learning partners when they've all been in a room learning together.  And I think the reason those moments always stick out is because of the energy that's created, and energy is one of our values at our company.  And I think it's a moment where you feel all that collective energy, which I really like. 

And I think it gives you a boost to continue doing what you're doing, because you're like, "Oh, what we're doing is making a difference", and you feel that and you get to connect with people.  So, events.  I just went, all of the events we do, I feel energy and I feel like it gives me energy. One other memorable moment I did have though was we were working on our book together, and I will always remember the moment where we changed our minds --

Helen Tupper: Oh, yeah.

Sarah Ellis: -- on how we were going to structure the book.  So, we had gone, I think it's fair to say, quite far down one --

Helen Tupper: I think we'd probably written 30,000 words or more by that point.

Sarah Ellis: Yes.

Helen Tupper: Which is half a book.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, don't, let's not get specific because it's really depressing.  But I really remember the moment where we'd circle around a few times of like, "Oh, there could be a different way of doing this".  I really remember standing up in that room, walking over to the flipchart and saying to you, "If we did do this differently, let's just put on a flipchart, let's get it out of our systems, what would it look like?  And we wrote it.  And I was standing up, you were sitting down, which is usually how we brainstorm.  I'm meandering around and you're sort of sitting back and looking at it, and then we both looked at it and we were like, "That's better".  And that moment of realisation of --

Helen Tupper: "Oh, no!"

Sarah Ellis: -- what we had to let go of to get to something better.  We were like, "This will be better because we do this", and it felt almost simultaneously tough, and the right thing to do.  I am really proud of us in that moment, because I don't think that's an easy thing to accept and to move on from, and I think we did do that.  And we know now, because we've had enough people read it, that it was the right thing to do.  But I think it's a brave thing to do.  So, it's not like that day was particular -- we didn't know that was going to happen that day, we just thought we were iterating on what we'd already done.  But we made a massive decision that's actually going to impact loads of the work that we do.  I will always remember walking over to that flipchart.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I remember it, I remember it very well and being like, "Oh, that's it".

Sarah Ellis: What was yours?

Helen Tupper: Mine was an event but it was the event that you weren't at.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, thanks!  Great.

Helen Tupper: It was amazing.

Sarah Ellis: You say I'm mean!

Helen Tupper: No.

Sarah Ellis: "That event that you didn't come to".

Helen Tupper: No, it's because it was like a real moment for me.  So, we launched this year, Gremlins, which is a book with Pound Project, and we had a live podcast event where we had various people on the stage, like Daisy Buchanan for example, all talking about confidence, and this was due to be a moment --

Sarah Ellis: To celebrate, yeah.

Helen Tupper: -- to celebrate.  Book writing is hard and it takes a while and it was supposed to be, like, a moment.

Sarah Ellis: I love that book.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and I'm really proud of the book and really enjoyed the process, and I think Sarah often leads things with books, because you're just very good at sticking with them, so it's a real 'you' thing as well.  And then you couldn't be there because you were poorly, and I remember being on that stage and thinking, "Oh, I don't really want to do this without you".  There was a real moment of me -- it was a really good event and it was a really nice moment, and the conversations were really good.  And there was a lot of support.  

So, some of my friends knew how I felt and they were in the audience, and they'd messaged me beforehand and they were like, "It'll be okay, it'll be okay", so it was really kind.  But equally, I was stood on the stage thinking, "I don't really want to do this without you". So, it was a real memorable moment because, not that I'd never thought I did.  It wasn't like, "Up until this point, I thought I want to --"

Sarah Ellis: "I've got my secret business plan"!

Helen Tupper: Yeah!  But it was just, it doesn't really mean a lot, it doesn't mean as much.  We always talk about, our most memorable moments are so much better when we're in them together.  And that was a moment that you just weren't part of and it just felt wrong because of it.  So, our third question is about mistake moments.  I might need your help with this one, because I'm pretty sure I've had quite a lot of mistake moments across the year.

Sarah Ellis: Well, we know we have because we share them.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I know.  And I did search for them and I was like, "Oh, but what's been..."  I feel like my biggest mistake moment is one that I could fix.  Before the end of the year, I think I can fix this one.  So, my mistake moment is, Sarah and I, all the work that we do with companies, when we're presenting, we live draw all of our sessions.  We don't present with slides, we live draw everything, and we've used the same app for the last ten years to do that.  And my app's got a bit glitchy and I think I need to experiment with some other tech, and I feel like my mistake moment is I haven't done that. 

I have not made time to proactively find a better option.  So, I feel like I am just, something is not as good as it could be, and I'm just sat with it, and it stresses me out every week.  It stresses me out because I think, "Oh, it's going to go wrong, it's going to go wrong".  So, my mistake moment is, there's something that I could be fixing but I'm just sitting with it not being as good.  That's what I got to.  Is that a mistake moment?

Sarah Ellis: No.

Helen Tupper: Okay.  Give me one.

Sarah Ellis: But I think the reason I don't think…  What you're describing though is almost a pre-emptive mistake moment, because you're going, "I know that app might break, or it feels a bit glitchy".

Helen Tupper: Well, it does break, so I repeatedly have the same mistake.  My other option --

Sarah Ellis: So, I guess that's sort of a prompt maybe.  Because when we talk about mistake moments, it does tend to be, you can really pinpoint, "I made a mistake.  I was late [or] I got some information wrong [or] I used the wrong data point".  Whereas I think you're talking about being frustrated about, you can see how something can be better and you've just not done anything about it.

Helen Tupper: But that mistake -- I think my other option, another mistake, and this is a bit of recency bias because it literally happened this morning, was yesterday, I was doing something with someone on our team and I wrote a whole document for them and they said, "Oh, Helen, I've already written that document and sent it to you".

Sarah Ellis: Oh, no!

Helen Tupper: And that is not the first time that that has happened.  So, I think I'm noticing I'm making a few repeat mistakes.  My tech has gone down a few times and I haven't fixed it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's interesting.

Helen Tupper: I have done the work before, I've done what the team have done without checking with them first.  So, I think my mistake moment is I've got some repeated flags of being a bit, I don't know, a bit inefficient.  I don't know.  That was my reflection when I was thinking about them all.

Sarah Ellis: I was researching mistakes a little bit for the new book that we were writing.  And the more you read about mistakes, the more you realise it is unsurprising to repeat mistakes, because our brains like patterns and they like familiarity.  And so actually, you're more likely to repeat the same mistake than you are to learn from a mistake.  We always think, well, you make a mistake, but it's okay because you'll learn from it. 

You're more likely to not learn, which is why we do mistake moments where across the company, every time you make a mistake, someone goes into Teams and actually, to all of the company, we share, "Here's the mistake moment I had but most importantly, here's what I learned", in an attempt to break that pattern.  Because what you might say there is, "Okay, that second mistake where I do work that's been done before, that comes from taking initiative and probably acting fast".

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: "And so actually, maybe what it is, is before I do this, I need to have almost like a press-pause moment".

Helen Tupper: I feel like it's check first, act first.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, check first.

Helen Tupper: But I just act fast!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and it's just that tiny check that would perhaps prevent that.  And I think if you don't turn a mistake moment into an action that you can imagine taking, then nothing…  Like, I definitely exactly the same.  I'm like, "Well, I've not taken an action".  If I've not done anything different, how can I expect a different outcome?  Because I find that with my mistake moments, it is often, even if they're not identical, you can sometimes spot a theme.  What's yours then?

Sarah Ellis: Well, I looked back over all the ones from this year in Teams, because I can go back and literally read them all.  Mine are all small, but ones that felt, I was almost surprised that I made them.  So, if you just said to me, you are going to make this mistake, I'd be like, "No, I won't make that mistake".  So it's things like, we turned up to an event this year and I'd not got a bit of technology with me that we always need, always.  So, you're like, "Well, but Sarah, you know that".  And interestingly, I didn't remember that tech.

 I'd just moved house.  And then I looked at another example and I was like, I didn't have something else with me, I'd forgotten something, and something else was going on in another part of my life.  And so, what I've started to spot is when you've got loads of capacity, obviously you're less likely to make a mistake, you remember what you need to remember.  But then I'm like, but there's always other stuff going on.  You know, there's always something, right?  There's something at your kids' school or there's something with your family.  And this year, and I find it very surprising, I've got really into checklists.  I read the checklist manifesto!

Helen Tupper: It's so unlike you!

Sarah Ellis: I know it is, but it's because it works.  And so, for things that are repeatable tasks, have a checklist, because essentially you are making something more foolproof.  And a lot of it comes from like, you know surgery, where doctors will have checklists. 

And actually, even though they might have done the same surgery loads of times, they still found people still make mistakes.  Even like you might forget to, I don't know, wash your hands or something.  So, I felt better because I was like, okay, maybe I don't feel quite so bad about myself that I made these mistakes.  But actually, there is an easy fix that you can put in place.  And we've just started to use them across the team, and I do open them.  I'm like, "Oh, I'm just going to go through the checklist.  Have I got this bit of tech?  This?  That?"

Helen Tupper: I'm not checklisted up.  Where do you think a checklist would help me in my life?

Sarah Ellis: Going to an event, running a workshop, doing a podcast recording so you don't forget your mic, you know, all of those sorts of things.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I mean I feel like they're not my issues.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, but if it's not your mistakes, if you're like, "Well, I don't have those mistakes", you perhaps don't need the checklists, you need other things.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: I clearly do because I'm like, well, I can see the patterns and I can then see, I'm like again, "Well, I've got to do something different".  And I don't think I'm naturally, like I said, obviously I forget them because I can sort of see it written down.  That's why I like writing down mistake moments, because it makes them data rather than just feeling bad.

Helen Tupper: You know what, I feel like you might have lost your wallet less this year.  Is that a fair point?

Sarah Ellis: I don't ever lose my wallet.

Helen Tupper: You used to lose your cards all the time, do you remember?

Sarah Ellis: No.

Helen Tupper: You did?

Sarah Ellis: No.

Helen Tupper: You would always be like, "I can't find my cards, I can't find my..."

Sarah Ellis: So, right, so my argument is, right, there's a difference between not being able to find something --

Helen Tupper: Oh, good lord, no!

Sarah Ellis: So, I don't ever lose them permanently.

Helen Tupper: Okay, sure.  I feel like you have misplaced your cards less this year

. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that might be true.

Helen Tupper: Fourth question, what is a skill that you've got better at over the last 12 months?

Sarah Ellis: I found this the easiest of the questions.

Helen Tupper: Okay.

Sarah Ellis: I think it is receiving feedback specifically from you, because when we've gone through the process of writing a book, and because of the way that we've written our latest book, I've received more feedback, I think, than I've ever received before.  And some of that is hard-to-hear feedback, or it's feedback where you are maybe starting again some of the time. 

There's quite a lot of sunk costs in the writing process generally.  And sometimes, you have to take a deep breath, or you feel certain emotions, and you sort of have to ride out those emotions and then come together and be very pragmatic and practical, and also be really open.  So, occasionally, you write something and you think, you're like, "I think this is good [or] I think this works really well", and you don't, right?  And so, you can argue about it in an unhelpful way, or you can constructively try and be really open, try and listen.  You definitely have to put any ego I think you have to one side, albeit writing is quite, in some ways, it is quite an ego-driven thing, because you're writing those words. I felt really proud at times that I felt like I at least tried, you'll be able to tell me how it felt from the other side, I tried to be really accepting and open and constructive.  And at times, that was that was really difficult, but I was also mindful of, I tried to deal with that in my own way, so then it didn't sort of get in the way of us making progress, because I think if I just sort of…  The challenge sometimes with you and I working together is not only are we writing together, we are running a business together, we are very good friends together, and sometimes I'd be like, "I want to talk to a friend", and I was like, "but you're my friend", and I was like, "I need new friends"!

Helen Tupper: That's feedback!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, yeah.  But you know when you're like, our worlds sometimes are so blurred?

Helen Tupper: Yes, yes.

Sarah Ellis: You and I had a few times this year where you're like, right, everything merges and moulds together in such a way.  And I think during that process, I was just very focused on being like, how do we keep moving this book forward in a way that's really pragmatic, and just keep our readers in mind.  But it wasn't always easy.  And I do think I've got better at that now, partly through practice, right?  If you'd said, "I just want to get better at it", in a vacuum, you probably won't.  But I think there was a bit of a forcing function, and because it wasn't really easy.  It wasn't like we just wrote everything and went, "Oh, yeah, it's all brilliant".  It was quite a different process to writing Gremlins, where really we were talking about things that we already knew worked and there was less kind of newness that we needed to create there.  So, yeah, that was my skill.

Helen Tupper: Well, I think that I don't really love giving difficult feedback.  It's not something I really enjoy doing.  And I think I gave what probably felt like difficult feedback that didn't feel difficult.  So, I can't say, "Oh, I think you're so much better at this than you were 12 months ago".  I can say I think we've had a lot of it this year, and it definitely has felt hard at times.  But I have never found it hard to talk to you.  So, you've always been receptive and open, and I can see the breath.  I can see it, like literally like a, "Okay, let's go again".  I can literally see it, but there's always a, "Let's go again".  There's not a, "Right, I'm coming to battle you on this point".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, yeah.

Helen Tupper: Mine is, I don't know if you'll agree with this, but I think I've got better at this.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, go on.

Helen Tupper: The skill of saying no.  I think I'm saying no more.  I think I've got my own little no-cabulary, which we've talked about before, I think I have a way of doing it.  But I definitely think I'm saying no to more things, to certain opportunities that we've had.  I'm like, "I don't think that's the right thing for us right now".  I feel like I'm getting a bit better at saying no and not feeling bad about it, which is the second part of saying no, I think.  You've got to say no and actually own your no.  Reflections?

Sarah Ellis: I suppose I don't see it, but then I don't think I would.

Helen Tupper: Okay.

Sarah Ellis: You know, I'm not seeing those noes most of the time, I would imagine, because you're dealing with it directly, so it's not that visible for me.  I guess other people in our team might see it more.  You've talked to me about one thing that you're going to say no to next year.

Helen Tupper: Already said no.

Sarah Ellis: Which surprised me and I was like, "Oh, Helen's going to say no to that!"

Helen Tupper: But also, we had quite a big opportunity that we said no to recently.

Sarah Ellis: Yes.

Helen Tupper: And I think I was kind of holding the no on that one a little bit.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think probably for me as well, it's hard to be really balanced around that, because sometimes, I suppose, the conversations we have are where you've not said no and then you're really feeling it.  So, I think I feel those moments where you've got really crunchy times, and I'm like, "Wow", it's because you've said yes to so much.  I think I see the spikiness that creates for you and you're like, "I'm going from one thing to the next, to the next, and I've got an evening thing, and I've got another evening thing".  I think, just because of our relationship, that is more visible to me than the noes, which doesn't mean I don't believe you.  I just don't think I see it.

Helen Tupper: You should see the noes in my inbox.  There's many, many like, "Not right now", type thing.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's good.

Helen Tupper: The last one is, what do we appreciate about each other?  Over the year, what have you appreciated?  What have you appreciated about me this year?

Sarah Ellis: I always feel like you want me to be happy.

Helen Tupper: I do!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I know!

Helen Tupper: I do!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  And so, I think you care about what does it take and what does it look like for Sarah to enjoy the work that she does, do the work that she's best at, and then you will always think, how can I make that happen?  How can I be helpful?  How can I give you the space to do that?  Even if it's not the same for you, which actually often isn't the same for both of us, we definitely have some things in common, but I always feel that support from you to be like, well, if I then said something different to what you already know about me, I just always know that your first response is definitely like, "Right, okay, well what do we need to do, and how can we think about this differently?"  If I said to you, "I want to work --" this is not true, "I want to work one day a week", I don't think you'd be like, "Oh, no", you'd be like, "Right, okay, well let's talk about that".

Helen Tupper: I think I'd do the breath that you do with feedback.  I'd be like, "Okay, one day a week, let's find a way".

Sarah Ellis: But you would find a way.

Helen Tupper: I would find a way.

Sarah Ellis: That's a very Helen phrase, you're like, "Let's find a way".  I do think it's quite unusual to have someone else who you're working with who is so invested in your version of success.  And that feels really nice, because that feels like we can have very different conversations.  And you're actually very non-judgmental.  Because I know sometimes things that would matter to me wouldn't matter to you, and also vice versa.  I feel like you're never going, "I don't get why that's important, Sarah, why that would matter".  I just ask, "How can I help or how can I support?" and I think that is uniquely you.  And it's not just in the last year, but I do always feel it.  There you go.

Helen Tupper: That's very nice, thank you.

Sarah Ellis: You look like you might want to hug me.

Helen Tupper: I feel warm and fuzzy. Sarah Ellis: I'm like, "Don't hug me!"

Helen Tupper: I'm not going to hug her, she's got a cold.  I'm not going near her.  Mine, what I appreciate about you is, I've put 'challenger'.

Sarah Ellis: Quite different to what I've just said!

Helen Tupper: No, but I feel like you are always challenging us to be better, like the book, like how could it be better?  You know something can be better, you won't let it go, you'd be like, you would challenge us to improve the quality of our learning, where I'll be like, "Okay, I think it's good enough".  You're like, "No", you will always challenge us, or how can we be more relevant?  Or how can we improve what we're doing?  Or how can we do this better for the team?  And even when we're busy, like this year, we've had so much on, we've had the business and we've had the book, there's been so much on, and you don't let that go.  You always keep that bar of like, "Well, how could we be better?  How could we make that sentence better?" 

Like, it goes from strategy to sentences!  The challenge, you apply it to so much of what you do, and I think it's just very different to me.  And I'm very grateful for it, because I think we are all better, what we produce is better, the team is better.  I am better because you have this sort of relentless, "But we could do that better, we can make that different.  We shouldn't just accept it because that's what we've done".  And I think I really appreciate it because it's not what I bring.  And so, I really value that you've always got that.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think it's just, you know these things, sometimes probably the things you appreciate the most are often, you know, like part of your DNA.  Like, I don't feel like I choose that.  I just feel like that is the way that my brain works, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.  Just like I think your brain works in a way where you're like, you wouldn't question me, you would find a way with me.  I think that's just your -- you know, sometimes our defaults are also what makes us really good.  And it is nice for people to say what they appreciate about you.  It's a good team exercise.

Helen Tupper: Team exercise.  Team exercise, it's nice.  So, let's move into three reflective questions, maybe not so quick, maybe a bit more thought's required.

Sarah Ellis: We weren't that quick, were we?

Helen Tupper: We weren't that quick!

Sarah Ellis: We were luxuriating in the end-of-year podcast, aren't we? Helen Tupper: I think, but isn't that nice?

Sarah Ellis: It is nice.

Helen Tupper: Isn't it nice to luxuriate on the year, though?  You know when you go through stuff so fast all the time, actually it's quite nice to just spend like 15-20 minutes luxuriating in what you spent a year of your life doing.  Okay so let's luxuriate some more.  When do you think you have had the most positive impact this year?  I've gone with two, which I've got a long list!

Sarah Ellis: Almost the question should be like, "Haven't I?"

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I've got a long list!  So, I've got two.  Maybe you can decide for me.  Maybe that's part of it, like, you should decide when I've had the most positive impact.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, okay.

Helen Tupper: So, I've put two down.  I think there are certain client programmes that I have run, and I'm not sure if I can name them, but there are a couple of big client programmes that I've run that I feel like I've made a really big difference to the company and the people in the companies, almost like at a cultural level, and I feel really proud of that.  That's had a big impact for those individuals, and actually for us in terms of our relationships with those clients.  I'm proud of that.  And then I think we've had a couple of campaigns, like things like the Sprint in summer.  I feel like one of the differences that I -- I'm quite good at a campaign.  You're really good at a long-term commitment, like a book.  I'm quite good at a short-term project.  And I feel like I have a positive impact on -- we had a million minutes of learning that people did in our sprint this year because of what we created.  And I go, "Well, that's a million minutes of learning that wouldn't have happened if we hadn't created the sprint".  So, those are mine.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, I don't think I can choose.  I feel like they were both brilliant.

Helen Tupper: "One of those was rubbish, Helen, you can't bag that one!"

Sarah Ellis: No, I could definitely not choose.  And actually, mine was different. 

Mine was our Squiggle and Stay programme, which the positive impact is, a small slice belongs to me, but lots of the positive impacts of that programme belongs to you and the partners that we worked with, because really they were the ones doing the experiments.  So, the idea with that project is that people signed up to new ways to support people to kind of move around their organisations.  And I think the positive impacts that I specifically had, this is almost like a good practice for an interview question, isn't it, like, "How did you contribute to that big project?" was almost at the start with the ideas.  So, we created an ideas bank for the companies.  I think it had 16 different ideas in, and it was like, "Oh, you could try career safaris, you could try move mentoring". The reason I think we have a positive impact in that moment is we are good at both coming up with ideas, and that's a strength that I've got, but also describing them in a way that's memorable, kind of labelling the learning, giving them a name, giving them a bit of an identity.  And I think we were sort of a catalyst for those organisations to then say, well, you change them or you adapt them or iterate, make sure they work in your context".  But I feel like if we weren't that catalyst, those organisations and all their employees who then benefited from those experiments, that wouldn't have happened.  A bit like your, "The million minutes wouldn't have happened if we hadn't done that", I kind of go, loads of people wouldn't have had the opportunity to squiggle and stay if we kind of hadn't created that programme. 

And like I say, I feel like we were the catalyst, and then loads of the hard work was done by the organisations we worked with, like Specsavers and Welsh Water and Danske Bank.  And I remember thinking like, "This is amazing, what they're all going away and doing". Then, I'm really proud that we've then published all the results of that and all the data openly so that anyone can access it, and that feels very consistent with why we were an Amazing If and what we are trying to do around career development, like making it available to everybody.  And so, I think I'm taking a small slice of credit for something that actually I feel just really proud of everyone who was involved in that.

Helen Tupper: Well, if that was an interview I'd give you the job.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you.

Helen Tupper: You've got the job to Squiggly Career co-founder, I'll let you have that!

Sarah Ellis: Thank you!

Helen Tupper: I'm laughing at this one, because you don't know my answer to this one.

Sarah Ellis: Go on.

Helen Tupper: Who have you been learning from this year?  Who's going first?

Sarah Ellis: Go on then, you go, because you've got me intrigued now.

Helen Tupper: I know.  I haven't told you this.  You're going to be like, "What is this?"  Okay, so I have been part of -- what?  What?

Sarah Ellis: It's going to be some sort of weird YouTube thing.

Helen Tupper: No, it's not.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, okay.

Helen Tupper: It's not.  You're going to think this is really weird.  Flip Flippen, who I've not told you about, okay.  So, I am part of a network called EY Winning Women, and I go to various events with this group and meet lots of different people.  And I recently went away with them to a conference, called the Strategic Growth Forum, where you got to pick some people to meet.  And one of the people that I wanted to meet was Flip Flippen.

Sarah Ellis: I mean, what a name.

Helen Tupper: I know, exactly.  But he also runs a learning organisation over in the US, particularly focused on education.  And so, oh my God, I haven't told you this.  So, I went to meet Flip Flippen.  I don't know how old Flip is.  I think Flip might be about 80.

Sarah Ellis: Right, okay.

Helen Tupper: 70, 80.

Sarah Ellis: Lots of wisdom then.

Helen Tupper: Lots of wisdom.  And I sat down with Flip and his CEO.  And Flip is a psychotherapist by training, and he sort of brings.  You sit -- I sat at a table, it was a round table, and you sit there and he like looks into your soul.  I started crying!

Sarah Ellis: How have you not told me this?

Helen Tupper: Because I've not caught up with you about the Strategic Growth Forum.

Sarah Ellis: Okay, yeah sure.

Helen Tupper: So, basically it was a really interesting conversation.

Sarah Ellis: I mean this is like the sound bath thing all over again, you coming out of something crying, and me going, "What is happening?"

Helen Tupper: Me hugging the therapist!  That was the most amazing experience I've ever had in my life!  When he hit the bong.

Sarah Ellis: It did nothing for me, for sure.

Helen Tupper: No, he didn't have a bong.  But we did sit at a table and he was asking some questions.  I was asking Flip about like how's he scaled his business and how does he use technology, and all this kind of stuff.  And then, he was just asking me these really deep questions about, like, what motivates you to do what you do?

Sarah Ellis: And you started crying?

Helen Tupper: Well, because he kept going further and further.  It was like he was looking into my soul.  He was like, "But why, Helen?  What is the meaning for you in your work?  What drives you to make a difference to people's development?  I was like, "I don't know, I just want to help people, Flip"!

Sarah Ellis: Oh my God!

Helen Tupper: Anyway, I learned quite a lot from him because he was just very sincere and very warm, and I think sometimes you think someone has to tell you something to learn from them, but actually I think I just learned that sometimes, just asking questions is enough.  You know, like, when you're being mentored, I think you're like, "Oh, the value in this conversation is the wisdom I'm going to get from Sarah".  I'm not sure Flip imparted any wisdom on me, but what he did do was ask me some questions that made me think a bit more deeply about what I'm doing and why I do it, where my motivation comes from, and connected, and because he was literally looking at me.  We were in this massive conference, so many people, busy, noisy, but he just looked at me and asked me the questions and waited for my answer.  And I think it's such a, I don't know, I think I was a bit overwhelmed; I was a bit tired!  I think there were other reasons I cried, and it wasn't like an outpouring, it was just a…  And then he went back, he said to me, "There was a bit of emotion there, Helen, can we go back to that?" and I was like, "Can we not?  Can we move?"

Sarah Ellis: I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for that part!  But maybe there's something there about asking and attention.  So, he was both asking you really good questions, and then really paying attention.  Because if he noticed a bit of emotion, but also being very present.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, just when your eyes get a little bit glassy.  I was like, "I was trying to forget that"!  So, yeah, anyway that was a conversation.

Sarah Ellis: Well, there you go, there's new news for me.

Helen Tupper: New news, news you didn't know.  Who have you learned from this year?

Sarah Ellis: I actually thought about this slightly differently, because I think in lots of ways, I've spent quite a lot of time by myself this year, by necessity.  It sounds really bleak, doesn't it?  But when you are writing a book and you don't do it very often, so this is lots of words, books are real team efforts, but there is part of the book writing process that is a very solo endeavour.  It can be quite lonely at times, but I did feel like one of the things that I really enjoy about writing a book is the process of learning from lots of people that actually you haven't met. 

So, I think my ratio of non-fiction book reading when I'm writing a book goes up tenfold.  If I look at how many books I've now got versus how many books I had at the start of writing my latest book, I've probably got 50 new books.  And sometimes that's because I wanted to read a chapter, sometimes it could be as small as a paragraph, sometimes it was the whole book. So, I feel like I've spent time with lots of new people.  And at least some of those people, I think I'd like to get in touch with and see if they'd like to come on the podcast, for example, for expert interviews.  So I was like, well, I've definitely learned from those people, whether that's about pausing or perfectionism or being a beginner or whether that's giving.  And sometimes, those books as well kind of take you outside of your world.  They're not about careers or they're not about learning, but they have written something connected or that somehow is interesting to what we're writing about.  So, I was like, they're probably the people I've learned the most from.

But I've also learned, I don't know whether I've learned from, but I've really needed two of my friends this year, Rachel and Rob, who I will give a shoutout to.  I feel like they have been by my side through that writing process in a way that you can't do, because you're in the writing process and you need to critique it and we need to kind of edit it together.  I would just leave them voice notes kind of saying hello and sort of describing where I was, and they always knew what chapter I was working on.  And I'd be in the same place doing very similar walks every day, and I'd be like, "Oh, I'm on the Being a Beginner chapter and I've got to the end of that [or] I've come up with a good idea here [or] I've got a bit stuck".  And Rachel's got her little baby, Janie, and so I'm very grateful she's on maternity leave!

Helen Tupper: Because you can leave her these voice notes and she'll listen!

Sarah Ellis: I said to her, I'm going to need some sort of transition plan.  When she goes back to work, I'm going to need some sort of like, how do I get weaned off her giving me all this?  So you know, I think, sometimes your very good friends, and they're two of my best friends, they know what you need when you need it, and they've really shown up for me and been incredibly supportive.  And I sort of can't imagine having done it without the two of them.  And Rob's also, he's the only person actually, other than our editor, who's read the whole book.  He gave us some really helpful insights as we were going.  And you know when you just need just those -- I don't need loads of people, but I do need a couple of people who I feel are on my side, are with me, and they are willing you to succeed.  And they would probably hear sometimes if I got a bit stuck, if I was doubting myself and they'd try and like, I don't know, at least encourage me or remind me, "You've done it before, you can do it again".  And so, yeah, I suppose it did make me reflect a little bit on the continued importance of having the right people, because you never quite know when you'll need them. If you had said to me that was going to be as important as it has been this year, I don't think I would have guessed that, but I don't think I would have got through the year with that grit without them.

Helen Tupper: Very nice.  Okay, last question. Sarah Ellis: Okay.

Helen Tupper: Are you ready?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: What do you want to be true in 12 months' time that is not true today?

Sarah Ellis: I would like us to have spent more time creating together in a room by this time next year.

Helen Tupper: Oh, I would like that too.  I didn't write it, but I would like that too.

Sarah Ellis: Shame, shame.  I mean, don't feel bad about it, but you know!

Helen Tupper: I want that too; I've really missed that this year.  I kind of think that the foundation of everything was time like that together, and we just haven't had that time.

Sarah Ellis: I think all of our best stuff, when I think about everything we've done that's really good, that makes a difference to Squiggly, increases our impact, and even when we have done the book stuff together this year, all of our big breakthroughs on the book were together, and typically in a room together, me pacing in circles, you sitting down watching me pace.

Helen Tupper: Walking down the beach.

Sarah Ellis: Walking down a beach together.  I mean we ditched some of that stuff, but you've got to get to that breakthrough to get to the next breakthrough.  And even if I think back, whether it's TED Talks or podcasts, or those kinds of things, it's always in those moments where our brains are sort of fizzing and merging and different in all sorts of good ways, and that's why I'm like, we're better because we are a team.  And yeah, for lots of reasons this year, I think we have to take accountability for that.  We didn't prioritise it and we did some of the things that I think we're both really proud of.  But I wouldn't want to be sitting here this this time next year and not having spent that time together.

Helen Tupper: Agreed.

Sarah Ellis: I'm not forcing you into it now.

Helen Tupper: No, I know.

Sarah Ellis: "I don't want to spend more time together!"

Helen Tupper: No, I really want to, no.  Mine is different.  So, by this time next year, I would like there to be 10,000 lobsters ready to learn.  I want that because our new book, Learn Like a Lobster, is coming out in just over a year.  So, by this time next year, I want there to be like a level of excitement.  I want there to be 10,000 people who are like, "I am in, I am ready to learn like a lobster, I'm ready to advocate for this new way of approaching".  I want there to be excitement, obviously, because I do.

Sarah Ellis: And we can't talk about the book loads, but I feel like if we're going to say the title, we should explain that lobsters never stop growing.  And there's lots to love about the lobster.  They never stop growing, they fuel their own growth, they're very self-sufficient, they sort of create their own growth, and then they sort of grow through these quite hard moments.  And that gives you a bit of a hint.  It's a bit of a teaser for what's to come.  It will make sense, the fact that we are talking about lobsters and learning, we promise.

Helen Tupper: With 10,000 people, we'll be bought into it by this time next year, and they'll be making it make sense!

Sarah Ellis: Whether they like it or not, it's the way they can describe it!

Helen Tupper: Exactly!  Lobsters are go, lobsters are growing and lobsters are learning, that's the plan.

Sarah Ellis: So, if you would like to do a year in review, I think you can do it by yourself, I think you can do it with a friend, you can do it in a team, you could do it with your manager.  Have a look at the PodSheet, because we'll put the questions that we've talked through today on there, so you can refer back to those.  We have also got a few other resources.  We've got articles, we've got frameworks that you can look at.  So, please make the most of those.  They're all free and ready and waiting for you.

Helen Tupper: Thank you so much for listening to us and to our journey over the last 12 months.  It has been a brilliant year of learning with the Squiggly Career community.  So, thank you for being part of that.  And we'll be back with you next year.

Sarah Ellis: So, here's to some squiggling in 2025.