Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:46: Squiggly Careers Videobook Club

00:02:14: Why giving is good for you

00:03:28: Giving watch-outs

00:05:21: Assessment tests

00:10:44: Different ways of giving

00:15:00: Three giving profiles…

00:16:38: … 1: people-pleasing

00:22:27: … 2: the ad hoc helper

00:26:08: … 3: tackling the taking tipping points

00:31:29: Jeremy Connell-Waite

00:32:56: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work and share some ideas and actions to help you and us navigate our Squiggly Careers with a bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And this week's topic is, "How to Give Without Getting it Wrong.  So, we want to dive into the world of generosity and how to use that as a bit of a superpower in your Squiggly Careers, to build better relationships and create new opportunities, but how to do it in a way that means you don't feel drained by giving to lots of people, or actually there's quite a lot about generosity burnout which is not what we want to tip into.  So, we're going to talk about some different ways you can give without getting it wrong.  But before we get into it, we want to talk about a new thing that we are launching to support you with your learning in 2025, and that is the, drumroll, Sarah, can you do a drumroll?  I don't know if that'll translate.  Our podcast producers are probably like, "No, that's just a really loud, horrible noise, Helen"; but anyway, imagine a drumroll.

Sarah Ellis: I tried really hard with that drumroll!

Helen Tupper: Thanks, thanks!  Anyway, imagine a drumroll, everybody.  But we are launching the Squiggly Careers Video Book Club in January.  We are going to have lots of information on this on LinkedIn, so if you want a bit more detail, head over to the @amazingif page on LinkedIn.  But effectively, it is a one-month learning experience.  So, for anyone who signed up to the Squiggly Sprint, this might be up your street.  And we have got free access to everybody to LIT Videobooks Library, and we have got a reading or a watchlist of four books we are going to be focusing on in January.  And each week, we are going to talk about that book.  So for example, week one is Katie Milgram's book on How to Change.  So, if you're thinking of a career change of some sort over the next 12 months, that could be really useful for you.  And we're going to talk about the video book, we're going to interview the author, we've got some questions and some resources to help you to reflect and apply the insights.  And you can also join some live conversations with me and Sarah on LinkedIn so that you can share your own perspective on that particular topic as well. So, there's lots in store.  Easiest thing for you to do is sign up to the Squiggly Careers Videobook club to learn more.  As I said, head to LinkedIn, and also we will put the link on the show notes of this podcast so you can get the information you need.

Sarah Ellis: So, let's start with why giving is good for you.  And there is so much evidence that that is true.  There was a big bit of research actually about volunteering, which I guess is almost the purest form of giving.  And it was 70,000 people across the UK, so it was a really significant study.  And people who volunteer do have significantly better both actually physical and mental health.  It is really good for us to give.  And when we do it at work, we feel better about the work that we do.  I think you feel more connected to it and more engaged.  And there was some research that showed people who frequently help other people are ten times more likely to be engaged in their jobs, it's better in the teams that we work in.  So, I suppose if everybody has this giving mindset, it's somewhere you want to be, because you feel like you're going to get support but also you feel like you're being useful, and I think we all want to feel valued and valuable.  And just the act of being generous, it triggers all the brain's reward centers, like all the good stuff in your brain basically comes to life when you give.  So, that's things like dopamine, all those good endorphins.  There's so many reasons why this is important to do, but there are some watch-outs as well.

Helen Tupper: So, one of the watch-outs is what I mentioned right at the start about when you give too much, it can actually lead to burnout.  So, this links back to what we said at the start, which is that when you give too much, it can actually lead to burnout because all of that energy and insight and time you're spending with other people, without boundaries, it can almost feel a bit unlimited and you're not necessarily looking after yourself in the process.  And so, it can lead to burnout, but it can also affect your own performance because you're not really thinking about your priorities if you're always putting other people first.  And there's some research we saw in a Harvard Business View article, there's actually some really good stuff on Harvard Business View about generosity and generosity burnout, which we'll link to in the PodSheet. 

But it showed that people who frequently assist colleagues can actually experience a 25% drop in their productivity.  So whilst, as Sarah said, it is helpful to help other people for those reasons that we talked about, if you do it too much or in a too unboundaried way, it can actually be harmful to you. Actually, the other thing that I found this research quite interesting is that givers are vulnerable to takers.  So, if you are someone who gives easily, and we'll talk about the role of a people-pleaser in a little bit, you're a generous giver, maybe you trust other people too readily, you can be taken advantage of by other people, particularly takers who want your time and they want to take your energy and use it for what they want to do, and that can be particularly damaging. 

And also, the bigger watch-out here is the research shows that women are actually more likely to be givers and men are more likely to be takers.  Now it's not, 'every man is a taker and every woman is a giver', it's not that simple.  But I think it is a bit of a watch-out for you to be aware of, in terms of where might giving go a bit wrong for you. So, during our research for this episode, we discovered two different tests which you can use to assess the quantity of your giving, so do you give a lot versus take?  That's the first bit.  And then also, the quality of your giving, so are you giving in a good way?  And we will put these tests in the PodSheet so that you can self-assess where you're starting from, and it also might help you to spot some of the potential watchouts that we've referred to.  So, Sarah, you go first because you did, like, what percentage giver are you?

Sarah Ellis: And actually, I found the questions that you go through, each question is like a mini case study.  So it'd be like, "Oh, in this scenario, what do you think someone's motivation is, or what do you think you would do?"  So, the first question, just to give you an example, is someone's got some money, and it's going to be divided up between you and a stranger.  And you don't know the stranger, and you've never met the stranger, you've got no relationship with the stranger. 

How does that money get divided up?  Some of these I felt were quite moral questions, and I was like, "Oh, no!  How bad a person am I?" I was feeling, by the time I got to the end.  And actually, a real range of questions, so it was really interesting.  So, mine came out as 73% giver, 27% matcher, 0% taker, which I think is a good thing. The pure taking basically does mean you literally are just taking from other people.  Matching is more you'll sometimes think, "Well, that person helped me, so I want to help them back", and that definitely was my answer to a couple of the questions.  So, one of them was things like, "If your boss gave you a recommendation, would you really look for ways to help that person, or would you look for ways to help other people?"  And I think I do sometimes match.  I will think, "Oh, that's been really useful for me, so I would like to reciprocate", and that's more matching.  

And I remember from reading Give and Take actually, relatively recently, that apparently in our personal lives, we are much more likely to naturally be givers but when we go into a professional context, we sort of think matching is the right behavior.  So, we all do apparently lots more matching professionally.  And so, I definitely still do some of that and it's not that that's bad; I think the point they're just trying to make is, can you be more intentional about your giving?  Can you really think about how you give, how you can be really useful?  So, actually, I quite enjoyed going through all the little dilemmas as I was going through.  I was like, "Oh, would I just give that money away, or what do I think about that?"  So, it's worth doing, it takes like five minutes.

Helen Tupper: I was just wondering about 0% take.  I mean, I should probably do your survey.  I'm not sure I would be 0% take.  I think maybe sometimes --

Sarah Ellis: You might be on those questions though.  But the questions were quite self-interested.  So, even answering them, it was like, "Oh, there's been a natural disaster and your company are going to go and help do some rebuilding.  Are you doing it because you think politically it'd look good?"  I'm like, who's answering that?  "Or are you doing it because some of your colleagues have got friends and family there?  Or are you doing it just because you think, 'Oh, I want to find a way to help'?"  So, my answer for that one was, "If I'd got colleagues with a connection to that area, I would want to go and be supportive".  And so, I don't know if that means you'd be a match or a taker with that answer.  But yeah, if you go through, the taker ones are, I would say, quite obviously mean, a bit mean!  And I was like, "Even I'm not that mean".  You say I'm mean, but I'm like, "Maybe not as mean as them!"

Helen Tupper: Mine are mean, mine are mean.  Okay, so that's about what percentage are you giving generally, so the sort of quantity of your giving versus taking mix.  The one that I took, which was about the quality of your giving, so if you imagine two opposite ends of this.  So, you can be a selfless giver, so that is no boundaries, helping everybody, people-pleasing tendencies; or, you can be a sustainable giver, so that is when you're very boundaried about how you give, so you're giving to particular people, or you are giving with a very defined amount of time or effort that you're willing to give.  And in the middle, there is inconsistent giving, where basically you're a bit of both.  I remember one of the questions was about a teacher.  It said, I think, "Imagine you're a teacher and somebody in your class needs some extra support with a test, and they ask if somebody outside of the class can come and join the extra learning session that you're putting on".  And you have to decide whether you basically say, "No, that's not possible", or you let that person into the session; or, whether you schedule a completely unique session for that person who isn't currently in your class and who needs extra help.  And it's those sorts of questions that you get asked.  Again, a range of situations they probe around. I came out at, I don't know how I feel about this, but I came out at 53% inconsistent. 

So, I think I do a bit.  My next one was sustainable giver.  So, I was more sustainable than I was selfless, as in I was more boundaried than I was boundaryless, in terms of how I give, but generally I'm a bit inconsistent, which makes me look at it and just think, "Oh, I probably need to reflect a little bit more on who I give to and how I give today, just to make sure I do it in the best way for everybody".  If I'm inconsistent, there's probably some times where I could just be a bit more specific about how I'm supporting people.

Sarah Ellis: And one of the areas I think from Adam Grant's work that stood out, I think, to both Helen and I, which I think helps you to start thinking about how you're going to give, is he describes the different ways of giving.  And I think the idea here is not that you have to do all of these, but that actually to know what your go-to is, in terms of how you give.  And then, I think maybe think about, does that work for you?  So, he describes, "Experts who share knowledge, coaches who teach skills, mentors who give advice and guidance, connectors make introductions, extra-milers who show up early, stay late, and volunteer for extra work, and helpers who provide hands-on task support and emotional support".  So, Helen, if you had to prioritise those and you would do it as a forcing function, your top one, which one do you reckon you would be, just your top one.

Helen Tupper: Top one?  I was like, "Top two!"

Sarah Ellis: I know you wouldn't want to do that, that's why I was like, "I'm going to make her do top one".

Helen Tupper: I'd probably say the 'expert' one.  I think I spend most of my time helping people by sharing knowledge.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I had 'coach', because I think a lot of how I give or how I'm helpful is, I will teach things that we would do in our day job, but then I'll do it in a more giving way.  It's probably how I'm most comfortable giving.  It's sort of my, you know when I try and think about how I can be helpful, I'll think, "Oh, could I do a career development session for that team?  Could I teach some of what we do for learning mindset or feedback?  Could I do that for that person?  Could I do it for that team?" 

Actually, one of my friends recently, who has been doing an incredible job of being an early reader for our new book, was asking me about something, and my first response was, "Oh, I can do a session for you".  And he was like, "Well, no, because you usually charge for those".  And I was like, "Basically, I'll do anything for you".  But I was like, it's always my default, I think probably because we have a lot of practice, and I probably also think that's the thing that I'm best at, which may or may not be true. So, I think part of this is also thinking, "Well, maybe you're missing out on giving in other ways". 

Maybe I could do more mentoring.  I might have some advice and guidance.  Who knows, if I thought about it long enough, I might be able to come up with some stuff.  Or maybe I could do more connections and maybe also things like connections that might feel more realistic, because delivering a workshop is obviously time-consuming and maybe that's not always realistic, when you talk about boundaries and things.  So actually, I suppose knowing that there are a range of ways to give, and also I don't think you have to pigeonhole yourself.  I don't think you have to be like, "Oh, that's how I always give".  You can mix it up a bit.  So, it did make me think a bit about that. Also, it made me think a bit about people in our team who I could see would be some of the other ones, like the extra-milers and the helpers.  I was like, "Oh, each of them probably has a bit of a watch-out".  And with those two in particular, I wondered whether, this is my own hypothesis, if you're in the extra-miler or the other helper, that to me felt closer to people pleasing, maybe more risk of burnout, because you're like, "Well, if I'm showing up early, staying late and volunteering for extra work, I'm like, okay, that doesn't feel sustainable for that long".  Maybe you're like, "Okay, great, I can be flexible and responsive and people will really appreciate that", for two or three days.  But if that's all the time every week, that to me felt like something to look out for, I suppose.

Helen Tupper: Visually, it makes you want to draw one of those spider charts with six legs, and I want to have each one of those six ways of giving on there and give it a score out of nought to five.  So, I can almost see the shape of my giving, where I move to and where I don't at the moment.  And then, I want to overlay that with the team and just say that as a team -- because maybe you and I give in a similar way, and the team give in a similar way, and we've got some giving gaps. 

Like, well, "Oh, as a team, no one's doing any mentoring", for example, or no one's doing any connecting.  That's a real opportunity for us to kind of fill a bit of a giving gap that we've got in the team.  Feel like you could have a really useful conversation about this as a team.  I might draw that out in PodPlus, so that anyone who comes on to PodPlus, you can see how we're visualising it and maybe replicate that conversation in your team. So, what we've done for part two of today's podcast is we chatted through three different profiles that we think will feel familiar for lots of people listening, in terms of where you might be today, and then what you might do to then be more intentional about your giving, so that you get all of the upsides but then you reduce the risk of some of the downsides. 

So, the three profiles that we came up with, the first one is the classic people-pleaser, I think loads of people recognise that, so finding it hard to say no.  These are probably your extra-milers, your helpers. Profile two was the ad hoc helper.  So, this might be people who, as Helen said with her score, are quite inconsistent in their giving.  So, you do some, but perhaps it's quite tactical, you wait to see what comes your way.  And then the third profile is what we're describing as the taking tipping point, which is where you might have just tipped into taking, maybe without even realising it.  And this doesn't mean that you're self-interested or selfish, it's perhaps you've just not noticed it, and then what you might want to do differently.  And we both recognise there have been moments in our career where we're like, "Oh actually, yeah", we've wanted to redefine that relationship, because I still think taking doesn't sound very nice, does it?  But not every relationship always has to be equal.  There are moments, of course, where you're like, "I do feel like I've gained a lot more from some individual sometimes than I've given".  But I think when you notice that, when you see and when you spot that, you can also think about, "Well, how can I still be useful?"  So, we'll talk about that as well.

Helen Tupper: So, let's start with the people-pleasing tendency then.  There's a nice quote here from Adam Grant, which I think illustrates why we want to do something different, because people-pleasing can feel nice.  And sometimes, we don't realise how problematic it can be in the moment that we're doing it.  But what he says is that, "Effective givers recognise that every 'no' frees you up to say 'yes' when it matters most".  So, it's not just about saying no and feeling bad, it actually means that you can do more of the things that allow you to increase your impact, the way you make a bigger difference, and I think that is a helpful reframe.  If you are somebody that likes to help, feeling like you're saying no is going to be hard, but feeling like you're able to say yes to more of the things that matters is likely to just make this an easier reframe for you. So, we think there are two things for you to do here.  If you're a people-pleaser, and we want you to give in the right way, two things to do. 

First of all, know what your priorities are, because people-pleasers tend to put others first all of the time, and then that might actually create conflict with the things that you need to do.  So, making sure you know what your priorities are, and you keep those priorities visible, means that when you help people, you have more of a choice to make.  Because every time you say yes to somebody else, you might be saying no to something that's on your priority list, and we just want you to be able to pause to see your priorities and to make a conscious choice about the help that you give to other people.  So, that's the first thing, know your priorities, keep them visible.

The second thing, which I have found really useful as somebody that sometimes can just help without thinking about it, is put a hurdle in the way of your help.  Now, this sounds really mean and it's not mean, but I think sometimes if you are a people-pleaser, people will come to you and say, "Oh, can you help with this?  Can you help with that?" and you might go, "Yeah, of course I can, of course I can come to your meeting, of course I can write that for you, of course I can do that for you", you know, you just say yes.  And sometimes, that person might not have actually tried to help themselves.  So, putting a hurdle in the way just means they need to put a bit of effort in before you give them yours.  And that hurdle could look like, I'll give you a personal example, lots of people email me and ask for mentoring in some form, and I used to say, "Yeah, no problem".  But what I now say is, "Of course, I'm really happy to help.  In order to make sure that I can help, can you just answer these questions for me so that I can review and understand what it is you need and whether I'm the right person?"  And those questions might be, what are the biggest challenges you're facing at the moment; what have you already done to respond to these; what are some unanswered questions you need some help with?  And I send that back to somebody so that it creates a little bit of a hurdle in between them and me helping them, because the people that respond with answers are the people I really want to help, because they've thought about these things, they've clearly already made some effort to help themselves and they're specific about why they're coming to me.  That is the kind of person that I want to help. I'll be honest, 50% of the people I send that to never reply.  I'm like, "Well, if you're not putting the effort in to help yourself, then why am I giving my effort to help you?"  And that might sound a bit harsh, but I find that quite a useful filter that means that actually when they do get in touch with me, I can be much, much better about the help that I do give them.  But if they never get in touch with me, I don't feel guilty about it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I actually had a couple of people email me last week asking for help, and the reason that I will give that help is exactly as you've described.  Their questions are super-specific.  And that's how I know they've really thought through what support would be useful for them.  Whereas if people just go, "Oh, I'd just love to learn more about your experience", I think that's too generic.  Or, sometimes we get lots of people requesting they want to come on the podcast, but they very clearly have not listened to it.  And again I just think, "Okay, well, you can't be that bothered", or they'll get the name of it slightly wrong, or they'll mix our names up.  That's one that makes me laugh the most.  And I do think that sticking to your boundaries and saying no, I think you have to feel confident about the upside of that, you have to know that that's how I'm going to be able to be even more helpful.  Because I think for a people-pleaser, which I don't think either Helen or I really fall into this category, to be honest, I don't think either of us are nice enough, I don't think, to be real people-pleasers, but I know people who are.

 And I think we have people in our team who are much more like this.  And I think there's no point just saying, "Stick to your boundaries", because actually these people's natural inclination is just to be so helpful. So, I think my argument that I'm always trying to make if I'm talking to people where they find this difficult is going, "Oh, but imagine how much more useful you can be.  Imagine that the quality of the help that you can give will improve", because I think that ends up feeling more motivating, and that the worst-case scenario of saying yes and sticking to your boundaries is never as bad as I think people imagine.  So, I remember people in our team sometimes like telling Helen and I, they tried saying no to us for the first time, and then realised it was absolutely fine.  But it almost shocks them, because maybe if you're a natural people-pleaser, you get nervous; even in what I hope is quite a high-trust team with hopefully quite encouraging founders who talk about this stuff, it still felt hard.  But then people have said to us, "Oh, but then actually once I did it once, got a bit easier the next time, got a bit easier the next time".  So, I think you've got to realise it's not as bad as you imagined, then be able to practice it even more.

Helen Tupper: And if you are someone that does struggle to say no, then episode 106 of the Squiggly Careers podcast is about, "How to say no (and when to say yes)", so it might be a helpful listen after today's.

Sarah Ellis: So, the second profile is the ad hoc helper.  So, you are helpful but it's probably inconsistent and you're perhaps more passive than active and intentional about the kind of help and how you give.  So, this is where we think it's useful to be strategic about your strengths.  So, when you give your strengths it kind of works for you and it works for other people.  Other people benefit from something you're naturally talented at, and you benefit because you're making something that you enjoy and where you probably get energy and find your flow even stronger.  You stretch and make your strengths stronger when you give them. 

And this probably has been the most helpful thing for me when I've thought about giving, and actually the knock-on effect of things like creating your career community and networking and making connections.  Because I think in my career, when I realised that the thing that I was good at, the thing I got to give, was practical career development, then actually I could really start to look for loads of ways that I could be helpful and useful to individuals, to small groups, to big groups, to people in different industries, to different types of networks.  And so, I think uncovering that strength for myself then just means that you can spot so many more opportunities to use it. 

It kind of creates that useful confirmation bias of like, "Oh, okay, practical career development is sort of my thing.  Okay, well maybe it's about a course, maybe it's about a podcast, maybe it's about finding a best friend who's also very into it", and then you could just grow and grow and grow. Helen and I were describing how we think doing things like helpful how-tos and lunch-and-learns are really useful here.  So, if you're going to do this as a team, I think this would be a really nice exercise to do together, where you ask everybody to pick a strength they've got, so something they really enjoy, and to create a helpful how-to on that strength for the team in whatever way they want to.  And this is an idea we actually talk about in our new book.  Let's hope it makes the edit.  It's in there at the moment, but we've not edited it yet, so it may or may not make the cut.  But I really like it as an idea, because you could imagine you might just write it in one page, because you might like writing as a way to describe your strength; you could create a video; you could use AI and use an avatar; you could make a game.  It doesn't matter how you do it, but it's about going, "Well, I want to give the thing that I'm good at for the benefit of other people". 

And I love the idea of that sort of strength-sharing happening across a group. Great thing to do on a team day, great thing to do over a series of team meetings.  So, if you were like, "Right, we've got five team meetings between now and Christmas.  Each week, we're going to take it in turns and we're all going to do a ten-minute helpful how-to on a strength.  So, not going to overthink it, it can be one slide".  But if it was Helen, for example, I'd be saying, "Oh, Helen, talk to the team about how you're so good at prototyping ideas.  What does that look like?"  If I was doing it, I might talk about, how do I write a chapter of our new book from scratch and how do I take a blank piece of paper and turn nothing into something?"  And that would be really good for me because I actually don't know, so I'd have to really think about how I do do that.  So, it'd be really interesting and I'd love to hear that from the rest of our team.

Helen Tupper: Well, I guess that's where giving is at its best, right, where what you give to somebody else helps you too.  And so, I think in that scenario, you know you're saying, "Well actually, I have written a chapter from scratch, but I've never really actually thought about the process that I've gone through, so it would be useful to share that with somebody else", but actually I would get to quite a lot of clarity to how I do it as well.  And I think that kind of becomes useful for both of you, which links to our third profile, which is all about tackling the taking tipping points, that moment when you think, "Hmm, I have perhaps taken a bit too much from this particular individual and it is time to give something back".  And we were trying to think about specific situations where you might feel this. So, let's imagine you have relatively recently started in a new company, and often we tend to be in take mode then because we're taking a lot of insight from people, we're taking a lot of support to get started, maybe we're taking a lot of encouragement because our confidence gremlins tend to grow when things feel a bit new and scary. 

So, you might feel like you've actually been in take mode for a little while in a new position.  Or it can be with a relationship where there's a lot of support, so for example, a mentor.  So, you're in take mode because they're giving you all of their insights and their experience.  But as Sarah mentioned, there is a tipping point where you really want to think about, "Well, how could I give back?" because that means that you become less dependent on a particular person, you're not defined by being a taker, so this sort of person who's dependent on everybody else for their knowledge, and that moment that you decide to give back is the moment that you start to, I think, create a slightly different relationship and start to take control of your profile a little bit. So, perhaps an easy way to get started is with a bit of a small give. 

So, I had this recently from somebody that I had been mentoring for quite a long time.  So, arguably, they had been in take mode for a while, but I was comfortable with that.  But what I did see is they started to become a giver to me, because they started to proactively make introductions for me.  And that's quite an easy way to give.  You can make an introduction; maybe you could share an article or an event; maybe you could send someone a book or something that you think, "Well actually, I know, based on our conversations, this is something you've been interested in.  I thought this might be something that's beneficial for you.  These are small, not high-investment, high-involvement things from you, but they do start to sort of tip it back towards, "I am now giving you.  I've recognised that I'm going to change my relationship with you and I'm going to give you something back".  So, that's the first thing, start with a small give. The second thing, which I think Sarah's got a really good example here, is to give outside of the person.  So, don't think about, "Well, how do I give back directly to you?"  But also think about, how can you give back in a way that is supportive of the other things that that person is trying to do?  Sarah, I don't know if you want to talk through your example here?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think often, you know when you do have those moments where you are being supported by someone where you think, "Oh, it's really hard to figure out how I can be helpful to them, because they're already brilliant, they already know loads", and they probably know more people than you know.  And like I'm a bit like, right, well it doesn't always have to be directly to them.  So, I would often think about, "Well, who else do they care about?"  So, they'll care about their team, they'll care about their company, the networks that they are part of, the industry that they are in.  And I would then often say to that person, say they've been mentoring me, "Oh, we're running some career development sessions on strengths or confidence".  Let's say it was someone who I knew was involved in women's networks.  Often confidence sessions are really popular, a bit unfortunately, but it is true.  And so I might say, "Well, look, if anyone in that network would appreciate some mentoring, I'm really happy to offer some time.  Or if you'd like me to come and run a workshop, then I'm really happy to do that too".

So almost proactively, they've not asked me for those things, they've not said, "Oh, please can I have them?"  But I will just be trying to think sort of creatively, I guess, around the person.  Like, there's a brilliant lady who I'm working with at the moment where again, I don't think I can help her very much, but I also can help the communities that she supports through her company.  So, she helps people change career through things like code and data science.  And so I was like, "Okay, perhaps not her and her company, but what about her alumni from that programme?  I could help them".  And she was like, "Oh, yeah, that's amazing".  And so, I think that has actually worked really well for me, because those people then really appreciate it because you're probably giving something that they can't give.  You're sort of finding how you can be uniquely useful, but just not offering it to them directly, and sort of hoping that they care about the people around them, which inevitably they always do.

Helen Tupper: And then the third way is to let somebody know the impact of their help.  And I really like this one, because several people have done this to me, and I've always thought, "Oh, this is the most meaningful way that you could give back to me".  So, let's say again, you've mentored somebody or maybe you've helped someone solve a problem or launch a project that's really important to them.  When that person then comes back to you after a week or a month or whatever the appropriate length of time is and said, "Oh, Sarah, I just wanted to say thank you.  Because of the help that you gave me, this is what I've been able to do, and I wouldn't have been able to do that without you", that moment of when someone shows gratitude for your giving is so rewarding and don't undervalue that. 

If you want to tackle this tipping point of where you've been maybe in take mode for too long, just recognising what someone has given to you and saying thank you is a very kind and generous thing to do. So, Sarah and I were talking before we started about who do we think is a brilliant giver.  They get giving right, they give in a specific, meaningful, and quite boundaried way.  And we both came up with the same person.  So, we want to give them a bit of a shout-out, which is Jeremy Connell-Waite.  Definitely worth a follow on LinkedIn.  What Jeremy does brilliantly is he gives his insights into how to be a brilliant storyteller.  And it isn't just, "Here are five ways to do it".  He shares data, he shares visuals, he's created a whole website.  And I think that that is a very sustainable way to give what he is great at, because rather than doing endless amounts of one-to-one mentoring, which he would never be able to sustain because so many people would want his help, he has taken all of his knowledge and he's created a huge helpful how-to so that other people can be brilliant storytellers at work.  So, big shout-out to Jeremy.

Sarah Ellis: I've got the website if you want me to.

Helen Tupper: Please do.

Sarah Ellis: So, it's betterstories.org and he's structured all the website around nine principles of better stories.  It's really visual.  So, for people who love visual learning, I'm just on it now, so lots of infographics and drawings, loads of really good resources and loads of examples.  It's all really well structured, and actually it's a really nice site to spend time with.  So, yeah, I'd really encourage you.  It would be 15 minutes very well spent.

Helen Tupper: So, we'll summarise everything we've talked about today in the PodSheet.  So, if you think you want to reflect on how you give and get better at it, that would be a useful download for you.  Don't forget as well the Videobook Club, so head to our Amazing If LinkedIn page.  You'll see in our most recent post all the information that you need to sign up for that.  And other than that, we will leave it there for today.

Sarah Ellis: Thanks so much for listening everyone, back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye.