Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:18: Common career rejections
00:06:19: How you react to rejection

00:08:58: Rejection model…
00:09:38: … 1: breathing space
00:14:32: … 2: a new view
00:18:58: … 3: the right level of reflection
00:22:49: … 4: a full-stop response
00:24:55: Some extra rejection tips
00:30:01: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and share some ideas and actions that we hope are going to help all of us navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control. 

Helen Tupper: And today, we're going to talk about a topic that I think can feel quite difficult, if it's something you're experiencing right now, but as ever, we hope we've got some practical actions that can help you through it.  So the topic is, How to Recover From Rejection.  That is what's coming. 

Sarah Ellis: So, tricky topic today, How to Recover From Rejection.  Let's see if we can bring some optimism to what is a hard moment, I think, in our Squiggly Careers.  You know, we talk about moments that matter.  I feel like these are often moments that matter.  They're not ones that you would hope for, they're sort of knotty moments rather than kind of upbeat moments.  But I think if we can approach them in the right way, there is often a lot to learn in those moments, and they can help us to be even better.  But it's a tricky one, isn't it, it's a tricky one to get right.  And when I was thinking about some common career rejections, I think the one that always springs to mind for all of us, if you're reflecting back on your Squiggly Career, you always think about the jobs you didn't get.  Because you put so much effort and energy into applying for roles, whether it's a sideways move, whether it's in a different industry, whether you've gone for a promotion, it's a very clear rejection, isn't it?  It's a very binary one.  It's like, "I wanted to do this, and you said no to me".  That always feels hard to take, and it's something I'm sure we've all experienced. 

Then the more I started thinking about it, the more rejections I could come up with.  I was like, "Oh, actually, there's quite a lot of smaller rejections that we probably experience more frequently".  So, that could be things like, you know if you suggest an idea, you're like, "Oh, I've got a really good idea to do this thing", and then someone's like, "Actually, I don't think it's right".  You're like, "Oh, okay, well, that's somebody rejecting an idea".  You might be rejected by someone who you're maybe trying to connect with and maybe if you said to someone like, "Oh, do you fancy catching up?" and then someone actually clearly isn't maybe that keen, it feels quite personal, doesn't it?  I think rejection always feels quite personal.  Any recent rejections, Helen, you'd like to share? 

Helen Tupper: Any recent rejections?  I guess because Sarah and I do this job now, we've not gone for a promotion recently, or anything like that. 

Sarah Ellis: I might apply for one soon, I might apply to you for a promotion. 

Helen Tupper: Would you like one?  Prepare to be rejected!

Sarah Ellis: I'll be rejected, just for the sake of the podcast!

Helen Tupper: Just for the sake of it!  But yeah, I think you and I probably reject each other's ideas.  That's probably our most common one, because Sarah and I have loads of ideas about stuff we want to do, and our rejection is probably over WhatsApp.  I'll be like, "I think we should do this", and Sarah will be like, "I don't know about that".  Or Sarah will be like, "I think we should talk about this", and I'll be like, "No, alternative idea".  So, I think we reject each other.  But I was also thinking about, I don't know if it's an unconscious rejection, but when you feel like you've been rejected from other people.  So, last week I was at a big networking event, loads of people, and there were certain times where I would go up to a conversation, because you're wandering around.  It is a nightmare for introverts, this thing that I was at.  You have to inject yourself into a lot of groups and conversations, and sometimes people are really open to that.  They literally physically move their bodies, which is what I would always do, physically move my body to bring someone in.  And sometimes, people just basically flat out ignore you. 

Sarah Ellis: Oh, really?

Helen Tupper: They're sort of rejecting, yeah.  There was one person who did it repeatedly.  It feels like a rejection, like I'm not welcome in this conversation.  And so, I think rejection is so much broader than not getting a job, but I think the impact on how you feel is that it can erode your confidence, you can lead to a little bit of self-doubt, and I think you can sometimes just feel a little bit defeated.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think I probably experience rejection much more frequently now than I did in corporate life, because I think in corporate life, maybe you're just not putting ideas out there quite as often.  We're also often asking people for things, you know, we're asking people to come on the podcast, recently we've been asking people for their best piece of learning advice for our new book, I've been sending lots of those emails.  We've been developing some proposals for new ideas that I was sending to Helen last week.  And so, I think I've got used to those sort of smaller rejections.  They still feel hard to take.  I definitely feel quite keenly every single rejection.  I don't think the frequency has taken away the feeling, but I think I have got better at understanding and knowing what's happening and then figuring out what to do next, which is what we're going to try and talk about today. 

Helen Tupper: It's so emotive, isn't it, and the amount of effort.  I think about awards that Sarah and I have put ourselves forward for. 

Sarah Ellis: That we never win!

Helen Tupper: That we never, ever win!  It's either like, "This is so unjust, we think we should win this!" or, "We put a lot of effort into that!" as if effort alone should determine whether you get it or not.  But I think, yeah, the emotions related to the thing that you want to do can also, I think, affect how you then feel about the rejection. 

Sarah Ellis: We've got a little rejection model that we've come up with.  Before we dive into that, it is worth, I think, just knowing naturally how you respond to all different types of rejection in your Squiggly Career, because they are part of all of our careers, they're not going anywhere.  Probably as everything gets squigglier, you probably will see an increase, I guess, in the amount of things where you're like, "Okay, that didn't work out as I had hoped or expected".  Because Helen and I were saying, we often respond in a different way.  Almost if you go, at your worst -- I do think an at-your-worst reflection is quite useful -- so, at your worst when you've been rejected, what can happen?  What's the risk for you? 

For me, it would be real rumination.  I wouldn't let it go, overanalyse it, I'll keep thinking about it.  For someone who has a very bad memory most of the time, I somehow seem to be able to remember all of these things.  The whole negativity bias, I guess, does a good job of helping me here.  And so I can keep spiralling, circling something, they really stick with me.  I think because I naturally have quite a stubborn, determined personality.  And you know sometimes where your personality can work against you?  I can get quite blamey, but then I can really, really think about it, and it takes up a lot of my head space, and I can just keep going and keep going, I think, and that can be endless.  At its worst, that is the risk that rejection, I think, poses to me.  What about you? 

Helen Tupper: My risk is that it maybe doesn't take up enough of my headspace.  I don't think about it.  I just write some people off and I go, "Well, fine, fine". 

Sarah Ellis: "To hell with you!"

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  I just write someone off completely and then I'll be like, "Watch me do it a different way".  And so, I don't reflect, which probably means that I don't do it better next time, I just do it again and again and again.  I think I probably should spend a bit more time thinking about the way that I might have put myself forward for something that I didn't get, or the way that I asked for something that then didn't go the way I wanted it to.  I think it's a defensive reaction.  I'm like, "Right, I'll move on.  I'm not going to let you take up any more of my headspace.  I'm not going to think about this situation any more", and I think I miss learning in that, and I also think I lose empathy as well. 

Sarah Ellis: I suppose it's also just listening to you, like it's a way of, you know, I think everyone tries to protect themselves.  So, you're protecting yourself in that way, by sort of moving forward probably too fast, maybe forgetting to learn.  And I protect myself by just really thinking about it, and then going, "If I maybe keep analysing this, maybe I'll get to an answer".  I think I keep searching for answers.  So, neither of those things, we don't want to do either of those things.  What we want to do, we're going to talk you through this model that Helen and I were going through and going, "If we now do the opposite", so at our best, how do you respond to rejection?  What do we think that looks like from our experiences, but also from the experiences that we've seen from other people we've worked with? 

So, we're going to talk through four areas and I'll summarise them now, and then we'll go through each in a bit more detail.  One is breathing space, two is new view, three is the right level of reflection, and four is a full-stop response.  So, we'll go through each of those four and then we've got two top tips at the end that didn't really fit in the model, but we thought were important points.  So, we'll start with breathing space. 

I was reading something really interesting actually about emotions, that if you ignore or avoid them, they actually linger for longer.  And this is where there's a psychologist called Dan Siegel.  He talks about with emotions, "You have to name it to tame it".  My own experience is, I think that is really true.  And almost the more specific you are about how you're feeling and the more emotions you can get out, whether you're saying them to yourself, whether you're writing them down, if it was Helen and I, you're talking to each other, I think the more it helps you to move forward.  And at this point, lower any expectations you have on yourself to learn.  In this breathing-space moment, you are allowed to complain, to feel sorry for yourself, to feel awful, because that is the reality.  So, if we don't say those things, you know, because sometimes you're trying to be optimistic and I bet with, especially with our listeners, people will try to look for the learning, but give yourself a break and a breathing space first. 

This is basically like, dwell on it for a bit.  And I think depending on the rejection, sometimes dwelling on it is for 24 hours, sometimes it might be for longer.  It depends, I think, on that level of rejection.  But what can be helpful is to just almost notice how long you are spending in the breathing space, because there obviously is the tipping point where you're like, well, if you are still there -- let's say it's a small rejection.  Let's say it's an email I have from somebody going, "No, I'm not going to contribute to your new book", and I am outraged, which is actually how I initially do feel, outraged and disappointed and I'm like, "But why not?  This is such a good opportunity to share".  So, I've got all that stuff going through my head, but that is a small rejection.  So, I need to be over that in 24 hours.  That's the longest I think for that kind of rejection. 

If I've applied for a job and got through to the last interview stage and then you don't get it, you can give yourself a little bit longer.  The energy that you've invested and the effort you've invested is way, way more than an email that you've sent.  But I think noticing, how long have I given myself this space for before I then move on to the new view?  And are you someone who needs to give yourself more space, aka Helen?  So, like she might be like, "Well, I've moved on and it's one hour".  And I'm like, "Okay, well maybe take a day!"  Or you're me, and you might be three days and you probably could have done with one.  And so, I think just knowing what that period of time should look like for you. 

Helen Tupper: I also think who you share that rejection with is quite important.  So, in that sort of breathing space time, you want to share, I think, with someone that has more of a supportive tendency than a solving tendency.  So, this is, I think, the difference between Sarah and me.  So, if something hasn't gone the way I wanted it to, like I've asked someone to be part of a campaign or come to an event and they're like, "No", then if I share that with Sarah, Sarah would probably message me back on WhatsApp and be like, "Oh, it's really rubbish, that must be really annoying", and at that stage does not go, "Here are five other people that you could ask instead", she's not trying to solve that problem.  She just gives me a little bit of empathy, I just feel like I've got it off my chest, someone's in it with me and I'm like, "Oh, so annoying". 

Whereas my default response very often is to solve something.  So, if Sarah said to me, "Oh, this hasn't gone the way I wanted it to", I'd be like, "All right, don't worry, let's do this instead".  It's not what you really need.  In that breathing space window, however long that you've decided you're going to allow yourself to have it for, don't let the solvers in too quickly because it might mean that I think you feel like, "I'm not ready to move on yet, I'm not in the mindset to fix this yet, I just want to be annoyed about it for 48 hours".  So, I think just be careful who you're sharing it with.  Or, if someone is sharing something with you, if it has just recently happened, they might not be ready for a quick fix yet.  Just give them a bit of like, "Oh, rubbish, are you all right, do you want to talk about it?"  Just sit with them in it for a short amount of time before closing the door, that they might not be ready to close the door and move on to the next part of the process yet.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think if you are talking to someone who is a solver, it doesn't mean they're not the right person, but you might just need to signal that that's not what you need right now.  So, sometimes I will say to Helen, "I just need to complain about this for a moment".  And as soon as you say that, Helen's going, "Okay, she just needs a bit of space to get something off her chest".  And we obviously know each other really well.  So, I think everybody has that agility.  Just because Helen is a natural solver, it doesn't mean that she can't listen and give me some breathing space.  But equally, she might look for the signs, like the recency, "Oh, this is a new thing Sarah just needs to get out".  Or I might just say, "Oh, I just need space for a moment just to feel a bit disappointed [or] feeling a bit bad right now".  So, I think we can all do this for each other, but don't be afraid to signal that that's what you need.

Helen Tupper: So, let's imagine we've had a bit of breathing space, we're ready to move on, got it out of our system a little bit.  What can be really useful now so that you don't ruminate, like Sarah was saying, and so that you maybe start letting some of the insights in, is to get a new view on your rejection.  So, when you get rejected from something, it's very easy to get very you-centric about it, "Oh, this always happens to me.  What should I have done differently?  What's this going to mean for me?" go round and round in that spiral of you-ness.  And what we want to do to try and help you get beyond that is to get a new view on the rejection.  And there are a couple of ways in which you can get a new view. 

So, one thing you can do is ask somebody else for what they think about it.  And it's quite helpful if there's somebody else that you're asking is maybe someone who's a little bit further away from you, or maybe someone who thinks differently to you.  So, I've got a friend Mel who's a GP and might be listening, she's a regular listener to the podcast.  And I might ask Mel, I'd be like, "Oh, I've got this going on, what's your view?"  And because she's in a different world to me, she'll often see things differently.  She's also got an awful lot of empathy because of her job.  So, she just comes -- her starting place for looking at situations is just very different to mine.  She's always good to just run my thoughts past on something that's happened, and then just get a very different insight into it than I have.  And it could be someone who's in a different industry or someone who's in a different team or someone who does a different job, or maybe someone in your personal life giving you their thoughts on something that's happened in your professional life.  But looking at this from their view just helps to broaden yours out a bit and perhaps helps to stop the spiral. 

Then the other thing that you can do is, often there is a person that we associate with the rejection.  So, let's say I've shared an idea with Sarah about a new product that I want to launch.  In my head I'm like, "I've got an amazing new thing that I think we should launch to support people with their Squiggly Careers". 

Sarah Ellis: Squiggly Stash! 

Helen Tupper: Squiggly Stash, which is actually something we both want to create.  I've thought about a range of Squiggly Stash and I've spec'd it all out and Sarah goes, "Oh, do you know what?  I don't like it, I don't think we should be doing this", and I feel rejected.  It's really useful, and so that you don't spiral around the situation, if I not only think about how I feel about this, but I also think about, "Well, where is Sarah coming from?"  If I put myself in Sarah's shoes, Sarah might be thinking, "Oh, actually, we've got six other things that we're working on.  And whilst this is interesting, it's just not as impactful as some of the other things".  Or Sarah might be thinking, "Do you know what, I haven't quite got the headspace for this at the moment, I'm feeling overwhelmed by some other things that we've got to do".  And if you just think about, well, why might this person have rejected this, from their point of view and their priorities and what is important to them, it stops, I think, you just becoming really me-centric and creating your own stories about a situation.  You still have been rejected, so it doesn't take that away, that is still the reality, but getting a new view on the rejection can often give you some insights that can help you to move forward from it. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I think you can do this really quickly.  I don't think this has to be something that takes ages or that's hard to do.  Helen and I were testing this out beforehand and I was talking about somebody who hadn't given us advice for the book, and initially I felt I was a bit like, "Oh, why not?  Maybe I didn't write the email in the right way, or maybe I should have asked differently, or why didn't it work for that person?", because they're in your control, they're the things in your control, so it is natural that that's where you go.  But then as soon as I just literally in 30 seconds tried to walk in their shoes and thought, "Okay, well what's going on in their world?" straightaway, I could give three reasons why no would actually be almost the right thing for that person.  And then it actually really helps you to let it go. 

So, if you're someone like me and you hold on to things quite tightly, it helps you to be -- I suppose you're being empathetic to someone else's situation.  And like Helen said, I don't think at any point in this process, we are never trying to ignore the rejection, because actually the reality-based approach, I think, is the best one.  That has happened; what we are trying to do is go, it's almost accepting that it's happened and then going, "So, what now?" I think is our starting point here. 

The third part of the process, so you've had some breathing space, you've got a new view, which I think you can do for yourself in a couple of minutes, is then the right level of reflection.  So I think here, there is a real danger, as we described, that you reflect way too much, the over-thinkers of this world, and I'll put my hand up to that at times, and then you've got the under-thinkers of this world who just basically have moved on so fast they're like, "Oh, what was that again [or] what happened?"  And so we think asking yourself some 'one questions' will just help to almost constrain your reflection so that you get enough to go on but without getting stuck or stalling.  And I think often when you are asking coach-yourself questions, almost adding these constraints in, like time, so look at the last week, look at the last day, or something like 'one', you're like, "Well, what's the one?" it just makes you go, "Well, just answer that question", and then you move on, so you've got some insights. 

So, three 'one' questions that we thought might be helpful is, what's one thing I learned; what's one good thing about the experience; what's one action I'd take next time?  So, it's pretty fast to test this.  I was reflecting on a trustee role that I applied for this year that I wasn't successful in getting, so I was rejected from that role.  I was really disappointed, I really wanted that role and you feel like you're a good fit so I'd invested quite a lot in it.  And so, I went through those questions and I didn't do it actually at the time.  One thing that I learned is that it actually really reinforced me that I would like to do something else for a purpose or a cause that isn't Amazing If, but that is connected to Amazing If.  So, this role, I think the reason actually I was particularly disappointed is it had a people and development slant to it.  And I was like, "Oh, I can really see the overlaps with Amazing If, but then actually it would be supporting a very different group of people", and it felt very purposeful.  That particular role ticked quite a few boxes that I think are really motivating for me.  I definitely learned that those things really matter, and so I want to hold on to those things and think about other ways or other opportunities.

One good thing is I deepened a connection with a person.  So actually, that person who rejected me, I think it has deepened my connection with that person.  And he is definitely somebody I can learn from and want to stay connected to.  So, I was like, "Oh, that is one good thing".  And actually, I was thinking about this.  I was like, I've got quite a few managers and mentors who have rejected me from roles, that has deepened my connection and led to lots of other interesting things in the future.  So I was like, "Okay, actually that's not the first time that's happened".  And one action for next time, I was quite short on time when I applied for that role, and so I did it in quite a what I would call sort of cold way.  I didn't have time before to have many conversations, I didn't do probably the amount of due diligence that I would normally want to do, because I don't apply for very many of these sorts of roles.  So, I think I would have felt better about that rejection if I had put more into it.  But if you get rejected and you have given it your absolute best, you're like, "Well, I gave it my absolute best".  And I did with my actual application, but I always think there's more to an application than an application.  And so, I felt like I could have done more there, and I think I would want to do that the next time I apply for that kind of role.  There you go, there are my reflections. 

Helen Tupper: Well, I like them as well because they're relatively quick.  So for me, obviously I move on really, really quickly from things and I miss the learning.  But what wouldn't work for me would be a really drawn-out reflection process like, "Sit down for 30 minutes and do a mind map to gather your thoughts", I'm like, "No!"  I think the helpful thing in this type of reflection is the 'one' thing; it throws in quite a quick way, quite appealing to my brain. 

The last part of the process is all about how you respond to the rejection.  And what we are advocating is a full-stop response.  So, the potential problem here is that you get rejected from something, and that rejection story, you carry it with you for a long time like, "Oh, I should have done this, I wish I'd done that, I wonder what they're thinking about me", all that thing, because you haven't really closed it.  And I think any time that you get rejected by someone or for something, it feels like you've lost a little bit of control and it feels like maybe you've also lost a little bit of confidence.  And so, finding a way to create closure, as they probably say in therapy, is a good thing.  And the full-stop response is how you create closure. 

So, this is where you go back to somebody, and let's say Sarah rejected an idea, that's a small thing.  I could go back to Sarah and say, "Okay, appreciate it's not the right time right now for it.  It is something that I'd love us to discuss again in the future, so I will put it down on a one-pager and save it for the shared drive, so when we've got a strategy day we can always look at it".  And I feel like it's not completely gone away, it's not maybe completely off the table.  At the very least though, I've just put my thoughts down.  But I feel like that's a positive response.  Maybe somebody said no to coming on our podcast, so I could just take their no and be like, gosh, I could think about them and it and what I could have done differently; or, I could just go back and do a full-stop response and say, "Really appreciate you taking the time to respond.  Would love to stay connected with you because I'm a really big believer in your work.  I will reach out on LinkedIn and thank you for your time".  And then I feel like, "Well, at least they'll think of me as sort of a nice, positive person.  At least I've got one thing out of it, you know, I've got that connection with them on LinkedIn".  And if I look back at that rejection in the future, I will feel good about how I took control of that final part of the rejection. 

I think the more that you can do this, I think the more confident you feel after it and the more you don't feel like someone else has taken that control away from you. 

Sarah Ellis: So, we will recap the rejection model in a moment, but there were a couple of other thoughts that we had which I think were just really reflections from our own experiences.  I think when you get rejected, it is worth understanding whether that rejection means, "Not now", or do you need to find another way?  So, I think let's imagine you're going for a promotion and you go for your first promotion and you don't get it.  That probably means not now.  It's the first time you've gone for that promotion, hopefully you get some useful feedback, and then you might apply for another promotion in three months' time or the next time the right role comes up. 

Let's imagine now you've applied for three promotions and haven't been successful, so you've been rejected three times.  At that point, I think again, back to the point about understanding and accepting, you might want to think, "Okay, is there another way of getting what I was looking for from that promotion?"  Maybe you were looking to do projects with a bigger scale budget or working more cross-functionally.  And it might just be that for now at least, you do need to find another way.  You need to think about, okay, well, could you do a secondment?  Would you be prepared to do a different role?  Would you prepare to do a project role?  This is, I suppose, about using the rejections as data.  It's almost like, "Right, if I'm using this as data for my career development, what is this rejection telling me?" 

I was saying to Helen, when we were asking people for advice for the book, we did get a few noes and we got lots of yeses.  So, I was looking at the noes and thinking, let's imagine we got five people say no, I was like, "Right, why did those people say no?  What's the data telling me?"  And actually, what it's telling me is that when I've not met those people, when I don't know them directly, it's much easier to say no.  Whereas every person that I knew, that I'd probably seen in a room before, or had a coffee with, or had some sort of deeper connection with, every single one of those people said yes.  And so actually, it's probably not about what I said in that email or how I asked or what job that person is doing.  Those kind of rejections probably just came from people not feeling super-connected to us or the work that we do, and that's really understandable, right?  You're like, "Okay, well, that makes sense", and then also might inform what we do in the future when we think about who we ask or who we need to create connections with, so then they're more likely to say yes for next time.

Helen Tupper: And then the other, I guess, quick tip from us is that if you feel like you aren't getting rejected like, "When was my last rejection?" I mean, well done for listening to this podcast so far because you've listened for some other reason!  But if you're like, "I don't know when my last rejection was", I think that that is an insight in of itself, because if you are not getting rejected, if you can't think of a time that you've been rejected recently, then it might be that you're playing things a little bit safe.  You know, you're doing the same things on repeat with the same people and you're not putting yourself out there for new projects or new positions, or you're not asking people for things that might be different to what you're doing today.  And I do think a relatively regular bit of rejection can be helpful, because it helps you to push your potential a little bit.  It's useful for your learning, if you do the reflection that Sarah talked about.  And I also think it's quite useful for your resilience.  I think the more rejection you get, I think the less defined you are by it.  Whereas if you don't get it very often, it feels really, really hard when it happens. 

So, maybe just take that away for yourself as well, that actually having a relatively regular, and you can decide what that means, but a relatively regular bit of rejection can be helpful for a number of reasons.

Sarah Ellis: I think the ultimate objective here is you're trying to have a healthy relationship with rejection.  In your Squiggly Career, it's going to happen.  How can you get to a point where you can have a healthy-ish relationship with rejection, knowing that some of it will feel very out of your control, knowing that none of us would ever want it.  But I think if you can do some of the things that we've described today, you can learn enough, move on, and decide what you want to do next.  And I think when I've not dealt with it well, I've missed some of the things that we've talked about today, almost like I missed those actions.  I either didn't do them or maybe wasn't self-aware enough to do them.  But when I've coped with it well, I've always ticked those boxes of being like, I've gained myself a bit of breathing space, it's okay to basically feel a bit rubbish.  I've talked to someone else, I've got that new view, done some quick reflection, probably not as intentional as we've described today.  I like the 'one' just to frame it, like you say, to keep it short.  I probably still end up doing probably too much reflection, so I like that because I think that will help with the time-boxing for me. 

That full-stop response, the number four, that would be my 'even better if'.  I think I'm okay at breathing space, new view; right level of reflection, I think I could get a bit better at.  I think the full-stop response, sometimes I just either get lazy or forget or just don't do, and I think that would make the biggest difference to me.  Which one for you? 

Helen Tupper: Right level of reflection, definitely.  What a surprise!  We will put those four actions and just the prompts for how you do it in the PodSheet.  So, if you want to keep this for maybe a future rejection so that you've got a way to respond to it, or maybe if you know somebody that's just recently been rejected, then it could be quite a useful PodSheet to put their way.  All of the PodSheets are always on our website, amazingif.com.  If you go to the podcast page or you just search for a podcast topic and then you open that page, there will be a PodSheet, just a one-page downloadable summary on the podcast episode. 

Sarah Ellis: So, we hope that's been helpful.  If you're fresh out of a rejection or fresh in that moment, we hope you're okay.  It is tough, give yourself that breathing space.  But that's everything for this week.  We'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now. 

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.