Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:00:18: The Career Collective

00:02:18: Struggling to be heard

00:06:12: Ideas for action…

00:06:30: … 1: bookend meetings

00:07:50: … 2: you don't have to know all the answers

00:13:32: … 3: ask for space to speak

00:17:23: … 4: habits for getting heard

00:28:40: … 5: designing meetings that include everybody

00:34:04: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is a Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and share some ideas and some actions that we hope will help all of us to navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And before we get into this week's topic, which is all about how to get heard at work, we just wanted to do a little reminder about an event that we have coming up in December on 2 December for The Career Collective.  So this is a one-off event where we are going to bring together some other career podcasters that you might be aware of.  So we've got Isabel Berwick from the Working It podcast, we've got Jimmy from Jimmy's Jobs of the Future and we've got Bruce Daisley from Eat, Sleep, Work, Repeat. And we are all coming together for one night to discuss our different opinions about what's next for work.  So, there'll be some discussions, some debate and lots of ideas that you can put into action.  Tickets are selling out for that event.  So, if you would like to come, we would love to see you there.  It is London Shaw Theatre, 7.00pm on 2 December.  We'll put the link to buy tickets in the show notes for the podcast.  And if you've got any questions or you can't find it, just get in touch with us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: And all the money that we raise from the tickets, all of the profits that we make are going to two brilliant charities, Beam and upReach.  So, not only do you get to learn, you also get to give back too.  What more could you want from an evening out in early December?

Helen Tupper: And actually, one last thing.  A couple of people emailed me about this because we mentioned it on last week's episode, and said, "We'd really love to come", but due to some different personal circumstances, they can't afford to right now.  And so, for those people, we are of course sorting out some free places to come to the event.  So, if that is you, if you're thinking, "Well, I'd really like to come and learn with you, but I'm just not in a position to right now financially", please email us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com and we will sort it out.  And you don't have to explain, you don't have to say any details about it, just say like, "This applies to me", and we will get you a ticket sorted.  So, please don't let that get in the way of your learning.

Sarah Ellis: So, in today's podcast, we're talking about how to get heard.  And this was some feedback that we had from a listener, where as soon as I read this, I thought, "I bet they're not alone.  I bet this feels frustrating for lots of people and quite a common challenge".  So, the challenge here is that when you are a good listener, or perhaps sometimes if you don't have the confidence that you would ideally like at the moment, you can struggle to get heard in meetings and in moments.  That might be all of the time, so this might be something that you consistently feel, or perhaps that's something that you feel in particular important meetings or where you've got lots of senior people there.  And this can end up with you getting feedback that you don't contribute enough or that people would like to hear you speak up more often, because they do value your contributions. And you might be thinking, "Well, I'd love to do that, but that feels really hard to make happen, because there's no space, people are already talking over each other", maybe it feels overwhelming, maybe people have got some very strong opinions, and maybe they say they want to hear you talk more, but do they really?  And so I think this is a challenge that a lot of people have at some points in their career. I don't think I ever had it consistently in every meeting or moment.  I think for me it would be more specific, it was about who was in that meeting.  And if certain people had maybe got a very different style to me, or maybe if the group size got to a certain point...  I never liked meetings with in-between numbers.  So, I would rather have a really big room full of lots and lots of people or a smaller group.  But you know a meeting of 15 to 20?

Helen Tupper: That's so specific!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, but I had quite a lot of meetings, you know if you have things like, in Sainsbury's and in Barclays actually, you'd have those quite big cross-functional meetings where they often would have 15 people in, because you've got people from lots of different departments.  And there, I think there's something about that number that I think feels particularly intimidating to me.  I think that's when I find it hardest to get heard.  What about you?

Helen Tupper: Well actually, I think, "When do you find it hard to get heard?" is actually a really good question to reflect on.  So, we'll put that in the PodSheet today, because I think it's a good one to answer.  When do I find it hard to get heard?  I was trying to work out in my career, is it companies that have made a difference, like you know, the culture of companies. 

So if I think about, I don't know, somewhere like E.ON, where I had a really open culture because of the leader, that was really easy to get heard.  But then I was thinking I loved working at Virgin, and that wasn't always easy to get heard, because there were so many ideas and there was so much energy that sometimes it was difficult.  So, I'm not sure it's company-specific.  I think mine is probably size, but different to you.  I think if it's a really, really big group, sometimes I just think, "Oh, can I make a difference here?" you know, if it's a really, really big group.

Sarah Ellis: What, almost question your contribution?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, a little bit, almost like the bigger the group, I go, "Maybe I'm not the person that adds the most value here".  So, I think I probably almost opt myself out.  I think I maybe become a little bit lazy, actually.  So, the reason I probably don't get heard is because I think, "Well, other people will say something".  But if you are consistently in environments with lots of people, that's probably not very good for your impact if that's your result.  I would think at Microsoft, every quarter, we used to have these big manager meetings and there'd be like 200 managers in a room. 

And that would be a situation where I would think, well, a whole range of reasons, confidence, competence, and maybe a bit of tiredness, I'd be thinking, "Am I able to get heard here?" and I'd probably opt out a bit.  So, big ones. Then maybe sometimes with very senior people. I think if I was in a room with a very, very senior person, I think in my head I would be thinking, "What you share has got to be really, really, really good".  And so suddenly, I've made this bar really high.  And then in my head, there's never anything good enough to say, so I just don't.  I just don't say it and I probably regret it afterwards.  But yeah, a range of different reasons that might get in the way of me getting heard.

Sarah Ellis: So, we've got five ideas to help you get heard in those meetings or moments where you might find it difficult.  And some of these are very tactical things, and some of them perhaps take a bit more practice and feel a bit more strategic.  So, hopefully as we go through, you'll be able to pick out the ones that feel most useful for you.

Helen Tupper: So, idea number one I think is one of those tactical ones, but that does not take away from how useful this one is.  So, that is to bookend meetings.  So, what we mean by that is at the start of a meeting, you can be the person who maybe says, "Okay, what we're gonna talk about today is… we've got half an hour together.  I think three of the most important topics for us to focus on are…" and then you don't have to necessarily speak for the rest of the meeting.  You've set the tone, you've set some direction, you've given people clarity about what they're there to talk about.  And then you can end the meeting by playing back, "Okay, so the three things that we've said consistently over the last 30 minutes are… and the actions we're taking away from today…" and you just summarise in that way. I think that if I go back to being the person who worries that they're not adding value when a senior person's in the room, you can still add a lot of value if you are the person setting the tone and summarising at the end of a meeting.  And I think it takes the pressure away. 

Also, it would keep me listening in order to say something that's useful to other people.  I think you've often got to be a good listener in that situation.  But I don't have to say anything particularly inspirational or amazing, I've just got to listen well and start and summarise.  And that bookending the meeting is a really good effective thing to do.

Sarah Ellis: And so our second idea is slightly different, because you might have listened to that and thought, "Well, I'd love to bookend meetings, but they don't belong to me".  And I think that is a hard action to take if it's not your meeting.  Or maybe if it's a more informal meeting where you all get on really well and you know each other well, perhaps who starts and ends a meeting rotates or you can choose to take on that responsibility.  But if I think about lots of the meetings that I'm in, often it's sort of predetermined who that meeting belongs to.

So, our second idea, which is very appealing to me, is that you don't have to know all of the answers.  So, to get heard doesn't equal having the answer.  And I think this was a misconception that I had in my career.  You know your point about wanting to be smart and being smart means having an answer?  I think often, the smartest person in the room, certainly from my perspective, they often aren't the people with the answers, they're the people with the really good questions.  They're the people who make you pause for thought, who perhaps surprise you, who bring a different insight.  And loads of people have a confidence gremlin about being put on the spot, not being a spontaneous, brilliantly on-the-spot thinker.  I don't think I'm a great on-the-spot thinker, I think I'm okay.  But because I work with someone, aka Helen, who is very good at this, I can see, I'm like, "Well, there's me being okay, and then there's working with someone who can do it".  You're like, "Oh, wow, that's a great skill to have", but that isn't me at my best. So, I always think, "Well, what can I do differently?  What can I do instead?" 

And I think what we're not saying then is like, okay, we haven't got the answers, don't have anything.  I think you've got to have an alternative to answers.  So, that alternative could be observations, and that can be an 'I', "Well, one of the things I've observed is…" or, "One of the things that I've noticed is…" both quite good ways into what you want to say.  I would probably say 'noticed', that just feels more like me.  It could be an insight that you've spotted.  So, this could be a fact or some data.  So, if you're somebody who's got those things, that's often a really good way to contribute to a conversation.  So, let's say for example, today we might be talking about our learning partners.  And maybe if you're someone in our team who knows, "Okay, well, 50% of our learning partners have got more than 1,000 people", bringing that into the conversation could feel really helpful, because I might be talking in quite general terms about our partners.  And then actually someone in our team could say, "Oh, and it's useful to remember that 50% of our partners have got more than 1,000 people".  And so, everyone sort of pauses at that and goes, "Oh, yes, that is useful, that is interesting. It could be a challenge or a concern that you want to raise.  I think I often do this because I am a natural -- Helen's massively nodding, in a positive way, I like to -- Helen Tupper: I do think it's positive, I think it's really useful.

Sarah Ellis: I think because I am a natural critical thinker, but equally I want to do that in a constructive way, I will often say things like, "Have we thought about or considered how we might approach...?"  Or if I've got something running through my mind, I'm like, "Oh, this seems problematic", but then I think, "Well, maybe it isn't".  So, then I will often ask, "It'd be really useful to get everyone's perspective on how we're going to manage..." or, "One area that I'd like to understand more is…"  And so, it's kind of either.  It's a bit of a statement or sometimes it's a question; you're definitely inviting other people to contribute, so you're not having to have the answers; and I think you are raising concerns in a kind of genuine, you want to listen, you want to know the answer.  So, you're not trying to catch people out, and I it should never feel like that. Then the last way, another alternative to not having any answers, so many, which is brilliant, is connecting the dots.  So, this could be bringing together a few of these things. 

So, you might bring observations that you've got from another meeting.  So, you might be like, "Oh, and one of the other things I do in my role is I look after this part of our customer journey.  And actually, they're having a very similar challenge.  So, I wonder what we could learn from them that might be useful for us".  And so, any of those I think work well.  And so, I think just taking the pressure off yourself to think, "Well, I must know all of the answers", any of those alternatives are really good contributions.  You don't need to say loads.  Helen and I were saying, some people we see have really good impact, say less, but what they say ends up being really memorable because they do one of these things.  And again, they're not trying to do all of these things.  They're just doing one of these things really well.

Helen Tupper: I think these people, so this is I think you, have so much power in their contribution, because what they say often changes the direction of a conversation.  Because you can have loads of people that are all just saying the same thing like, "I've got an idea", "That's a great idea" and it's all very like build-y.  But I often think these people are kind of going, "Just before we move on, have we considered…" and then everyone else goes, "Oh!"  It's like that, "Oh!" moment, because it's just a slightly different contribution that these people make, which means I think the words that they say, while they might not be as many or as loud as other people, they often get, I don't know, like they're often processed a bit more. 

They're kind of like, oh, that's different, I hadn't thought about it from that perspective, I hadn't considered that.  So, you end up making people think a bit harder, I think, which is why I think your words get heard almost at a deeper level because of the ways that you're contributing. So, a third idea for action is to ask someone to create the space for you to speak.  Now, who this person is will be different for you in your situation, but if I kind of think about some of the roles that I've had, I might be talking to my manager and I might be saying to them, like I could go back to Microsoft, for example, the context that I was working in in Microsoft, particularly my first job, was that I was working with an awful lot of very, very technical people.  And it was actually hard for me to contribute because I was thinking, "Well, I don't really know what they're talking about.  And also, how can I valuably contribute when the conversation is about technical stuff?  That's just not what I bring to the situation". So, what I could have done is spoken to my manager, Rob or Liam, who I worked for at the time, and just said, "I feel like I've got something of value to add, but I'm not quite sure how to make that contribution to the conversation, when it's very, very technical.  

And I really appreciate you helping me to add that into the meetings".  So, I've explained to them what I'm struggling with, which I think takes a little bit of vulnerability, so that's what I'm saying about who you say this to, I think, is important for you to reflect on, to make sure that's going to be a conversation that's open.  I would have said that with a bit of vulnerability.  And then that person in those meetings can then say, "Well, actually, Helen's got something that I know is important for her to share on this point.  I think we should hear from her now".  Or they might say, "Helen, have you got any builds on this?" But it's just this idea that that person is creating that space for you in that conversation, because they want to support you, and it just gives you a way in so you don't feel like you are having to interrupt people, which I think never feels nice.  People who are intentionally interrupting just doesn't feel nice if that's the action.  So, they've created the space for you to contribute.  And they might also be able to spot spaces in situations that you aren't in.  So, if you've had that conversation, they might think, "Oh,  actually, there's a meeting that I go to every week that I think could be a really good opportunity for you to share your thoughts in".  And it's the fact that they're in there and you've had that conversation that helps them to almost advocate for you to speak up in those situations.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think this is probably something we can all do, because you're essentially being an ally for each other.  So, even if you had a conversation as a team, I can imagine this being a team conversation, because you could connect this also with people's strengths and what they want to be known for, those areas of expertise that they want to make stronger.  So if I knew, for example, "Well, Helen loves prototyping ideas, and actually she would like more space to do that", every time I spot the chance to do that, if Helen and I are together, I might say, "Well, actually, Helen's been doing loads of work elsewhere on prototyping ideas, so it'd probably be useful to hear what she's learned from that".  So also, I'm making it easy, because Helen and I were chatting about this one.  We were like, you never want to put someone under pressure, because obviously then you're setting that person up to fail rather than to succeed.

So, we were like, how do you do this in a way where it then feels incredibly supportive?  One way is that you agree beforehand.  You've had the chat, this is what Helen says to me, "I want to talk about prototyping ideas more".  Or you go with something that you know is someone's area of natural strength.  You know you feel really confident that even if you did put someone on the spot about that area, they do know their stuff.  That is the thing that they know, and hopefully they know it better than anyone else there, so they can show their uniquely useful skill set in that moment.  But I think if you can chat about it, even better.  The more explicit I think you can be, probably the easier it is. So, number four are habits for getting heard.  So, if you're thinking, "Well, this is a cop out because this is lots of mini actions in one action", you are absolutely right.

Helen Tupper: You'd be right!

Sarah Ellis: Because then, we were chatting and we were like, "Well, there are all these small things that you could probably try out".  So, we've grouped them all together because they're probably all habits for getting heard, I guess, but these are some smaller things that are useful to remember.  I was listening to an actor on a different podcast, on Adam Buxton's podcast, and she was talking a bit about her mum, who I think actually trains actors, and her own experiences.  And she said, "The number one bit of advice is always the same, and it's to slow your pace".  

And I think for most people, we would benefit from slowing down a bit more.  It gives us credibility, it's often a signal of gravitas.  When we are rushing or speaking really quickly, it's hard to keep it up, but it's hard for other people's brains to keep up, so I think we are less likely to get heard. But if you are going to say less, if you are somebody who naturally says less, saying it with those pauses, we're not talking about going really slow because I think you have to work within your own natural range, but you might just slow down your natural range a bit.  You know in those moments where you're like, "I want to have even more impact here.  I do find it harder to get heard", I often think in those meetings, I'm likely to say less sentences.  So, the sentences that I do say, I really want to stand out, so that's probably when I'm going to go slower.  I don't think about this all of the time, but in those moments, I might just slow down.  So, Helen, as somebody who likes to bring energy, how would this work for you?  What might you do with this?

Helen Tupper: Well, it's a really good question because I'm not very good at slowing down.  I was just thinking, I always know, I know it when we're recording this podcast, I always know when I'm going too fast, when I literally trip up over my own words.

Sarah Ellis: "I'm so excited"!

Helen Tupper: "I'm talking so fast, even I can't speak.  This is bad.  That probably means they can't hear"!  So, I think sometimes I am talking in meetings because a talk's a process, and I'm thinking I'm talking quite quickly because I'm not really actually thinking about the other person, I'm talking almost to myself and other people happen to be in the meeting!  So, I think what I do when I'm trying to be heard, when I'm being really, really conscious, I tend to just have a couple of points, like just I will probably have them written down so that I keep coming back to them.  And coming back to that, I think we've mentioned this before, but I always remember getting taught that sort of triangle method of communication where, you know when you're trying to influence a conversation?

 So I think often, if I wanted to be heard, it's because I want to influence a conversation.  And the triangle method of communication is, you basically have three points and you just keep coming back to them. So, someone might say, "Oh, Helen, have you got perspective on this?"  And I'm like, "I'm going to go back to that point that I said before".  And I think you can do it in a subtle way, but I think the way that I slow my pace is I've basically got less to say, "I've only got these three points and I've got them written down, so I'm not going to waffle around them and I'm going to just keep coming back to them".  I think that's probably my intentional way of slowing my pace.

Sarah Ellis: So I think, Helen and I were talking, we think everybody's got that agility to slow down and to speed up.  And actually, a second habit is sometimes you might want to slow down, but in general, bringing some contrast into a conversation can be really useful.  So, if everyone's a tad frantic, if you can slow down, great, that will be noticeable.  If everybody is going around in circles in a conversation, or maybe it is a bit slow, and I can definitely be guilty of being more like this, that's when you do actually need energy, and you do need an injection of pace. 

And so actually, that's another way to get heard.  So, I don't think it always has to mean slowing down. Helen and I were talking beforehand.  We really like this idea of, bring what you're best at.  As a habit for getting heard, I do think you should start with what you're best at.  So, I don't think Helen should start by thinking, "Oh, I need to slow down all the time".  I think she should start by knowing that her energy makes a massive difference.  So, almost choosing, the intentionality of choosing, when am I going to bring that energy?  I need that, I need that from you sometimes, because I'm like, "Oh, I'm still thinking and I'm still reflecting here".  You're like, "Okay, there's a point where we just need to move forward", and you need that energy.  And I think I'm better at reflecting and going slower, and so sometimes then going even slower for me might work around being heard.  So, just looking for some contrast I think can also be really helpful.

Helen Tupper: Well, I guess the question to ask yourself is, "When do people most need to hear me?"  And so, if bringing my best is all about energy, when in a day or a week do people most need to hear me?  Or if bringing my best is about accurate information, clarity, when in that day do they most need that?  And I think that helps you to think, "Well, there's no point in me doing that at the start of the meeting, but actually halfway through when people are going around in circles, that's when they most need to hear me", and it's probably when you're going to make the biggest difference. This is a bit similar, the third habit, but a useful one, just dropping it, similar to that first one we talked about, bookending; summarising, really useful, but you don't need to just do it at the end of a meeting.  You can say, "Okay, so just to reflect on the conversation so far before we move on, what I've heard is…  Are we all in agreement?  Okay, I think, Sarah, you were about to say something else".  So, you can be a summariser within a meeting, and then I think it's a really valuable role for people to play.  People like to hear that, because they might have got a bit lost in the conversation. Then another one that you can do, and Sarah and I were saying that we do this quite often, is using people's name when you are presenting or talking, just in conversation in a meeting.  Using people's name can be a way that you can be heard by more people. 

So let's say, I don't know, we're talking about an event that we're planning, everyone's got ideas, it's quite difficult to get my voice heard because there's loads of stuff going on.  What I could do is refer to a conversation with someone that I'd had last week.  So I might say, "Okay, actually, just one of the things I want to talk about is a conversation that Danielle and I had last week".  And suddenly, Danielle is primed.  She's like, "Oh, Helen's talking about our conversation".  So, you've brought Danielle to you, she's listening, and then other people are like, "Oh, what went on in this conversation?"  So, it sort of makes it a bit more real and relevant to other people, and actually to the very specific person, it might be a couple of people, you might say, "Oh, Danielle and Sarah, we were discussing last week a conversation about this.  I think it might be useful for us to replay that to everyone in the room now". Just using people's names, names are a bit of a mental magnet because we're so attached to them, that as soon as you use someone's name in a conversation, it brings their attention towards you.  It's not a tactic that you want to overuse, but it is quite a useful one to drop into some situations.

Sarah Ellis: And then the last thing, which Helen and I were both saying has worked really well for us, is remember that being heard is not all about in the moment.  There is definitely a lot of opportunity to get heard after the moment.  How you follow up with people, what you remember, looking out and staying curious about a topic that's important to someone and connecting those dots.  I often think about the people where I've been able to stand out from the crowd, I think it is very rarely for me in the moment.  It might be a bit more now, but certainly for most of my career, I think it was more that I stayed committed to that topic or to that person or I wanted to be heard by that person, I recognised that that was important to get my job done.  And then I really thought about, well, what does that look like?  How do I stay front of mind?  What does being relevant look like?  And that's not always as well what you say. I would actually think really carefully about things like the emails that I sent and keeping them short and specific and useful.  Because I would think, "Well, I want my voice to be heard by this person and I'm not speaking.  So, therefore, brevity matters here because they're senior and they probably get 4 million emails every day", or whatever. 

And I wonder then, I guess that is sometimes hard now because you've got so many different types of communication.  You know, everyone's on Slack or Teams as well as email.  And if you're like me, you get voice notes from me, and all those kind of things.  So, you've got to be careful, I think, not to overstate the moment.  I think we could get really preoccupied by how much you say.  I think what you say matters way more than how much you say.  So, we were talking about value matters more than volume. There's also probably a point where if this is something where it's not you, you're not the most talkative person, letting go of, "Well, that's how I add the most value", overall we want to be in organisations where talking a lot shouldn't mean you're the person with the most to offer, the most value.  And I know that that sometimes won't feel true.  I know that in some places, you'll still be like, "Yeah, they just dominate and then they seem to make all the decisions", and that is really frustrating.  But you've got to hope that's going to change a bit. 

So, I think this is also, you make some choices, don't you, about in your culture, what do you notice, what do you see, and you have to choose how much you're going to do this. I just wanted to say before we do the last idea, which I'm never sure whether this is motivating or demotivating, but I think it can be helpful if you get worried or you overthink, "I want to say more in meetings", but to Helen's point at the start, "Am I smart enough?" etc.  Just remember, people don't listen very well!  It definitely is true because I have read so much research about listening.  We've written a chapter on listening in our new book, which is sort of the opposite.  So, the people who are very good at listening are probably listening to this going like, "That's the thing that I'm great at".  Maybe we'll help you get even better.  But every time you read about listening, you're like, wow, people's mind wanders so quickly, we get distracted, people are thinking about what they're going to say next, or what they're having for tea, or what they've forgotten on their to-do list.  Now, we want to pay attention and we want to concentrate, but it's maybe a helpful reminder, people are not listening to every single word, and they're not critically evaluating every single word.  They will get a sense of you and what you said, but they're not going to dive really specifically. We were trying to remember from our team meeting this morning, in terms of what people said.  And it's not like Helen and I could remember -- it was only this morning, and it's only the end of the day now -- we couldn't remember every single word, but there were some standout statements and sentences where we were like, "Oh, yeah, that really stood out for us", and that was because, "Oh, that person has got a really good pace.  And that just means they don't say loads, but what they do say, everyone remembers".  So, I think it is just a useful reminder.

Helen Tupper: So, our final idea for action, though I am quite distracted by thinking, "What am I going to have a dinner?" now you've just said that, and you've just dropped that into the chat!  But our final idea for action is about designing meetings with a format that includes everybody.  If it's your meeting, it's quite an easy thing for you to do, you could just change the meetings around; or you might be able to suggest an experiment, if it's not your meeting at the moment, so that you can have a bit of influence over how this happens.  But obviously, there are some meetings where you have to find your way into them to be heard, and that's some of the ideas that we have shared.  But there are some meetings that can be designed so that everyone can be heard, and that's what we're thinking about. An example of this, we have a Monday morning meeting for our business where we go around everybody.  We have a set agenda, so everyone talks about their priorities for the week ahead, they talk about their highest-energy moment and they talk about any red flags.  And we go around every person and we quickly share that and you pick who you pass it on to.  So, it's always a slightly different order about who comes, but it does mean that that meeting does not end until everybody has shared those insights.  Now, not every meeting we have is like that.  So, some of them, Sarah and I were talking, we're probably quite a lot more dominant in them or driving that conversation.  But that is a really important meeting where we have designed it. The reason we're probably more dominant in other ones is because we just haven't really thought about the design of it.  We've put it in the diary, there's something we want to talk about, and we just start the conversation and probably keep going.  But when it is designed for everyone to contribute, then from the outset, it means that everyone's going to get heard.  So, those sort of rotating-roles meetings, or there's a time that everyone's to talk before it passes on, or whatever it is, I think that is a guaranteed way that everyone will get heard.

Sarah Ellis: And one of the things that we've been reading about, and we've tried actually in a few different ways, is this format of brain writing, which is where everybody's got a question or a problem that you're working through, or just a topic that you're going to talk about, but everybody gets a bit of time to write down what they think or their response or their reaction for themselves first.  So, you're all live, you're doing this together.  This is not -- you don't prep beforehand, you're using some of your time in the meeting to do this.  So, we've got a big event coming up, we might say, "How do we want everybody to feel at the end of that day?"  And we might just go, "Let's all just write that down in a sentence or so, and we're just going to take two or three minutes to do that", and we're just quiet, and everyone does that.  And then you go round, everybody just says out loud what they've written.  And the idea is not to write some incredible words, but to give everyone the space to figure out firstly what they think, but to know that they're then going to get to contribute those words. I think when people do this for things like creative ideas, which is where I think it's used the most, what it really helps with is avoiding the highest-paid-person opinion. 

So, I mean, you could argue that as founders, like Helen and I, we might feel like we have a sort of almost too much -- we're too invested in Amazing If because we love it so much, which is true.  That would be true.  And so there could be a pressure for our team to think, well, our ideas have to win, "It's their company, so their ideas have to win".  Whereas if you did this, and let's say Helen and I go last, and you might really consciously choose to do that, that would probably be quite a smart thing to do, by the time it gets to Helen and I, we might be repeating some things that other people have said, we might have heard things that are better than what we've written, we probably would do, and also it means there's no right answer. 

There's not this assumption of like, well, let's say I went first, and then someone's looking at their bit of paper and going, "Oh, I've written something really different, and that then must not be right". Every time we have done anything like that, Helen and I will often do it when we get a bit stuck together.  So, say we're working on something quite big or meaningful, or where we like to say, "It feels a bit knotty", we'll be together and then we'll both say, should we both just write down what we think we're trying to do?  It always sounds a bit like that.  She's like, "Shall we both…?  We're both obviously usually getting bit exasperated by that point or whatever.  And we'll go like, "Right, okay".  And then, we just write down whatever we think we're trying to achieve, or what we think the problem really is, whatever it might be.  And then it's so interesting.  Sometimes we are coming at things from completely different directions and that always helps to move us forward.  Sometimes actually there's a lot of consistently, we're like, "Okay, this is obviously the thing, so let's really focus on that". But that is another really good way to make sure that everybody gets heard.  And also, there's a lot of evidence, I think, with brain writing, it's very inclusive for people who think in different ways.  So, maybe if you've got neurodivergent needs across the team, or you just want to try and experiment with a different way of encouraging everyone to participate, do it in a low-pressure way, I would say, to get started.  Don't try and fix your company strategy necessarily with it, but do it in a way where it's easy to experiment with.

Helen Tupper: And what we'll do is on PodPlus, which is on Thursday morning, so Thursday following this podcast, at 9.00am in the UK, we will practise a little bit of brain writing.  So, if that is something that you have not done before, then as a way of making sure that people have time to reflect and gather their thoughts and kind of get those thoughts heard, then we will practice a little bit of brain writing, we'll do a few exercises in PodPlus.  So, come along to that if you would like to. So, I will just summarise our five ideas for action for you now, and these will also be in the PodSheet, which is the one-page downloadable summary that you can get from our website, amazingif.com.  So, idea one was to book end meetings; two was that you don't have to have all the answers; three was, ask someone to create space for you to speak; four was some helpful habits for getting heard; and five was to design a format that includes everyone.

Sarah Ellis: So, we hope that's been a useful episode.  I don't think this is an easy thing to do well, and so I think partly give yourself a break.  So, consider the environment that you're in and be realistic about what this looks like for you.  But if you're in a real high-trust team like Helen talked about and you're feeling good about where you are, hopefully this will give you lots of ideas to experiment with or to try out, and maybe even a different lens to look on how to get heard and what that means and how to make that happen. 

But that's everything for this week.  As always, thank you so much for listening.  We really hope to see you at the live podcast, if you are able to make that in December.  It'd be lovely to have lots of the Squiggly Career community there, I'm going to say cheering us on.  Obviously, it's not a competition, because 'cheering us on' sounds a bit like a competition.  But equally, I definitely do want lots of Squiggly Careers listeners there.

Helen Tupper: It's The Career Collective not the Career Competition, which podcast is best?!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's true!

Helen Tupper: That's not it!

Sarah Ellis: Well, to be fair, they would probably all absolutely love to have that conversation on stage, and I definitely don't want to have that conversation! Helen Tupper: We should have done The Big Career Quiz Show, we should have had like buzzers or something!

Sarah Ellis: Oh my God, yeah!

Helen Tupper: We won't do that now, that's a bad idea now.  Everyone, we'll end it here on this useful note.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you so much, everyone.  See you next week.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.