Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:25: Relationship ripples vs networking

00:04:50: Five ideas for actions…

00:05:03: … 1: be memorable

00:09:19: … 2: join the dots

00:14:48: … 3: spot the opportunity – ten ideas for gives

00:19:56: … 4: fast follow-up

00:24:26: … 5: stay in touch

00:29:58: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we take a different topic to do with work and we talk about some ideas and actions that we hope will help all of us navigate these Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence and control.

Helen Tupper: And you might be listening for the first time or you might be listening after the Sprint, in which case we should probably let you know a little bit more about this episode and the podcast, because it's a bit different than the Sprint. 

So, it's a slightly longer episode for a start, it's a 30-minute episode and this episode will come with a PodSheet.  So, rather than if you did the Sprint, those short seven-minute episodes that came with all of our little summaries of the Sprint and videos on YouTube, this is a slightly longer conversation where we're going to dive deeper into a skill that we think is really important for your Squiggly Career. 

And to support you, you'll get a one-page summary and you also can join, if you want to, a 30-minute free conversation with either Sarah or myself, which is called PodPlus.  So, this happens on a Thursday morning and we have a community of 100 to 200 people who join and discuss the episode in a bit more detail.  All of it is free, all of it is to help you in your career and all the information you need is on our website, amazingif.com. So today, we're going to be talking about how to grow your relationship ripples.  And the idea for the episode came out of a LinkedIn post that I did about a radio show that I'd been on. 

And the only reason that I got to go onto this radio show, and bear with me because it's a slightly long explanation, but it's because the host of the show was at an event that I was at.  And during the event, I saw some other people that I knew who introduced me to that person.  And then, the only reason I was at that event in the first place was because somebody invited me.  And the point was that if I hadn't had that initial contact, it wouldn't have led me to go to that event where I met the host and ended up on the radio show.  And the insight really was that we can either go around our Squiggly Career making lots of individual connections with people, which is fine, you can do that.  It takes quite a lot of effort, but you can make lots of individual connections with people. 

Or, what you can do is make those conversations you're having, the connections you're making, work a bit harder for you.  And there's certain things that you can do, which means that those relationships that you are creating in that moment have more ripples, they go further, they lead to more opportunity, and that's what we want to try and help you with.

Sarah Ellis: And so, this is a bit different to something like networking, which I think can always feel, certainly if you're like me and you're more introverted, a bit more intimidating or hard to make happen. 

What we're going to really focus on today, as Helen described, is almost making more and making the most of the conversations you're already having.  So, these could be internal or external conversations, might be conversations you have in networks or communities, could just be like one-to-ones with your managers or people you chat to at work.  But you will already have loads of relationships and our point is some of those relationships could probably work a bit harder for you in your career, and let's figure out what you might want to do to get that outcome, to get more from those connections and those conversations. Helen and I were reflecting on this for ourselves and how useful it had been, and we'll share some more examples as we go through the actions. 

And sometimes, I think you might be good at creating relationship ripples in the moment.  So, during that conversation, maybe you're good at connecting dots or you're great at asking the right questions that lead to those ripples.  Or sometimes, you might be somebody who after the moment spots the opportunity.  And I think either works really well.  So, this is not about putting pressure on yourself in a conversation to think, "I must create a relationship ripple", because that's really unrealistic and won't always feel relevant.  And I can definitely think of examples where I've maybe been having a conversation with somebody, and it's only two or three days later or a week later that I think, "Oh, actually, that person was really interesting and I can imagine learning more from them, or I think there might be opportunities for us to work together". 

And then I sort of create those reputational ripples after the fact. Or sometimes, I will talk to somebody and my brain does connect the dots and I can do that in that moment, and that's one of the ways that I can be useful.  So, don't feel like this has to dramatically change your conversations or make them feel forced or false, because that's never going to work well for us.  But hopefully, in some of the actions that we're going to describe, you might just make some small changes or I just think sometimes be a bit more intentional about thinking, "Well, how can these conversations lead to more learning, support me with my career development, maybe help me to meet some people that I've not met before?"

Helen Tupper: So, we have got five actions which will help you to create more ripples in your relationships, and we'll go through each one of them in turn and try to maybe bring it to life with some of the ways that this has worked well for us.  So, the first way that you can create ripples is to be memorable in those moments and meetings and conversations that you are having.

Sarah Ellis: No pressure, be memorable!

Helen Tupper: Be memorable everyone, just be memorable!  I think the thing that's really important here is to work out what makes you memorable, rather than thinking you need to do something completely dramatic and different and start, I don't know, I've just come back from Disney --

Sarah Ellis: Jazz hands!

Helen Tupper: -- so I'm thinking of a song and dance routine and be like some Disney cartoon character; not that, unless that's you!  But I think it is what makes you memorable.  So, regular listeners will know that I think one of the things that I am known for is my energy.  Like, if I'm in a meeting or I'm in an event, it is often my energy that kind of stands out first, I would say, my energy or my shoes maybe.  Whereas I think for Sarah, Sarah asks such great questions.  Like, if you're in a conversation with Sarah for the first time, you would probably come away going, "She was really smart and she made me think", because Sarah would just ask you questions that other people don't ask you.  And I think just understanding what makes you memorable and make sure that you are showing up with that in that moment, you're meeting someone for the first time or the conversation you're having with someone internally, whatever it is, is a really important way that you start to create a bit of a ripple.

Sarah Ellis: And we were thinking about a couple of people that we've spent time with and what makes them stand out.  So, you might have listened to our podcast episode with Pinky Lilani.  And Helen and I met Pinky at Downing Street, which sounds like our life is, I don't know, more political and glamorous than it is.  But the one time that we went to Downing Street, we met Pinky.  And she didn't know anything about who we were, but she just came up to us very confidently.  So, she definitely had this sort of energy that she brought, and she just was really curious.  She was like, "So, what do you do?" 

She was so passionate and enthusiastic about what she had got to give that you really felt like she was trying to spot during a conversation how she could be helpful for us.  I felt like that and the fact she had some incredible jewellery on, which her and Helen definitely bonded over, but you could just see she wanted to support female entrepreneurs. So, she said to us, she was like, "Well, yeah, let me know any ways I can help", and talked about some examples of some things that she'd done.  And it felt very genuine.  It didn't feel like, "Oh, we're at this networking event, she's saying it because she feels she has to, or for something to say".  She was almost just like, "Tell me how I can help".  And we were both thinking, "Okay, well what about this?"  So, you then start to generate ideas.  And I can even remember where we were standing –

Helen Tupper: Yeah, me too.

Sarah Ellis: -- when we had that conversation.  So, I think her confidence shone through, maybe that confidence of being brilliant and experienced, but then just her like, "I want to be helpful, I want to give back", I just always remember that conversation.  And then, it gave me the confidence.  I think she shared her confidence in a way where then I got in touch with her very quickly, she then ended up coming on the podcast.  I'll always remember emailing her and she just rang me straight away, and I'm someone who does not enjoy phone conversations.  And I was like, "Nobody phones anyone anymore, but Pinky does".  And I picked up the phone and I was like, "Oh, we're just having like an old-school chat on the phone".  So, she preferred phone to email. But it was, it was so interesting, because I think she naturally creates ripples wherever she goes.  I think she is almost like a hub and then she'll create those ripples.  And then when I did talk to her, she was like, "Well, who else can I introduce you to?  What else can I do?"  So, it's not just one ripple, it's like multiple ripples.

Helen Tupper: I was going to say that I think generosity, what makes her stand out, she's so generous.  And to be that person in a room, you know, Downing Street was pretty daunting, but then sometimes meetings at work are pretty daunting too when they've got senior people in them.  And to be that person who makes other people immediately feel comfortable, I think that is such a -- I mean, she's generous over and above that, but that is such a generous thing I think to do for somebody.  I was also thinking, Pinky is probably a pretty good case study for the rest of the ideas for action that we've got, because you're talking about, she is a really great example of someone who creates ripples. So, the second action that we'd suggest if you want to create more ripples in your relationships is to join the dots.  So, in those conversations that you are having with people, you can often find points of connection and it doesn't always have to be about the work you're doing. 

It might be, you might be working on the same project and that's sort of an immediate point of connection that you've got.  But it could be about things that you are both interested in, so jewellery for example with Pinky, that was an immediate point of connection, because we both love jewellery and we could talk about that very quickly.  Or, I was thinking about some people that we've spent time with before.  Rob Pierre for example, he used to be the CEO of Jellyfish, he was actually the person who sparked the ripple that I posted about on LinkedIn in the first place, which is why he comes to mind. But Sarah and Rob and I have a real shared passion about learning and leadership.  And it doesn't matter that we've not done the same job.  That is a connection that we have that takes that conversation to a slightly deeper and different place.  Sometimes it can be about kids or where you live, but being curious in a conversation helps you to join the dots.

Sarah Ellis: And so, I was trying to think about what are some questions that might just be useful to have in mind that you'll want to word and say in your own way.  But if you're thinking, "Oh, I want to do more of that connecting the dots", I think if I was at something external, so I was at an event or I didn't know people, I often will ask people a bit about not necessarily their job, because I think you don't really want to get into job titles, but I will talk to people about, "Oh, how long have you worked in marketing; or, how long have you been working in book publishing?" 

And the reason I'll ask about people's industry is it's a useful prompt to get people to share their Squiggly Career story with you.  And as soon as people start sharing their stories with you, that's when you can start to create connection, because you'll always find some point of connection. Actually, talking about this, somebody who works in our company, Lucy, was on holiday down in Cornwall, and she met somebody who is a mum of someone who goes to the same school as my son, and they got there, they got to me as their common point of connection!  I think partly through geography, and then just talking a bit about the jobs that they did and, "Oh, have you always worked in careers?"  And then Lucy was like, "Oh, no, I worked with somebody called Sarah at Barclays". 

And I think Jules, who's my friend, then started to connect those dots.  But I think if Lucy hadn't started sharing her Squiggly Career story, or just her story a bit, it's hard to create the connections.  So, I always try to ask a question that gets people just sharing a bit, nothing too intense, I probably do sometimes ask quite intense questions.  Or, just an easier one is, "How did you hear about this event?"  Or, if there's a person who's putting on that event or leading it, "Oh, how are you connected to Helen?" just again to just be like, "Oh, well actually, I don't know her but my friend does".  And again, that gets somebody chatting. If you're having a conversation internally, where those questions would probably be a bit weird or a bit out of context, just saying to people, "Oh, what else are you working on at the moment?"  So, maybe you're already having a conversation about a project or a task you're doing together, but going, "What else?  What else is happening in your world?  Or, what else are you working on?" again, you get people to share a bit more about what else is happening, and then you can understand what they care about, or maybe what's challenging, which is quite useful.  Or, you might have something in your company that you just know you're going to have in common.  So, "What do you think about the news that… we're going to be launching a new product?"  "Have you seen the latest Christmas campaign and what do you think about it?" you know, just those things that everybody has a point of view or opinion on that you can just chat about for a bit.

Helen Tupper: The budget.  I mean, that's what I'll be talking about now, the budget, big news on the budget in the UK at least.  Or politics generally, those are probably sort of --

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I mean I tend to veer away from politics, but yeah, I guess something like the budget is more universal, right?  You don't have to get into people's politics.  But just things that it's more just having a conversation that goes a bit beyond being transactional.  I think sometimes, and there's some good evidence of this actually from a lady called Margaret Heffernan, who's been on the podcast before, where she talks about too many of our conversations have got so transactional and task-based that essentially we don't create reputation ripples, we don't create these connections, because we're trying to be efficient and we're trying to be productive. 

But then, we can lose some of that beyond-the-day-job stuff that can actually end up being really helpful for everyone. So, of course you can't do this every moment and there are moments where you just need to be fast and focused, but there are also times where you do have the chance to be like, "What else are you working on?" just to be interested and to be intrigued.  And I often do think it is those conversations where you start to go, "I feel like I know someone that bit better".  And as soon as you know someone that bit better, then I think you get into the ripples.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I agree.  And the conversations stop pretty quickly I think when you have the whole like, "What's your job title?" thing, whereas, "What are you working on at the moment, or how's your week going, or what do you think about this?" they just take the conversation in directions that you can't really predict and I think they're more interesting for everybody.  You'll learn a lot more and you'll find way more points of connection.

So, our third idea for action is all about spotting the opportunity.  So, when you are in conversation with somebody and maybe you've joined a few dots up, be alert for how you could help each other.  Now, our principle when we're talking about networking is that networking is about people helping people, and you should always start with what you've got to give. 

So, whilst that person might be helpful to you, we do think it is a lot easier to be on the lookout for what you've got to give and to start with that to begin with.  So, as an example, I remember when I was at Virgin and I was meeting lots of people in the different Virgin companies. So, when I worked at Virgin, I had a job at the middle of Virgin and then there were all the different Virgin businesses.  So, I'd be meeting loads of people all the time, building lots of new connections and relationships, and people inside and outside of Virgin.  One of the things that I could give, if I was having a follow-up meeting, for example, I could say, "Oh, why don't we meet in [what was called] the Battleship Building?"  It was the head office at the time.  Because actually, not many people got to go to the Battleship, because it wasn't really that big, that part of the business.  But it was the centre, where sometimes Richard would be there and there's all of the Virgin memorabilia, like meetings and moments and medals, and all kinds of things are all over the walls in that building.  And it was just culturally, it was the cultural hub.  And so having a meeting in that space was always quite interesting for people, and it was all to give.

Sarah Ellis: And like, fun.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, it was such an easy give.  We were going to have a meeting anyway, so I'd be like, "Why don't you come to head office?"  Do you know, someone did this to me today.  I was catching up with somebody on LinkedIn actually, who funnily enough, I used to work with at Virgin, joining dots, and she said, "Oh, do you want to meet in the office?"  And she was like, "We could have breakfast, lunch, or dinner".  I was like, "Oh, there's a dinner option in your office!"  But that's clearly a give, that's something that that person could offer.  And so, be on the lookout for how you could be helpful.  Recognise that sometimes it's okay for that to come from the other person to you. that's a very generous thing for them to do.  Sarah's got some ideas that she's going to share as well.  If you're thinking, "Well, that's nice Helen, but I don't work at Virgin and I don't have an office that has breakfast, lunch and dinner", there are some other ways that make it easier to get started with what you've got to give. S

arah Ellis: So, we've come up with 10 ideas for gives to get you started.  So, let's imagine for a second you don't work in a super cool office, that Richard Branson might be meandering around.  You might be thinking, "Right, I need to think of something that's perhaps more in my control".  So, here we go, I'll go through the list quite quickly.  One: expertise, so what are you an expert in?  What skills have you got?  What can you help people with?  Two: experience, what have you done in your Squiggly Career so far?  Have you mainly been in big organisations?  Have you been in lots of different kinds of organisations and industries? 

So, how can your experiences be useful.  Three: events, so if you're going to events or you're already part of communities or networks, can you give that to other people, can you include other people?  Your curiosity, so if you're great at reading, watching, listening to lots of different things, that's really useful.  Your connections, so if you're well connected you can be generous with those connections. Just your time, I think don't underestimate that.  Sometimes just giving somebody the space, listening to somebody, giving someone half an hour of your time can be very valuable.  Your passion.  I think before we were more expert in career development than certainly we are today, I was just really passionate about practical career development.  So, lots of my giving was based on passion and time put together.  So, I'd got some time, I'd got lots of passion, and putting that together meant that I could give in a really meaningful way.

Helen Tupper: Do you still have passion and time?

Sarah Ellis: I still have passion!  I have time in a different way.  I have a 7-year-old that I didn't have seven years ago.  And so, that changes how you spend your time.  But I do still have some time.  And I also, actually on that one, I do challenge myself, because I think it is easy to say to yourself, "I don't have time".  And regular listeners will know that I'm sort of a superfan of Oliver Burkeman and his book, Four Thousand Weeks: Time and How We Spend It, and I think I have actually a fair bit of control and choice over my time. 

So, I can still use my time to help people, not all of the time, but definitely some of the time.  So, that was six and seven. Eight is access to something that's unique and different, so this is Helen's building example.  Nine: your strengths, always give your strengths, it's a smart thing to do.  By giving your strengths, by sharing them, you'll make them stronger.  And then ten: a recommendation. 

So, if you have, maybe it might be something you'd recommend someone reads or a newsletter someone signs up to or a community, you can recommend loads of different things, but people always appreciate a personal recommendation because it means a lot, because someone is saying, "This has been useful for me and I feel like this could be useful for you too".  So, hopefully in those ten ideas for gives to get you started, there is one there that you think, "Yeah, I could do that.  That could work for me".

Helen Tupper: So, idea for action number four is all about the fast follow-up.  And this is one that I'm always surprised more people don't do.  So, I will often put out a lot of gives in a conversation, you know, could come into your team, do mentoring.  I'll do lots of gives, I'll do that thing that Sarah talked about, but what I don't get is a lot of follow-up from people.  And follow-ups might look like someone sending you an email and saying, "Oh, Sarah, you mentioned you were passionate about this.  I'd love to have a conversation with you about it if you've got the time", just continuing that conversation with a bit of a follow-up.  But I think lots of people don't.  They have the conversation and they move on to the next thing, which means that that ripple basically stops at that point.  It can't go any further without you doing a fast follow-up.  And when we say fast, we sort of mean within a couple of days.  I think if it's too fast, sometimes that could be a bit tricky.  Though I have sometimes connected with people on LinkedIn on the way home from an event.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think that's fine.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I think just be conscious of what feels appropriate.  But I would say within a few days of a conversation, some kind of follow-up is useful.  Connect on LinkedIn, send them the email.  Sometimes I've done a voice note to people.  If I happen to have their number and I know them on WhatsApp, I might go, "I really enjoyed talking.  One of the things that has really stayed with me is your idea about…  I'd love to move that forward, let me know how we can make that happen".  It could be something as simple as that.  My example that I started with about going on a radio show was very much a fast follow-up.  So, in conversation, I got talking to somebody about what Sarah and I do and they said, "Oh, you should come on the radio show and talk about it".  Now, I don't know how many people that person gave that give to on that night, it could have been a lot of people that they said that, because that's one of the things that they can generously give.  What I do know is that I followed up.  Within two days, I got in touch and said, "It was really great to meet you.  If that offer still stands, I'd like to take you up on it", and that's what led to me going on the show.  If I hadn't done that, I don't think it would have happened.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think this is the one that I'm not very good at.  I think I do a few things wrong here.  I think I sometimes overthink it, so I definitely know following up is a good thing, it's on my mind, so I don't miss the moment, it's not like I've not spotted, "Oh, that would be a good thing to do".  But I think sometimes, because I'm still processing and reflecting, and because that's naturally the way that I will think about things, then I sometimes think for so long, then I get a bit like, "Oh, now it's too far afterwards".  Or I might forget.  Obviously, the longer you wait, the more likely you are to forget. 

And I do wonder whether sometimes, keeping it short, simple, and specific is probably the key to a fast follow-up.  And so, you don't have to reflect back to somebody everything that they said to you that was useful.  You don't have to be like, "Oh, you said this, and this is what I thought".  I think that's because sometimes that is what is running through my mind. But actually, if I just stopped and had a bit of a sense in my head of going, actually the most important thing often for me with these fast follow-ups is to say thank you.  That's what I really want to do, and that's what I don't like.  If I don't do it, I feel like I've not said thank you, and I'm like, "Oh, but it's polite to say thank you I should say thank you".  So, probably here what would help me, as a bit of a mental shortcut, and our brains love a shortcut because they help us to remember to do things that we want to do, if I said to myself, "What matters most is a thoughtful thank you?" so it is not sharing all of my insights and everything that might be going through my head, and I don't need to give everything that might be helpful straightaway.  What I do need to do in my fast follow-up is a thoughtful thank you.  So, not just like, "Oh, thanks, cheers, great to meet you".

Helen Tupper: Great to meet, yeah.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I'm like, "I might as well not bother".  But if I just do, "Oh, thanks, I really appreciate that today, I'm definitely going to follow up and do this thing, and you've really sparked a thought for me about..." it's just enough and it shows people that they've had a positive impact on you, they're more likely to help you again, they're more likely to help other people.  And even by doing that thoughtful thank you, that will help what you have written stick in your own head as well.  So, I think this is something I need to approach in a different way, because I can think of quite a few examples where I have left it too long because I do get stuck in a bit of a thinking spiral.

Helen Tupper: Well, I think it's the final action is the one that I could get better at, and I actually think if I did it, I think it would make quite a big difference to my ripples.  I think I'd go, I'm all right to this point, the things that we've talked about so far.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you're very good at this.

Helen Tupper: I'm kind of good at joining dots, I'm good at a fast follow-up because it's quite efficient.  But the thing that I would like to do better is idea for action number five, which is about staying in touch.  So, if you take the approach that Sarah and I have recommended, you'll be having conversations with people inside, outside your organisations, you're making quite a lot of connections and you've done the follow-up.  But what I think I am then doing is forever filling my career community with new connections, rather than putting a bit more effort into continuing the ones I've made.  So, idea for action number five is all about staying in touch, and I think that you could approach this one quite strategically by sort of pressing pause and going, "Over the last three months, what's a new connection that I've made?" 

Or, "What's a conversation that has been particularly memorable for me?"  And then thinking, "When is the right moment to get back in touch with that person?" I don't do that.  I might hold it in my head and be like, "Oh, that person was brilliant, I should stay in touch with them", but then I end up holding so many people in my head that I should stay in touch with, that I don't think I'm particularly strategic about, of that long list of people I could or should stay in touch with, who do I actually make the effort to reach out to and say, "Oh, how are you going?  I still remember that conversation that we had", or, "I've loved that book that you recommended.  I've recommended it to someone else since".  I'm not very strategic about that.  And I think if I was, the conversations that could be really helpful to me, the connections that I've made that could help me learn more, could ripple a bit further.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I wonder if this is harder for you because of volume, because naturally you meet a lot of people and you like new connections, you create lots of new connections.  And so actually, almost until this point, you're like, "Brilliant, I'm having the conversations, I'm making the most of them, I'm doing the fast follow-up".  I guess at this point, you have to make some choices because you won't be able to do that with everybody.  And then maybe what the point is, you end up doing it with no one because you're like, "Oh, okay, but I've got all of these people that I'm holding in my head".  Whereas, I feel like this bit, I am better at, because once I have created a connection and if I've followed up, for a few people I am really good at staying in touch.

Helen Tupper: You are.

Sarah Ellis: And I create that kind of quality of relationship, because that comes more naturally to me as well.  I'm like, as soon as we have something as a company, like when Helen and I need some help, we need some advice, we need to ask people for things, I think straightaway I can be like, "Oh, well that's great, I'll just ask these five people".  Whereas, Helen sometimes finds it a bit harder to know who to ask for help because almost it's like, okay, well she's got these 100 people that she might have met so far this year, but then perhaps hasn't quite got to this point with everybody.  So then, that feels a little bit harder. We were, it may or may not be obvious, preparing for this podcast beforehand, and we were talking about this as almost being like for those people who remember, I feel like this is a 1980s thing, but I could be wrong, the Rolodex of contacts and connections. 

And I feel like we don't really have, and maybe someone has and they can let us know, we don't really have a new version of that that feels useful.  So, we were saying it feels like you need a sort of career or career development CRM, because you're not just going to do a list, because that does feel a bit transactional somehow.  But I think what I like about the Rolodex thing is going, "Oh, okay, so who could be an early reader for our new book?"  Straight away, I've already got -- some of them know it, some of them don't know it -- I've got five people in my head who I really want to be early readers for our new book.  One of them knows, four of them to come!  And I feel like that's what my brain does in that moment.  It does the Rolodex and goes, "Who would be helpful?  Who would be able to do that for us?" But I would like that to feel more than just a Rolodex in my brain, because also you're probably missing some people, right?  I might be missing some people who would be brilliant early readers who just maybe don't spring to mind or they're not front of mind for some reason.  So, I feel like that's a job for us to do at some point, Helen, create a career development CRM for everyone.

Helen Tupper: Right, okay.  I'll add it to the list!

Sarah Ellis: Add it to the list!

Helen Tupper: It's a long list, everybody, of things that we need to create to support people with their Squiggly Careers, which is good because we like doing it.  Yeah, I also think, just back to the point why don't I think I'm brilliant at this, I think back to things you're naturally good at, I really like the first bit.  I love meeting and helping, I love that.  But I do think that I could just make more of it.  I think I just need to be a bit more strategic about it.  So, maybe I'll try to create my own sort of Squiggly Career CRM system Rolodex, the modern-day Rolodex!  And then, I'll share some kind of prototype that I create and see if it's useful for other people too.

Sarah Ellis: Should I just summarise the five ideas we've got so everybody's got those?

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: So, idea number one was, be memorable; idea two was joining the dots; idea three was spotting the opportunity and those ten ideas for gives to get you started; number four was the fast follow-up; and number five was to stay in touch.

Helen Tupper: And we've covered quite a lot today, so don't forget to download the PodSheet, because it will all be summarised on there.  There'll also be some sort of coach-yourself questions to help you think about how does this relate to where I'm at right now, and there'll be some extra resources for you to read, watch and listen to which will help you to go a bit deeper as well.

Sarah Ellis: But that's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening and we're back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.