Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:37: Idea for action 1: connect with what someone cares about
00:03:19: Idea for action 2: consider your listening vs talking ratio
00:05:31: Useful resource
00:06:23: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Skill number 5 is influencing, and I think this can feel like one of those mysterious magical skills.

Helen Tupper: Like a grammar test.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  You know people might get that feedback, "Oh, you need to improve your influence" and you just think, "Well how do I do this?"  So, I do think this feels like a hard one so we want to try and make it really practical for everybody.  But why does it matter?  So, why does it matter to be able to influence other people in your Squiggly Career?  Well, I think often we are trying to get people on board, we are trying to persuade people that our recommendations or our suggestions are worth listening to.  When you influence people, they're probably more likely to listen to you.  We were also discussing, when we were preparing for this, because we do prepare for them, is that when you are good at influencing, you gain lots of trust.  I think that makes your life easier.  You know when people are like, "Okay, well I trust that person they're going to go away and do what they say they're going to do", and I think that influence sort of buys you other things along the way.

Helen Tupper: Do you try and influence me?

Sarah Ellis: Do I try and influence you?  It's a good question.  No, I don't think I do. 

Helen Tupper: I definitely try and influence you! 

Sarah Ellis: I know you do.  I don't think I do, but you do.  But then you're so transparent about it that I know you're doing it!

Helen Tupper: "I'm influencing you!"  That's not my advice, by the way.  Like, "I'm influencing you now!" 

Sarah Ellis: I just see you thinking, "Well, I don't agree, and I want Sarah to do something different, so how can I make that happen?" and I think we know each other too well.  I think we've gone beyond influence, I think that's our problem.  So, if it's not me, well maybe me, I don't know, me or someone else, how can you help someone influence?

Helen Tupper: The way that my advice for this, is that you want to connect with what someone cares about.  So, I don't think influencing is just sort of telling you what I want you to do, and if I say it more times it's more likely to happen, or if I say it louder it's more likely to happen.  I think in order to influence someone, you have to take the thing that you want.  So, let's say I want to work on a particular project, or something like that, and I have to think, "Well, what's in it for you, what is it you care about?"  So, maybe you care about the performance of your team.  Maybe, and I've done this before with a new manager, they care about making a quick impact, right?  You've got a new manager in your team, so there's an outcome you want and there's something that you know that they want, and if you can connect the two things together, you are more likely to influence them in terms of the thing that you're looking for.  And I've honestly done this so much. 

I think the thing you have to do first is you have to spend a bit of time working out what people care about.  For this to be genuine, I can't go, "Oh, in that last meeting, you said this".  I think you have to really think about, "That's a person that I want to influence, what do I know about them, what conversations am I already having with them where I'm collecting some of the stuff that they care about?"  And then, once you've got that insight, you can then attach that onto the outcome that you're looking for.  So, it does take a little bit of time, does take a little bit of observation, I think it takes a bit of curiosity of an individual.  But once you've got that insight, you can connect it to get the impact. 

Sarah Ellis: I do think you're very good at it, given I'm sitting here in front of cameras.

Helen Tupper: That is true!

Sarah Ellis: As someone who doesn't like sitting in front of cameras. 

Helen Tupper: Oh my gosh, that is so true!

Sarah Ellis: I love being on a stage, but I don't like having a camera in front of me, and you've spent a long time influencing me that this is worth it.  So, people had better be watching these podcasts. 

Helen Tupper: Give us some feedback to reinforce us, everybody! 

Sarah Ellis: So, mine is a slightly different idea for action, and that is to consider your listening versus talking ratio when you want to influence.  And I think sometimes we make the mistake of thinking influence looks like talking, "I need to tell you what I want and what I want you to believe".  And I've found over time that for the people that I want to influence, where I think maybe they're the hardest to influence, the more I listen, the more likely I am to influence that person.  And I wonder whether that's because, connecting to your point, then I understand what they care about, and then I'm basically being curious.  So, I think I used to very much have the perspective of like, "Well, this is what I need to say", so almost like, I was so determined to get my words out or to share the thing, and often because I cared about it, I didn't really want to have a conversation.  I was like, "No, this is what I want you to do, so I need to tell you what that thing is". 

Whereas actually, it's almost a slower approach.  If you start to realise, "Do you know what, this person isn't on board", you can almost stop and change direction.  You go, "Oh, okay.  So, I'm hearing that this is important to you.  Tell me a bit more about how that works, or if that doesn't feel right, what would feel more useful for you?"  And I think that is also curiosity in action.  And so, anytime now I'm having a conversation with someone where I think I'm not getting nods, because most people nod along, particularly on points that work for them, they're like, "Oh, yeah, I get that", or you see positive signs of people coming on board, if I'm not getting that, then I won't just persevere.  I think I'll go, "Oh no, I'm going to change tack.  I'm going to stop talking, I'm going to start listening more".  And also I've let go of this idea of, you always have to influence in that moment.  And so, probably harder to influence people, as you were saying, it's never an overnight thing.  In one conversation, I'm probably not going to completely change somebody's mind, but I might start to nudge them.  I feel like I'm nudging people.  In the next conversation, you perhaps go a bit further, and just recognising that it's not always a sort of win-lose scenario, "Oh, I've influenced, I got a yes", or, "I influenced and I got a no. 

Helen Tupper: Nods and nudges --

Sarah Ellis: Yes, yeah!

Helen Tupper: -- are the skills that sit under influencing. 

Sarah Ellis: And if you haven't listened to Helen's interview with Connson Locke, I'd really recommend it.  I was doing some research for today and I listened back to it and just found it really useful.  And one of the things that she says that struck me as particularly useful, and one of those, "I wish I'd thought of this sooner in my career", like I wish I'd known this earlier, is be really clear about what are you trying to influence.  Are you trying to influence a process or are you trying to influence an outcome?  So, almost an outcome would be a recommendation you've got in mind like, "I think we should do project X"; whereas a process might be, "Well actually, I want to influence who we get involved in this project, I want to influence how we approach this project", and I think that's a more nuanced and interesting way of thinking about influence, and I think it's helpful.

Helen Tupper: It's a bit less win-lose.

Sarah Ellis: Yes.

Helen Tupper: You know that, "I haven't got what I wanted at the end, I've lost".  But actually, if you're trying to do the process, it's a longer game I think actually, you're likely to win more next time.  So, that is the end of today's skill and we'll be back tomorrow for our next skill, which is about strategic thinking. 

Sarah Ellis: So, thanks so much for listening and bye for now.