Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:48: Idea for action 1: get out of your head and into theirs
00:03:13: Idea for action 2: choose the best representative words
00:05:19: Useful resources
00:06:13: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: So, we're on to skill number 3, which is presenting.  Why does presenting matter in a Squiggly Career?  Well, I think we all have to present in some way, shape or form through the work that we do.  And often, we make the mistake of thinking presenting is like a jazz hands moment --

Helen Tupper: TED Talk!

Sarah Ellis: A TED talk, or we think presenting and we think a stage or lots of people looking at us.  I also think it's a really common confidence gremlin for people, this idea of, "People are listening to me, and are they judging me, are they comparing me to other people?"  So, I think we tie ourselves up in lots of knots around presenting.  And so, I think we've got to make it a bit more low-key and a bit more informal, and just figure out how to do this in a way that works for us because when we do, I think it increases our impact.  I think we can share our ideas, I think we influence better because people listen to us, but we definitely have to start by letting go of this idea that there is a perfect way of presenting, because it's just not a thing and some of my favourite presenters, they're not polished or shiny or perfect, they're just compelling and they're interesting.  And what you feel like from watching people who are very good presenters is, they're definitely being themselves.  They're probably practised, it doesn't mean they're not trying hard, but they are doing it in their own way, and I think that's sort of the first message to remind yourself of. 

Helen Tupper: And you can always get feedback, like it's to that point around we're all presenting works in progress.  But unless you do the presentation, you can't get the feedback, so you do have to do a bit of it to get better at it.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah so how are you going to do that?  What's your idea for action?  If people are thinking, "Right, I kind of buy that, but I have to present in a team meeting", or even just to maybe one or two people, what could help you get better at presenting? 

Helen Tupper: So, one of the things that really helped me in moments where I was particularly nervous, so we do loads of presenting and some of the moments I'm fine with, and some of them I do feel more nervous because the audience, I always find presenting to your peers --

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's the worst.

Helen Tupper: -- way harder, like people you know.

Sarah Ellis: Or, people I've worked for before.  So, you know like a previous boss is like, "Oh, come and talk about career development", and you're like, "Oh, I hope I do a good job". 

Helen Tupper: I know.  Or I'm like, "Are you judging me?" all that kind of stuff.  Yeah, all that kind of mantra in your head, not helpful.  So, somebody said to me, I was doing a presentation and I had that feeling of like, "Who am I to stand in front of these people?"  And it was almost like I was so in my own head, that it was distracting me from what I was trying to say to the people.  And someone just said, like, took me to one side and they were like, "Get out of your head and get into theirs.  Stop thinking about you in this situation and think about how you can be useful in this situation".  And it really made me think, "What am I sharing today that's going to be useful?  How could I be most useful to the people that are in this room?  And it was quite blunt feedback.  It's the sort of feedback you would give me.  It's the feedback that sometimes it's quite hard to hear because it's quite blunt, but it's really, really helpful. 

I was like, do you know what?  I am too, in my own head, I am thinking about the me in this situation way too much, and what I should be thinking about, "What is the most useful thing that I can say for these people that are here, because their time is valuable; and what's the most useful way I can say it?"  And getting into their head and out of mine, it just shifts the focus in a way that I find really helpful. 

Sarah Ellis: My idea for action is to choose the words that best represent your presenting style.  So, be really intentional about probably only two words that you would want people to say about you if they've been in the room or the Zoom.  So, if you do ask for fast feedback, what do you want people to say?  So, do you want to be calm and expert?  Do you want to be optimistic and caring?

Helen Tupper: What are your words?

Sarah Ellis: I always have optimistic or sort of enthusiastic, sometimes I have enthusiastic.  So, enthusiastic or optimistic, and that I care. 

Helen Tupper: Okay. 

Sarah Ellis: I want people to feel like I care about the thing that I'm talking about, so they're left in no doubt that it matters to me.  Sometimes, I do slightly shift the word maybe based on who I'm presenting to and the audience.  So, a few times where we've had to do things for, like, Radio 4 where I always think, "Oh, everyone listening is smarter than me", and I will perhaps try and think, "Oh, I want to be credible".  I probably still want to be optimistic or enthusiastic and credible, perhaps more than caring in that situation.  Or, if I'm talking to a group of people where I think empathy is particularly important, I might be empathetic to that group. 

So, there are sometimes some slight shifts, but particularly when I'm nervous, to your point of, probably not all the time when I'm presenting, because we do so much presenting, but when I'm trying to really think about the impact I want to have from the words I'm going to say, I think, "Well, I can't be all things to all people.  What are the things that I already do well?"  I am enthusiastic, we're both quite smiley presenters, we're not slow and thoughtful, are we?  We don't have these massive insights, but we are enthusiastic and so just start from your strengths, but then just be intentional about one or two words.  And I gave that advice to somebody recently who was doing a big presentation that she was nervous about.  This is someone who sounded brilliant, but she got a confidence gremlin of presenting and she was a real expert in a very important topic.  And she just said it really gave her focus.  It helped her to find focus, and then she got some incredible feedback afterwards.  I was really happy for her.

Helen Tupper: That's nice, very nice.  Who can people go to, to learn more from? 

Sarah Ellis: I would recommend Viv Groskop because she has interviewed loads of really interesting people about how to own the room; that's the name of her podcast.  And she's got a book called that, and also another book called Happy High Status, which actually builds a little bit on this idea of bringing yourself and not needing to have jazz hands, unless actually you want to have jazz hands, Helen!  And so, I think listening to all the different people that she discusses, like style and presenting and presence and gravitas, you definitely get this sense of, "This is personal".  So, you let go of the idea of, there's a perfect way to present, just by hearing everyone from, you know, the lady, someone who's worked in the White House to like a CEO describing what they do.  And I think you start to create your own playbook for, "Well, how do I present in a way that works for me?"  And she's got a great style and it's a nice mix of kind of practical and inspiring, so I think our listeners will enjoy that. 

Helen Tupper: So, that is the end of today's skill and we're back tomorrow with our next skill, which is all about coaching yourself. 

Sarah Ellis: So, thanks so much for listening and we're back with you again soon