Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:23: Sponsor vs sponsorship
00:04:19: Some sponsorship examples
00:07:50: A 4-part process to getting sponsorship …
00:08:10: … part 1: spotting a sponsor
00:14:41: … part 2: support a sponsor
00:21:10: … part 3: get sponsored
00:30:29: … part 4: being a sponsor of others
00:31:24: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work and your career, and we hope we share some ideas and some tools that just help you navigate all of this squiggliness with that bit more confidence, clarity and control. 

Helen Tupper: And all of our episodes come with lots of extra resources to help you learn, things like our PodSheets, which are one-page summaries that you can get from our website, amazingif.com; PodMail, which pulls all of our resources together and you get it first if you sign up; and also PodPlus, which is a weekly conversation with either Sarah or myself, or sometimes both of us.  We haven't done PodPlus together for a while but when we do, it's fun.  But that is all free and it's there to help you.  You can find everything either in the show notes or on our website amazingif.com. 

So today, we are talking about how to get a sponsor.  And the reason we're talking about this is that we know that it is both a role and a relationship that you can have with somebody that can really help your career.  And we talk about it a lot in the sessions we run for people on how to build career communities, and it's often the one that I see people are, I mean sometimes starting from scratch on.  They're like, "Oh, I've not even thought about this sponsorship thing.  How do I do that?"  And so, that's what we're going to cover today, we're going to cover what does it mean to have a sponsor or to get sponsorship, which is slightly broader, and then we're going to talk about how you can make it happen. 

So, let's just start with, what is a sponsor?  So, as an individual, so I guess this is a capital S, Sponsor, that is somebody who has got access and influence over an area you're interested in, and who is prepared to advocate for you.  So, with that definition, this is kind of very individual when we're thinking about that.  What is sponsorship?  I think this doesn't have to be a person who's doing this for the entirety of your career.  This is a relationship with someone where they're still advocating for you, but perhaps it's in a smaller way, perhaps it's something that can happen more frequently, perhaps it feels a bit less formal.  So, the two things are valuable, but we do want to draw this distinction between a Sponsor and sponsorship. 

Sarah Ellis: And I think when you think about sponsors and sponsorships, sometimes it can fall into the category of a should, like, "Oh, I should have one of these because I've heard people talk about it".  Or, sometimes companies have programmes around mentorship and sponsorship, don't they?  So often, I feel like this is like one of those, "Well, I wish I had one but I don't quite understand what it is and I certainly don't know how to make it happen".  So, it can feel like one of those elusive career things of the haves and the have-nots.  And I think it is worth saying that even though both Helen and I have really benefited from both sponsors and sponsorship, I never label anyone in that way.  I think it is just more about what these people, what these relationships can bring to you that perhaps is unique to them. 

When I think about people who have sponsored me in my career, certainly at different moments, I do think, as Helen said, these sponsors can kind of come and go, or maybe some of these sponsors have lasted, it's often where they can see things that you can't see, they can spot opportunities or create connections that you wouldn't be able to do for yourself.  So, I think that's one of the really valuable things about sponsors, is they sort of bring this otherness and this newness that would be very hard to create individually by yourself, and then they're really generous with that.  So, they're on your side, they want to support you, they want to see you succeed.  And then they sort of have that, I feel like they've got that in the back of their mind, and then they're like, "Oh, that person would be good for them to meet, or that opportunity would be a really good fit", and then they don't just think, they also do. 

So, I think advocacy is an act, isn't it?  It's an action, because you can easily sit in a meeting and think, "Oh, that project, I can imagine Helen being interested in that".  But unless you actually say something, unless you do something with that, that kind of value isn't realised. 

Helen Tupper: I also think there's some element of vulnerability, I think, for the sponsor because what they are doing is they're recommending you, they're endorsing you, and if you don't deliver on that, it doesn't make them look good, their reputation. 

Sarah Ellis: It's their reputation, isn't it? 

Helen Tupper: By recommending you, they're sort of attaching you to their reputation.  I just want to make it really real for people with a couple of examples.  If I think about some specific sponsorship situations I've been in recently, there's an amazing woman called Aviva Wittenberg-Cox, who I would definitely recommend people follow on LinkedIn.  She does an awful lot on gender and generational diversity in the workplace, a great podcast called 4-Quarter Lives.  But she recently sponsored us, and me specifically, to speak at an event in Paris for the OECD.  And to the point of access and influence over areas you're interested in, I did not have access and influence over that community, I didn't have any existing relationships, I hadn't spoken in that forum before.  But she recommended us and our work to create that opportunity for us, and it was brilliant.  The extra win was I saw her on the train on the way, so I got a little extra chat. 

Sarah Ellis: And I had a glass of champagne, if I remember rightly, from the photo!  It was nice, wasn't it?!

Helen Tupper: It was really nice!  But the other one would be one that happens regularly I think for us, is what we call our kind of Squiggly Sponsors.  And so, these are people, you might be one of them listening today, who take us into their organisations and are saying, "Oh, I think the work that Sarah and Helen do could be useful for our organisation", and they recommend us.  And again, that has led to so many different opportunities in companies that we wouldn't have had without that level of sponsorship.  So, it's a very real and valuable thing that we can all benefit from. 

Sarah Ellis: And this week, I've actually had a very specific example of sponsorship in that I've been applying for an award, and as part of that award -- which by the way, we have a very bad track record of winning awards, but I'm persevering -- I did start to question, I was like, "Oh, we're doing another award that we're probably not going to win, and I'm asking people for sponsorship as part of it".  And so, I had to include recommendations in the award entry, and so approach specific people and basically say, "Can you please write a couple of lines about the impact that we had?  Can you advocate for what we do at Amazing If and Squiggly Careers, in your own words and in your own way?"  And it's an interesting process to go through.  And I actually think you could do this without necessarily having to enter the award, but almost if you were imagining now, "Okay, well, who are the three people that I would ask to recommend me?  How confident do I feel asking them?  And what do I think they might say?  And do I think they could be specific about me, what makes me brilliant, what makes me stand out?" 

Actually, some of the people that I went to were obvious people, so people I know really well, we've done a lot of work with their organisations.  So I was like, "Okay, I can second-guess what they might say and I know they'll really want to support us".  But a couple of people I went to were maybe less obvious, maybe people we've not done quite as much work with, but it was them as individuals.  I knew that, that point around generosity, I knew that they would want to see Amazing If and Squiggly Careers do well.  Almost individually, I have seen that advocacy before, not only just for us but for other people as well.  I think some people do have that in their DNA, they want to help other people to succeed.  And so, a couple of people I actually didn't know quite as well, but I was right in that they came back and they were like, "Absolutely, I'm so glad you asked me, I feel privileged to be asked", and they were just enjoying the process.  And then that meant I also got a range of sponsorship, and actually people saying slightly different things, and some things that surprised me or that I hadn't known for myself.  So, that's why I was like, it's always interesting to think about a range of sponsorship as well.

Helen Tupper: So, we have got four-part process to help you get a sponsor and get valuable sponsorship that can help you with your career.  So, we'll go through each part in turn and then don't forget that this is all summarised in the PodSheet.  So, if you want to work through it all and reflect on who might be in different boxes and what you might do first, then you can fill out the PodSheet to help you get started. 

Part one is about spotting a sponsor.  There's a couple of things that are important here.  So, first of all, if you go back to that definition at the start, that a sponsor is someone who's got access and influence over an area you're interested in, you kind of need to know what areas you are interested in.  So, for Sarah, for example, it might be the award that she was applying for, or for me, it might be there's a particular company that I would love us to do some squiggly work with.  But you need to decide what is it that you are interested in, curious to learn more about, want to get involved in, and be really clear about that, because then you can be a little bit more directed in your efforts with sponsorship.  Once you've got those areas down, you want to write down who are three people who've got some access and influence over those areas.  So, maybe they work in a team that you'd like to learn a bit more about, maybe they're part of a community that you'd like to have greater connection to.  That's what we mean by the access and influence.  They've got an opportunity in that space that you haven't got at the moment.  And then, just because someone has access and influence doesn't actually mean that they are going to demonstrate the behaviours of a sponsor. 

So, once you've identified those people, it is worth doing a bit of a sponsor sense-check and see whether you have any evidence of sponsor-like behaviours.  So, this is things like, when you look at those people, can you see any times in which they've recognised other people in their work, so like an email, I might have written, "Oh, Sarah was amazing in this meeting today, I definitely think she should take the lead in the next one".  Now that would be an example of somebody recognising someone's impact and effort.  So, listen in meetings, look in emails, you'll be able to see some of that.  Recommendations, so literally just google the person and see what comes up.  What you might see is maybe in articles or LinkedIn posts, they might have recommended somebody else for their skill or their contribution; that's a very sponsor-like thing to do.  Or, what you might see is some kind of involvement in something outside of their role, something a bit more purposeful.  So, maybe they're connected to a charity or a community and they're contributing to that.  That's indicative that they want to work in a way that helps people beyond them.  Any of those things are a good sense-check that they're demonstrating some sponsor-like behaviours, so they're more likely to do that for you, but it's worth doing that.  Just don't just assume because they've got access and influence, they're definitely going to behave like a sponsor. 

Sarah Ellis: I think a good question to ask at this point is, "Can managers and mentors be sponsors?" and I think unfortunately the answer to this one is a little bit one of those like, "It depends".  And I also think it depends a little bit on what you're looking for.  So, what I think we don't want to do is make our development dependent on one person.  So ideally, I don't think we want our manager to also be our mentor, to also be our sponsor, and then we go, "Oh, brilliant.  I've ticked all of those boxes with this one person".  What happens if that person goes and does something different or they move to a different country, or something?  You could end up them almost feeling the gap when maybe they're not there anymore. 

I often, in my own experiences, have found that mentoring relationships have turned into sponsoring relationships over time.  So, I think first and foremost, you go to a mentor for advice.  So, if I think about a couple of people through Amazing If, maybe I approached somebody because I think they're going to give me really good advice on running a company that's growing in lots of different places and spaces.  I feel like they've done that, I just want some advice from them.  Then they get to know you.  I think it's often those people who you click and you connect with.  They're really interested in your work, that's usually a good sign of somebody who wants to go beyond one conversation.  And then straight away, I often think the people who become sponsors, they're the ones where you get the emails from and they say, "Oh, do you know this person?" or, "I saw this, I read this the other day.  Did you see it?"  That would be helpful for you, and you're like, "Oh, okay, they're going beyond mentoring in the moment". 

Actually, I had a great example of this from Cath Bishop, who's been on our podcast before.  Olympian, author of The Long Win, which is just updated, actually.  It's a really, really great book if you've not read that.  And she spotted Squiggly in the Sunday Times.  And so, straight away, I was getting WhatsApps, I was getting pictures, "Have you bought it yet?"  And then, not only was she saying, "A Squiggly spot", she was also then telling me why she thought that was important.  So, you know, "When squiggly becomes common language, that's when you know you're having a really big impact".  And she's also proactively made connections for me before that I haven't asked for.  So, I feel like Cath has gone from a bit of a connection to somebody definitely we might swap ideas, to then somebody who definitely does that sponsorship.  So, obviously people can do more than one thing at once. 

I think when you think about your manager, I think some managers are very good sponsors, and I think it's a brilliant behaviour to see.  And I think some managers are not.  So, I think we don't necessarily have to expect this from managers.  And if your manager doesn't do this for you, I think don't panic, we can find other people.  But I often think, I was thinking about my standout managers and leaders, they have all been very good at this.  You know they are talking about you when you're not in the room.  Now, you've got to give them the info and the data to be able to do that really well, which we'll talk about, but I think the relationship goes beyond the sort of the day-to-day tasks and to-dos.  It does go into, they see themselves as a manager where it is their job to support you to do all the things that you want to do in your career, and they're really proactive about that.  And to me, that is sponsorship.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I also feel like there's quite a lot of humility in their approach.

Sarah Ellis: It's not about them.

Helen Tupper: It's really not about them.  They are there, they're behaving in a way that is all about helping you, and it's a real kind of ego shift, I think, like it's all about encouraging you to be your best.  If it just helps, the way I always think about it is, mentors, their primary role is to give you advice because they've done something you want to do; with sponsors, really it's all about advocacy, so it's that kind of shift.  If you're working out, "Oh, this person's my mentor, are they becoming my sponsor?" it's that shift of a relationship that's 100% advice-based to one that is kind of moving towards a bit more advocacy, a bit more introduction, a bit more connection. 

So, part one was spot a sponsor.  Part two is support a sponsor.  Now, this is something that I really learned from an Ask the Expert episode we did a while back with Sylvia Ann Hewlett, who I think is still the person who has done the most work around sponsorships.  If you really want to dive deeper into this, we've done an episode with Sylvia.  We'll link it in the PodSheet, but you can also just look at her book.  She's got one about how to get a sponsor, and then she's got one on how to be a sponsor.  When she came on the podcast, one of the things that really stuck with me was, it's okay spotting a sponsor, but that doesn't automatically mean you get sponsored.  Actually, it's something that very often you earn.  And one of the easiest ways to start that process is to think how you can support a sponsor.

So, by this point, we've got a name, right?  We've got a name of someone who's got access and influence and we know that they've demonstrated some sponsorship behaviours.  So, what we now need to move to is think about, "Well, how could we help that person?"  And you're going to have to hold the confidence gremlins in their cage at this point because I think it's a lot of the time where people go, "Well, what have I got to give to that person?  They're super-amazing, and all this".  Hold the confidence gremlins back because we're going to think about how we can help these people.  Start with that individual, what might their problems be?  You might know what they are directly or you might have to hazard a guess, given the job that they do or where they work.  What might some of their problems be?  Or, what might some of their priorities be in terms of their work, what do you think is important to them, what sort of goals might they be going after?  And once you've got those in mind, you're going to then think about, "Okay, well, what have I got to give that could help them solve that problem or move that priority further forward for them?"  And some things to spark ideas here could be, have you got some relevant insight or experience? 

So, I remember this, when I was at E.ON, I'd moved into work in E.ON, and there was somebody, a guy called Phil, I've talked about loads on the podcast, but he had access and influence over this team called Ignite, which is an innovation team.  Always my favourite places in corporates were the innovation teams.  It wasn't a team I was in, but he was head of it, so he definitely had access and influence, and I helped him by creating some connections.  So, I didn't ask him to sponsor me to move into that team.  My first thing was, how can I help him?  I had some connections outside of the organisation from previous jobs that I did, and I kind of offered them to him, "Would it be helpful if I made that introduction?"  So, I had some experience from a different business, I had those connections.  So, those are always ways that you can be helpful.  Sometimes it might just be your time.  You could just say, "I'm really passionate about what you're working on, I'd love to help if I can.  I've got some time that I could put towards that project if that would be useful".  Sometimes just passion and time can be helpful to people, but you have to see their problems and their priorities, think what you've got to give, and then actually be proactive.  They don't know you've got it unless you reach out and offer to give some help for them. 

Sarah Ellis: I think that point about earning really resonates with me.  I do think you earn sponsorship.  I don't think it just happens, so I do think it takes time.  So, this is not a quick win, I don't think sponsorship is a quick win.  This is something where you kind of persevere, but also you never quite know how this is going to show up or where it's going to be useful.  I think you just need to trust that sponsors and sponsorship can make a really big difference because of that access and advocacy that those people have, but it's also why you want to go beyond one person.  But when I think about this, I do start with the, "What have I got to give?" question, you know, kind of people helping people with how we define networking, because this is something where I always find it a bit uncomfortable and Helen knows this, almost not starting with a gift.  I'm way happier being like, "How can I be helpful?" and I'll just keep doing that.  And if that's all that ever happens, then that's fine.  I think I do trust in that kind of career karma point. 

But as Helen was reminding me when I was like, "Oh, I feel like I've not got anything to give", a couple of people that we want to create a connection with, sometimes other people can see your gifts more clearly than you can see them for yourself.  So, if you are listening to this and thinking, "I'm not useful, what can I do?" maybe just chat to a friend or someone you trust about it and be like, "What do you think I'm good at, or what do you think I've got that could be useful for other people?"  I was actually mentoring somebody yesterday and we were going through the conversation and you could see she was a bit like, "Oh, I'm not sure if I've got anything useful".  And I was like, "But you've got a really specific skill that so many people would love, lots of charities would love this, loads of volunteer groups would love this".  And she was like, "Oh, do you think?"  I was like, "Yes, I just know that".  So, I could share that back with her, and you could see her thinking, "Oh, okay". 

We don't always give ourselves credit for our natural talents, because it's just the thing that she was good at.  So, she's a great graphic designer and I was like, "Loads of people will want your skill.  If you're prepared to give that, lots of people will want your skill".  And then, it's funny how you could see then that just opened up lots of ideas and avenues for her.  And then actually, even during that conversation, I think I actually moved from mentoring her to actually being a sponsor for her, because actually, I didn't have loads of advice for her.  She's in quite a different world to me, but what I realised by the end of the hour, I was like, "Oh, I can create some connections for you", and started to mention, I was like, "Oh, but I do know someone in this area or these areas".  And they're sort of second-degree connections, it's like someone knows someone, but I was confident I could make them happen.  And you could just see her being blown away by it.  I was like, "Oh, I can make an introduction to that person".  She was like, "You know them?" and I was like, "Oh, yeah".  And so, it was so interesting.  It's something that started off definitely with that mentoring vibe. 

By the end, I was just like, "I'm not the person to give you advice, but do you know what?  I can give you access and create connections", and almost advocate her to some people I know, and then I could sort of get out of the way.  So, I felt like I was sort of an in-the-moment sponsor, that I suspect will last like a week, because then all of these people I'm going to sort her out chatting to, they then become actually much more helpful mentors as well.  And I think that's sponsorship, because I'm going out of my way to do that for her, just because I sort of go, "Oh, that's something I've got to give, I can give my connections". 

Helen Tupper: And I think that's a good example as well, the difference between a sponsor and sponsorship.  So, you may or may not continue to do that, but you did it in that moment and you made those connections, that sponsorship in that moment; whereas the Sponsor is probably a more enduring relationship and it's slightly more connection.  Both are valuable.  Please don't think anyone is more valuable than another.  Actually, I think having lots of sponsorships is really, really healthy. 

So, the third one, so we've now spotted a sponsor, we've supported a sponsor, so we've got a bit of credit in the bank.  The third part is we're actually going to get sponsored.  Now, this person is going to make those introductions, make those recommendations, open some doors for our development we're not going to be able to do for ourselves.  In order for that to happen, we need to give sponsors something to say.  They need to know what we want, or they need to have some evidence of our impact, so that they're not just going, "Helen Tupper's a nice person", because I mean that's a nice thing to say, but it might not help me with the introduction they want to make.  And so, this really is where maybe you're going to share some stats or facts about the work. 

For example, I've actually got a mentor meeting in a couple of weeks with somebody, and it is officially like, they are officially my mentor, I've been given this as a mentor.  But I also know they have the power to be a sponsor because of their role and their access, I know they do.  But that transition from advice to advocacy will only happen if I give them something, and I need to give them some details and some data so it's not just a nice chat together.  So, I'm literally going to create a one-pager of what we're doing, what our current impact is and what are some of the things that we'd like to do, so they've got that insight about my impact but also some insight about how they could help beyond the conversation.  And I think that's not for everybody, but that's what I'm going to do for that particular situation, really clearly put it on paper. 

Sarah Ellis: I've got images of you turning up and being like, "Presentation time!"

Helen Tupper: One page; it's one page so they can forward it! 

Sarah Ellis: Okay, of course it is! 

Helen Tupper: But I do think that's a good point.  You need to make it easy.  If you want to get sponsored, you need to make it easy for them to sponsor you.  So, if I create a ten-page deck, that very important person's got to find time to read it, so I'm not going to do that.  It's going to be a simple one-pager with insights and ideas that I'd like to progress in, and I am going to ask for help.  So, I think that is the other thing that if you want to get sponsored, not only do you need to give someone the information to make that easier to do, I think you also need to make the ask like, "Do you know anyone who…?  I'd appreciate it if you could do…?"  Those are some of the things that we really need to have confidence in that moment to make that ask.  And because you've already helped that person, remember people helping people, you've already helped them by helping them with a problem of priority, so you've got some credit in the bank, and that is likely to create some reciprocity in the relationship which will make them more likely to help you in return. 

Sarah Ellis: And I think for a lot of people, where Helen and I might be slightly different now versus in our days where we actually had managers and worked for a proper company, just like now just doing our own thing and figuring out as we go, this is where I do think your managers or maybe senior people, though they don't always have to be more senior, sponsors don't always have to be more senior, but they are people with influence in your organisation; I think a common mistake that we make is that we assume because people work with us, they know how to sponsor us.  It's like, "But they're in the same meetings as us; they're in the same cross-functional project.  They have seen me at my best, so surely they're like, I don't know, when the next interesting project comes along, they will just be like, 'Oh, well I've seen Sarah, so I know she's brilliant, so I can very specifically say Sarah should do that, and this is why'". 

I think there, we are giving ourselves too much credit in other people's brains.  And it is not that those people don't care about you.  It's just that everybody has a lot going on, and they probably do think you are brilliant, and they might have seen you at your best, but we just don't want it to be a general sense of, "Oh, yeah, they're really good at what they do".  That's okay, but I think we want a more zoomed-in, more unique, more ownable version of sponsorship than that.  And so, if there are those people in your organisation, because I suspect that will be the reality for a lot of people, your managers, people in other parts of the company, who you're like, firstly, "Do they see me doing a brilliant job?  Yes.  Do I sense that sense-check they could be a sponsor?"  I would then be, almost as Helen just described, thinking, "How can I just make it really clear to them what I'd like to do more of, what I'd really appreciate their support or their help with?"

For me, that would often look like a one-to-one conversation, which I would probably position more at the start as a bit more of mentoring like, "Oh, I've been really enjoying that project, and I'm thinking about what I might do with these strengths", so I ask a question and I would position it as a one-off, "Can we just have a mentoring, career-type chat?" very low-key, informal, and so that people don't get also worried about the obligation of becoming a Mentor with a capital M, can feel really time-consuming.  A one-off chat, most people will say yes to.  And then I think you can just take it from there.  Or it might be, you might not need to have the conversations, it might just be about how you communicate information, or it might be about summarising your progress so far and just making sure you're thinking, "Are these things that then people could use when I'm not there?"

Helen Tupper: I get really confused between whether things are analogies or metaphors, so just go with me, grammar people.  But I was thinking about the idea that sponsors open a door for your development.  I think what we're trying to do here is give someone the key to open the door. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that they want to. 

Helen Tupper: They want to, they're at the door.  But I think you've got to give them something, like some inside information about you and what you do and what you want that can help them to open that door for you.  I think that's -- is that an analogy or a metaphor?  One of those. 

Sarah Ellis: Yes, it is one of those! 

Helen Tupper: One of those!  Should you wish to ever get in touch with us on this Squiggly Careers podcast, then let us know the answer to that; it's helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com!  

Sarah Ellis: I once asked, quite recently actually, I asked one of my best friends who's very good at grammar and loves it, you know, some people have a real love.  I was like, "Oh, is this a metaphor or an analogy?" and she was like, "No, it's a simile", and I was like, "Okay, now I've got a new thing to research!  I mean, I did English A-level, but I did English literature A-level because I was like, "Oh, is that just reading books?  Perfect!" 

Helen Tupper: I think I did combined; I can't even remember what I did.

Sarah Ellis: Did you?

Helen Tupper: I think I did. 

Sarah Ellis: For A-level?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: Did you?

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: That surprises me a bit! 

Helen Tupper: That's hilarious!  Why?  Because I've not got good attention to detail with my writing; why?

Sarah Ellis: No.

Helen Tupper: Oh my God, you can't leave that there.  Why is that surprising?

Sarah Ellis: Because I just imagined that you were doing, like, business. 

Helen Tupper: I did do that. 

Sarah Ellis: Economics, something else very vocational and useful. 

Helen Tupper: I did English, business and law. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  I mean, the English is the one that I'm like, I am slightly surprised by that.  Whereas I did English literature, sociology, philosophy, and geography. 

Helen Tupper: I mean, geography, well I know you so I know you did geography, but that's a little random one in there! 

Sarah Ellis: Oh, I did human, I liked human geography. 

Helen Tupper: Oh, of course you did, yeah!

Sarah Ellis: I don't care about the weather, but I do care about the people. 

Helen Tupper: Given communication and writing is a big part of what we do, and maybe English isn't such a part of it…!  Just one thing before we go on to part four with the getting sponsored, I do think it is also important that you show gratitude.  Don't let there be a sponsorship black hole.  So, sometimes Sarah and I will be sponsored by people and we don't even really know it's happened until it sort of comes back to you.  That's the thing with sponsorships.  Someone will be like, "Oh, blah, blah, blah". 

Sarah Ellis: We had it this morning, didn't we, with a charity?

Helen Tupper: Yes.

Sarah Ellis: So, we had a charity get in touch with us and I was like, "Great", and then we know that the reason that charity got in touch with us was because another charity sponsored us and sort of recommended us.  So then, my next question was, "Do we know who in that original charity was the recommender?" because actually I'd really like to go back and say thank you to them.

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: And that's that point, isn't it, like we could just go, "Okay, that's nice", or we could go back to them and be like, "Oh, we know that, we really appreciate it, that makes a difference".  Because obviously if we do that, what are they more likely to do?

Helen Tupper: Do it again.

Sarah Ellis: Do it again.  So, I always do think that, I always want to dive a little bit deeper when I do hear, you know, often people will talk about, "Oh, someone recommended you", and I sort of go, "Okay, who; who was that someone?" because I know that that's that reputation point.  I don't think it is a small thing to recommend an individual or an organisation because you are really putting yourself on the line, and when we do it, because we recommend some people for lots of our clients, I'm only recommending those people I'm like, "They're incredible.  I've got so much trust in them", and I feel like they've worked really hard to earn that.  And so, if someone else is doing that for us, I definitely want to say thank you.

Helen Tupper: I've actually got a flip side to this, which is where somebody recommended somebody to me it didn't turn out.

Sarah Ellis: Didn't work out?

Helen Tupper: No, really bad, really, really bad!

Sarah Ellis: Oh, tense!

Helen Tupper: Really, really bad, like block-on-LinkedIn bad.  And so, then I got back in touch with the person, who was very senior, and said, "Look, I just want you to know that this has happened", because I thought, I know that they wouldn't want to be associated with the behaviour that I had seen.  And so, I went back to the person.

Sarah Ellis: What did they say? 

Helen Tupper: Oh, they were really grateful.  They said, "I'm really surprised, I'm really sorry".  And I was like, "Oh, you don't have to apologise to me, it's not that.  It was more, I just wanted you to be aware.  You might want to connect with the individual, or I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm just conscious that you recommended it".  So, yeah, maybe it goes the other way as well. 

Sarah Ellis: I mean, we need to hear more about that story when the podcast is finished. 

Helen Tupper: No, we don't!

Sarah Ellis: I need to hear more about that story!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, that was a me and Sarah "we", not the many thousands of people that listen to this episode!

Sarah Ellis: Part four?

Helen Tupper: Part four.  So, this is a final one.  It might sound like a small one, but I think it's actually quite important.  So, the part four is about being a sponsor of others.  So, everything at the moment, we've talked about you and your career and you getting sponsored, but I actually think that it's really important to think about how can you sponsor other people, because it's not only quite a nice thing to do and probably creates advocacy back to you when people do that, but also it means you get a bit closer to, "What do I need to sponsor this person in order to be an advocate?  What is most useful?"  And I think the more you understand that, the better you are when you make those asks of other people.  So, it is nice to do, it's useful to do, you'll be accelerating other people's development, but it would also mean that it's easier for you to go and get the advocacy. 

So, I think this almost becomes a bit of a sponsorship cycle, I think.  You spot the sponsor, you support the sponsor, you get sponsored and then you give sponsorship and you use that insight from giving to go and spot a new sponsor and do it even better next time. 

Sarah Ellis: So, just to summarise those four parts, part one: spot those sponsors; part two: support your sponsors; part three: get sponsored; and part four: be a sponsor of other people too.  And so, I hope by exploring sponsors and sponsorship today, we've really helped to make it practical, it feels like something you can take action on.  But if you're still feeling stuck or if you've got any other questions for us on sponsorship, because I do think this is a big topic, you can email us at any time.  Or if you've got ideas of things you'd like us to cover in the future, we're helenandsarah@amazingif.com.  And don't forget, we will include links to useful articles or other podcasts as part of the show notes. 

I've actually recently read a couple of really good articles on sponsorship from Herminia Ibarra, who is a professor at London Business School, and who I interviewed last week because she is going to be an Ask the Expert episode, probably in about six or seven weeks' time.  Really good episode coming up, you know, when just someone really knows their stuff.  And then everything I asked, she just straight away went to, "This is the answer", and it was practical and useful.  And she'd asked that good question at the start like, "What's useful for your listeners?"  So, I just said, "Keep it practical, something everyone can do something with", and she listened and met that brief.  And you know when you just finish and you're like, "Yes, great, we should all do these things and she's right, and she's done the research to prove that she's right", and she is concise, and she communicates with a lot of clarity. 

Helen Tupper: Well, we've got a few Ask the Experts recently.  So, we've got the episode with David Allen, I've got the Cal Newport, you've got Herminia Ibarra.  So, what I might do on social, so followers on social, is I might, in a couple of weeks' time when they're all out, do a little bit of a cluster so that if you want to deep-dive into some experts that we have spent time with and maybe you've missed some of those episodes, we'll maybe do a little post that just makes it easier for you to find that expert insight.  So, follow us on social @amazingif, either on LinkedIn or Instagram and we'll do that in the future when all those episodes are out. 

Sarah Ellis: That's everything for this week.  Thank you so much for listening as always.  We appreciate all of your sponsorship of the Squiggly Careers podcast, and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now. 

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.