Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:03:15: Competitive advantage isn't about competing
00:04:30: Five ways to create your own competitive advantage…
00:04:42: … 1: acceleration opportunities
00:09:11: … 1(a): a watch-out
00:09:52: … 2: continual improvement habits
00:10:19: … 2(a): always get feedback
00:11:15: … 2(b): create your own operating system
00:14:02: … 2(c): take a coaching approach to your career
00:15:31: … 3: sponsorship
00:17:02: … 3(a): managers or mentors
00:19:57: … 4: be known for something outside your career
00:21:53: … 4(a): a watch-out
00:25:36: … 5: known what's needed
00:34:11: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Each week we talk about a different topic to do with work, and we hope we help you with some ideas and some actions to support you to navigate that Squiggly Career with a bit more clarity, confidence and control. 

Helen Tupper: And if this is the first time that you are listening to the Squiggly Careers podcast, you've joined the party late, but never too late.  I think this is episode 397, Sarah, I think.

Sarah Ellis: You sound massively unsure about that.

Helen Tupper: I think it is.  I'm adding up all the PodSheets in my head that I've done, which means that I think you've actually started listening to this podcast at a very exciting time, because we're about to hit the 400-episode milestone, which means --

Sarah Ellis: Is that exciting?

Helen Tupper: Yes, let me tell you why it's exciting, Sarah. 

Sarah Ellis: Tell me why; it sounds very arbitrary to me. 

Helen Tupper: No, it is not arbitrary.  It's because we will create a new Squiggly Careers PodBook. 

Sarah Ellis: Oh, exciting! 

Helen Tupper: That's exciting, it is exciting.  Everybody, for every episode, we produce a PodSheet, which is a one-page downloadable summary, which I have talked to loads of people who use that now in their teams at work.  And when we get to a centennial, is that the right thing to say; basically, every 100 episodes, we create a PodBook, where we put the last 100 sheets basically all together and it just makes it easier for you to, I think, use those tools together as a team or to reflect on your own.  So, episode 400 will release the PodBook.  So, to make sure you get that, sign up for PodMail.  If you go to our website, amazingif.com and you go to the podcast page, just scroll down a bit, you'll see you can sign up for PodMail, and you'll be one of the first people to find out about the PodBook. 

Sarah Ellis: And this week our topic is, what gives you career competitive advantage?  It sounds quite serious doesn't it, the idea of having competitive advantage? 

Helen Tupper: Tell me!

Sarah Ellis: Well, I don't know, we don't know whether we're right or not, but we've tried to ask ourselves that question.  I think it's perhaps more of a question than it is a statement.  So, what does give your career competitive advantage?  It's a question that Helen and I have asked ourselves and really thought about the people where we feel like they are navigating that Squiggly Career sort of in a way that works for them.  They're successful by their own definition of what that success looks like.  So, this doesn't always mean that they are in super-serious-sounding jobs or got millions of people working for them, but they are definitely people who feel fulfilled, motivated and that their work is meaningful.  So, they would get to a Friday and think, "My time at work is well spent", and I think that's because they've got that career competitive advantage.  They feel like their work is work that they want to do, and they probably are ambitious to do even more of it. 

Helen Tupper: And I think maybe I've got a slightly different definition, because in my mind, some of the people that I think of that have got career competitive advantage, they're also people that cut through and they are people that create opportunities.  They're always people who seem to just access more stuff.  You're like, "Oh, that's interesting that they're doing that now", or, "Oh, wow, yeah, of course that person would be doing that".  But that's because of their, well, we'll find out what it is because of, but they always seem to have that, like cut through and creating more opportunities, when I think of those people. 

Sarah Ellis: Well, it's a tough one, isn't it, with Squiggly Careers, because we definitely want to get away from this sense of comparison.  And actually, the problem with using competitive advantage, perhaps even as a phrase, is when you compete, there is this sense of, "Well, if I win, then you lose".  But I don't think we're trying to talk about that today.  I don't think we're talking about competing against other people.  I think it's almost like, are you doing the things that you want to be able to do?  Are you cutting through in your own career?  And we're not worrying too much about what other people are doing or what that might look like, because cutting through in your career, I guess, will look and feel different for all of us, because careers are now so individual.  So this is not, "How do I win and be better and compete versus other people". 

I have definitely had examples and been in organisations where it has felt more like that, that you were competing with your peers.  And I've been part of programmes, learning programmes that almost set you up in that way; I think we probably both have.  And that's never great because it just feels like, "Oh, but does that mean that one person is worth more than somebody else or that one person is better because they're in a different position in the hierarchy or they've got a different title?"  So, I think there's a risk here that you could go back to ladder-like thinking.  But when we've asked ourselves the question, we've come up with five different areas that we hope would just really help you to succeed and create your own competitive advantage.  So, hopefully that feels like a good compromise.

Helen Tupper: So, the first idea is all about acceleration opportunities.  So, we think that the people that create advantage for their career are the people who get involved in things which means they move their career forward faster.  And we've got a couple of different ways that we have seen that people do that.  So, the first thing is that people who create these acceleration opportunities are very good at spotting high-profile problems and high-status situations, and they put their hand up and get involved in them.  So, high-profile problems could be a really important project that might be stalling or something that budgets have been cut and everybody's having a bit of a panic and a grumble about it, but they're like, "Well, I'm going to turn that problem into an opportunity effectively for me.  I'm going to be the person that helps this team move forward". 

I've had one of these definitely in my career, and I didn't even fix the problem.  I didn't fix the problem, but what I did do is, I mean, I led a team of people that did.  It wasn't me that solved it.  The reason that I stood out was because I leaned into that problem when other people I think were going, "No, thank you".  And I was like, "Right, I know people, I can pull people together, I can make sure I can get the smartest people in the room to get to a solution".  But I wasn't the person who was the brainiest or the smartest or who came up with the ideas, but I got involved in that problem and I was seen in a very positive way because of it. 

The other one, maybe more positive, is the high-status situations, so like big events, things that important people in your organisation are interested in.  It might be a new project, it could be a new product, it could be an event or something that's strategically important to the organisation.  But when you spot those things and get involved in them, even you don't have to be the person that leads them, just say, "I'd love to get involved in this, I'm really passionate about this, I want to help".  You can be part of the support team, but the fact that you're involved in those high-status situations can also accelerate your opportunities and gets you connected to more people that are involved in them as well. 

Sarah Ellis: And a couple of other ideas around acceleration opportunities.  Say yes to something you've not done before, because that will just definitely accelerate your progress and your growth.  It will show really good things like learning agility, so your ability to apply what you know so far to something you've not done before.  And both of these actually that Helen and I have just described definitely take bravery, because it often feels like you do have to take a deep breath, because they're quite high stakes, because you don't know if you're going to succeed.  But probably what you do know is that you're going to learn.  So, I think your filter ends up becoming learning versus, "Well, do I know that I can definitely do this?"  And that's our final point around acceleration, is we think people who are very good at this do what we describe as look-ahead learning.  So, their learning is not only about what they're doing today, but they also look forward and think, "Well, what might I need to know or

might I need to learn for where I want to go, for what feels increasingly important in my organisation?" 

I actually really remember somebody I worked with who could have been promoted and actually chose not to go for a promotion in their area, but actually to do a sideways move, because I think she was actually really smart and she was doing some look-ahead learning, and this is when lots of digital things were becoming very important.  And so actually she moved into a digital area, which I think was a really brave move.  So, she turned down the obvious move and went, "I'm going to do something where actually, this is all about learning, because I can see that actually all things digital and technology are only going to become more important".  And of course, she was absolutely right.  And so, it's sometimes that thing of, it might feel like you're not doing what you should do, or perhaps what other people expect you to do, but you're going, "Yeah, but I know this is going to accelerate my career.  I might not realise it all in the next six months, but actually in 18 months' time, I'm going to be in an absolutely incredible position to do even more of the things that matter to me. 

Helen Tupper: Well, I think actually, that's a lot of what drove my move to Microsoft, was a kind of look-ahead learning.  I was going into an industry that I wasn't very familiar with, but I knew that Microsoft were going to be very relevant and important to our future; and therefore, going to that organisation was a brilliant learning opportunity for me in my career.  And we still refer to and use lots of the insights and things that we got from there.  So, yeah, look-ahead learning is really powerful. 

We do have one watch-out on this though, because acceleration opportunities mean that you're going to be putting your hand up for quite a lot of new things.  So, it is important that as well as being practical about what you're saying yes to, I think you have to be really thoughtful about what you say no to as well.  You don't want to be known as the Helen-says-yes-to-everything person, because I don't think that really helps, and it also means that you're not going to necessarily have as much impact because you're going to be spreading yourself too thin.  So, just be really aware of what things you might want to say no to, to create the space, to increase your impact on the other things, and also so that you're not seen as just the yes person all the time, because that also won't help you with the competitive career advantage. 

Sarah Ellis: So, the second area that we think is useful to create career competitive advantage is having continual improvement habits.  We think these people are just always work in progress.  They always want to get better in a sort of relentless way, but where they don't tire out.  I think they've figured out like, "Oh, I always want to be better", but then they're not too hard on themselves at the same time.  So, I don't think that's an easy balance to always get right.  But the things that you would expect these people to be doing, firstly, they're always getting feedback.  So, they understand, "This is not just about me, this is also about how other people see me; what am I doing well and are even-better-ifs?"  And they see feedback as something that is frequent, that you want to do all the time and make it informal.  They'll try and do it in lots of different ways, they'll try and do it one to one; they'll try and do it in teams; they'll always be trying to improve projects, you know, "What would make this meeting that bit better?  What's one change we can make to improve?"  They're always asking those kind of questions, I think probably both of themselves and of other people, just like a relentless questioning of like, "Oh, what would 1% better look and feel like?"  As I say this, I sometimes feel like this might be me and might at times be a tiny bit annoying. 

Helen Tupper: I mean, you did say relentless, didn't you?  I just moved on from that!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you just laughed.  I could just see you on the screen laughing at my face.  So, that's the first area.  The second one, which was interesting when Helen and I were discussing this beforehand, we think these people are very good at creating their own operating system, which then they regularly update.  So, they know how they get their work done and what helps them to do that.  So, they don't try and adopt somebody else's operating system, but what they do is they're really curious about different ways to get better, "Oh, I could do time blocking, or brain breaks".  They're always collecting all of these things because they're really curious, but then they're very good at absorbing it and going, "So, what does that mean for me?"  And actually, when I talk to some people who are so good at this, people who you think often seem to have more time, but they haven't got more time because no one's got more time.  But they're also usually quite calm and they're in control. 

I think they're some of the characteristics I think I see of these people.  And I think this is because they've got this operating system in place and it's sort of tried and tested, but they are not afraid to make changes.  They're very open to going, "Okay, well that's not quite working for me.  Okay, so I'm going to try something different".  And so, this ability to always be like, "Well, am I using my time well, and am I using my time in the right way?"

Helen Tupper: I think it's very intentional rather than accidental.  So, if I think about me, sometimes I have accidental weeks, I would say, in terms of I get to the end of the week and I've just done what has automatically been provided for me to do because that's what my diary has said.  And then sometimes, like this week actually, I've been much more intentional because I looked at what I was doing and thought, "Okay, if you want to do this in a way that you're going to feel good at the end of it, there's some things that you need to do with your own operating system".  So, for example, I have meditated every morning this week. 

Sarah Ellis: Have you? 

Helen Tupper: I have, every morning.  I'm supposed to do it twice a day.  I'll be honest, I haven't done it twice a day, but I did do it every morning because I got up and I thought, "You will be able to achieve more of what you want to this week if you go into your days feeling calm and in control". 

Sarah Ellis: Did it work? 

Helen Tupper: Yes, I mean I feel like I've done quite a lot this week, I've been all right. 

Sarah Ellis: That's amazing!  I know you've done a lot but I didn't know you've meditated.  I'm like, "You've just added one more thing". 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, so I just got up and it just made me feel good because I feel like it makes me feel calm, but it makes me feel like I've achieved something that I committed to and that just sets me up quite well for the day.  But now, to Sarah's point, that's not how everyone wants to start their day by any means, but that's I think part of my operating system and particularly in peaky times, I know that that helps me.  But Sarah's point about regularly updating it, I don't do it all the time, but it's that intentionality about, "How do I make sure this week works in the way that I want it to?" and rather than just leaving that stuff to chance. 

Sarah Ellis: And then the final thing in continual improvement habits is taking a coaching approach to your own career, so this is the self-awareness point.  I think people who have got career competitive advantage have got high levels of self-awareness, and also they're always seeking and searching for more data points to increase their self-awareness, so they know, "Well, just because I feel like I know myself quite well, that doesn't mean I can't change".  You would still want to be flexible and you still want to be open.  And so, I do think these people are good at asking questions of themselves.  They'll often ask questions of other people too, but they will think, "Oh, so what was my highest energy moment today?  What did I particularly enjoy?  Oh, I seem to really find flow for that meeting or that moment; why was that?" 

So, I think there's quite a lot of why's going on, and when you ask why questions, you often do get to quite deep-rooted reflections, and I think these people are not scared of why's.  Why questions can feel quite confrontational, they can send our brain into that fight-or-flight mode, particularly if we're feeling a bit vulnerable.  I probably wouldn't ask myself a why question at the end of a tough week.  But I do think if you get used to asking them of yourselves, then actually you do accelerate your understanding of your impact, what you want to do more of.  You're just questioning, aren't you; that curious questioning?

Helen Tupper: The third area that we think is really important is sponsorship, and it's actually an area that we talk about in our sessions on Squiggly Career communities.  And I often see people attracted to the idea of sponsorship, but not quite knowing where to start.  But in terms of why this is helpful for your career advantage, is because people who do this well have other people creating opportunities for them.  So, you can invest in acceleration opportunities and you can create continual improvement habits, but you'll get even more stuff to do if you've got people advocating for you, and that's what sponsors do.  They tend to have access and influence over areas that are important to you in your development, and they advocate for you, they talk about your strengths, they talk about your abilities, they talk about your contribution in places that you might not be in or conversations you might not be part of.  They're doing that job for you and it is really powerful in terms of your advantage. 

If I think about mine and Sarah's work and the people that sponsor Squiggly for us, that gives us a huge amount of competitive advantage because we have all of our lovely listeners who might post about us on LinkedIn or talk about us in their companies, and that means that we can be in so many rooms and Zooms and conversations and presentations that we couldn't be in if it was just down to us.  So, it's really, really powerful.  We also know that it's an area that people might be like, "But how do I do it?"  So, a couple of practical thoughts on how you can find yourself some career sponsorship. 

Helen Tupper: So, we think that a good starting place is with managers or mentors.  These are people that you might already have a relationship with, it might feel easier to get a mentor and you've probably, for a lot of us, already got a manager.  So, they know you and know what you do in certain ways, and what we want to do is turn that relationship into one that involves advocacy, involves them talking about what you do well.  They are only able to do that if you give them evidence about your impact.  So, that is where you might share some stats and facts about the work that you're doing.  So, I might say, "Oh, one of the things that we're really looking to do is to increase the reach of our Squiggly Careers podcast.  We've already got over 4 million downloads, we've already got 400 PodSheets, we already had 5,000 people who sprinted with us in the last year, but we're really passionate about helping more people and I'd love to get your impact on it". 

Having shared those stats with somebody, and I'd probably do it in a slightly more -- I'd probably talk around it a little bit more!  I probably wouldn't be like, "Here's some stats I want you to share"!  But if I had more time, I'd talk about it around those points a little bit more.  But my point is, I've given somebody more evidence, "Oh, do you know anyone who does stuff on podcasts?"  "Actually, yes, Helen Tupper and Sarah Ellis have got the Squiggly Careers podcast and this is what I know about them", because we've given them that information to be able to share on our behalf.  If you don't give them that information, then you can't do it. 

Sarah Ellis: And I think the other thing to remember, whether it's a manager, a mentor, or somebody else that you're talking to, who you're hoping might give you some sponsorship, I don't think it's really something you ask for, I do think it is something you earn, is that we do need to repeat and remind people about not only the evidence of your impact, as Helen just described, but also I think just what you want to do more of.  I think don't make the mistake of second-guessing or assuming that people know that, because everyone has so much going on.  You know that because you're super-close to it and you are you, but you have to practise, I think, saying out loud what you're looking for, the support you need, the help you're looking for, the opportunities you're keeping an eye out for.  And in that moment, someone might not be able to have something immediate.  I don't think you're always expecting to say something and then straight away in return, "Oh yeah, great, I've got three people you should meet [or] three of the right opportunities", but I think by just lodging it with people, and then keep coming back to it and say, "Oh yeah, well one of the things I'm still exploring is…", which is perhaps something you talked about last time, you just never quite know when someone will come across something that's useful for you. 

So, every time that I meet somebody who I just feel has that ability to advocate for Squiggly Careers, I will try and specifically think about, "Well, what are those things I want to remind those people about?

Helen Tupper: So, the fourth idea that we think is important is that people who have got career competitive advantage are actually known for something, not just the job, their job title, but they have a talent, a skill, a behaviour that people identify with them positively.  I was trying to think about some of the people that I think have got that and people that came to my mind I was like, "Oh, well that's because they're really, really curious [or] that's because they're just that little bit provocative".  I can really identify that individual with a specific trait or talent, and that is really, really powerful, because I think it makes you unique, and people might have stories that they tell that are connected to that trait or that talent. 

The thing that really matters with this is that you decide what you want to be known for, so that you're not leaving this to chance.  Because if somebody knows you and talks about you and shares a trait or talent that you don't want to be identified with, then that's not really creating the kind of advantage that we might want for our career.  So, definitely start by deciding what is the thing that you want to be known for.  So, for example, I want to be known for helping people with their careers; that's part of what I want to be known for.  I want to be known as a positive person who creates energy in others; that's what I want to be known for. 

Once you have got that clarity, then it's important for you to think about, "Well, how do I make sure that I am using that and it is seen as much as possible in the job that I do on a day-to-day basis, but also outside of that job?"  So, that could be in your organisation but outside of your job, like that could be an internal community or cross-functional activity.  It could also be outside of your organisation as well, because the people that create competitive advantage, they don't limit their impact to the job that they do on a day-to-day basis.  And so, making sure that these things that you want to be known for are seen, used and valued by people outside of what you do on a day-to-day basis is a really important part of it. 

Sarah Ellis: And just a small watch-out here that we often see when people have a go at this exercise, particularly in workshops, is don't be too generic.  So, when you are making that decision, as Helen described, that choice about what you do want to be known for, try and avoid those big, sometimes I describe as these meta words, "I'm just creative, I just want to be an amazing communicator", and I just think, can you ever imagine someone describing you in that way with a really specific story?  Now maybe, because there are always exceptions to the rule, but I do think most of the time it tends to be a level down from that.  So, Helen didn't just say, "Oh, I've got energy", she went beyond that.  She talked about her energy to inspire other people around career development. 

Actually, energy, there's something about that word that is quite unique.  It's not something you'd say about loads of people, it's not one of those kind of meta things, so it feels very ownable.  I'm always like, "Does this feel ownable by you?  Does it feel really reflective of who you are and how you show up?"  So, just watch out for those big words and just see if you can make them a bit more yours.  And if you're struggling with this and you just think, "I don't know, I don't know what I want to be known for", ask other people, "When do you see me at my best?"  Sometimes I think people then use helpful phrases or words that then you can borrow.  Or, you might just get some things back where you think, "Well, not that", and that's okay too, because at least you go, "Well, I know now that it's not that, so then it's something different". 

Sometimes having a blank piece of paper can feel too overwhelming in this area if it's maybe not something you've thought about loads, and so perhaps you just need to get some input from other people as a bit of a springboard to then go, "Okay, what do I do?  Do I take what people are sharing with me and then try and make it more mine; or, do I take what people are sharing with me and go, 'Well, it's not that', so therefore it's something different?"  So, that can be useful if that one feels a bit tricky. 

Helen Tupper: I was just thinking about you. 

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah?  Thank you!

Helen Tupper: Just as you were talking, just having a little daydream about Sarah!

Sarah Ellis: Just thinking about me, thanks!

Helen Tupper: Just thinking about Sarah!  But I was just thinking about words that I would use to describe you at your best and how I wonder how different --

Sarah Ellis: Is it hard to choose?

Helen Tupper: Oh, yeah, there's so many.  There's a whole encyclopaedia of what I love about Sarah Ellis!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I thought so!

Helen Tupper: There's just two words, Sarah, to be honest!

Sarah Ellis: Just two words?  Okay, great!

Helen Tupper: That's just to take it back to basics!  No, but I was thinking, would you say that about yourself and would it be useful for you to have that language?  So, what I came up with is, I think you are the strengths that I often see in you over the last 12 months.  I think you are thoughtfully challenging, and I don't think I would have said that about you, I don't know, before; it wouldn't be the first thing I'd say, but I would always say you're very thoughtful.  But I think what I see, you kind of match your thoughtfulness with challenge, and I think it's a really unique trait.  So, Sarah might have said about herself, "Oh, I would consider myself quite thoughtful".  I don't know if she would say that, but I don't know if she would have got to "thoughtfully challenging", and it's only when people maybe share their insights with you that you end up with that more unique language that you can choose to use if you want to. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's interesting.  I'll have to think about that a bit.  I don't think it's probably the top thing that I'd want to be known for, not because I think it's a bad thing, it makes me actually feel very proud of that.  I can see how that'd be useful.  So you're like, "Well, that's useful, that's not a bad thing".  I think it's probably not the thing that gives me the most energy though, so that's why I would just pause for thought.  I think I get a lot more energy from ideas and creating things.  That's probably top of my list.  But knowing that you've seen that and, as you said, that you haven't seen it before, is actually just helpful data for my development. 

Helen Tupper: You can have that. 

Sarah Ellis: Thanks.  And the final area is, as well as being known for something, which was number four, number five is know what's needed.  So, this is reading the room, or sometimes Teams/Zoom, depending on what you're using.  It's situational sensing, it's adapting enough, but without losing a sense of who you are, or pretending to be somebody that you're not, which is never a good thing.  That's why I always think it's like adapting enough.  And we think a really good way to do this, because I think this is a hard skill, often one that gets described around like leadership, "Oh, we need you to be good at judgment and situational sensing"; but a good way to get started is to ask, don't assume.  So, rather than desperately trying to read a room and you just think, "Well, how does that even happen?" if you use a quick question very early on as part of a meeting or a one-to-one or part of a project, actually if you then really listen to how people respond to that quick question, I think you get some quick clues.  You get some quick clues as to what's most important to that other person, what's on their mind at the moment, but also how are they feeling, how are they turning up, how are they showing up, and then you can adapt accordingly. 

So, Helen and I were saying, we both have slightly different questions, but I will often ask somebody, "What's most useful for us to talk about together today?"  And I meet quite a lot of people for the first time or people I perhaps don't know that well in our learning partnership, so lots of companies all across the world, and actually how people respond to that is really revealing.  So, someone might say, and I do get a real range of responses, "Oh, I'd just love to find out a bit more about Amazing If, should we just introduce ourselves?" so quite relaxed, explorative, we just want to find out.  Other people might say, "Right, we've got an event in three months' time.  I want you to talk to me very specifically about how you do a session on feedback", and actually what they really want is a summary of my key ideas and thoughts on feedback, because they want to get a feel for, does that fit with what they're trying to do?  So, they're very, very zoomed in.  So, that first response, much more zoomed out; the second response, much more zoomed in. 

Now, if I had just gone straight into that conversation, I could have started from completely the wrong point, kind of unwittingly and unknowingly, and therefore I'm less useful and I reduce my impact.  What do you ask, Helen? 

Helen Tupper: Same objective, but different question.  I often ask people how their week's going, like I did today in a meeting.  I'll just say, "Oh, how's the week going?" before we get started.  And someone will either go, "Yeah, it's fine, thanks.  So, for today…" and I'm like, "You don't want to chat.  I've got it"! 

Sarah Ellis: I think I wouldn't ask that question because I don't want to chat!  I'm like, "Yeah, let's move on". 

Helen Tupper: It's so funny!  But if I didn't know you, I'd get a very quick read of, Sarah is not the, "Oh, let's chat about a funny thing that's happened this week", that's not how I'm going to build rapport with Sarah.  There is something else that will help me to do that, but it's not, "Oh, do you like hummus as well?" or whatever random things I might say in a meeting, or whatever.  It's not the time for the random version of me.  And then sometimes people go, "Oh, my gosh, it's been amazing, I did this thing", and then suddenly you have a way to connect with them.  And then you then kind of go, "Okay, that's been brilliant, I'm so glad we chatted.  So today, these are some things that I'd had on my agenda, what's on yours?" and you can kind of go back to what the point of the meeting actually is.  But I often ask that kind of, "How's your week going?" or, "Oh, it's Monday, what are you excited about this week?" and someone would be like, "This meeting", and I'll be like, "Okay, let's focus on this meeting". 

So, I think whatever your question is, it's the point of early on in a conversation if you can ask a question that helps you to see, as Sarah said, what mood people are in and how they want to connect with you, then you can adapt to them.  We're obviously not trying to be career chameleons, you do want to be yourself, but I think there's slightly subtle ways that you can adapt that can help you to do that.  And one of the subtle ways that you can do is you can kind of match how you show up in that meeting to what they share in terms of their language.  So, if you have people that are very sort of detail- and deadline-oriented, they're talking in a conversation, they're like, "Well, by the end of the week, there are three things that we need to achieve", that gives me an insight into, "This person likes structure and clarity, because that's what helps them to feel in control".  And so I need to adapt what I'm talking about so that it gives that person what they need from me in that meeting. 

Whereas if someone else is saying -- some of their words are like, "Oh, we're sort of exploring a few different things and there's a couple of different options that we're thinking about", clearly me being too detail- and data-oriented isn't quite what they need in that moment.  They might want me to give my perspective and maybe to share some different ideas and maybe to talk about what it would take for us to prioritise some of those things.  So, just picking up on some of those words that people might say can help you to make some subtle adjustments to how you show up and really how you know what's needed.

Sarah Ellis: Do you know what I was just imagining there?  This stuff can sometimes sound a bit Machiavellian, can't they?  Imagine if everybody turns up and everyone tries to do it at the same time, and then no one goes anywhere, because you're like, "Oh, well Helen wants to build a relationship, Sarah wants to develop some ideas, somebody else wants to be efficient and have clarity", and then we're all there just trying to read the room.  You could end up with a really weird like, but then no one does anything.

Helen Tupper: Well, imagine people trying to have meetings with us, because we would both want different things, because I want to have a nice relationship with someone, so I like to find a moment of connection.

Sarah Ellis: You want to make friends.  I'm like, "I don't make friends".

Helen Tupper: But then, I do like clarity. 

Sarah Ellis: And you switch from one to the other, I would say, incredibly quickly. 

Helen Tupper: Very quickly, yes! 

Sarah Ellis: For somebody who wants to make friends with everyone, you sort of want to make friends, I would say, for five minutes, "Let's make friends for five minutes", and then actually you're incredibly like, "Well, let's now do the thing". 

Helen Tupper: Whereas you're like, you don't want to make friends, but then you don't want to close a conversation down.  So, an example of this would be the length of a meeting.  So, I go half an hour in the diary, 5 minutes to make friends, 25 minutes to talk about -- well, 20 minutes to talk about it, and then 5 minutes to get clear on who's doing what when, and I'll be very driven by, "This meeting is supposed to end at this time".  Whereas Sarah, not her intent is definitely not to make friends in a meeting, but your curiosity and your connection and your thoughtfulness, actually you would hate to end a meeting just because that's what it said in the diary, if that wasn't the right thing to do for that conversation in that moment. 

Sarah Ellis: I don't think I have ever used the word, someone used them with me today, "I have a hard stop".  I really don't. 

Helen Tupper: How have you never said that? 

Sarah Ellis: I hate that.  Well, for a start, I hate that phrase, I'm like, "That's an awful thing to say to somebody".

Helen Tupper: I literally WhatsApped that to someone this week who wanted a meeting and I was like, "I can do this time, I've got a hard stop"!

Sarah Ellis: I'm like, no, I think it's really, yeah, I'm never going to say that. 

Helen Tupper: What would be a Sarah way of saying that, "I've got another meeting at 4.00"; would you ever say that? 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I might say, "Oh, I'm afraid I've got another meeting at 4.00, so I'm going to have to go".

Helen Tupper: Okay.

Sarah Ellis: But I would even find that quite hard.  Yeah, it's just funny really, because I'm not super- nice, but for whatever reason, I do --

Helen Tupper: No, you're not, it's weird!

Sarah Ellis: No, I know!  But I do find -- I think because I'm interested and I want to give people space and I want to learn about whatever they've got to say.  But yeah, someone did say it to me, and I think I find it a bit like, "Oh, okay, is that you signalling to me that you want me to go faster, or that you want to talk about something?"  I'm a bit like, "I don't know what you want me to do with that", because I'm usually very happy to just go through an agenda.  I'll tell you what though, sometimes when you do meet with people from different cultures, we were quite a few people over in the US, I would say their approach, they've never said to me, "I've got a hard stop", but I have never had a meeting run over, because I think they are you.  I think you'd be amazing in the US.  So, they turn up and they're like --

Helen Tupper: Are you trying to get rid of me?!

Sarah Ellis: They're so enthusiastic and really encouraging for two to three minutes, really nice rapport, and then they're like, "Okay", and then they've got an agenda, and it's very directive, and I'm like, "Wow, this is so efficient, it's amazing". 

Helen Tupper: Sounds brilliant, love it!

Sarah Ellis: But it would make me laugh if you'd got different people who listened to Squiggly Careers, and then everyone came together into sort of a weird melting pot.  But I guess realistically, it never happens, it's just about being smart, right?  Do a bit of smart sensing. 

Helen Tupper: It is, it is.  I love our little end of podcast tangent.  This is being recorded at the end of the week, everybody.  Very expected tangent at the end of the week. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, can you tell this is now Friday at 5.21pm? 

Helen Tupper: So, because my job is to create clarity, everybody, let me create some clarity. 

Sarah Ellis: Go for it.

Helen Tupper: There are five ideas for action that we have talked about.  So, acceleration opportunities, create continual improvement habits, seek out some sponsors, be known for something, and also know what is needed.  And we will summarise all of that in the PodSheet so that you've got a very simple way of reflecting and referring back to it.  And don't forget, episode 400, the PodBook is coming, and so it'll be included in there for you as well. 

Sarah Ellis: But thank you so much for listening, that's everything for this week, and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now. 

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.